SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Pikachu315111]

The bigger question is why Snarl was considered so valuable it had to be kept concealed from Team Rocket (which is the justification given in-game). Like, if it was a Hyper Beam variant or something, sure.

Sometimes when you invent something you think it's more valuable than it actually is. The person who locked the TM away was probably the one who invented it. At some point Team Rocket might have raided the place where it was developed and the inventor, not wanting to see his own creation used by criminals, locked it away. Though, if Team Rocket got a hold of it and it was considered worth showing to an admin or Giovanni, they'd probably just go "oh, this sounds like a neat move, probably could give it to some grunt as a reward for a good job" and throw it into a pile of other TMs they've stolen.

I guess there's also the meta idea that, since its a TM from Unova, it has infinite use (therefore ALL of Team Rocket could have their Pokemon which can learn it know it), but that's more a meta thing and probably not what they were thinking.

And for what kicked me off on this: So why does Penny have 3M and 3F pokes from a 7/1 ratio species? Why does the raw trainer data only set the gender for 5 of her pokes? Why can't GF ever just be simple?
(Also, Eri has an all-male team, which feels kind of insulting? A bit?)

I assume Penny has a 3/3 split because of her hair. Blue/Red and all.

Eri's actually got a girl on her rematch team: her primeape!

Looking at some other teams kind of interesting how most trainers tend towards a 2/3 or 2/4 split.
Ryme actually has all male pokemon and Saguaro has all female.

Actually I want to know why Penny doesn't have an Espeon or Glaceon. Even if they didn't want to randomize her 5 other Eeveelutions, they could have made her team change what Eeveelutions she uses depending on the Starter you picked at least:

• Sprigatito/Meowscarada: Sylveon, Umbreon, Flareon, Glaceon, Espeon, Leafeon
• Fuecoco/Skeledirge: Sylveon, Umbreon, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Espeon, Flareon
• Quaxly/Quaquaval: Sylveon, Umbreon, Leafeon, Jolteon, Glaceon, Vaporeon

Then during the Academy Ace Tournament have her use another team so that you at least see all the Eeveelutions. Then when you're invited to her dorm they'll have all the Eeveelutions just hanging out.

Anyway, as for genders (btw, Glaceon would be male, Espeon would be female), as said for Penny's team it's just so there would be an even split. Actually, something else they could have done: If they planned ahead they could have made the other Star Leader's Types match with 5 of the Eeveelutions and then have Penny use those five Eeveelutions plus her ace which would represent her. But that would actually require GF to plan ahead...

Eri having all male initially and then adding a female Primeape I feel is a slight indication of her thinking. As the muscle of the group, she feels like she needs to appear tough and specializes in the Fighting-type. Her adding a female Primeape to her team in rematches could symbolize she no longer feels like she needs to put on an act (though I do wish they gave her Primeape an Eviolite so that it doesn't feel like an inferior Annihilape; actually I would have given her a Hawlucha, it would totally fit her!).

Ryme having all male I don't really have an explanation for, like if she had a mix leaning toward male I could maybe say that's cause there's more male rappers, but there's also plenty of female rappers so can't be referencing that.

Saguaro having all female (and also them being feminine Pokemon) I think says more about GF's viewpoint. Let's not beat around the bush, Saguaro is designated gay. I say "designated" because it's not outright said (and he could also just be a straight guy who is more in-touch of his femininity but come on). However he has plenty of stereotypes which one would relate to a gay man. He wears pink, teaches home economics, prefers sweet things over spicy, and his Pokemon team are feminine and all female. Now I like Saguaro enough, while he has plenty of the stereotypes attributed to him he is a rounded character and they don't make him act flamboyant. Yeah, what stereotypes they do give him they really leaned on it, but overall I would say he's a good representation of a gay character who's not afraid to show they're gay... just don't expect the game to say it.

The Scyther to Scizor evolution is a bit odd, because Scizor has the same base stat total as Scyther. Why do you think they did this?

Scizor at one point was going to have a BST of 540.

And 40 just so happen to be the same amount of points Scizor's Speed goes down from Scyther (Scizor's HP and Special stats also weren't touched).

Also, another factor to keep in mind: Let's remember that Scyther's BST in Gen I was 420. That pesky Special stat, for Scyther it was originally 55 and when they did the Special split the 55 went toward Special Attack and it gained a whopping 80 Special Defense! Which is honestly odd, Scyther doesn't look like a Pokemon who would have a decent Special Defense (I would think it would have been the same as its Special attack, 55, which would have made its BST 475).

I'm wondering if maybe all this together is the reason for the situation Scyther and its evolutions are in. Maybe they started with a Pokemon with a BST of 420, made it part Steel (which was a pretty good Type with all its resistances) & increased its Attack & Defense, but then they did the Special Split. For whatever reason they made Scyther's Special Defense 80, possibly to push it to 500 BST to keep it in-line with other Pokemon is was considered equal with, but now that resulted with what they believed at the time was an OP Pokemon. The only stat of Scizor that made sense to decrease was Speed, thus Scizor went from being a better Scyther to a slower but more bulky Scyther (which overall also made it slightly better, only real downside to Scizor was double weakness to Fire).

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/515/831/c8d.png
The more that I read the purported X/Y conceptual leak, the more I believe that it was made more so out of wish fulfilment that X and Y were actually interesting instead of being boring than anything else. Like, beings from another world showing up in ORAS and the Alolan games, differing Pokemon sizes being experimented on first with Pumpkaboo, and an imposter Professor that has its origins with imposter Oak and later being fulfilled with the A.I Professors in Scarlet and Violet lend it credence, but everything else reads like the leaker swearing every single major complaint of X/Y has an answer.

I also love the exchange about Sylveon at the bottom. "Bro, people thought Sylveon was a Flying type even without its wings".

Paging Hematite.

We had this discussion a while back.

*Reads some more past posts and comes across discussion about the personalities of Ingo & Emmet*

Incidentally I think if you see Ingo less as "Tragedy" and more just like...the drama that would also be represented by it dialog like...
gives me vibes like ingo's a drama club nerd and probably has a moleskin diary

*Looks at Legends: Arceus* ... No, no, I would say Ingo is definitely "Tragedy"...

