Considering some of the earliest artwork of Lapras is it transporting the player, yeah I’ll put money on Lapras being designed alongside Surf.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
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Considering some of the earliest artwork of Lapras is it transporting the player, yeah I’ll put money on Lapras being designed alongside Surf.
A while ago, I developed a headcanon about how Pokémon evolution works. Basically, most species have a metaphorical or literal gene called an Evolution Factor. Under certain conditions, it "activates" and causes evolution, releasing a ton of Infinity Energy in the process — the same "energy given off when Pokémon evolve" that Team Galactic were trying to harness, but that plot thread went nowhere. (Another headcanon I have that all Pokémon powers come from Infinity Energy.) Pokémon can "lose" their Evolution Factor over the course of generations, which is why Stantler's Violet entry says it can't evolve anymore.
Hm, let's look at this distribution-wise. Three of the HMs are needed to progress through the game (though Fly just makes travelling convenient; Flash also a convenience tool if you want to explore a dark cave and don't have the map). So, let's look at the Pokemon which learn it in Gen I (I also bolded the more likely users):
HM05/Flash: Butterfree, Pikachu line, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Venonat line, Abra line, Slowpoke line, Magnemite line, Drowzee line, Voltorb line, Chansey, Staryu line, Mr. Mime, Electabuzz, Jolteon, Porygon, Zapdos, Mewtwo, Mew
Why is the last HM the first one given, hint it was implemented last?
Anyway, as mentioned, the problem associating Flash with Mr. Mime is you need an Abra which you get after the first cave you need Flash for. Thus, only the four bolded Pokemon are going to be you're likely Flasher. For Blue players, Butterfree might not be a bad choice as you're not going to be keeping it for the long run. Pikachu arguably is the next choice, or first if you're playing Red, that is if you were able to catch one in Viridian Forest. But if we're taking in terms of using Flash, than I'd more relate it to Jigglypuff. It's right outside Mt. Moon, may take a few tries to encounter it, but it can learn Flash and if you don't have the first two (or don't want to teach it to Pikachu) than its your only choice unless you want to go into Mt. Moon blind. I guess there's also technically Clefairy, though it's a 1% encounter in the first area of Mt. Moon. Even in the lower levels is still super rare so, not only will it probably take longer to get than Jigglypuff, but if you plan on using a Clefairy you may not want to give a rather useless Move to the only one you'll likely ever want to grind for.
Okay, so getting re-familiar with the Gen I games, I think I now see the "intended" path a bit more clearly. Unless you're being vigilant with your catching & evolving, to get the Flash HM you need to show Oak's Aide you've registered 10 Pokemon. If you're playing casually you may not have reached that point, thus you'd have to go back. So I think what's supposed to happen is you pass up the HM & Mr. Mime trade for now, go through Mt. Moon, possibly catch an Abra, get all the way to Rock Tunnel and, uh oh, it's dark inside. At that point, looking for a solution, you backtrack all the way to Route 2 where you finally have enough Pokemon registered to get Flash and possibly an Abra to trade for the Mr. Mime.
So, since this new likely scenario means you'll possibly get the two together, does that associate Mr. Mime with Flash? Well, not really. Because what I said above is an extreme case. I'd imagine players, upon hearing they need to register 10 Pokemon, would do that asap and get the HM, something which I think is possible before getting to the end of Mt. Moon. Hence, many players would likely have the HM separate from getting the Mr. Mime.
And then there's what pika pal said about Abra, it's hard to catch and can learn Flash itself, even if you spend the time catching two so you can trade one for the Mr. Mime I'd think the frustration alone (unless you got lucky) would have players not even wanting to teach Flash to this one-of-a-kind Pokemon they just got. Blue players may rather teach it to that Butterfree that's coming out of use, or that extra Jigglypuff they caught (or Pikachu or Clefairy if they got lucky enough to get one). Heck, Abra learns it! And it's not doing anything at the moment. Sure, a player who teaches Abra Flash would kick themselves in the head later when they find out they can't delete HMs, but at the very least they can catch another Abra. They would be REALLY miffed if they taught it to Mr. Mime as they can't get another one of those.
EDIT: Forgot about Diglett's Cave, which gives you access to Drowzee and Magnemite.
