I think a pretty straightforward way to define lockable conditions is "anything that stays on the field regardless of what mons switch out". Basically anything that isn't tied to a specific mon. Taunt is tied to the target, Imprison is tied to the user, but Screens aren't tied to anything.
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Project Metagame Workshop
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
STAB only
Idea: Pokemon can only learn moves in their default that are normally STAB. For example, Tinkaton can only use its Fairy and Steel moves, and Espathra could only use its psychic type moves. Pokemon that change type on evo can keep their pre-evolutions moves. For example, Scizor would keep all of the flying moves that scyther knows, but not the ones that it knows.
How this changes the meta: Sets become a lot more predictable, therefore, options are even more important than normal, so is the surprise factor.
"Buffed" Pokemon: No Pokemon is actually buffed as they all lost coverage without any compensation, but some Pokemon are less nerfed than others. Most normal type Pokemon get "buffed" since they keep access to tera blast, protect subsitute and a lot of other useful moves. Other buffed Pokemon include Regieleki, since it doesn't normally rely on coverage that much anyways. Most of the "Buffed" Pokemon are the Pokemon that don't rely on any coverage whatsoever or have pre-evos with differing types like the eeveelutions, rotoms, and scizor. Other types with buffing moves also get heavily buffed, like Psychic types with calm mind, Dark types with nasty plot, and Fighting types with bulk up and detect. Zoroark has a great surprise factor, which will help it as it messes with the predictability of most sets, keeping opponents guessing.
Nerfed Pokemon: Pokemon that rely on coverage like Gyarados would be severely nerfed as it loses access to dragon dance, ice fang, earthquake, crunch, and tera flying tera blast. Same with Mons like Tinkaton, Great Tusk and Dragapult.
Potential Bans: Flutter Mane, and a lot of the other Paradox Pokemon, since a lot of them just have really good stats and type combos. Chi Yu and Chien Pao, as they don't rely on their coverage, and have useful moves like Chi Yu getting flame Charge. Annihilape has the amazing offensive type combo of ghost and fighting where only Hisuian Zoroark doesn't take at least neutral, as well as keeping drain punch, rage fist, bulk up, shadow punch, and even counter could be used.
Idea: Pokemon can only learn moves in their default that are normally STAB. For example, Tinkaton can only use its Fairy and Steel moves, and Espathra could only use its psychic type moves. Pokemon that change type on evo can keep their pre-evolutions moves. For example, Scizor would keep all of the flying moves that scyther knows, but not the ones that it knows.
How this changes the meta: Sets become a lot more predictable, therefore, options are even more important than normal, so is the surprise factor.
"Buffed" Pokemon: No Pokemon is actually buffed as they all lost coverage without any compensation, but some Pokemon are less nerfed than others. Most normal type Pokemon get "buffed" since they keep access to tera blast, protect subsitute and a lot of other useful moves. Other buffed Pokemon include Regieleki, since it doesn't normally rely on coverage that much anyways. Most of the "Buffed" Pokemon are the Pokemon that don't rely on any coverage whatsoever or have pre-evos with differing types like the eeveelutions, rotoms, and scizor. Other types with buffing moves also get heavily buffed, like Psychic types with calm mind, Dark types with nasty plot, and Fighting types with bulk up and detect. Zoroark has a great surprise factor, which will help it as it messes with the predictability of most sets, keeping opponents guessing.
Nerfed Pokemon: Pokemon that rely on coverage like Gyarados would be severely nerfed as it loses access to dragon dance, ice fang, earthquake, crunch, and tera flying tera blast. Same with Mons like Tinkaton, Great Tusk and Dragapult.
Potential Bans: Flutter Mane, and a lot of the other Paradox Pokemon, since a lot of them just have really good stats and type combos. Chi Yu and Chien Pao, as they don't rely on their coverage, and have useful moves like Chi Yu getting flame Charge. Annihilape has the amazing offensive type combo of ghost and fighting where only Hisuian Zoroark doesn't take at least neutral, as well as keeping drain punch, rage fist, bulk up, shadow punch, and even counter could be used.
So after some thinking, I came up with a potential alternative to how Offense could be handled. And that is to give the boost to the moves themselves).Thank you guys.
So from what I'm seeing, here is a chart for how Offensive boosts would work.
If you wanted to check how much Atk/SpA of a Pokemon, you'd take both its typings, first add the matching columns, then add the columns in total. If a column has =0, that column is always set to 0. Mono type Pokemon counting as double.
As a Fighting/Ghost type, Annihilape would get +20 Atk/SpA. Many of the things that resist or are immune to Ghost are weak to Fighting, so in the summation it would count as +0.