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Been thinking about Gen 1 again in a way, and something came to mind.

I'm highlighting these two in particular, but there are probably a few other examples related to them that stick out.

But the topic I am highlighting is not really Farfetch'd and Lapras in terms of their battle capabilities, but rather certain Pokemon with respect to the concept of HMs as field moves.

HMs, as we all know, existed in the first six generations of Pokemon. They serve as field moves, cannot be erased from a Pokemon's moveset naturally, and are often gated in terms of being used as field moves by Gym Badges, the only region of the first six that didn't do so was Unova.

Gen 1 had five HM moves: Cut, Fly, Surf, Strength, and Flash. Back then, there was no Move Deleter, so when you taught an HM move to a Pokemon in the Gen 1 games, that move was effectively permanently etched into their moveset and could not be removed whatsoever.

Now why am I highlighting Lapras and Farfetch'd in particular? Because with the way they are implemented into Red and Green, one being an in-game trade and the other being a gift, they feel like they were explicitly designed to be the respective users of Cut and Surf, respectively, from a viewpoint of their uses as field moves.

Farfetch'd is obtainable right around the point of the game that you would get the HM for Cut, and from there battle wise it's a good pre-promote option, but more importantly, its design and lore aesthetic describe it using its leek like a sword to cut things, and Cut as a field move is used for cutting trees. It definitely feels like Cut was absolutely intended to be taught to Farfetch'd and that players were expected to get a Farfetch'd at this point and use it as a Cut user on the field. This is further lampshaded in future games where GSC has the Cut masters use a Farfetch'd, and even in XY where in a Kanto shout-out they have an in-game trade for Farfetch'd around the time you would get Cut.

Lapras feels similar: it definitely feels tailor-made to be the definitive user of Surf as an HM. Lore wise and design wise it's a giant Loch Ness monster but it also ferries humans on its back to transport them across the water, which is what Surf does as a field move: enable travel across the water. And you ideally, assuming you follow RBY's intended game progression, should get Lapras shortly before you go into the fifth Gym in Fuschia City where you both get the Surf HM and unlock the ability to use it as a field move. Further lampshaded by GSC where Lapras is the overworld sprite for Surf, and XY also uses Lapras as a Kanto shout-out in that you get a Lapras as a gift around the point in the game where you get Surf, and also has Lapras with a special overworld sprite for Surf should you use one for surfing on the field.

In general, these two come off as explicitly designed to represent Cut and Surf as field moves, respectively. Given the way HMs were implemented in RGBY, it feels like the developers wanted players to use Farfetch'd and Lapras specifically for the Cut and Surf HMs.

And looking at the five HMs, HMs in Gen 1 do feel like they were designed around very specific Pokemon.

Cut: Farfetch'd, as I highlighted.
Fly: You don't get any special gift flying mon for this, but given Pidgey is the original "regional bird" that is caught early and is designed to be kept for the whole game, there was definitely an expectation that players would have a Pidgeotto by the time they get Fly, as an evolved form of the Pidgey they almost certainly caught in the first few routes: Pidgey is one of those mons that developers likely wanted every player to catch in some form or another. So in this case this move is probably associated with Pidgeot, who is more or less the textbook avian bird in the Gen 1 roster. Alternatively Doduo is in the nearby routes likely as a substitute for players who didn't get Pidgey.
Surf: Lapras, as I also highlighted.
Strength: This is the one HM move that as a field move I struggle to think of a Pokemon who was designed around it. The only Pokemon who feels tailor made for Strength lore wise is Machamp, given Machamp serves as the boulder pusher in SM as a Ride mon and Strength was its signature move back then, however, Machamp is a trade evolution that evolves from Machoke, although one could argue Machoke could work too. The Machop line is not available as a gift and is a wild encounter looong before you get Strength. Arguably the Hitmons as gifts just after the fifth badge and before the sixth could fit, though that's pushing it.
Flash: Mr. Mime feels like it was at least partially intended as an in-game Flash user. You get it around the time you get Flash as an HM in an in-game trade, this checks out.

Anyway, this is just a bit of mystery and conspiracy I look at, but HMs in particular do feel like they were designed around and intended for specific Pokemon to use them despite being available for use by a wide variety of Pokemon. It's kind of interesting looking at how these moves were originally implemented in Gen 1 and the more I look at Gen 1's game design and roster this particular tendency sticks out to me.

 

[pika pal]

Lapras feels similar: it definitely feels tailor-made to be the definitive user of Surf as an HM. Lore wise and design wise it's a giant Loch Ness monster but it also ferries humans on its back to transport them across the water, which is what Surf does as a field move: enable travel across the water. And you ideally, assuming you follow RBY's intended game progression, should get Lapras shortly before you go into the fifth Gym in Fuschia City where you both get the Surf HM and unlock the ability to use it as a field move. Further lampshaded by GSC where Lapras is the overworld sprite for Surf, and XY also uses Lapras as a Kanto shout-out in that you get a Lapras as a gift around the point in the game where you get Surf, and also has Lapras with a special overworld sprite for Surf should you use one for surfing on the field.

In general, these two come off as explicitly designed to represent Cut and Surf as field moves, respectively. Given the way HMs were implemented in RGBY, it feels like the developers wanted players to use Farfetch'd and Lapras specifically for the Cut and Surf HMs.

Flash: Mr. Mime feels like it was at least partially intended as an in-game Flash user. You get it around the time you get Flash as an HM in an in-game trade, this checks out.

Anyway, this is just a bit of mystery and conspiracy I look at, but HMs in particular do feel like they were designed around and intended for specific Pokemon to use them despite being available for use by a wide variety of Pokemon. It's kind of interesting looking at how these moves were originally implemented in Gen 1 and the more I look at Gen 1's game design and roster this particular tendency sticks out to me.