HM01/Cut: Bulbasaur line, Charmander line, Beedrill, Sandshrew line, Oddish line, Paras line, Diglett line, Bellsprout line, Tentacool line, Farfetch'd, Krabby line, Lickitung, Tangela, Scyther, Pinsir, Kabutops, Mew
It won't be until Vermillion City till you get Cut, and by that point you passed through5 8 Routes and a few other locations you can get the above bolded Pokemon. Yes, there's a Trade for Farfetch'd in Vermillion City, but it probably wouldn't be your go-to choice. Red players may decide that Beedrill, which was good early game but better choices are becoming available, may be best to retire as the Cutter of the party. Blue players have both Sandshrew and Diglett and you don't need more than on Ground-type (heck after Lt. Surge you may decide not to use any at all). Speaking of choice of two Types, there's Paras and the the version exclusive Grass-types (not to mention Bulbasaur), so either of the Grass Wild Mons would also be a good choice. If for some reason a player doesn't have any of them, sure, I guess at that point Farfetch'd is the only choice, but outside a challenge run (which I don't think GF were thinking about when making Gen I) that's likely not gonna be an issue.
HM02/Fly: Pidgey line, Spearow line, Farfetch'd, Doduo line, Aerodactyl, Legendary Birds, Mew; Charizard in Yellow
Now do note that you get Fly right after Vermillion City. And in Gen I Fly is a pretty decent move. Sure it has that one turn the user is in the air, but the user can't be hit at the time so it's sort of like a built-in Protect (or at worst makes the battle last an additional turn per use). It is easily a Move which I can see someone teaching to their newly obtaind Farfetch'd (and hey, now Farfetch'd also has a use!). Of course, I say this when Pidgey, Spearow, and the newly available Doduo also can be taught Fly (and make better use of it having higher Attack than Farfetch'd). Honestly, Fly I wouldn't assign to be the "signature HM" of just any of the birds, but rather ALL of the birds. It's the Bird HM. Except maybe in Yellow if you chose Charmander as your partner, but you got to wait until it fully evolves so until then is still the Bird HM.
BUT, I will give you credence that, because Farfetch'd can learn both Cut and Fly, that does make it a handy early HM Slave. But that would only be a bonus if you didn't have a Pokemon that learned Fly as a member of your party, which while perfectly possible, all the other birds should still be carrying their weight in the party (especially now having a decent Flying-type move) and Flying is the most handy travelling too to have. If anything it seems like a buff to that Pidgey, Spearow, or Duduo you may have been considering switching out (and, oh look, th Grass-type Gym is next too!).
HM03/Surf: Squirtle line, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Psyduck line, Poliwag line, Tentacool line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Shellder line, Krabby line, Lickitung, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Horsea line, Goldeen line, Staryu line, Gyarados, Lapras, Vaporeon, Omanyte line, Kabuto family, Snorlax, Dratini line, Mew
HM04/Strength: Charmander line, Squirtle line, Ekans line, Sandshrew line, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Psyduck line, Mankey line, Poliwhirl & Poliwrath, Machop line, Geodude line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Gengar, Onix, Krabby line, Exeggutor, Cubone line, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Lickitung, Rhyhorn family, Chansey, Kangaskhan, Electabuzz, Magmar, Pinsir, Tauros, Gyarados, Lapras, Snorlax, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Mew
Jeez, would have been easier to note what Pokemon you COULDN'T have gotten (basically the Fossils, Mew family, and oddly the Seel family cause they're stuck on the Seafoam Islands (or a Ponyta Trade on Cinnabar Island)).
While Lapras is strongly associated with Surf (and it does handily learn Strength too, which is similar to Farfetch'd learning both Cut & Fly), it's likely not going to be the only Pokemon you'll have that can use Surf. Even if you avoided Water-types like the plague, there's STILL a chance you may have a Pokemon that can or can evolve into a Pokemon that can learn Surf. Heck, Snorlax can learn both Surf and Strength as well.
I used to remember hearing that so many Pokemon learned Surf and Strength is because GF wanted to make sure you had them when you needed them, but I kind of doubt that idea now. Like, you need Cut, but they didn't give it to most of the early route Pokemon (Rattata line didn't even learn it in Gen I, and they didn't feel like any of the birds needed it). I think the reason so many Pokemon have Surf and Strength is just because you're at the point in the game so many options are available. Not to mention swimming and pushing something are two very basic tasks a lot of Pokemon would naturally be able to do.