Fighting =0 - - - - =0 - +5 - +5 +5 +5 =0 +10 - =0 =0 +5 Ghost +10 - - - - - - - - - =0 - - =0 - +5 - - Sum 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 +5 0 +5 0 +5 0 0 0 0 0 +5 +20
As a mono Electric type, you just double the values, treating Pikachu like a Electric/Electric type if you will.
Electric - - =0 +5 +5 - - - +10 =0 - - - - +5 - - - Electric - - =0 +5 +5 - - - +10 =0 - - - - +5 - - - Sum 0 0 0 +10 +10 - - - +20 0 0 0 0 0 +10 - - - +50
How does everyone feel about this?
Observations:
This thing becomes monstrous. In this Meta, Iron Leaves gets one of the highest BSTs in the game. Defensively it gets +80 in Def/SpD. Offensively it gets +50 Atk/SpA. With that, it receives a 90/180/168/120/188/104, having a BST of 850.
For comparison,has +60 Def/SpD and +45 Atk/SpA. Giving it 100/180/175/130/160/135 and a BST of 880, which is also pretty high considering
gets +35 Atk/SpA and +40 Def/SpD
A lot of current Ubers surprisingly do not have that high of stats, relative to other Pokemon in the Metagame. Some of these Pokemon definitely could be unbanned, especially if Tera is banned. A lot more things can break past Annihilape when it can't Tera and not keeping up with other Pokemon. Espathra is very similar, having to rely on Dazzling Gleam and Shadow Ball to break past Dark or Steel types, as well as being left behind stat wise too.
Scyther gets +45 in Atk/SpA and +60 to Def/SpD, giving it 70/155/140/100/140/105 and a BST of 710. This makes Scyther not only stronger than its own evolutions (in terms of BST), but makes it one of the most buffed Pokemon in the Metagame. It's also one of the strongest NU Pokemon, being significantly stronger than Charizard.
Likewise in the PU tier, you have massive glow ups from Pokemon like Gogoat, Lilligant, and Leafeon receiving massive +70 offenses and +50 defenses. Grass in general gets massively buffed this Meta because it has several weaknesses (most in the game) and are resisted by lot of types (tied with bug and fighting in terms of bonuses for highest amount if you're mono type)
Because of Grass's massive boost and Arceus's vanilla stats, Arceus Grass will have the highest BST in this meta when released, having 120/190/170/190/170/120 and a BST of 960 (which is in fact still less than regular Eternamax Eternatus (in case you were wondering Eternamax's new BST is 1205)).
Oh btw, Ting-lu virtually has the same bulk as current Blissey with its ability.
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (145 SpD) Blissey: 70-83 (9.8 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin (140 SpD) Ting-Lu: 54-64 (10.5 - 12.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
It effectively has 155/185/203 thanks to Vessel of Ruin in this Meta. 145 Atk as well.
So for example, if you have Abomasnow with Blizzard, Giga Drain, and Earth Power, those moves would gain more BP depending on how many things resist that move. Blizzard would get 110+(bonus)x4, Giga Drain would get 75+(bonus)x7, and Earth Power would get 90+(bonus)x4. How much the bonus should be is something that'd need to be determined but likely will be determined, though likely would be +10 with immunities also counting as double.
This fits under Commonly rejected submission types as "Meta that just bans things". And like you said, this Metagame is incredibly linear inherently.
Lineage Sharing
Idea: All the Pokemon in an evolutionary line gain access to all moves and abilities from the other mons in the line, even side evolutions, variants, and regions (if they are in gen 9). Example: Jolteon gets Eevee, Vaporeon, Flareon, Umbreon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, and Sylveon's moves and abilities. Gallade gets Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, and Iron Valiant's moves and abilities. Vice versa too. So Iron Valliant could choose Trace or Sharpness or Quark Drive.
This would be based off of gen 9 metagame with every tier below uber.
Most interesting buffs imo:
Great Tusk gains priority in Ice Shard. Also, it gains Gunk Shot, Volt Switch, Sturdy, and Quark Drive.
Iron Treads gains Ice Shard, Gunk Shot, Headlong Rush, Close Combat, Sturdy, and Protosynthesis. It could be interesting on Sun Teams.
Volcorona gains Sludge Wave, Protosynthesis, and Quark Drive. Booster Energy prior to boosting with Quiver Dance would be hard to face.
Quiver Dance = uh-oh
Inherits everything Koraidon and Miraidon has in their movepools + abilities. So, could be broken? Sun and electric teams will get more interesting now.
Salamence gains Protosynthesis, U-Turn, and Taunt. Salamence being a part volt-turn will be amazing.
Rotom + Rotom-Wash will be super interesting b/c they gain access to Air Slash, Overheat, Leaf Storm, and Blizzard.