So I parsed this down mostly to the two that I find the most immediately iffy for the theme and pattern. I have more to say for the Lapras scenario, though I agree with all the subsequent-gen evidence (and multimedia appearances) making Lapras the defacto Surf Ride Pokemon.

On the progression point, Sabrina and Koga are relatively similar in terms of their level curves, difficulty mostly stemming from the Pokemon types (Sabrina specializing in the overpowered-in-RBY Psychic vs Koga's Poison being relatively neutral for match-ups most players will have by then). I wouldn't say Koga is the intended 5th Gym Leader, as he and Sabrina can be done in either order, but odds are you're doing Sabrina right after Silph Co. since clearing it opens her Gym whenever you get to that. I know a lot of people who tried going to Saffron first since it opens up right after you get to Celadon, and thus is available at the same time you clear the Lavender Tower for Fuchsia (due to moving the Silph guard and getting the Pokeflute for Snorlax respectively).

I feel like there's a minor disconnect, if anything, with Koga giving your Surf but the Sabrina lead-in giving you the designated surfer. The Safari Zone is where you get the Surf HM, which seems like where they provide you a source of Surfers since Fuchsia City also hosts the Good Rod (to catch Waters besides Magikarp) and exhibits a "go catch Pokemon" area with the Safari Zone, including the Zoo out front with Dratini and Lapras (which convinced Kid me for a while I could find one in the Safari Zone water since it was a nature preserve for the endangered species like Lapras).

I think the more likely reason for Lapras's placement is if you do Koga first and then go to Saffron for your 6th badge, rather than vice versa. If you do Koga last your immediate instinct is to try out surfing, and there's a shore right next to the Gym and Pokemon Center leading to the Ocean as a path to lead you on. If you go back to landlocked Saffron, the Lapras gift is to ensure you have a Water type and indicate "you'll need this soon," and direct you back towards the surf routes from much farther away on the path you followed.

As for Mr. Mime, I'm not sure it's designed as a Flash user along this same line as the above two for other HMs, because as a Trade it calls for Abra, a Pokemon that is rather hard to catch without prep and can learn the HM as well, not to mention Drowzee on Route 11 right next to the Diglett's Cave they have to pass through to reach this. I think the more likely purpose is that Mr. Mime gives the player a quicker route to a Psychic Special attacker if they don't want to put in the effort to raise an Abra to Level 16 so it can battle for itself after one evolution, not needing babying to contribute but coming out weaker than Kadabra/Alakazam overall (albeit helped by outside EXP). The Viridian Forest Detour also puts the player back on Pewter City side of Mt. Moon, meaning they can head back to Cerulean and Rock Tunnel while passing a few encounters for Jigglypuff and Clefairy, other users of Flash if they don't have the above options

Mr. Mime's design also doesn't scream "Flash user" to me like Farfetch'd Cutting or Lapras surfing, since Mimes are based more on motions and illusions/invisible objects in the Pokemon's case. Truth be told the most fitting user seems like Pikachu (it's what Red used in Adventures for example), but it's rare and probably just coincidence since it's a heavily marketed Pokemon/mascot in general. Yellow even added Flash to a few Mons like Butterfree and Venonat (now on Route 24-25 near Cerulean), I presume so you didn't have to saddle your mascot starter with a non-damaging Field Utility move, to skip on a tricky Abra capture or hunting a rare encounter to use Flash instead.

 

[Imperial Magala]

Considering some of the earliest artwork of Lapras is it transporting the player, yeah I’ll put money on Lapras being designed alongside Surf.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

A while ago, I developed a headcanon about how Pokémon evolution works. Basically, most species have a metaphorical or literal gene called an Evolution Factor. Under certain conditions, it "activates" and causes evolution, releasing a ton of Infinity Energy in the process — the same "energy given off when Pokémon evolve" that Team Galactic were trying to harness, but that plot thread went nowhere. (Another headcanon I have that all Pokémon powers come from Infinity Energy.) Pokémon can "lose" their Evolution Factor over the course of generations, which is why Stantler's Violet entry says it can't evolve anymore.

 

[Pikachu315111]

In general, these two come off as explicitly designed to represent Cut and Surf as field moves, respectively. Given the way HMs were implemented in RGBY, it feels like the developers wanted players to use Farfetch'd and Lapras specifically for the Cut and Surf HMs.

And looking at the five HMs, HMs in Gen 1 do feel like they were designed around very specific Pokemon.

Poorly researched discussion, just move along

Hm, let's look at this distribution-wise. Three of the HMs are needed to progress through the game (though Fly just makes travelling convenient; Flash also a convenience tool if you want to explore a dark cave and don't have the map). So, let's look at the Pokemon which learn it in Gen I (I also bolded the more likely users):

HM05/Flash: Butterfree, Pikachu line, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Venonat line, Abra line, Slowpoke line, Magnemite line, Drowzee line, Voltorb line, Chansey, Staryu line, Mr. Mime, Electabuzz, Jolteon, Porygon, Zapdos, Mewtwo, Mew

Why is the last HM the first one given, hint it was implemented last?

EDIT: Just ignore my delusion

Anyway, as mentioned, the problem associating Flash with Mr. Mime is you need an Abra which you get after the first cave you need Flash for. Thus, only the four bolded Pokemon are going to be you're likely Flasher. For Blue players, Butterfree might not be a bad choice as you're not going to be keeping it for the long run. Pikachu arguably is the next choice, or first if you're playing Red, that is if you were able to catch one in Viridian Forest. But if we're taking in terms of using Flash, than I'd more relate it to Jigglypuff. It's right outside Mt. Moon, may take a few tries to encounter it, but it can learn Flash and if you don't have the first two (or don't want to teach it to Pikachu) than its your only choice unless you want to go into Mt. Moon blind. I guess there's also technically Clefairy, though it's a 1% encounter in the first area of Mt. Moon. Even in the lower levels is still super rare so, not only will it probably take longer to get than Jigglypuff, but if you plan on using a Clefairy you may not want to give a rather useless Move to the only one you'll likely ever want to grind for.

