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GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread
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Do you not know what the term broken means?
Of course i do. I'm sure Game Freak intended Garchomp to act like this in sandstorm, otherwise they wouldn't have put Sand Veil on him. Either that, or they didn't care what his ability was and just randomly picked one? [/end sarcasm]
Garchomp is broken. You require 269 special attack for a guarenteed 1hko on it from an unstabbed Ice Beam. Most starmie don't even have that.
The fact that Garchomp's stats are just as good as the other "titans" doesn't mean the other Pokemon are quite as good as it. It has awesome typing, a very good movepool, and can pull off many different sets.
Even though the other Pokemon you mentioned can pull off lots of different sets like Garchomp, none of them have Sand Veil.
Sand Veil single handedly wins games that just shouldn't be won. You can have 5 semi counters to Garchomp and lose them all once it Swords Dances or Substitutes until you miss with your Ice attack.
It's the #1 most used Pokemon in OU, and it deserves to be. (It even overtook Blissey as many of you know) When something is just this over centralizing and forces so many games to be decided on luck.
It is true that Pokemon is a game with some luck involved. However, Sand Veil makes Garchomp, a Pokemon with great stats, typing, and movepool just absurd. It pretty much forces any attempt at a counter to have an 80% accuracy on whatever it is they are using to attempt to 1hko. God forbid it just Substitutes until you miss.
Skarmory is a pretty good counter against the Scarf/Substitute ones, but I've been seeing more and more people use Fire Fang on Garchomp to take out Bronzong and Skarmory. If you see Garchomp Swords Dance on the switch with Skarmory, you're most likely going to take a lot of damage from Fire Fang or be 1hkod by Chainchomp's Fire Blast. (Not that anybody really uses chainchomp anymore)
Okay limme give this a crack...
Anyways Dragonite can do all the stuff on your list, but the sandveil and speed, but it has DDance.
Also Anything faster than it will beat it.
Also iirc he will not survive a cb ice shard, anyways I think you guys are seriously overrating Garchomp, I say that Lucario and Dragonite are more threatening both who have no counters.
Anyways Dragonite can do all the stuff on your list, but the sandveil and speed, but it has DDance.
Also Anything faster than it will beat it.
Also iirc he will not survive a cb ice shard, anyways I think you guys are seriously overrating Garchomp, I say that Lucario and Dragonite are more threatening both who have no counters.
The only thing I hate is that fucking Sand Veil Brightpowder Chomp. That shit is ridiculous. Especially since most teams will have one solid SD Chomp counter, missing on that crucial turn (or two) will wreck your team.
I blame Surgo. :P
On a serious note:
(based on base stats) It has Ho-oh's Attack (which can be boosted through Swords Dance), is faster than Palkia (and makes pretty good use of Choice Scarf), and comes with Rayquaza-like Defenses. Sand Veil adds to its ability to "take" hits.
Its STAB attacks, Dragon and Ground, form a powerful combination that hits everything not named Skarmory or Levitate Bronzong--and it can pack Fire Blast to deal with them effectively enough off of its 80 base attack.
A base 110 Special Attack non-Ice Pokemon with a non-boosting nature still needs 40 EVs to guarantee an OHKO on a 0/0 Garchomp with the most common Ice attack in standard play, Ice Beam. Only four non-Ice Pokemon in Standard that learn Ice Beam have greater than 110 Special Attack, but they are all slower than Garchomp. One has 85/70/75 defenses, another is weak to Earthquake with 70/125 defenses, one has 55/105/75 defenses, and the last one is weak to Earthquake with 84/88 defenses. Others still are faster than Garchomp and can deal with it with little problems, but many of them have problems of being weak to Earthquake/Fire Blast/Crunch which can be exposed when against ScarfChomp.
(By the way, in case you haven't noticed, the base 110 Special Attack Pokemon in question is Vaporeon.)
Okay, here's my verdict:
Garchomp is dangerous (Duh!)--possibly too dangerous. Much of the reason for carrying Ice attacks is to deal with the two most threatening dragons in standard play, Garchomp and Salamence. I'd like to think that removing Garchomp from standard will reduce that reliance on Ice attacks, but the likes of Gliscor, Salamence, and Hippowdon may still warrant them. Still, I'd rather not have to resort to Vaporeon and Suicune to counter Garchomp, though they do a pretty effective job of it. How many more Garchomp "counters" can you name that aren't weak to Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Stone Edge/Crunch? All of those attacks have to be looked out for, especially when it comes to ScarfChomp.
Ohh, I was going to say something else... shit, I forgot. Anyway, there's my opinion, along with much of what you need to know to form your opinion on the matter.
(Man, I took WAYYY too long to make this post...)
On a serious note:
(based on base stats) It has Ho-oh's Attack (which can be boosted through Swords Dance), is faster than Palkia (and makes pretty good use of Choice Scarf), and comes with Rayquaza-like Defenses. Sand Veil adds to its ability to "take" hits.
