Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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It's not a complex definition, it's literally the definition of the two words. A move/ability is inherently broken if it is capable of creating uncompetitive conditions in and of itself regardless of the other attributes of its users/abusers. This isn't a new idea. It's why we don't have Ninetales + Diglett cores in BW OU. It's hard to argue an offensive move could meet this criteria, other than something luck based and stat agnostic like OHKO moves.

Would you say Arena Trap is inherently broken? I'd assume the people who say Shed Tail is inherently broken would also say Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are inherently broken. Dugtrio is only C- rank in SS Ubers. How can Shadow Tag be banned in SS Ubers but Arena Trap not if both are broken? It still depends on the other attributes of the Pokemon. Dugtrio's other attributes are bad enough that it is allowed in Ubers.
 
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I am not sure what we are discussing here anymore, but I hope we can move on from the semantics discussions as they dont bring anything to the table. You may read the full reasoning for Urshifu's suspect in this thread. Note that this thread and the posts in there not only mention Wicked Blow, but also Unseen Fist, Urshifu's 130 base Attack, and the very few number of Pokemon that resist both of Urshifu's STABS.
 
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Im gonna copy past this from the viability rankings post i made some days ago

:Iron Hands: from C+ to either B- or B

Iron Hands @ Punching Glove
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

I have been using this set, 96 HP ensures you live a banded play rough from the meowster at full, and 160 speed is to trip sub dirge in an emergency, and can potentially trip corvs who invest for gambit. On this less fast-paced bulky meta, is a cool mon that can almost always kill a thing or two on his way down, tera water is cool it helps with general tankiness, and in this case is cool because Drain Punch + Punching Glove means Garga cannot set up shit in front of you. I think it's more viable than Quaquaval tbh, never been sold on the mon

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You have enough survival for a kingambit attack, and even if he teras you're still fucking him over, honestly, hands is not too bad

I raise you this set:

Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

This is just the standard speed to creep corviknight but you could run less speed with more bulk if you felt like it, 1v1 you beat any meow set, kingambit, if great tusk comes in on swords dance you can actually trade with it WITHOUT tera

0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 186-222 (38.9 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 172-204 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 366-432 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 334-394 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:blobastonished:YEESH
multiscale broken is enough to ohko back with ice punch

Ive been using it to beat dd dragapults checks in the mid game
 
Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
I kinda like Punching Glove for the tiny Iron Fist boost you get, meaning more healing on drain punch, and you somewhat retain some damage in case of burns. And tera water like I said, general defensive utility, flying is only good for eq spam, which can fuck you over with rocks damage, I think Grass could potentially work, but I'm not too sure
 
I kinda like Punching Glove for the tiny Iron Fist boost you get, meaning more healing on drain punch, and you somewhat retain some damage in case of burns. And tera water like I said, general defensive utility, flying is only good for eq spam, which can fuck you over with rocks damage, I think Grass could potentially work, but I'm not too sure
i only tera in an emergency. Usually ill keep it for something else, fighting electric some cool resistances on its own. leftovers is big i think as youre not always clicking drain punch and it can get beat down pretty fast with no recovery. i think when opponents see how little attacks do it forces switches in a panic and that gives a lot of swords dance opportunity. punching glove is neat i just dont think 1.1x is enough when the punching moves are pretty low base power, and most rocky hemlet mons are actually setup fodder for SD anyway
 
punching glove is neat i just dont think 1.1x is enough when the punching moves are pretty low base power, and most rocky hemlet mons are actually setup fodder for SD anyway
that's the thing, 1.1 from the punching glove x2 with the sd boost + 416 from max attack adamant stacks up quick, protective pads could also be cool, but don't sleep on it, like I said to finch one time, it's the side dish, you know?
 
I kinda like Punching Glove for the tiny Iron Fist boost you get, meaning more healing on drain punch, and you somewhat retain some damage in case of burns. And tera water like I said, general defensive utility, flying is only good for eq spam, which can fuck you over with rocks damage, I think Grass could potentially work, but I'm not too sure
i think punching glove is underrated as an item. it gave me the most results with annihilape back when that nonsense was legal, it's been giving me solid results with iron hands, and i guarantee it'll go great with urshifu
 
i think punching glove is underrated as an item. it gave me the most results with annihilape back when that nonsense was legal, it's been giving me solid results with iron hands, and i guarantee it'll go great with urshifu
punching glove is just the textbook definition of a good item when the mon can use and abuse it well. it only gives you boosts for your attacks and makes them non contact. it protects you and gives you more damage while preserving your longevity more than a life orb would. its a freaking great item, theres just not many good abusers outside of iron hands and annihilape. urshifu will change this.
 