HM05/Flash: Butterfree, Pikachu line, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Venonat line, Abra line, Slowpoke line, Magnemite line, Drowzee line, Voltorb line, Chansey, Staryu line, Mr. Mime, Electabuzz, Jolteon, Porygon, Zapdos, Mewtwo, Mew
Why is the last HM the first one given, hint it was implemented last?
So, since this new likely scenario means you'll possibly get the two together, does that associate Mr. Mime with Flash? Well, not really. Because what I said above is an extreme case. I'd imagine players, upon hearing they need to register 10 Pokemon, would do that asap and get the HM, something which I think is possible before getting to the end of Mt. Moon. Hence, many players would likely have the HM separate from getting the Mr. Mime.
And then there's what pika pal said about Abra, it's hard to catch and can learn Flash itself, even if you spend the time catching two so you can trade one for the Mr. Mime I'd think the frustration alone (unless you got lucky) would have players not even wanting to teach Flash to this one-of-a-kind Pokemon they just got. Blue players may rather teach it to that Butterfree that's coming out of use, or that extra Jigglypuff they caught (or Pikachu or Clefairy if they got lucky enough to get one). Heck, Abra learns it! And it's not doing anything at the moment. Sure, a player who teaches Abra Flash would kick themselves in the head later when they find out they can't delete HMs, but at the very least they can catch another Abra. They would be REALLY miffed if they taught it to Mr. Mime as they can't get another one of those.
EDIT: Forgot about Diglett's Cave, which gives you access to Drowzee and Magnemite.
HM01/Cut: Bulbasaur line, Charmander line, Beedrill, Sandshrew line, Oddish line, Paras line, Diglett line, Bellsprout line, Tentacool line, Farfetch'd, Krabby line, Lickitung, Tangela, Scyther, Pinsir, Kabutops, Mew
It won't be until Vermillion City till you get Cut, and by that point you passed through
HM02/Fly: Pidgey line, Spearow line, Farfetch'd, Doduo line, Aerodactyl, Legendary Birds, Mew; Charizard in Yellow
Now do note that you get Fly right after Vermillion City. And in Gen I Fly is a pretty decent move. Sure it has that one turn the user is in the air, but the user can't be hit at the time so it's sort of like a built-in Protect (or at worst makes the battle last an additional turn per use). It is easily a Move which I can see someone teaching to their newly obtaind Farfetch'd (and hey, now Farfetch'd also has a use!). Of course, I say this when Pidgey, Spearow, and the newly available Doduo also can be taught Fly (and make better use of it having higher Attack than Farfetch'd). Honestly, Fly I wouldn't assign to be the "signature HM" of just any of the birds, but rather ALL of the birds. It's the Bird HM. Except maybe in Yellow if you chose Charmander as your partner, but you got to wait until it fully evolves so until then is still the Bird HM.
BUT, I will give you credence that, because Farfetch'd can learn both Cut and Fly, that does make it a handy early HM Slave. But that would only be a bonus if you didn't have a Pokemon that learned Fly as a member of your party, which while perfectly possible, all the other birds should still be carrying their weight in the party (especially now having a decent Flying-type move) and Flying is the most handy travelling too to have. If anything it seems like a buff to that Pidgey, Spearow, or Duduo you may have been considering switching out (and, oh look, th Grass-type Gym is next too!).
HM03/Surf: Squirtle line, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Psyduck line, Poliwag line, Tentacool line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Shellder line, Krabby line, Lickitung, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Horsea line, Goldeen line, Staryu line, Gyarados, Lapras, Vaporeon, Omanyte line, Kabuto family, Snorlax, Dratini line, Mew
HM04/Strength: Charmander line, Squirtle line, Ekans line, Sandshrew line, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Clefairy line, Jigglypuff line, Psyduck line, Mankey line, Poliwhirl & Poliwrath, Machop line, Geodude line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Gengar, Onix, Krabby line, Exeggutor, Cubone line, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Lickitung, Rhyhorn family, Chansey, Kangaskhan, Electabuzz, Magmar, Pinsir, Tauros, Gyarados, Lapras, Snorlax, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Mew
Jeez, would have been easier to note what Pokemon you COULDN'T have gotten (basically the Fossils, Mew family, and oddly the Seel family cause they're stuck on the Seafoam Islands (or a Ponyta Trade on Cinnabar Island)).