Bullet Punch + Guts = better
Sharpness + Gallade's Movepool + Choice Band = Oomph!
Sand Stream
Amazing ability choices in Water Absorb, Flash Fire, Adaptability, Magic Bounce, and Chlorophyll is insane. It has the best movepool period. Gaining Psyshock, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Leaf Storm/Giga Drain, and Moonblast. Probably broken.
Questions for all of you: Does this idea interest any of you? Anything seems broken?
Idea: All the Pokemon in an evolutionary line gain access to all moves and abilities from the other mons in the line, even side evolutions, variants, and regions (if they are in gen 9). Example: Jolteon gets Eevee, Vaporeon, Flareon, Umbreon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, and Sylveon's moves and abilities. Gallade gets Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, and Iron Valiant's moves and abilities. Vice versa too. So Iron Valliant could choose Trace or Sharpness or Quark Drive.
This would be based off of gen 9 metagame with every tier below uber.
Most interesting buffs imo:
Questions for all of you: Does this idea interest any of you? Anything seems broken?
This sounds like a bunch of weather wars torkoal will always win, as its stupid slow. Then when everyone is using torkoal its just sun teams go brrrr
Lineage Sharing
Idea: All the Pokemon in an evolutionary line gain access to all moves and abilities from the other mons in the line, even side evolutions, variants, and regions (if they are in gen 9). Example: Jolteon gets Eevee, Vaporeon, Flareon, Umbreon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, and Sylveon's moves and abilities. Gallade gets Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, and Iron Valiant's moves and abilities. Vice versa too. So Iron Valliant could choose Trace or Sharpness or Quark Drive.
This would be based off of gen 9 metagame with every tier below uber.
Most interesting buffs imo:
Great Tusk gains priority in Ice Shard. Also, it gains Gunk Shot, Volt Switch, Sturdy, and Quark Drive.
Iron Treads gains Ice Shard, Gunk Shot, Headlong Rush, Close Combat, Sturdy, and Protosynthesis. It could be interesting on Sun Teams.
Volcorona gains Sludge Wave, Protosynthesis, and Quark Drive. Booster Energy prior to boosting with Quiver Dance would be hard to face.
Quiver Dance = uh-oh
Inherits everything Koraidon and Miraidon has in their movepools + abilities. So, could be broken? Sun and electric teams will get more interesting now.
Salamence gains Protosynthesis, U-Turn, and Taunt. Salamence being a part volt-turn will be amazing.
Rotom + Rotom-Wash will be super interesting b/c they gain access to Air Slash, Overheat, Leaf Storm, and Blizzard.
Bullet Punch + Guts = better
Sharpness + Gallade's Movepool + Choice Band = Oomph!
Sand Stream
Amazing ability choices in Water Absorb, Flash Fire, Adaptability, Magic Bounce, and Chlorophyll is insane. It has the best movepool period. Gaining Psyshock, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Leaf Storm/Giga Drain, and Moonblast. Probably broken.
Questions for all of you: Does this idea interest any of you? Anything seems broken?
Interesting idea, but it feels like there's not much reason to play it over Convergence or Inheritance.
The biggest problem with this, to me, is that too few Pokemon benefit from the rule, and it's mostly a rich get richer metagame. Aside from niche options made more viable like Eeveelutions and Gallade/Gardevoir, all this really serves to do is make the Paradox Pokemon, already some of the best, even better. Rotom-Mow being able to Blizzard is cool, but at the end of the day what this does is buff Pokemon like Great Tusk, Iron Moth, Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant while powercreeping out a lot of the answers that make these threats balanced to begin with-- and if you ban the Paradox Pokemon, you're left with essentially no OM to work with. It's both limiting and relatively unbalanced, imo
Lineage Sharing
Idea: All the Pokemon in an evolutionary line gain access to all moves and abilities from the other mons in the line, even side evolutions, variants, and regions (if they are in gen 9). Example: Jolteon gets Eevee, Vaporeon, Flareon, Umbreon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, and Sylveon's moves and abilities. Gallade gets Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, and Iron Valiant's moves and abilities. Vice versa too. So Iron Valliant could choose Trace or Sharpness or Quark Drive.
This would be based off of gen 9 metagame with every tier below uber.
Most interesting buffs imo:
Great Tusk gains priority in Ice Shard. Also, it gains Gunk Shot, Volt Switch, Sturdy, and Quark Drive.
Iron Treads gains Ice Shard, Gunk Shot, Headlong Rush, Close Combat, Sturdy, and Protosynthesis. It could be interesting on Sun Teams.