Okay, so getting re-familiar with the Gen I games, I think I now see the "intended" path a bit more clearly. Unless you're being vigilant with your catching & evolving, to get the Flash HM you need to show Oak's Aide you've registered 10 Pokemon. If you're playing casually you may not have reached that point, thus you'd have to go back. So I think what's supposed to happen is you pass up the HM & Mr. Mime trade for now, go through Mt. Moon, possibly catch an Abra, get all the way to Rock Tunnel and, uh oh, it's dark inside. At that point, looking for a solution, you backtrack all the way to Route 2 where you finally have enough Pokemon registered to get Flash and possibly an Abra to trade for the Mr. Mime.
So, since this new likely scenario means you'll possibly get the two together, does that associate Mr. Mime with Flash? Well, not really. Because what I said above is an extreme case. I'd imagine players, upon hearing they need to register 10 Pokemon, would do that asap and get the HM, something which I think is possible before getting to the end of Mt. Moon. Hence, many players would likely have the HM separate from getting the Mr. Mime.
And then there's what pika pal said about Abra, it's hard to catch and can learn Flash itself, even if you spend the time catching two so you can trade one for the Mr. Mime I'd think the frustration alone (unless you got lucky) would have players not even wanting to teach Flash to this one-of-a-kind Pokemon they just got. Blue players may rather teach it to that Butterfree that's coming out of use, or that extra Jigglypuff they caught (or Pikachu or Clefairy if they got lucky enough to get one). Heck, Abra learns it! And it's not doing anything at the moment. Sure, a player who teaches Abra Flash would kick themselves in the head later when they find out they can't delete HMs, but at the very least they can catch another Abra. They would be REALLY miffed if they taught it to Mr. Mime as they can't get another one of those.

EDIT: Forgot about Diglett's Cave, which gives you access to Drowzee and Magnemite.

HM01/Cut: Bulbasaur line, Charmander line, Beedrill, Sandshrew line, Oddish line, Paras line, Diglett line, Bellsprout line, Tentacool line, Farfetch'd, Krabby line, Lickitung, Tangela, Scyther, Pinsir, Kabutops, Mew

It won't be until Vermillion City till you get Cut, and by that point you passed through 5 8 Routes and a few other locations you can get the above bolded Pokemon. Yes, there's a Trade for Farfetch'd in Vermillion City, but it probably wouldn't be your go-to choice. Red players may decide that Beedrill, which was good early game but better choices are becoming available, may be best to retire as the Cutter of the party. Blue players have both Sandshrew and Diglett and you don't need more than on Ground-type (heck after Lt. Surge you may decide not to use any at all). Speaking of choice of two Types, there's Paras and the the version exclusive Grass-types (not to mention Bulbasaur), so either of the Grass Wild Mons would also be a good choice. If for some reason a player doesn't have any of them, sure, I guess at that point Farfetch'd is the only choice, but outside a challenge run (which I don't think GF were thinking about when making Gen I) that's likely not gonna be an issue.

HM02/Fly: Pidgey line, Spearow line, Farfetch'd, Doduo line, Aerodactyl, Legendary Birds, Mew; Charizard in Yellow

Now do note that you get Fly right after Vermillion City. And in Gen I Fly is a pretty decent move. Sure it has that one turn the user is in the air, but the user can't be hit at the time so it's sort of like a built-in Protect (or at worst makes the battle last an additional turn per use). It is easily a Move which I can see someone teaching to their newly obtaind Farfetch'd (and hey, now Farfetch'd also has a use!). Of course, I say this when Pidgey, Spearow, and the newly available Doduo also can be taught Fly (and make better use of it having higher Attack than Farfetch'd). Honestly, Fly I wouldn't assign to be the "signature HM" of just any of the birds, but rather ALL of the birds. It's the Bird HM. Except maybe in Yellow if you chose Charmander as your partner, but you got to wait until it fully evolves so until then is still the Bird HM.
BUT, I will give you credence that, because Farfetch'd can learn both Cut and Fly, that does make it a handy early HM Slave. But that would only be a bonus if you didn't have a Pokemon that learned Fly as a member of your party, which while perfectly possible, all the other birds should still be carrying their weight in the party (especially now having a decent Flying-type move) and Flying is the most handy travelling too to have. If anything it seems like a buff to that Pidgey, Spearow, or Duduo you may have been considering switching out (and, oh look, th Grass-type Gym is next too!).

HM03/Surf: Squirtle line, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Psyduck line, Poliwag line, Tentacool line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Shellder line, Krabby line, Lickitung, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Horsea line, Goldeen line, Staryu line, Gyarados, Lapras, Vaporeon, Omanyte line, Kabuto family, Snorlax, Dratini line, Mew

HM04/Strength: Charmander line, Squirtle line, Ekans line, Sandshrew line, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Psyduck line, Mankey line, Poliwhirl & Poliwrath, Machop line, Geodude line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Gengar, Onix, Krabby line, Exeggutor, Cubone line, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Lickitung, Rhyhorn family, Chansey, Kangaskhan, Electabuzz, Magmar, Pinsir, Tauros, Gyarados, Lapras, Snorlax, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Mew

Jeez, would have been easier to note what Pokemon you COULDN'T have gotten (basically the Fossils, Mew family, and oddly the Seel family cause they're stuck on the Seafoam Islands (or a Ponyta Trade on Cinnabar Island)).
While Lapras is strongly associated with Surf (and it does handily learn Strength too, which is similar to Farfetch'd learning both Cut & Fly), it's likely not going to be the only Pokemon you'll have that can use Surf. Even if you avoided Water-types like the plague, there's STILL a chance you may have a Pokemon that can or can evolve into a Pokemon that can learn Surf. Heck, Snorlax can learn both Surf and Strength as well.
I used to remember hearing that so many Pokemon learned Surf and Strength is because GF wanted to make sure you had them when you needed them, but I kind of doubt that idea now. Like, you need Cut, but they didn't give it to most of the early route Pokemon (Rattata line didn't even learn it in Gen I, and they didn't feel like any of the birds needed it). I think the reason so many Pokemon have Surf and Strength is just because you're at the point in the game so many options are available. Not to mention swimming and pushing something are two very basic tasks a lot of Pokemon would naturally be able to do.