I've been using this AV Azu set and I like it a lot:

Bomber Corps (Azumarill) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 64 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower
 
Who keeps using iron treads?

Also, cyclizar and armarouge dropped besides gren and the other 2 starters that nobody used

pls deposit your sads here
 
FvDVM_OX0AAjROS.jpg



The chart is out, what do you think of these stats in general, im gonna post some comments

:Great Tusk: Surprised its not on 60% yet

:Kingambit: Second in command, honestly, it has been disscussed alot, but I have starting to see more sets of the meme kind, like Choice Band, AV, Air Baloon tera flying. I have some kingambit meme sets, but if they get out, Kingambit would get banned so no one is ready for them

:Gholdengo: And you guys though Hazard Stack was on the decline, if he Tusk is the king, and kingambit is the dragon, then gholdengo is the monster drug dealer from the underworld who will get your wife addicted to hazard stack stall, and cocaine

:Dragonite: A new wave of Dnite sets have been appearing, I have been using this in rain and omg this thing fucking slaps, special dragonite feels actually useful instead of an overused out of touch set that has run its course

:Corviknight: ASS, this mon in UU would be fucking S+ tier, but here, its so bad, it counters tusk, meow, kingambit and bax, clodsire and that's basically it. It's only this high because it's the only actual flying type left, but man, this is one of the worst mons I have seen in this meta

:Roaring Moon: Ima be honest with you, this kinda deserved, even with no orthworm, the booster energy sets are the only booster energy mon that makes me scared, this is actually a really cool mon, who tf though giving this shit acrobatics was a great idea

:Iron Moth: okay but why, nothing bad against it, and I use it a lot, but why tho

:Orthworm: he was probably top ten usage before the ban, back to the McDonald's wage cage bitch

:Toxapex: remember when we though stall was finally dead, and we would never see it again? Great times, If this gen ends like gen 8 again I'm gonna unironically die from sadness

:Garganacl: speaking of stall, he is closing in, its a slow process, but people are realizing that this thing is broken, and the counters are basically meme sets, wouldn't be surprised if this thing gets to top 10 next month

What do you guys think of the overall meta now?
Its fun
 
I recall it being a pretty underrated choice so idk what you guys are on...

Probably the ladder forgetting about it

Walking Wake filled its niche as the good special water type, pretty sure if Wake was banned, he'd be lingering in the tier. Now poor thing dropped and I'm not sure if UU will have the tools to deal with it, it'll probably be banned there.
 
Walking Wake filled its niche as the good special water type, pretty sure if Wake was banned, he'd be lingering in the tier. Now poor thing dropped and I'm not sure if UU will have the tools to deal with it, it'll probably be banned there.
Yeah that's probably it. Wake being a better special water for the most part is probably what caused gren to drop.
 
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The chart is out, what do you think of these stats in general, im gonna post some comments

:Great Tusk: Surprised its not on 60% yet

:Kingambit: Second in command, honestly, it has been disscussed alot, but I have starting to see more sets of the meme kind, like Choice Band, AV, Air Baloon tera flying. I have some kingambit meme sets, but if they get out, Kingambit would get banned so no one is ready for them

:Gholdengo: And you guys though Hazard Stack was on the decline, if he Tusk is the king, and kingambit is the dragon, then gholdengo is the monster drug dealer from the underworld who will get your wife addicted to hazard stack stall, and cocaine

:Dragonite: A new wave of Dnite sets have been appearing, I have been using this in rain and omg this thing fucking slaps, special dragonite feels actually useful instead of an overused out of touch set that has run its course

:Corviknight: ASS, this mon in UU would be fucking S+ tier, but here, its so bad, it counters tusk, meow, kingambit and bax, clodsire and that's basically it. It's only this high because it's the only actual flying type left, but man, this is one of the worst mons I have seen in this meta