While Lapras is strongly associated with Surf (and it does handily learn Strength too, which is similar to Farfetch'd learning both Cut & Fly), it's likely not going to be the only Pokemon you'll have that can use Surf. Even if you avoided Water-types like the plague, there's STILL a chance you may have a Pokemon that can or can evolve into a Pokemon that can learn Surf. Heck, Snorlax can learn both Surf and Strength as well.
I used to remember hearing that so many Pokemon learned Surf and Strength is because GF wanted to make sure you had them when you needed them, but I kind of doubt that idea now. Like, you need Cut, but they didn't give it to most of the early route Pokemon (Rattata line didn't even learn it in Gen I, and they didn't feel like any of the birds needed it). I think the reason so many Pokemon have Surf and Strength is just because you're at the point in the game so many options are available. Not to mention swimming and pushing something are two very basic tasks a lot of Pokemon would naturally be able to do.
To sum up my thoughts, while I would agree that Farfetch'd and Lapras do certainly become handy when you get Cut (and Fly) and Surf (and Strength), respectively, I can't really support the idea GF made them specifically to serve as HM Slaves for them. Lapras would be the only I would most agree with due to early concept art and its Dex descriptions... BUT also at the same time that could just be a "proof of concept". They just so happened to used Lapras cause its a plesiosaur/loch ness monster/turtle dragon and that's a cool visual to sell the idea on. But then when it came to programming it in they sat down and wrote a list of all the Pokemon that would logically get it (basically all Water-types and a few of the kaiju-looking ones for fun). Lapras's dex description was likely a homage to it being the idea seller. It was then only later, possibly due to the anime having Ash & co. ride a Lapras during the Orange Islands arc, that the association between Lapras and Surf become very strong.
Eh, I actually don't feel we really need to give an overall scientific reason for Pokemon Evolution. It's just something that Pokemon do with many of its species. Some Pokemon use it as or as a replacement for their biological aging process, some use it as a way for the species to become stronger, some as an adaptation to survive. If I must connect something to evolution I would agree it probably would be Infinity Energy... cause its magic. It doesn't need explanation.
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Mt Moon has never had dark sections requiring Flash for visibility and it's either impressive or flat-out bizarre that you've dissected an element of Gen 1 in such detail while apparently having hardly any memory of actually playing the games.
While I don't agree with the idea that Mr Mime has some specific and deliberate association with Flash, the reasoning is clearly that you get the actual Flash HM just south of the house with the Mr Mime trade NPC. Both only become accessible a while after you've already traversed Mt. Moon.
Yeah, sorry, so it's apparently Rock Tunnel where Flash can be used. A cave which is past Cerulean City.
Not having played Gen I in a while or watched a playthrough of it, only really remembering Mt. Moon has a meme of annoying to get through (mostly due to Zubat, which I guess assumed liked to live in dark caves, being they have no eyes and get around via echolocation), and being you get Flash right outside it plus it's Brock's Badge which is needed to use the HM, my mind connected the dots and misremembered Mt. Moon was obviously the first dark location. I mean why give you the HM then and make the Badge to use it the first Badge if it was meant for a later cave.
...
Okay, let me re-gather my thoughts. All that really changes is that Abra and Mr. Mime are now options.
EDIT: Okay, so getting re-familiar with the Gen I games, I think I now see the "intended" path a bit more clearly. I posted it in my original post.
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EDIT: Okay, so getting re-familiar with the Gen I games, I think I now see the "intended" path a bit more clearly. I posted it in my original post.