To sum up my thoughts, while I would agree that Farfetch'd and Lapras do certainly become handy when you get Cut (and Fly) and Surf (and Strength), respectively, I can't really support the idea GF made them specifically to serve as HM Slaves for them. Lapras would be the only I would most agree with due to early concept art and its Dex descriptions... BUT also at the same time that could just be a "proof of concept". They just so happened to used Lapras cause its a plesiosaur/loch ness monster/turtle dragon and that's a cool visual to sell the idea on. But then when it came to programming it in they sat down and wrote a list of all the Pokemon that would logically get it (basically all Water-types and a few of the kaiju-looking ones for fun). Lapras's dex description was likely a homage to it being the idea seller. It was then only later, possibly due to the anime having Ash & co. ride a Lapras during the Orange Islands arc, that the association between Lapras and Surf become very strong.

A while ago, I developed a headcanon about how Pokémon evolution works. Basically, most species have a metaphorical or literal gene called an Evolution Factor. Under certain conditions, it "activates" and causes evolution, releasing a ton of Infinity Energy in the process — the same "energy given off when Pokémon evolve" that Team Galactic were trying to harness, but that plot thread went nowhere. (Another headcanon I have that all Pokémon powers come from Infinity Energy.) Pokémon can "lose" their Evolution Factor over the course of generations, which is why Stantler's Violet entry says it can't evolve anymore.

Eh, I actually don't feel we really need to give an overall scientific reason for Pokemon Evolution. It's just something that Pokemon do with many of its species. Some Pokemon use it as or as a replacement for their biological aging process, some use it as a way for the species to become stronger, some as an adaptation to survive. If I must connect something to evolution I would agree it probably would be Infinity Energy... cause its magic. It doesn't need explanation.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

HM05/Flash: Butterfree, Pikachu line, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Venonat line, Abra line, Slowpoke line, Magnemite line, Drowzee line, Voltorb line, Chansey, Staryu line, Mr. Mime, Electabuzz, Jolteon, Porygon, Zapdos, Mewtwo, Mew

Why is the last HM the first one given, hint it was implemented last?
Anyway, as mentioned, the problem associating Flash with Mr. Mime is you need an Abra which you get after the first cave you need Flash for. Thus, only the four bolded Pokemon are going to be you're likely Flasher. For Blue players, Butterfree might not be a bad choice as you're not going to be keeping it for the long run. Pikachu arguably is the next choice, or first if you're playing Red, that is if you were able to catch one in Viridian Forest. But if we're taking in terms of using Flash, than I'd more relate it to Jigglypuff. It's right outside Mt. Moon, may take a few tries to encounter it, but it can learn Flash and if you don't have the first two (or don't want to teach it to Pikachu) than its your only choice unless you want to go into Mt. Moon blind. I guess there's also technically Clefairy, though it's a 1% encounter in the first area of Mt. Moon. Even in the lower levels is still super rare so, not only will it probably take longer to get than Jigglypuff, but if you plan on using a Clefairy you may not want to give a rather useless Move to the only one you'll likely ever want to grind for

Mt Moon has never had dark sections requiring Flash for visibility and it's either impressive or flat-out bizarre that you've dissected an element of Gen 1 in such detail while apparently having hardly any memory of actually playing the games.

While I don't agree with the idea that Mr Mime has some specific and deliberate association with Flash, the reasoning is clearly that you get the actual Flash HM just south of the house with the Mr Mime trade NPC. Both only become accessible a while after you've already traversed Mt. Moon.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Mt Moon has never had dark sections requiring Flash for visibility and it's either impressive or flat-out bizarre that you've dissected an element of Gen 1 in such detail while apparently having hardly any memory of actually playing the games.

Yeah, sorry, so it's apparently Rock Tunnel where Flash can be used. A cave which is past Cerulean City.
Not having played Gen I in a while or watched a playthrough of it, only really remembering Mt. Moon has a meme of annoying to get through (mostly due to Zubat, which I guess assumed liked to live in dark caves, being they have no eyes and get around via echolocation), and being you get Flash right outside it plus it's Brock's Badge which is needed to use the HM, my mind connected the dots and misremembered Mt. Moon was obviously the first dark location. I mean why give you the HM then and make the Badge to use it the first Badge if it was meant for a later cave.

...

Okay, let me re-gather my thoughts. All that really changes is that Abra and Mr. Mime are now options.

EDIT: Okay, so getting re-familiar with the Gen I games, I think I now see the "intended" path a bit more clearly. I posted it in my original post.

 

[Ravenson]

EDIT: Okay, so getting re-familiar with the Gen I games, I think I now see the "intended" path a bit more clearly. I posted it in my original post.

You still want to bold Drowzee (Route 11), Magnemite (Route 10 which you can get to before you get Flash), and possibly Voltorb and Venonat if you're accounting for Yellow. Also, you get Cut after going through eight routes: 1-6 + 24 and 25 (to get the ticket)

 

[Pikachu315111]

You still want to bold Drowzee (Route 11), Magnemite (Route 10 which you can get to before you get Flash), and possibly Voltorb and Venonat if you're accounting for Yellow. Also, you get Cut after going through eight routes: 1-6 + 24 and 25 (to get the ticket)

Ugh, forgot about Diglett's Cave. You know what, just forget I said anything.

 

[RocketSurgery]

With confirmation of Walking Wake's typing, I am now all in on my conspiracy theory that slither wing was originally designed to be bug/dragon but they decided that the scarlet paradoxes were already slaying so hard that they couldn't make 3 of them dragons (not counting the raidons), and so they nerfed the little slithery guy. :(

And just to twist the knide they made it part fighting, the most overrepresented paradox type :P

 

[Esserise]

(Felt like my reply was a better fit for this thread than the little annoyances one)

The main issue I have with the "the Time Machine doesn't let you time travel" is that it still begs the question of how what are seemingly the same Pokemon were spotted 200 years ago as mentioned. I would believe the Pokemon aren't here all-together because of the time machine, but at the same time there are other inconsistencies if the Machine (regardless of nature" is the reason they exist at all.