:Roaring Moon: Ima be honest with you, this kinda deserved, even with no orthworm, the booster energy sets are the only booster energy mon that makes me scared, this is actually a really cool mon, who tf though giving this shit acrobatics was a great idea

:Iron Moth: okay but why, nothing bad against it, and I use it a lot, but why tho

:Orthworm: he was probably top ten usage before the ban, back to the McDonald's wage cage bitch

:Toxapex: remember when we though stall was finally dead, and we would never see it again? Great times, If this gen ends like gen 8 again I'm gonna unironically die from sadness

:Garganacl: speaking of stall, he is closing in, its a slow process, but people are realizing that this thing is broken, and the counters are basically meme sets, wouldn't be surprised if this thing gets to top 10 next month

What do you guys think of the overall meta now?
Its fun

Probably said it 1000 times already, but Corviknight is still a very good Mon, provided 2 things:
1. You use it Sdef, not Pdef. Pdef is terrible, use other physical walls.
2. You use a Jolly Rapid Spin (aka only good set) Great Tusk on the same team, who outspeeds non Scarf Gholdengo.

Yeah, it's not an independent Mon anymore, but it still works as a viable ( and really solid vs non Gholdengo or Zone teams) Defogger and pivot. When it does meet Gholdengo, Corviknight is still useful at tanking Sballs and everything Special Valiant throws and U-Turning out to something that beats those but can't switch in. Steel-Flying is probably the second best defensive typing after Steel-Fairy, so Corvi will be doing SOMETHING in every battle (except vs Specs Zone, but fortunately that guy is still pretty rare).
Corviknight is THE REASON for which Glimmora, Ting-Lu and non LO Chomp need a Gholdengo (or Zone) 99% of the time, otherwise they are playing with 5vs6.
 
To be fair, the same can be said about Corv vs Gholdengo teams.

Yes, but I mean, Corv won,t be Defogging vs Gholdengo, it will be Tusk's job. However, Corv will be switching into shit like Iron Valiant or Gholdengo itself and U-Turn out. Corvi is immune to Spikes and not weak to Rocks, so he is the right member to take chip damage vs those kind of teams. Ting Lu without Gholdengo will be pretty useless (except for forcing Corv in and doing a Double switch, which I guess its something), Corvi vs Gholdengo will still provide some value.
 
Yes, but I mean, Corv won,t be Defogging vs Gholdengo, it will be Tusk's job. However, Corv will be switching into shit like Iron Valiant or Gholdengo itself and U-Turn out. Corvi is immune to Spikes and not weak to Rocks, so he is the right member to take chip damage vs those kind of teams. Ting Lu without Gholdengo will be pretty useless (except for forcing Corv in and doing a Double switch, which I guess its something), Corvi vs Gholdengo will still provide some value.
I use ting Lu a lot and have to say that Corvi is barely and issue, if I see it on the other side I simply don't lead Ting Lu and make progress in other ways, Ting Lu is very underated in mid game with whrilwind and also baiting Corvi at that point is good so you can get a free turn to set up with other mon. If anything I would say that Cinderace is more annoying than Corvi as a Ting Lu spammer.
 
It didn't become mid. Greninja is a good special breaker. It's just ladder fuckery. Even Wakw does not kill its viability as Gren has better coverage and speed.
I would say that tera made the coverage on mons less valuable since everything can get around that, what matters now is how strong a mon hits and what side effect the move has (status chance, defenses drops, bypassing subs, an so on.)
 
It didn't become mid. Greninja is a good special breaker. It's just ladder fuckery. Even Wakw does not kill its viability as Gren has better coverage and speed.

Wake is more spammable with what it does, Water and Fire isnt too limited in this metagame and and sun is still popping off. Tera Blast also gives it more coverage to use as well, broadening its usage

I'll admit that its predictable but that doesn't mean Greninja isn't somewhat predictable too.
 
It didn't become mid. Greninja is a good special breaker. It's just ladder fuckery. Even Wakw does not kill its viability as Gren has better coverage and speed.

Greninja was always carried by Protean. The nerf hurt Greninja far more than it hurts Cinderace or Meowscarada (because Meow was designed with the nerfed Protean in mind).
 
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