But do those other Sand Veil/Snow Cloak Pokemon have the capability to sweep entire teams because their counter missed one turn?
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GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread
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But do those other Sand Veil/Snow Cloak Pokemon have the capability to sweep entire teams because their counter missed one turn?
To attest to how broken Sand Veil+Sub+Brightpowder chomp is, let's just say I've gotten more than one late game sweeps ending with a Sand Veil hax miss and me winning. To add injury to insult, I actually run the standard SD chomp, not the Brightpowder chomp.
As for the Lucario/Infernape issue, I've already been beaten to what I want to say. However, you people have ruled out the possibility of Lucario holding Focus Sash. Pretty ridiculous, I know, but I have used it with success when I was trying out SD Lucario. Infernape, Skarm and Bronzong don't have a shitty chance. SD CC with a Focus Sash rapes chomp inside out.
As for the Lucario/Infernape issue, I've already been beaten to what I want to say. However, you people have ruled out the possibility of Lucario holding Focus Sash. Pretty ridiculous, I know, but I have used it with success when I was trying out SD Lucario. Infernape, Skarm and Bronzong don't have a shitty chance. SD CC with a Focus Sash rapes chomp inside out.
A counter is something that can switch into Garchomp without Getting hurt (Ex: Gliscor > Heracross), your Weavile counter can't switch into a Fire Blast/Fire Fang, right? =\
ok, im not allowed to insult cause ill get infracted again, but dude, your post is way, way, way off. weavile is not a COUNTER to chomp. he switches in, takes down to 1%, then dies due to sand storm. a counter has to switch in and threaten the pokemon immediately. not be put in at the same time, and then assume the garchomp user is mentaly handicapped and will keep garchomp in against a weavile. and even if he did keep him in, he would be holding a yache berry, and you would get butt raped by earthquake, fire fang, stone edge or outrage.
not to mention your 100% accuracy move could miss 20% of the time.
Jujomi obviously forgot that sandstream hax are always there to mess up you're chance at winning.
Garchomp... is only becoming broken because people are abusing Sand Viel. Honestly, I quit at the 1st sign of a miss. It's just not fun, and not really pokemon anymore when you have to rely on luck now to beat THE MOST POPULAR POKEMON IN THE GAME. I would definately support banning of Garchomp, or at least the sand viel trait (I guess you can't do that but whatever).
On a side note, people do forget his defenses. I actually have tested Garchomp as a physical tank, beause his defenses are better than Swampert and 107/95/85 is nothing to laugh about. Combine that with hax and he has no trouble stopping things like Lucario cold.
So, Garchomp isn't uuber, and isn't broken.. but is a total bitch to fight and takes the "fun" out of the game. I argue the same thing with Wobb and Blissey. I say ban all 3 for a month and see what happens
On a side note, people do forget his defenses. I actually have tested Garchomp as a physical tank, beause his defenses are better than Swampert and 107/95/85 is nothing to laugh about. Combine that with hax and he has no trouble stopping things like Lucario cold.
So, Garchomp isn't uuber, and isn't broken.. but is a total bitch to fight and takes the "fun" out of the game. I argue the same thing with Wobb and Blissey. I say ban all 3 for a month and see what happens
Neither is Kyogre. Ludicolo walks all over that guy. But no one says Kyogre belongs in OU.
I see a reason to dispatch Wobuffet and Garchomp, but Blissey holds a critical place in the OU metagame, and without her monstrous special threats such as Yanmega, Togekiss, Porygon Z, Raikou(hence you're name, lol), Specsmence, and plenty of others would be totally dominant and very difficult to stop. Blissey will never be cast away from OU.
-_- Okay, Garchomp will be killed by 2 ice chards or 1 without Yache, Garchomp can be stopped by a sasher, any poke can. Also Cloyster can work as a chomp counter too. Also Lucario has Vacume Wave and Extreeme Speed to mess up faster pokes, and Lucario can set up easily due to resistances, and Infernape isn't really a great counter. Basically what I'm saying is that if Garchomp is banned, Lucario and Dragonite should be banned too.
I kno Slice, I just hate the bitch and the lack of originality. Garchomp has more roles, and a little bit of variation in his cheapness.
Lucario can set up against Garchomp? When did this happen? Vacume Wave can't OHKO 'Chomp, who makes Lucario very dead with STAB Earthquake.
Also, you're ignoring the fact that sand veil makes one out of every five attacks fail to connect, meaning Ice Shard can miss (and get you very dead).