Its STAB attacks, Dragon and Ground, form a powerful combination that hits everything not named Skarmory or Levitate Bronzong--and it can pack Fire Blast to deal with them effectively enough off of its 80 base attack.
A base 110 Special Attack non-Ice Pokemon with a non-boosting nature still needs 40 EVs to guarantee an OHKO on a 0/0 Garchomp with the most common Ice attack in standard play, Ice Beam. Only four non-Ice Pokemon in Standard that learn Ice Beam have greater than 110 Special Attack, but they are all slower than Garchomp. One has 85/70/75 defenses, another is weak to Earthquake with 70/125 defenses, one has 55/105/75 defenses, and the last one is weak to Earthquake with 84/88 defenses. Others still are faster than Garchomp and can deal with it with little problems, but many of them have problems of being weak to Earthquake/Fire Blast/Crunch which can be exposed when against ScarfChomp.
(By the way, in case you haven't noticed, the base 110 Special Attack Pokemon in question is Vaporeon.)
Okay, here's my verdict:
Garchomp is dangerous (Duh!)--possibly too dangerous. Much of the reason for carrying Ice attacks is to deal with the two most threatening dragons in standard play, Garchomp and Salamence. I'd like to think that removing Garchomp from standard will reduce that reliance on Ice attacks, but the likes of Gliscor, Salamence, and Hippowdon may still warrant them. Still, I'd rather not have to resort to Vaporeon and Suicune to counter Garchomp, though they do a pretty effective job of it. How many more Garchomp "counters" can you name that aren't weak to Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Stone Edge/Crunch? All of those attacks have to be looked out for, especially when it comes to ScarfChomp.
Ohh, I was going to say something else... shit, I forgot. Anyway, there's my opinion, along with much of what you need to know to form your opinion on the matter.
(Man, I took WAYYY too long to make this post...)
I was talking with Seph about an hour ago on AIM about this.
We agreed that this thing should be removed from OU, and ignore the fact that it will be awful in ubers(as the metagame is already severely unbalanced). Garchomp is becoming more and more unpredictable with the scarf set dropping in popularity. Cresselia isn't even a surefire counter due Chomp's ridiculous +20 evasiveness boost(as well as the +28 with brightpowder chomp), while it subs and dances away. The point that Kira made- 269 special attack is required to OHKO chomp with Ice Beam- is absolutely ridiculous, as most users of Ice Beam such as Milotic, Cresselia, Starmie(as mentioned by Kira), Vaporeon, and Swampert don't run very many special attack evs. I think removing Garchomp would have a very pleasant effect on the OU metagame, and people wouldn't bitch nearly as much about Sand Veil hax.
The two things Shoddy needs to do:
Remove Chomp from OU
Remove Wobuffet from OU(do I actually need to explain this?)
Perhaps Smogon can consider removing it from the OU tier list.
We agreed that this thing should be removed from OU, and ignore the fact that it will be awful in ubers(as the metagame is already severely unbalanced). Garchomp is becoming more and more unpredictable with the scarf set dropping in popularity. Cresselia isn't even a surefire counter due Chomp's ridiculous +20 evasiveness boost(as well as the +28 with brightpowder chomp), while it subs and dances away. The point that Kira made- 269 special attack is required to OHKO chomp with Ice Beam- is absolutely ridiculous, as most users of Ice Beam such as Milotic, Cresselia, Starmie(as mentioned by Kira), Vaporeon, and Swampert don't run very many special attack evs. I think removing Garchomp would have a very pleasant effect on the OU metagame, and people wouldn't bitch nearly as much about Sand Veil hax.
The two things Shoddy needs to do:
Remove Chomp from OU
Remove Wobuffet from OU(do I actually need to explain this?)
Perhaps Smogon can consider removing it from the OU tier list.
Definitly uber.
107/95/85 Defenses are SCARY good for a sweeper
Then you have STAB earthquake and outrage (which hit 98% of the game for neutral damage) coming off a base 130 attack stat that can be raised with swords dance.
He outspeeds all dragons so his dragon weakness is kinda reduced.
And apart from that he reduces all attacks accuracy by 20%
And he's the most popular pokemon on the game :/
What the fuck.
107/95/85 Defenses are SCARY good for a sweeper
Then you have STAB earthquake and outrage (which hit 98% of the game for neutral damage) coming off a base 130 attack stat that can be raised with swords dance.
He outspeeds all dragons so his dragon weakness is kinda reduced.
And apart from that he reduces all attacks accuracy by 20%
And he's the most popular pokemon on the game :/
What the fuck.