Volcorona gains Sludge Wave, Protosynthesis, and Quark Drive. Booster Energy prior to boosting with Quiver Dance would be hard to face.
Quiver Dance = uh-oh
Inherits everything Koraidon and Miraidon has in their movepools + abilities. So, could be broken? Sun and electric teams will get more interesting now.
Salamence gains Protosynthesis, U-Turn, and Taunt. Salamence being a part volt-turn will be amazing.
Rotom + Rotom-Wash will be super interesting b/c they gain access to Air Slash, Overheat, Leaf Storm, and Blizzard.
Bullet Punch + Guts = better
Sharpness + Gallade's Movepool + Choice Band = Oomph!
Sand Stream
Amazing ability choices in Water Absorb, Flash Fire, Adaptability, Magic Bounce, and Chlorophyll is insane. It has the best movepool period. Gaining Psyshock, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Leaf Storm/Giga Drain, and Moonblast. Probably broken.
Questions for all of you: Does this idea interest any of you? Anything seems broken?
In addition to the concerns about too little getting buffed a lot is very questionable on what counts.
- Alternative evolution branches, like the Eevees?
- Alternative forms that you can freely swap between, like Rotom-Wash?
- Alternative forms that you can't freely swap between, like Alolan-Raticate?
- Carbink and Diancie?
- Manaphy and Phione?
- Kyurem, Kyurem-White, Kyurem-Black, Zekrom and Reshiram?
- Calyrex, its two forms and the two horses?
- Floette and the unreleased Floette Eternal?
- Plusle and Minun?
- Nidoking and Nidoqueen?
- Mew and Mewtwo?
- Pikachu and Mimikyu?
- Escavalier and Accelgor?
Not all of these pokemons are in SV and many of them are in Ubers but having a metagame where the ruleset just isn't set in stone and is based on lore interpretations is, really, really wacky. I don't like that these questions can be asked in the first place and I don't think a list of yes/no answers to these questions would be enough; OMs need rules, not an invite list to who gets to be in the mechanic.
Smearglemons!
Concept: Everyone gets every move!
Potential Bans and Threats:
Miraidon and Koraidon will be banned
Shed Tail, Rage Fist, Last Respects, Baton Pass, Revival Blessing, Belly Drum, and Spore will be banned to start
Threats:
Sylveon has access to Pixilate + Boomburst, making it a supersuper scary threat
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Tera Fairy
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Earth Power/Sandsear Storm
Gumshoos becomes a niche (when I say niche I mean NICHE) threat with Adaptability Tera Normal ESpeed.
Meow and Ting-Lu can become better Spikers with access to Ceaseless Edge
Collision Course is great on Offensive Great Tusk and Mixed/Physical Iron Valiant
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy/Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Torch Song
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
Torch Song just lets Iron Moth steamroll most likely from start to finish
Both Physical and Special Dragapult are kinda crazy with the STAB combo of Poltergeist/Glaive Rush and Astral Barrage/Dynamax Cannon respectively
QtbA:
Why would you play this over BH/STABmons? (Genuine question)
Concept: Everyone gets every move!
Potential Bans and Threats:
Miraidon and Koraidon will be banned
Shed Tail, Rage Fist, Last Respects, Baton Pass, Revival Blessing, Belly Drum, and Spore will be banned to start
Threats:
Sylveon has access to Pixilate + Boomburst, making it a supersuper scary threatSylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Tera Fairy
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Earth Power/Sandsear Storm
Gumshoos becomes a niche (when I say niche I mean NICHE) threat with Adaptability Tera Normal ESpeed. Meow and Ting-Lu can become better Spikers with access to Ceaseless EdgeCollision Course is great on Offensive Great Tusk and Mixed/Physical Iron Valiant
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy/Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Torch Song
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
Torch Song just lets Iron Moth steamroll most likely from start to finish
Both Physical and Special Dragapult are kinda crazy with the STAB combo of Poltergeist/Glaive Rush and Astral Barrage/Dynamax Cannon respectively
QtbA:
Why would you play this over BH/STABmons? (Genuine question)
Fusionmons (I hope this hasn't been submitted before)Premise: When a Pokémon is nicknamed to a different Pokémon's name they "Fuse". Fusing would combine the mons first and second typing, combine move sets, average the mons stats (Ex: Base form Atk + Nickname mon Atk= Answer/ 2 = Fusion Atk stat (Rounded Up)), and change the mons ability to the nickname mons ability(s). (A sort of combo of CrossEvo and Inheritance)
Example:
+ 
= A Dragon/Fighting Type with 90/135/81/88/81/118 for stats and the ability of Quark Drive. The Fusion could also be reversed for a new typing and ability but the same stats, in this case a Fairy/Dark type with the ability Protosynthesis.Example#2:
+ = A Fighting/Fairy Type with 83/88/68/113/100/75 for stats and the abilities Cute Charm/Pixelate. Flipping the fusion would make it a Fairy/Steel Type with the same stats but the abilities Steadfast/Inner Focus/Justified.Possible Bans (Or Restrictions if possible):
- Base OU Bans**
Extreme Speed*
Gigaton Hammer*- Imposter*
Baton Pass
Huge Power*
Pure Power*
Moody
Arena Trap
Shadow Tag- Dragapult*
Garchomp*
Slaking*?- More that i haven't thought about yet
This was a Meta previously called Frantic Fusions. Sorry to burst your bubble.