Also, you're ignoring the fact that sand veil makes one out of every five attacks fail to connect, meaning Ice Shard can miss (and get you very dead).
Blissey is dead meat when taking damage with its 10 based Defense. Especially fighting moves. It can't tank much physical attacks at all from distinct physical sweepers such as Weavile's Brick Break. 1 Sword Dance later Blissey is half-egg half-lard.
I think people are over-rating Garchomp a bit, especially Sand Veil. Without Bright Powder, Sand Veil has a 20% chance of missing. This seems high, but then you have to realize that this isn't even a quarter of 100%. So if you are a smart player, you will pack a semi-reliable counter, and you have an 80% chance of OHKO'ing it, 20% chance of it getting an extra Swords Dance. Unless it holds the gimmicky Bright Power, which still means that you have a 72% chance of hitting.
Generally, the best way to counter it is to send in something with decent overall defenses like Cresselia or bulky Waters. From there you can tell what type of Garchomp it is. Really, only the Choice Band Garchomp is tough to solidly counter, and that has little chance of sweeping, and still has to predict.
Tyranitar, on the other hand, is a lot harder to counter, because its two main sets (CB Tar, TyraniBoah) are incredibly hard to counter on their own, and it's damn near impossible to find a counter to both at once. Then there's that DD Tar, that can easily find an opportunity to set up and sweep unprepared teams. Tyranitar is a lot more versatile than Garchomp, and a 4x Fighting weakness isn't as bad as a 4x Ice weakness, as Fighting moves are only really used in OU by Heracross, Infernape, Gengar, and Lucario, whereas BoltBeam is spammed everywhere. Plus its ability is basically Knock Off to all non-Rock, -Steel, or -Ground walls.
Salamence is also very difficult to counter. The best ADV CB Mence counters took heavy blows when it comes to tanking its hits, and Specsmence basically kills everything but Blissey. MixMence is like Specsmence, minus the Blissey problem. Plus it has a very feasible chance of sweeping with Dragon Dance, and can Roost away its Stealth Rock weakness.
You can claim that nothing in OU has 100% counters and demand they be put in ubers, but to claim that they are broken is ridiculous. I have been swept by Garchomp due to unfortunate Sand Evil haxes, but I don't see why he should be moved to ubers.
Generally, the best way to counter it is to send in something with decent overall defenses like Cresselia or bulky Waters. From there you can tell what type of Garchomp it is. Really, only the Choice Band Garchomp is tough to solidly counter, and that has little chance of sweeping, and still has to predict.
Tyranitar, on the other hand, is a lot harder to counter, because its two main sets (CB Tar, TyraniBoah) are incredibly hard to counter on their own, and it's damn near impossible to find a counter to both at once. Then there's that DD Tar, that can easily find an opportunity to set up and sweep unprepared teams. Tyranitar is a lot more versatile than Garchomp, and a 4x Fighting weakness isn't as bad as a 4x Ice weakness, as Fighting moves are only really used in OU by Heracross, Infernape, Gengar, and Lucario, whereas BoltBeam is spammed everywhere. Plus its ability is basically Knock Off to all non-Rock, -Steel, or -Ground walls.
Salamence is also very difficult to counter. The best ADV CB Mence counters took heavy blows when it comes to tanking its hits, and Specsmence basically kills everything but Blissey. MixMence is like Specsmence, minus the Blissey problem. Plus it has a very feasible chance of sweeping with Dragon Dance, and can Roost away its Stealth Rock weakness.
You can claim that nothing in OU has 100% counters and demand they be put in ubers, but to claim that they are broken is ridiculous. I have been swept by Garchomp due to unfortunate Sand Evil haxes, but I don't see why he should be moved to ubers.
With everyone here complaining about Sand Veil, it makes you wonder why most leads have Hypnosis and many sweepers carry Stone Edge. Hell, the Standard Blissey set on Smogon analysis lists friggen sing for crying out loud.
Meh, I run a hail-team. I generally have a plan against Dragons... and a method of getting rid of Sand Veil.
Meh, I run a hail-team. I generally have a plan against Dragons... and a method of getting rid of Sand Veil.
#1) Wobbuffet's one set: Counter / MC / Encore / Filler can't be beaten easily. That is Uber. 2 DD Mence/Dnite takes TWO Turns to set up. Garchomp uses 1 SD to kill, minus the ScarfChomp, which takes no setup whatsoever.