You still want to bold Drowzee (Route 11), Magnemite (Route 10 which you can get to before you get Flash), and possibly Voltorb and Venonat if you're accounting for Yellow. Also, you get Cut after going through eight routes: 1-6 + 24 and 25 (to get the ticket)
With confirmation of Walking Wake's typing, I am now all in on my conspiracy theory that slither wing was originally designed to be bug/dragon but they decided that the scarlet paradoxes were already slaying so hard that they couldn't make 3 of them dragons (not counting the raidons), and so they nerfed the little slithery guy. :(
And just to twist the knide they made it part fighting, the most overrepresented paradox type :P
And just to twist the knide they made it part fighting, the most overrepresented paradox type :P
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(Felt like my reply was a better fit for this thread than the little annoyances one)
I’m going to go ahead and spoiler it since I mention some the newly announced stuff from yesterday, but my thinking on this whole thing is:
I’m going to go ahead and spoiler it since I mention some the newly announced stuff from yesterday, but my thinking on this whole thing is:
It all connects to Terapagos/the disk creature.
200 years ago, Heath’s expedition ventured into Area Zero. During this expedition, they encountered various Paradox Pokémon, which I believe were manifested by Terapagos, and may have been extrapolated from the imagination of some previous explorer of Area Zero. (People have been trying to reach the bottom of Area Zero for about 2,000 years, after all, so there’s been a lot of opportunities for people to come within range of Terapagos’s area of effect.)
Seeing these creatures spurred the imagination of one of the explorers even further, prompting them to sketch out another hypothetical entity, which Terapagos would eventually manifest as Walking Wake/Iron Leaves.
The expedition team took notes and sketches about the Paradox Pokémon that they encountered, and recorded them in the Scarlet/Violet Book.
As a child, Prof. Sada/Turo was fascinated by the Scarlet/Violet Book and its tales of mysterious creatures that seemed ancient/futuristic.
Once Sada/Turo reached adulthood, became a professor, and received funding to investigate Area Zero, they discovered the power of Terapagos, and used it to invent Tera Orbs, as well as their “time machine.” But the time machine, being powered by Terapagos, doesn’t actually manipulate time, it simply channels and directs Terapagos’s manifestation power.
Since the ancient/future Pokémon illustrated in the SV Book are what Sada/Turo dreamed of finding, the “time machine” powered by Terapagos continues to produce more of them. That’s why these Paradox Pokémon are appearing again now — because Sada/Turo was inspired by the depictions of them in the SV Book, and those depictions are based on what Heath’s group encountered 200 years prior.
200 years ago, Heath’s expedition ventured into Area Zero. During this expedition, they encountered various Paradox Pokémon, which I believe were manifested by Terapagos, and may have been extrapolated from the imagination of some previous explorer of Area Zero. (People have been trying to reach the bottom of Area Zero for about 2,000 years, after all, so there’s been a lot of opportunities for people to come within range of Terapagos’s area of effect.)
Seeing these creatures spurred the imagination of one of the explorers even further, prompting them to sketch out another hypothetical entity, which Terapagos would eventually manifest as Walking Wake/Iron Leaves.
The expedition team took notes and sketches about the Paradox Pokémon that they encountered, and recorded them in the Scarlet/Violet Book.
As a child, Prof. Sada/Turo was fascinated by the Scarlet/Violet Book and its tales of mysterious creatures that seemed ancient/futuristic.
Once Sada/Turo reached adulthood, became a professor, and received funding to investigate Area Zero, they discovered the power of Terapagos, and used it to invent Tera Orbs, as well as their “time machine.” But the time machine, being powered by Terapagos, doesn’t actually manipulate time, it simply channels and directs Terapagos’s manifestation power.
Since the ancient/future Pokémon illustrated in the SV Book are what Sada/Turo dreamed of finding, the “time machine” powered by Terapagos continues to produce more of them. That’s why these Paradox Pokémon are appearing again now — because Sada/Turo was inspired by the depictions of them in the SV Book, and those depictions are based on what Heath’s group encountered 200 years prior.
According to the commentary on Scarlet's recent GDQ run, there's something off about Violet.
- Violet lags constantly compared to Scarlet. The extra lag is seemingly unrelated to loading Miraidon's model instead of Koraidon, as it happens even before you get the mount.
- There's a misplaced loading zone behind a building in Area Zero that's absent in Scarlet.
- Professor Sada's Pokemon have fixed IVs like every other boss, but Professor Turo's have random IVs (except for Iron Valiant, if I recall).