I imagine the difference this is supposed to have with Sketchmons is that you aren't limited to one move, I guess it could work, but it may end being too redundant to have when Sketch, Stab and BH already exists. You would really have to try hard on selling the idea.Smearglemons!
Concept: Everyone gets every move!
Potential Bans and Threats:
Miraidon and Koraidon will be banned
Shed Tail, Rage Fist, Last Respects, Baton Pass, Revival Blessing, Belly Drum, and Spore will be banned to start
Threats:
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Tera Fairy
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Earth Power/Sandsear Storm
Collision Course is great on Offensive Great Tusk and Mixed/Physical Iron Valiant
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy/Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Torch Song
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
Torch Song just lets Iron Moth steamroll most likely from start to finish
Both Physical and Special Dragapult are kinda crazy with the STAB combo of Poltergeist/Glaive Rush and Astral Barrage/Dynamax Cannon respectively
QtbA:
Why would you play this over BH/STABmons? (Genuine question)
It is actually surprising that you just come up with the exact same premise as Frantic Fusions, that format never got approved tho, at the end of the day is just Inheritance with slightly different stats.
Premise: When a Pokémon is nicknamed to a different Pokémon's name they "Fuse". Fusing would combine the mons first and second typing, combine move sets, average the mons stats (Ex: Base form Atk + Nickname mon Atk= Answer/ 2 = Fusion Atk stat (Rounded Up)), and change the mons ability to the nickname mons ability(s). (A sort of combo of CrossEvo and Inheritance)
Example:
Example#2:
Possible Bans (Or Restrictions if possible):
(* = Restrict if possible, ** = Besides Palafin, ? = Could averaging nerf it?)
- Base OU Bans**
- More that i haven't thought about yet
A lot of what you said just seems a bit overworded and a bit rude (lot of nitpicking). But I'll answer these questions and clear up some stuff anyway. Even though, a couple of them didn't even need to be asked.
I could go over these others mons that haven't been released or aren't gen 9 (that we know of). Carbink and Diancie, Manaphy and Phione, Nidoking and Nidoqueen, Mew and Mewtwo are actually something that I didn't even think of. I would lean towards yes because it adds in more variety and complexity. Plusle and Minun, Escavalier and Accelgor, nah. Just a trade evolution mechanic. The Kyurem one, that's ubers.
Basically the idea came from seeing Flygon and Jolteon, and wondering why Flygon doesn't have Trapinch's Arena Trap ability and why Jolteon doesn't have the same moves as Flareon (etc.). Then, just came up with the idea "would if they did?" Would if all these mons did have access to their evolutionary lines moves and abilities. Then I took it further with variants, forms, etc. True, this idea is way better in National Dex. But, it's not an idea I'll go anywhere with, just wanted to see other people's thoughts on it and to see if anyone else liked it like I do. Apparently not so that's sad lol
Actually, they are not just related lore wise, it's 100% confirmed. Great Tusk and Iron Treads are based on Donphan and are linked to Donphan which is why they are known as its paradox forms. I don't know how that could be confusing or taken as just lore. Unless you mean, they don't evolve into or from Donphan then, I get it. But I figured it would be boring if it was just the direct evolution line without even including side evolutions or forms/variants. Also, they don't have to be the same dex number either, that usually how it goes but gamefreak has been doing things differently a lot since gen 6 so, that pattern is basically thrown out the window.
Pikachu and Mimikyu aren't related at all. Mimikyu is just a ghost that copies pikachu out of jealousy, that's it. They aren't related. You see, Paradox mons are related due to being distant or future relatives of the mons we know, regions variants are related from being bred differently (look into Tauros and Paldea), and forms are just that mon but different. So, again, I don't see how this could be confusing.
I could go over these others mons that haven't been released or aren't gen 9 (that we know of). Carbink and Diancie, Manaphy and Phione, Nidoking and Nidoqueen, Mew and Mewtwo are actually something that I didn't even think of. I would lean towards yes because it adds in more variety and complexity. Plusle and Minun, Escavalier and Accelgor, nah. Just a trade evolution mechanic. The Kyurem one, that's ubers.