I’m going to go ahead and spoiler it since I mention some the newly announced stuff from yesterday, but my thinking on this whole thing is:

Hide

It all connects to Terapagos/the disk creature.

200 years ago, Heath’s expedition ventured into Area Zero. During this expedition, they encountered various Paradox Pokémon, which I believe were manifested by Terapagos, and may have been extrapolated from the imagination of some previous explorer of Area Zero. (People have been trying to reach the bottom of Area Zero for about 2,000 years, after all, so there’s been a lot of opportunities for people to come within range of Terapagos’s area of effect.)

Seeing these creatures spurred the imagination of one of the explorers even further, prompting them to sketch out another hypothetical entity, which Terapagos would eventually manifest as Walking Wake/Iron Leaves.

The expedition team took notes and sketches about the Paradox Pokémon that they encountered, and recorded them in the Scarlet/Violet Book.

As a child, Prof. Sada/Turo was fascinated by the Scarlet/Violet Book and its tales of mysterious creatures that seemed ancient/futuristic.

Once Sada/Turo reached adulthood, became a professor, and received funding to investigate Area Zero, they discovered the power of Terapagos, and used it to invent Tera Orbs, as well as their “time machine.” But the time machine, being powered by Terapagos, doesn’t actually manipulate time, it simply channels and directs Terapagos’s manifestation power.

Since the ancient/future Pokémon illustrated in the SV Book are what Sada/Turo dreamed of finding, the “time machine” powered by Terapagos continues to produce more of them. That’s why these Paradox Pokémon are appearing again now — because Sada/Turo was inspired by the depictions of them in the SV Book, and those depictions are based on what Heath’s group encountered 200 years prior.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

According to the commentary on Scarlet's recent GDQ run, there's something off about Violet.

• Violet lags constantly compared to Scarlet. The extra lag is seemingly unrelated to loading Miraidon's model instead of Koraidon, as it happens even before you get the mount.
• There's a misplaced loading zone behind a building in Area Zero that's absent in Scarlet.
• Professor Sada's Pokemon have fixed IVs like every other boss, but Professor Turo's have random IVs (except for Iron Valiant, if I recall).
• This isn't mentioned in the run, but to my eyes a lot of the cutscenes seem designed around Koraidon and not Miraidon. The scenes where the mount licks Penny just straight-up don't make sense with Miraidon because it doesn't have a tongue, and the scene in the prologue where the mount picks you up and jumps out of the pit looks really weird with Miraidon, since it jumps and lands as if it were standing on the ground with legs, which it doesn't do in Ultimate Mode.

My personal theory is that Scarlet was made first, and then Violet was made by modifying an outdated build of Scarlet.

 

[R_N]

The "time travel" aesthetic, regardless of the Truth of what is happening with them, of the paradoxes honestly feels like it made more sense with the Past paradoxes too.
Like the entire area has a very "place from the ancient past, untouched by time" vibe, which feels appropriate with vague dinosaurian weirdos and.....less, so, than Robots. All the science-y bits are from modern incursions (the labs, the time machine, the ai). There is a hinted element of scifi present with the mysterious plate unearthed, but beyond that thee expedition team finding robots feels weird in a different, kind of unintended way.


Though I will admit robotic futuristic creatures wandering around an otherwise untouched land does sell "paradox" as OOParts more so give and take I guess.

 

[Esserise]

My personal theory is that Scarlet was made first, and then Violet was made by modifying an outdated build of Scarlet.

IIRC Masuda has actually said that this is how they do it; they start with one version and then work out the differences later in development. But the interview I’m thinking of was many years ago so it’s also possible that the process has changed since then, especially with version differences becoming more pronounced.

Though I will admit robotic futuristic creatures wandering around an otherwise untouched land does sell "paradox" as OOParts more so give and take I guess.

I kind of came to a similar conclusion myself. For as much as I like the variety of the ancient Paradoxes, I feel like the robotic future Paradoxes have a more visually consistent identity which more firmly distinguishes them from the regular Pokémon that wander around Area Zero. I remember thinking it made a lot more sense for Arven to see the giant Iron Treads Titan and be like “Is this even a Pokémon?!” than it did in regards to Great Tusk which is just… a big furry Donphan? I can see why chatacters in-universe might be a little perplexed by robotic versions of existing Pokémon, but nothing about the ancient Paradoxes strikes me as being too outside the realm of possibility for Pokémon biology.

 

[Mova]

I wonder if there is a canon depiction of the regions, would it only have access to one version's Pokemon at a time, or would it have a bit of both like the TV anime? It would imply that the entire Paldea Pokedex exists within the region, but we don't get any hints without trading or knowing in advance.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

I thought that the plot twist fits more thematically in Violet.

 

[Pikachu315111]

• This isn't mentioned in the run, but to my eyes a lot of the cutscenes seem designed around Koraidon and not Miraidon. The scenes where the mount licks Penny just straight-up don't make sense with Miraidon because it doesn't have a tongue, and the scene in the prologue where the mount picks you up and jumps out of the pit looks really weird with Miraidon, since it jumps and lands as if it were standing on the ground with legs, which it doesn't do in Ultimate Mode.

My personal theory is that Scarlet was made first, and then Violet was made by modifying an outdated build of Scarlet.

In addition Penny mentions the 'Raidon "drooled on her after licking her: "Blech... It drooled all over me. What even IS that Pokémon anyway?"

Makes sense for Koraidon, but since I saw that scene with Miraidon I couldn't help but think "Penny, don't be silly, it's a robot, that's not drool... it's battery acid!"

I wonder if there is a canon depiction of the regions, would it only have access to one version's Pokemon at a time, or would it have a bit of both like the TV anime? It would imply that the entire Paldea Pokedex exists within the region, but we don't get any hints without trading or knowing in advance.

It's been hinted at several times that each Pokemon game occur in their own separate pocket universe so there's no true "canon" choice.