- This isn't mentioned in the run, but to my eyes a lot of the cutscenes seem designed around Koraidon and not Miraidon. The scenes where the mount licks Penny just straight-up don't make sense with Miraidon because it doesn't have a tongue, and the scene in the prologue where the mount picks you up and jumps out of the pit looks really weird with Miraidon, since it jumps and lands as if it were standing on the ground with legs, which it doesn't do in Ultimate Mode.
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The "time travel" aesthetic, regardless of the Truth of what is happening with them, of the paradoxes honestly feels like it made more sense with the Past paradoxes too.
Like the entire area has a very "place from the ancient past, untouched by time" vibe, which feels appropriate with vague dinosaurian weirdos and.....less, so, than Robots. All the science-y bits are from modern incursions (the labs, the time machine, the ai). There is a hinted element of scifi present with the mysterious plate unearthed, but beyond that thee expedition team finding robots feels weird in a different, kind of unintended way.
Though I will admit robotic futuristic creatures wandering around an otherwise untouched land does sell "paradox" as OOParts more so give and take I guess.
Like the entire area has a very "place from the ancient past, untouched by time" vibe, which feels appropriate with vague dinosaurian weirdos and.....less, so, than Robots. All the science-y bits are from modern incursions (the labs, the time machine, the ai). There is a hinted element of scifi present with the mysterious plate unearthed, but beyond that thee expedition team finding robots feels weird in a different, kind of unintended way.
Though I will admit robotic futuristic creatures wandering around an otherwise untouched land does sell "paradox" as OOParts more so give and take I guess.
IIRC Masuda has actually said that this is how they do it; they start with one version and then work out the differences later in development. But the interview I’m thinking of was many years ago so it’s also possible that the process has changed since then, especially with version differences becoming more pronounced.
I kind of came to a similar conclusion myself. For as much as I like the variety of the ancient Paradoxes, I feel like the robotic future Paradoxes have a more visually consistent identity which more firmly distinguishes them from the regular Pokémon that wander around Area Zero. I remember thinking it made a lot more sense for Arven to see the giant Iron Treads Titan and be like “Is this even a Pokémon?!” than it did in regards to Great Tusk which is just… a big furry Donphan? I can see why chatacters in-universe might be a little perplexed by robotic versions of existing Pokémon, but nothing about the ancient Paradoxes strikes me as being too outside the realm of possibility for Pokémon biology.
I wonder if there is a canon depiction of the regions, would it only have access to one version's Pokemon at a time, or would it have a bit of both like the TV anime? It would imply that the entire Paldea Pokedex exists within the region, but we don't get any hints without trading or knowing in advance.
I thought that the plot twist fits more thematically in Violet.
In addition Penny mentions the 'Raidon "drooled on her after licking her: "Blech... It drooled all over me. What even IS that Pokémon anyway?"
Makes sense for Koraidon, but since I saw that scene with Miraidon I couldn't help but think "Penny, don't be silly, it's a robot, that's not drool... it's battery acid!"
It's been hinted at several times that each Pokemon game occur in their own separate pocket universe so there's no true "canon" choice.
- First time I think this idea was reference was in Black & White. In Opelucid City in Drayden's house there's an NPC trying to make a time machine work (sadly I have no footage from White Version of this. In White Version the guy is named Thyme who wants to use a time machine his dad (Bach) made to go back to he past to undo mistakes he made. In Black Version it's actually Bach who you talk with but that's all I know; I'm going to guess he's making a time machine in order to see how his son has grown in the future). To complete the time machine they need a Pokemon with Charge from the other version, both mentioning an Opelucid City from "another world" (Thyme describes it as "old-timey", guessing Bach would describe it as "futuristic"?). After showing him the Pokemon he tries to connect with his relative (Thyme tries apologizing for something; not sure what Bach says), but despite the connection nothing changes but for your help gives you a Cell Battery (Thyme then says instead of regretting the past he's going to focus on the present; guessing Bach would say instead of worrying about the future he'll focus on the present). Eitherway, both suggest that both White & Black version are their own worlds (and also oddly that Black is the past of White?). There may also be something with White Forest and Black City as I know you can trade NPCs between both of them.