Exactly, why even go into them then? It just seems long winded and rude.
It's set in stone pretty well. Pokemon is pretty whacky anyway lol. A lot of these metagames in OM or out of it are based on whackiness. Take for instance LC, it's funny how Onix is in LC even though it's not little, but it's in there because its a base evolution.
Very much no. There couldn't be an argument. Plusle and Minun are a tag team, just like Magmortar/Magmar and Electivire/Electabuzz. Magma and Buzz have stats are opposites to each other for the most part and they are together a lot in the tcg, but that's it. A better argument would be the egg groups, but still no. Scyther and Kabutops, where did Kabuto go? And how come Kabutops doesn't evolve into Kleavor? Not an argument. It's just a fan theory.
Basically the idea came from seeing Flygon and Jolteon, and wondering why Flygon doesn't have Trapinch's Arena Trap ability and why Jolteon doesn't have the same moves as Flareon (etc.). Then, just came up with the idea "would if they did?" Would if all these mons did have access to their evolutionary lines moves and abilities. Then I took it further with variants, forms, etc. True, this idea is way better in National Dex. But, it's not an idea I'll go anywhere with, just wanted to see other people's thoughts on it and to see if anyone else liked it like I do. Apparently not so that's sad lol
This is a lot of lore wise things which are often up for debate I feel. Great Tusk and Donphan are two different species. They could just be different species, just happened to look the same. We’ve seen this with Dugtrio and Wugtrio. I hope that the DLC might clear some things, but AFAIK, nothing is certain. Even if arguments can be made saying that they are the same, this metagame still holds another problem.
It is too similar to metas such as Convergence and Inheritance.
I believe that the OM approval team are through with metas that give abilities and moves from others with the advent of Convergence this generation as seen below.
- Inheritance but not: A metagame that is Inheritance with one extra step. Please no more fake Inheritances.
This can pass off as a pet mod maybe, as those can be more community based and they can decide if two pokemon should be linked.
That there is any discussion at all about what does or does not count as a lineage means it is absolutely not set in stone.
When designing a ruleset for an OM, try to only look at Pokemon for what they are on a base mechanical level. Evolution, dex number, form changes, those are all explicit mechanical links. There is no mechanical link between Donphan and Great Tusk. In the lore, there's something going on between them, but as far as the game's code is concerned, they're completely unrelated.
Great Tusk and Donphan are only related in lore. Technical stuff matters more for OMs, otherwise you just end up with a Petmod based around fanfiction. You start with Great Tusk/Iron Threads and Donphan, which makes some sense, but then you go down a rabbit hole of what counts and related. Like does Kabutops relate to Genesect? Or how about Charizard and Typhlosion that oddly have same stats? Or original Eeveelutions and Beast Trio, who fans theorize as related? Or what about Mew, which is related to all Pokemon?
Diancie's X pokedex entry: A sudden transformation of Carbink, its pink, glimmering body is said to be the loveliest sight in the whole world.
Its Omega Ruby entry also is exactly the same.
This is more lore confirmation than the paradox forms themselves have. By your own logic Diancie and Carbink would be related. This is an insane slippery slope that can lead to more and more ridiculous statements. This is not a good idea for an OM.
Expanded Dexmons:
Concept: Dexmons, which is where everything gets moves from the pokemon above and below them on the NatDex list, except this time abilities are also transferrable.
Initial threats:
The Huge Power: Greninja and Talonflame gain access to Huge Power from Diggersby, potentially creating two incredibly fast and incredibly powerful wallbreakers. This would definitely be something to think about banning early on.
Will add more later
Questions:
Does this take on Dexmons make it fresh enough to be interesting?
Concept: Dexmons, which is where everything gets moves from the pokemon above and below them on the NatDex list, except this time abilities are also transferrable.
Initial threats:
The Huge Power: Greninja and Talonflame gain access to Huge Power from Diggersby, potentially creating two incredibly fast and incredibly powerful wallbreakers. This would definitely be something to think about banning early on.
Will add more later
Questions:
Does this take on Dexmons make it fresh enough to be interesting?
OMs don’t concern NatDex stuff at all, maybe the premise should be changed to Gen 9 Dex.
This is another one of those “Inheritance but not” metas I feel. We already have Inheritance, Convergence, Cross Evolution (to a certain degree). These metas give more freedom than just limited to the 2 pokemon you happen to be next to on the dex list. Adding more of these types of metas splits the player base of them further as well.