• First time I think this idea was reference was in Black & White. In Opelucid City in Drayden's house there's an NPC trying to make a time machine work (sadly I have no footage from White Version of this. In White Version the guy is named Thyme who wants to use a time machine his dad (Bach) made to go back to he past to undo mistakes he made. In Black Version it's actually Bach who you talk with but that's all I know; I'm going to guess he's making a time machine in order to see how his son has grown in the future). To complete the time machine they need a Pokemon with Charge from the other version, both mentioning an Opelucid City from "another world" (Thyme describes it as "old-timey", guessing Bach would describe it as "futuristic"?). After showing him the Pokemon he tries to connect with his relative (Thyme tries apologizing for something; not sure what Bach says), but despite the connection nothing changes but for your help gives you a Cell Battery (Thyme then says instead of regretting the past he's going to focus on the present; guessing Bach would say instead of worrying about the future he'll focus on the present). Eitherway, both suggest that both White & Black version are their own worlds (and also oddly that Black is the past of White?). There may also be something with White Forest and Black City as I know you can trade NPCs between both of them.
  
  
• Than I think the next instance is in ORAS's Delta Episode. The original plan to get rid of the meteor is teleporting it somewhere else via a Dimensional Link Cable. However Zinnia destroys it. Her reasoning? Sure we'll save "our" world, but she somehow knows the meteor would appear in front of another Pokemon world (hinting it at being the world of Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald) that wouldn't be able to stop it and be destroyed. Thus she forces the player to help with her plans. It's hinted at that the firing of the Ultimate Weapon apparently split the timeline between old universe and Mega universe.
  
  
• Sun, Moon, Ultra Sun, and Ultra Moon had dimension travelling as a theme so the idea of versions being different Pokemon worlds is mentioned. Subtlety via the story differences between the original SM and USUM, than there's travelling to "another" Alola where the time of day is swapped and when in that world you can get another Cosmog from the Lake of the Sunne (Moon/Ultra Moon) or Lake of the Moone (Sun/Ultra Sun). Oh, and than there was Episode Rainbow Rocket in USUM where a Giovanni from a universe he succeeded and gained power to travel through Ultra Wormholes. He used this power to travel to other dimensions where the other game villain team bosses were about to succeed in their goals (apparently they're all from dimensions where the protag didn't exist) to go on a multi-dimensional conquest spree starting with USUM. Notable multi-world moments include Archie and Maxie (who are in their old RSE designs instead of their new ORAS design since all the games now take place on the general Mega Timeline) arguing with one another because they defeated the other in their dimension. We also had Colress mocking Ghetsis as the Ghetsis in USUM is based on one before B2W2, Ghetsis recognizing him as a scientist working from Team Plasma while Colress tells him he despised working for him before sending him back to the dimension he was pulled from.

I don't recall if Galar had any examples.

The "time travel" aesthetic, regardless of the Truth of what is happening with them, of the paradoxes honestly feels like it made more sense with the Past paradoxes too.
Like the entire area has a very "place from the ancient past, untouched by time" vibe, which feels appropriate with vague dinosaurian weirdos and.....less, so, than Robots. All the science-y bits are from modern incursions (the labs, the time machine, the ai). There is a hinted element of scifi present with the mysterious plate unearthed, but beyond that thee expedition team finding robots feels weird in a different, kind of unintended way.

I thought that the plot twist fits more thematically in Violet.

Yeah, that's the problem here.

The time machine, Area Zero's environment, and how your 'Raidon acts in cutscenes feel like they make more sense in Scarlet.
BUT the twist with the AI Professor and how the 'Raidon works as a mechanic feels like they make more sense in Violet.

They had two polar opposite themes and tried to combine them so they didn't have to make too many changes between versions, but doing so only made things feel like they either fit or were out-of-place this time around.

 

[Ironmage]

There's also the somewhat common scifi trope of of having preexisting advanced tech discovered relatively recently. Which would explain how an older expedition also found robots but then probably breaks the idea of actually linking to the future (since, robot or not, these mons were at their peak at this location in the past). The idea of an advanced precursor civilization is mentioned by Iron Bundle's description, and only by that one mon.

 

[pika pal]

I kind of came to a similar conclusion myself. For as much as I like the variety of the ancient Paradoxes, I feel like the robotic future Paradoxes have a more visually consistent identity which more firmly distinguishes them from the regular Pokémon that wander around Area Zero. I remember thinking it made a lot more sense for Arven to see the giant Iron Treads Titan and be like “Is this even a Pokémon?!” than it did in regards to Great Tusk which is just… a big furry Donphan? I can see why chatacters in-universe might be a little perplexed by robotic versions of existing Pokémon, but nothing about the ancient Paradoxes strikes me as being too outside the realm of possibility for Pokémon biology.

I think this is a matter of the designs needing to be recognizable to the player for comparison, when this could be sold if Great Tusk and Co. had more/more dramatic differences from their base designs: if you assume Arven weren't familiar with megas, his comment would make sense for something like Roaring Moon, which has much less of a direct resemblance to Salamence than something like Great Tusk does to Donphan.

The "time travel" aesthetic, regardless of the Truth of what is happening with them, of the paradoxes honestly feels like it made more sense with the Past paradoxes too.
Like the entire area has a very "place from the ancient past, untouched by time" vibe, which feels appropriate with vague dinosaurian weirdos and.....less, so, than Robots. All the science-y bits are from modern incursions (the labs, the time machine, the ai). There is a hinted element of scifi present with the mysterious plate unearthed, but beyond that thee expedition team finding robots feels weird in a different, kind of unintended way.


Though I will admit robotic futuristic creatures wandering around an otherwise untouched land does sell "paradox" as OOParts more so give and take I guess.