- Than I think the next instance is in ORAS's Delta Episode. The original plan to get rid of the meteor is teleporting it somewhere else via a Dimensional Link Cable. However Zinnia destroys it. Her reasoning? Sure we'll save "our" world, but she somehow knows the meteor would appear in front of another Pokemon world (hinting it at being the world of Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald) that wouldn't be able to stop it and be destroyed. Thus she forces the player to help with her plans. It's hinted at that the firing of the Ultimate Weapon apparently split the timeline between old universe and Mega universe.
- Sun, Moon, Ultra Sun, and Ultra Moon had dimension travelling as a theme so the idea of versions being different Pokemon worlds is mentioned. Subtlety via the story differences between the original SM and USUM, than there's travelling to "another" Alola where the time of day is swapped and when in that world you can get another Cosmog from the Lake of the Sunne (Moon/Ultra Moon) or Lake of the Moone (Sun/Ultra Sun). Oh, and than there was Episode Rainbow Rocket in USUM where a Giovanni from a universe he succeeded and gained power to travel through Ultra Wormholes. He used this power to travel to other dimensions where the other game villain team bosses were about to succeed in their goals (apparently they're all from dimensions where the protag didn't exist) to go on a multi-dimensional conquest spree starting with USUM. Notable multi-world moments include Archie and Maxie (who are in their old RSE designs instead of their new ORAS design since all the games now take place on the general Mega Timeline) arguing with one another because they defeated the other in their dimension. We also had Colress mocking Ghetsis as the Ghetsis in USUM is based on one before B2W2, Ghetsis recognizing him as a scientist working from Team Plasma while Colress tells him he despised working for him before sending him back to the dimension he was pulled from.
Yeah, that's the problem here.
The time machine, Area Zero's environment, and how your 'Raidon acts in cutscenes feel like they make more sense in Scarlet.
BUT the twist with the AI Professor and how the 'Raidon works as a mechanic feels like they make more sense in Violet.
They had two polar opposite themes and tried to combine them so they didn't have to make too many changes between versions, but doing so only made things feel like they either fit or were out-of-place this time around.
There's also the somewhat common scifi trope of of having preexisting advanced tech discovered relatively recently. Which would explain how an older expedition also found robots but then probably breaks the idea of actually linking to the future (since, robot or not, these mons were at their peak at this location in the past). The idea of an advanced precursor civilization is mentioned by Iron Bundle's description, and only by that one mon.
I think this is a matter of the designs needing to be recognizable to the player for comparison, when this could be sold if Great Tusk and Co. had more/more dramatic differences from their base designs: if you assume Arven weren't familiar with megas, his comment would make sense for something like Roaring Moon, which has much less of a direct resemblance to Salamence than something like Great Tusk does to Donphan.
I will argue this aesthetic comes back into making sense at the bottom layer with the Crystal Caverns, which have a more traditional-sci-fi feeling to the aesthetic while the upper levels are more "Lost World" in look. This would also align with some like Iron Moth being suggested as Alien machines even in their own time (albeit Moth I believe is only in the upper levels). Where I think this becomes a harder sell is in the conflict of them having the potential to escape the crater. The AI Professor will specifically cite the Donphan Paradox of your version that became the Quaking Earth Titan as the example of concern, but in Violet, many of the Future Paradoxes can fly (Moth, Jugulis), so I don't get why they haven't been a concern prior; by comparison, Flutter Mane only appears in the lower areas of Area Zero's dark cave, which inclines me to assume it can't stay in the sunlight like most Ghosts can't in SV, while Roaring Moon spawns in a Cave at the mid-point that it can't get out of, which I take to mean it can't find an open route to where it could fly out anyway at its size (funnily, something Great Tusk barreling out of the Underground could allow in their respective escapes)
The Violet Paradox Pokemon could also be referencing the idea of an out-of-place artifact, a manmade object found that is old enough to be considered an artifact yet its design and/or build is something which either is from someplace else in the world that wouldn't have anyway of getting there or, more important to this discussion, is or requiring technology not thought developed at that point. You could possibly describe these artifacts as a literal representation of a "paradox". And while all these artifacts of course have a more mundane explanation to their presence (hints that there was more travelling/communicating between cultures than previously thought, the technology was actually possible but just required extreme amounts of detail and engineering, etc.), scifi loves to use this trope for time travelling plots.
Also we know most if not everything the Occulture magazine says is BS.