I feel like move-giving OMs have run their course, or at least all potential ground. Between Sketchmons, Inheritance, Convergence, STABmons and Balanced Hackmons all the "You gain new toys" metas have ran their course; there's really little you can do on the "pokemon gain new moves" or even "pokemon gain new abilities" ground. There's only so many ways you can make a mon gain new abilities or moves before it starts becoming tiring, after all.
I feel like it's time to explore more different mechanics; I don't think anyone did anything that cares about the max PP of moves and how moves have different max PPs. I feel like there's a lot of ground you can cover with having the shinyness or gender of the pokemon doing something to the pokemon, like a "all shiny pokemons have their special and physical stats flipped" or a "you can only have 1 shiny pokemon per team and it gains stat buffs" or something like that.
Or even something even more avant garde; if someone had made Terrastalization as a OM back in gen 6 or 7 it'd be considered one of the classic OMs like STABmons or Balanced Hackmons. I feel like we've been pidgeonholing OM too much towards the "let's give new moves/abilities to mons" angle and not exploring all the other stuff we could be doing, I feel. We could be doing a lot more than just changing movepools around.
I've posted my metagame in the OM submission forum and got a "Could you post it on the metagame workshop to see if there's enough interest on it?" so that's why of the double post'. Presenting, Eye-To-Eye! Below is a spoilered version of my submission'
Eye-to-Eye
I've played a few testmatches with a friend since replicating it is just not targeting the wrong mon with the wrong move, and in my experience it's really dang fun. I highly recommend y'all to try it out when showdown goes back online since it's a blast. It really feels like a mix of doubles and singles while still having the four mons interact. Would y'all be interested in a meta like this?
Eye-to-Eye
Do you like the checks and counters of Singles but want to use moves only useful in Doubles? Are you turned off by the big predictions needed to play Doubles while still liking the idea of controling two pokemon at once? And more important of all, do you want tought as nails but rewarding positioning puzzles?
Then fear not, my friend! For I have the metagame for you: Eye-to-Eye! The rule is simple: You can only direct a move at the mon directly in front of your mon.
For example! Let's say your left mon is Amoongus, your right mon is Arcanine and your opponent's left mon is Chien-Pao and their right mon is Dragapult.
Amoongus can only use Spore on Chien-Pao (since they're both on the left) while Arcanine can only attack Dragapult. They can only attack the pokemon they're seeing, well, eye to eye! This rule only affects moves that target - spread moves and moves that target the self (like Rage Powder) are completely unaffected. You still can use moves onto your partner pokemon - you just can't attack diagonally anymore.
Then fear not, my friend! For I have the metagame for you: Eye-to-Eye! The rule is simple: You can only direct a move at the mon directly in front of your mon.
For example! Let's say your left mon is Amoongus, your right mon is Arcanine and your opponent's left mon is Chien-Pao and their right mon is Dragapult.
Amoongus can only use Spore on Chien-Pao (since they're both on the left) while Arcanine can only attack Dragapult. They can only attack the pokemon they're seeing, well, eye to eye! This rule only affects moves that target - spread moves and moves that target the self (like Rage Powder) are completely unaffected. You still can use moves onto your partner pokemon - you just can't attack diagonally anymore.
- Q: What is changed, exactly, mechanically? A: You know when you click Flamethrower and the game asks you what pokemon on the field to attack? In this OM you can only chose as a target the pokemon on the same side of the field as you.
- Q: What about spread moves? A: Spread moves are unchanged and still hit all the targets that they would normally.
- Q: Can you target a move on your teammate, like Pollen Puff? A: Yes.
- Q: Does Intimidate still affect both opponents? A: Yes; all abilities and items are unchanged.
- Q: What about Rage Powder and Follow Me? A: The moves work as normal. The rule only changes who you can direct the attack at when you click it, not where it will end up.
- Q: What if my opponent clicks Fly or Dive? A: The mon directly in front of the flying pokemon still has to target the flying or diving pokemon, even if that means missing.
- Q: What if my opponent is on their last pokemon and I have two? A: In this scenario you can target their last pokemon with both of yours.
- Q: What if I only have one pokemon and my opponent has two? A: In this scenario your pokemon can still only attack the pokemon right in front of it.
- Q: What about Tatsugiri + Dondozo? A: Same scenario as questions 7 and 8: Dondozo can only attack the pokemon directly in front of it while both of the opponent's pokemons can attack it.
This simple rule turns the game from a 2v2 into, essentially, two 1v1s - however there still are ways to have the two 1v1s affect eachother, leading to a gameplay completely different to anything done before.
Let's talk about some of the implications for this format.