I will argue this aesthetic comes back into making sense at the bottom layer with the Crystal Caverns, which have a more traditional-sci-fi feeling to the aesthetic while the upper levels are more "Lost World" in look. This would also align with some like Iron Moth being suggested as Alien machines even in their own time (albeit Moth I believe is only in the upper levels). Where I think this becomes a harder sell is in the conflict of them having the potential to escape the crater. The AI Professor will specifically cite the Donphan Paradox of your version that became the Quaking Earth Titan as the example of concern, but in Violet, many of the Future Paradoxes can fly (Moth, Jugulis), so I don't get why they haven't been a concern prior; by comparison, Flutter Mane only appears in the lower areas of Area Zero's dark cave, which inclines me to assume it can't stay in the sunlight like most Ghosts can't in SV, while Roaring Moon spawns in a Cave at the mid-point that it can't get out of, which I take to mean it can't find an open route to where it could fly out anyway at its size (funnily, something Great Tusk barreling out of the Underground could allow in their respective escapes)

 

[Hugin]

Is Nemona intended to be ill? She has repeated quotes about being out of breath and tired, wears a wrist brace, and has a whole thing about being bad at throwing pokeballs. It could be just them wanting to make her absolutely not a jock, but it feels like more than that.

 

[Pikachu315111]

There's also the somewhat common scifi trope of of having preexisting advanced tech discovered relatively recently. Which would explain how an older expedition also found robots but then probably breaks the idea of actually linking to the future (since, robot or not, these mons were at their peak at this location in the past). The idea of an advanced precursor civilization is mentioned by Iron Bundle's description, and only by that one mon.

The Violet Paradox Pokemon could also be referencing the idea of an out-of-place artifact, a manmade object found that is old enough to be considered an artifact yet its design and/or build is something which either is from someplace else in the world that wouldn't have anyway of getting there or, more important to this discussion, is or requiring technology not thought developed at that point. You could possibly describe these artifacts as a literal representation of a "paradox". And while all these artifacts of course have a more mundane explanation to their presence (hints that there was more travelling/communicating between cultures than previously thought, the technology was actually possible but just required extreme amounts of detail and engineering, etc.), scifi loves to use this trope for time travelling plots.

Also we know most if not everything the Occulture magazine says is BS.

The AI Professor will specifically cite the Donphan Paradox of your version that became the Quaking Earth Titan as the example of concern, but in Violet, many of the Future Paradoxes can fly (Moth, Jugulis), so I don't get why they haven't been a concern prior

I could see the Future Paradox Pokemon being a bit easier to keep wrangled being they're machines. Moth and Jugulis don't fly out because they're either following programming to patrol their designated territory or the research stations are giving off a signal which draws in and possibly orders the Future Paradox Pokemon not to escape. Of course this does present two question the game isn't interested in answering:

1. How do the writers of the Occulture magazine know about these Pokemon? At some point a member of each of the Paradox Pokemon that we know have apparently escaped and been reported, yet only the Occulture magazine seemingly recorded these reports. What happened to these wayward Paradox Pokemon? Are we to presume the Professor went out and got them before anyone noticed?

2. Then we have the Quaking Titan. Not only does it bring up the question how Paradox Pokemon like it has escaped, but also a reminder that a member of this species was also seen 200 years ago! Now that was back in Area Zero, but if the Paradox Pokemon existed even back then, why is it just now they're escaping? Yes, I guess now there's a LOT of them due to the Professor going Time Machine catching crazy, but either there's a way that the Paradox Pokemon are being contained (for the most part) that we're not being told about or there should be batches of Paradox Pokemon who have escaped Area Zero (in despite of any containment attempt).

Is Nemona intended to be ill? She has repeated quotes about being out of breath and tired, wears a wrist brace, and has a whole thing about being bad at throwing pokeballs. It could be just them wanting to make her absolutely not a jock, but it feels like more than that.

It's meant to show Nemona is both an overachiever but over exhausts herself. I don't want to use the word "try-hard" as she's not being edgy of anything, but I'd say she would be the more "friendlier" version of that idea. She's SO into battling because of a natural talent for it, plus it being hard to make friends due to people being intimidated by her, she just goes all in.

• She's constantly tired and out of breath because she's running around training dozens of Pokemon at a time, likely also trying out new battling strategies and finding that PERFECT Pokemon (as she's also a perfectionist).
  
  
• The brace is meant to be a sports brace you see athletes sometimes wearing when training or casually out doing things. They're meant to prevent injury from overexerting. Nemona wears a wrist one around her Pokeball throwing arm as not to accidentally twist it too much/the wrong way and give herself a sprain.
  
  
• Being bad at Pokeball throwing is just a quirk they gave her I guess to humanize her? If I were to analyze anything from it, it could be that despite her natural talent for training Pokemon and her healthy physique, she's just not well coordinated if a bit clumsy. Not her fault, could just be the way her brain is wired, but still possibly an embarrassing trait she feels about herself (maybe she wears the brace because it helps her ball throwing).

 

[Magcargo]

I am 100% convinced that Area 0 has bugged shiny rates that make it way higher than other areas in the game. I've gotten nearly a dozen of shinies in the location during the past few days without using a shiny sandwich or anything (just the shiny charm).

 

[R_N]

I am 100% convinced that Area 0 has bugged shiny rates that make it way higher than other areas in the game. I've gotten nearly a dozen of shinies in the location during the past few days without using a shiny sandwich or anything (just the shiny charm).

I think it just has high concentrated spawn rates. Like a lot of the spawners across Paldea are in Area 0 specifically. So it's constantly spitting out a ton of Pokemon at you in an somewhat closed area.

When I was hunting for a 3-segment Dunsparce (not shiny) i kept going backa and forth in that cave where they spawned and found a shiny espathra and shiny gible and thats probably because i just kept tripping the like 12 spawners that are in that small chunk of cliffside. And the "upper side" is also fairly dense in Pokemon.

 

[CPU]

I am 100% convinced that Area 0 has bugged shiny rates that make it way higher than other areas in the game. I've gotten nearly a dozen of shinies in the location during the past few days without using a shiny sandwich or anything (just the shiny charm).

I remember reading that Area Zero has half as many spawners as the rest of the overworld combined. I found two shinies there just while beating the story mode. It's more likely that spawns are just much more common there, and thus shinies are as well.

But hey, maybe it does have an intrinsically higher shiny spawn rate! I don't actually know.