I could see the Future Paradox Pokemon being a bit easier to keep wrangled being they're machines. Moth and Jugulis don't fly out because they're either following programming to patrol their designated territory or the research stations are giving off a signal which draws in and possibly orders the Future Paradox Pokemon not to escape. Of course this does present two question the game isn't interested in answering:
1. How do the writers of the Occulture magazine know about these Pokemon? At some point a member of each of the Paradox Pokemon that we know have apparently escaped and been reported, yet only the Occulture magazine seemingly recorded these reports. What happened to these wayward Paradox Pokemon? Are we to presume the Professor went out and got them before anyone noticed?
2. Then we have the Quaking Titan. Not only does it bring up the question how Paradox Pokemon like it has escaped, but also a reminder that a member of this species was also seen 200 years ago! Now that was back in Area Zero, but if the Paradox Pokemon existed even back then, why is it just now they're escaping? Yes, I guess now there's a LOT of them due to the Professor going Time Machine catching crazy, but either there's a way that the Paradox Pokemon are being contained (for the most part) that we're not being told about or there should be batches of Paradox Pokemon who have escaped Area Zero (in despite of any containment attempt).
It's meant to show Nemona is both an overachiever but over exhausts herself. I don't want to use the word "try-hard" as she's not being edgy of anything, but I'd say she would be the more "friendlier" version of that idea. She's SO into battling because of a natural talent for it, plus it being hard to make friends due to people being intimidated by her, she just goes all in.
- She's constantly tired and out of breath because she's running around training dozens of Pokemon at a time, likely also trying out new battling strategies and finding that PERFECT Pokemon (as she's also a perfectionist).
- The brace is meant to be a sports brace you see athletes sometimes wearing when training or casually out doing things. They're meant to prevent injury from overexerting. Nemona wears a wrist one around her Pokeball throwing arm as not to accidentally twist it too much/the wrong way and give herself a sprain.
- Being bad at Pokeball throwing is just a quirk they gave her I guess to humanize her? If I were to analyze anything from it, it could be that despite her natural talent for training Pokemon and her healthy physique, she's just not well coordinated if a bit clumsy. Not her fault, could just be the way her brain is wired, but still possibly an embarrassing trait she feels about herself (maybe she wears the brace because it helps her ball throwing).
I think it just has high concentrated spawn rates. Like a lot of the spawners across Paldea are in Area 0 specifically. So it's constantly spitting out a ton of Pokemon at you in an somewhat closed area.
When I was hunting for a 3-segment Dunsparce (not shiny) i kept going backa and forth in that cave where they spawned and found a shiny espathra and shiny gible and thats probably because i just kept tripping the like 12 spawners that are in that small chunk of cliffside. And the "upper side" is also fairly dense in Pokemon.
I remember reading that Area Zero has half as many spawners as the rest of the overworld combined. I found two shinies there just while beating the story mode. It's more likely that spawns are just much more common there, and thus shinies are as well.
But hey, maybe it does have an intrinsically higher shiny spawn rate! I don't actually know.
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Just realized this:
Flutter Mane & Roaring Moon are exclusive to Scarlet. Misdreavus & Bagon are exlcusive to Violet.
Iron Thorns & Iron Jugulis are exclusive to Violet. Larvitar & Deino are exclusive to Scarlet.
Why GF? Like, just swap Misdreavus for Drifloon, Bagon for Larvitar, and Deino for Dreepy and it would make sense.
Flutter Mane & Roaring Moon are exclusive to Scarlet. Misdreavus & Bagon are exlcusive to Violet.
Iron Thorns & Iron Jugulis are exclusive to Violet. Larvitar & Deino are exclusive to Scarlet.
Why GF? Like, just swap Misdreavus for Drifloon, Bagon for Larvitar, and Deino for Dreepy and it would make sense.
They probably did it on purpose
But why? Neither the normal nor the Paradox Pokemon hint that the other exists, nor is there something to gain for having both the normal and Paradox Pokemon thus making it an extra challenge. There is no reason to do this switch cause it's not like their equivalent of each other. "Man, sucks I can't normally get Flutter Mane, but at least I can get Mismagius"! In addition, if you had all the normal version of the Paradox Pokemon in the same version, you can have a group spawn in Area Zero somewhere to hint why there's a Paradox "relative" of that Pokemon.