O, the horror! If this was two different games of 1v1, it'd be fine: Armarogue can switch into the back Gastrodon and avoid the wrath of specs Iron Bundle's HPump and Gastrodon could switch into Armarogue and be safe from Tsareena. But since this is a game of Eye-To-Eye it is no longer that simple: You can't do that. This means that the Tsareena and Iron Bundle player, through their incredible positional play managed to get into a situation where neither of their stong attackers can be stopped! This makes playing with and against Stall and Hyper Offense teams much more fun as you're actively trying to gridlock them in a position like this.
That is, unless...
Let's talk about some of the implications for this format.
- Implication 1: Doubling up on an opponent's mon is no longer possible. This means Protect is nowhere near as useful and that more consistent defensive play is possible. Still, spread moves still exist and affect both of your mons so being hit by two moves in the same turn is still possible, just not as devasting.
- Implication 2: You are playing two spicy and interconnected games of Singles. This means that many things that are good in singles but aren't as good in doubles - stall, setup sweepers, etc, are now viable. On the other hand many elements that are better in doubles than in singles - elements like Trick Room, spread moves, Tailwind, etc are buffed. This leads to an exciting and new format where many more possibilities are open.
- Implication 3: Your check may be on the wrong side. This is a massive implication that can be the ruin of a careless stall team. Imagine a scenario like this:
O, the horror! If this was two different games of 1v1, it'd be fine: Armarogue can switch into the back Gastrodon and avoid the wrath of specs Iron Bundle's HPump and Gastrodon could switch into Armarogue and be safe from Tsareena. But since this is a game of Eye-To-Eye it is no longer that simple: You can't do that. This means that the Tsareena and Iron Bundle player, through their incredible positional play managed to get into a situation where neither of their stong attackers can be stopped! This makes playing with and against Stall and Hyper Offense teams much more fun as you're actively trying to gridlock them in a position like this.
That is, unless...
- Implication 4: Ally Switch now becomes a usable move. If you're gridlocked like that, with your checks on the wrong sides using Ally Switch can be a very beneficial play, allowing for very interesting situations. Some really good mons learn it, too: Armarouge, Farigiraf, Houndstone, Espathra, etc.
- Implication 5: Spread moves become much more, different. If you see the format through a Singles lens a pokemon that had to choose between Surf and Hydro Pump for their STAB now has a much more interesting choice rather than just "Do you want accuracy or power?", now asking if you wanna help your teammate (and do less damage to the mon in front of you) or use HPump and play your lane's game.
Things to keep an eye out for:
Sleep: DOU doesn't have sleep clause; in Doubles you can have both of your pokemons attack the sleeper before it puts mons to sleep, switch both of your mons out if they're both asleep for two healthy ones, etc. Here these counterplays are much more harder if not impossible to do; Sleep Clause may be needed but it's difficult to pin down right now.
Anything banned in OU that isn't banned in DOU: Since we are bringing a pace more similar to Singles to Doubles it might be worth keeping an eye out for anything deemed too good in Singles. It's early to say, but worth keeping an eye out for.
Heal Pulse & Pollen Puff: These two moves are very powerful here, even more so than in Doubles. If whatever is in front of a mon with one of these moves don't directly threaten it then they can spam these moves onto their partner, causing the partner pokemon to be practically unkillable until the healer is removed.- Amoonguss: Much of what Amoonguss wants to do in Doubles it can still do here, arguably being the most buffed mon in the tier. Amoonguss is the pokemon most capable of shattering the barrier between the two sides of the fight with Rage Powder and Pollen Puff, two extremely powerful moves in this enviroment. Add in Spore, Regenerator and the rest of its bag of tricks it can be a real menace. Definitely keep an eye out for Amoonguss.
I've played a few testmatches with a friend since replicating it is just not targeting the wrong mon with the wrong move, and in my experience it's really dang fun. I highly recommend y'all to try it out when showdown goes back online since it's a blast. It really feels like a mix of doubles and singles while still having the four mons interact. Would y'all be interested in a meta like this?
What happens if one of your Pokémon takes out the diagonal foe with a spread move before its ally can attack it?
I would assume the ally's move would fail, since if your Left Pokemon took out an opponent's Right Pokemon with a spread move, your Right Pokemon can't attack for the turn since it doesn't have any Pokemon to face Eye-to-Eye with.
Considering everything else about this meta is "the mechanics are the same, you just can't manually target the diagonal foe" then the attack would automatically redirect to the diagonal foe.
By the way, this meta sounds rad.
I should have placed that on the Ruling Q&A! Dang'. But yeah, like DrPumkinz said it'd just go to the other pokemon. That's how it would mechanically play out naturally and is in line with the Rage Powder ruling ("An attack can be redirected to do a diagonal attack, you just can't do that manually"). The mechanics are the same, you just can't manually target the diagonal foe.