Dragonite can get killed by Ice Shard easily, or 2 Shards with Yache Berry. Even if it does DD, any Sashers can take a hit, unless previously damaged by SR or Spikes, of course, they can just simply pull off another Ice Shard. Cloyster's 5 times Icicle Spear both eats Yache Berry and hits hard, not to mention that its 180 Base Defense can kick some bottoms.
Lucario? Pssh. Anything faster than it, with a super effective attack can kill it. Earthquake is very common, and very good against Lucario. Its base 90 Speed isn't that great. Garchomp single handedly kills it. Not to mention its terrible defense stats making it such frail. Infernape kills Lucario with ease.
1 Hp more of a reason why it should gtfo of OU :)
Lucario is only more threatening if you have no counter for it. Lucario sets generally require prediction, mainy the Swords Dance set. If you let Lucario get off a Swords Dance without a counter, it is almost always game over.
Bronzong, Skarmory usually take those sets, while Infernape can always outspeed that thing and kill it with a Flamethrower.
Infernape is hard to be taken down with 1 Nasty Plot in.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? After an SD, Infernape is dead meat when facing Extremespeed Lucario. As are a lot of other fast sweepers. Most slower things don't enjoy a STAB SD Close Combat. It has loads of opportunities to get that SD in. I'm not saying its uber, but its a lot better than you make it out to be. Ice Shard just isn't an option for keeping Garchomp in this metagame. You need a CB behind it, and if you're going to use CB Ice Shard on every team, thats is blatant overcentralisation. And like they said, needing 269 SAtk to OHKO a 0/0 version of a sweeper with Chomp's stats is kind of overdoing it.
Trust. You just have to trust that your opponent is being honest.
Lucario OHKOs Zong with 252 hp evs with a Life Orbed Swords Danced Close Combat every time. With Steath Rock, it has a 50/50 chance of OHKOing Skarmory.
Now let's not get off topic... Garchomp has no surefire counters, and literally nothing can wall it, therefore is too good for OU play.
Now let's not get off topic... Garchomp has no surefire counters, and literally nothing can wall it, therefore is too good for OU play.
And don't forget it has 20% chance of fucking with your crazy anti-Garchomp strategy just standing under Sandstorm!
Wait a minute. I keep hearing that 269 is the needed SpA to OHKO 0/0 Garchomp with Ice Beam. Unless my repeated calculations are off, shouldn't it be 266? (The point about that being such a ridiculous number needed is still noted, however.)
I'm just saying if Infernape is holding Focus Sash and Garchomp's holding Life Orb... Usually pretty standard. But it doesn't apply if there's SR or Spikes lied down to kill off Sashes.
What about Dusknoir with Will-o-wisp? I've never tested that though...
Anyway, and I never said Chomp was okay for OU. I know Chomp overcentralizes CB Ice Shard Donphans.
And to the other person's post... "Trusting" someone not holding Brightpowder isn't the solution... What if someone is? You still don't know it.
i swear to god, half of the battles i lose are because of some random attack missing against garchomp. heres my story why he should be moved to ubers.
me 2 pokemon somerandom opponent garchomp
i send out scarf azelf. EXPLOSION missed.
i send out starmie. EARTHQUAKE, fails to KO. ice beam, MISS.
gg. i agree with every statement that has been made to ban garchomp
me 2 pokemon somerandom opponent garchomp
i send out scarf azelf. EXPLOSION missed.
i send out starmie. EARTHQUAKE, fails to KO. ice beam, MISS.
gg. i agree with every statement that has been made to ban garchomp
#1 So because one set can't be beat it should be UBER? So if a mence/nite hass 2 DD's are they UBER? Is specmence uber?
#2 Jolteon can outspeed base 100's and it has 110 sp.atk. Jolteon is UBER
#3 I can give my ranpardos a scarf. Its head smash really hurts, base 150 STAB attack coming offf 164 base atk, Rampardos is UBER
#4 Garchomp learns Fire Blast =0. So is every physical attacker that learns a special move UBER? Electivire, your UBER.
#5 OMG Garchomp can take a neutral hit o.0. If i give mewtwo a - sp.atk nature and a 0 sp.atk ivs, and garchomp survives, does that make garchomp worthy of UBERness? I mean it was proven to take A hit from mewtwo.
#6 OMG, Frosslass/Mamoswine, if you get a SUB/Hail/Snow cloak activates/Bright Powder, your UBER, yay.
#7 OMG Garchomp can take a hit from a reduced hit from base 40 power =0.
Umm, You fail, all you did was show its good things. Here is a perfect counter to any chomp.
Weavile - Sash/CB
Ice shard - SD/ Ice shard
CB ice shard, will KO it, and if no Sand storm SD ice shard for more power. Get your things right before you make something like this. A pokemon with a 4x weakness to THE most powerful attack in the game? (Proven in X-acts recent thread)
Without Thunderpunch, Infernape is walled hard by Tentacruel, who hits back with SE STAB'd Surf.
And what kind of Infernape runs Focus Sash?
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