#2) Jolteon doesn't have Nasty Plot. Garchomp has Sword Dance. Jolteon has frail HP & Defense (both at 60), Garchomp's HP is 108, Defense is 95, SDef is 85.
#3) You can give Rampardos a Scarf, but it gets ran over by ScarfChomp.
#4) You completely bashed the point. Its Fire Blast takes down two of its very fearsome walls: Skarmory and Bronzong.
#5) Hence, Mewtwo is Uber. And of course, you clearly stated that Mewtwo has 0 IV. Who the heck uses those Mewtwos? I don't.
#6) Sure Froslass / Mamoswine can TKO your whole team due to one miss! (/end sarcasm)
#7) Yes, and then kill you.
And Weavile's sash does NOT work during sandstorm. Also, having Choice Band Ice Sharder being required on your team to beat out this thing = Garchomp overcentralizes the game. And that is, only if your Ice Shard does not miss.
So you fail. Don't look at me.
And here's the definition of a counter:
Something that can switch in, taking barely any damage, and kill the opponent or forcing it to switch.
Now, try switching in your Weavile into my Stone Edge, Earthquake or Fire Fang. Good job. Died from my hit or sandstorm afterwards.
Yes, a lot of those Pokemon are incredibly annoying to face due to unpredictability of movesets. My problem with Garchomp lies in the fact that you might know which moves it's packing and have the necessary counter to it but you still lose due to Sand Veil/Bright Powder misses. Having the match completely out of your hands is incredibly frustrating.
And before somebody brings up crit-hax or freeze-hax, those aren't abused as easily and that one chance effect usually doesn't end up with the rest of your team swept.
Only thing is Wobbuffet's ability? You know how much that ability ruins your day? You get either guarentee kill or free switch.
Maybe because this thread isn't about those two....
LOL, only his ability is broken? I guess you are right, I mean there is nothing broken about his good defensive stats, great hp, and attack, amazing speed, and superior movepool, and all that other stuff. Nope, just the ability... lol
Also you say Wobbuffet is uber... why? Because of it's ability? Because it's movepool sucks.
You can't say X pokemon is uber because of it's ability, and Y pokemon isn't uber because the only thing uber about is it's ability.
With the people I normally play, no HAX Items (BrightPowder included) is part of the standard rules. The only way you can enforce that really is trust.
This is such a terrible example of hyperbole and "straw man" arguing that it makes me sad to see it.
#1) Dragonite and Salamence have a much harder time setting up than Garchomp because they don't have Sand Veil HAX to fall back on to get free boosts. And yes, one Pokemon's set is totally unbeatable, you can either ban the set or ban the Pokemon.
#2) Jolteon has nowhere near the power of Garchomp, nor does it have as good of an attacking combination. Poor choice for comparison.
#3) Rampardos is weak defensively, and without Jolly a CSpardos is still outspeed by Jolly Garchomps and the like. It's not that ungodly fast.
#4) This one I can't really say anything about.
#5) No one is going to run a Mewtwo like that, so it's stupid to even bring it up. For as fast a Pokemon as Garchomp is, it has some of the best defensive stats that I can think of. In fact, Garchomp is probably the bulkiest fast sweeper.
#6) Froslass is miles behind Garchomp in terms of power. It's slower, weaker, and I don't think it can use the free Sub to really do anything, unlike Garchomp which can SD up. Same with Mamo. And Hail is far, far less common than Sandstorm.
#7) Garchomp happens to be 4x weak to that 40 Base Power attack, effectively turning it into a 160 base power attack. It takes a strong Pokemon to shrug that off.
CB Donphan probably cannot stand up to a boosted Earthquake or two.
A lot of things in the game are out of your control. Are we to complain about Absol and his Swords Dancing, crit-haxing of annoyance?
You do realize that people are complaining about Garchomp for a combination of factors, right? You can't argue that Kyogre isn't uber because Drizzle is comparable to Snow Warning and Abomasnow isn't uber.
Things like Absol have their downfalls and weaknesses and that's why we don't see them as much as Garchomp. And if hardly anyone sees it, who's going to complain about it? I also think it's fair to bring up the issue since Garchomp is now the weighted usage leader (and don't bring up Blissey being #1 for so long because it's been settled that an OU metagame w/o Blissey would be unbalanced).
Thats a stupid argument. Just cause one pokemon can't switch safely into every move does not mean that this thing is uber. Gliscor's popularity arose from the fact that (aside from Weezing, who is a shaky counter because it doesnt have reliable healing) it was the only safe switch in to Hera. It's ability is better then Garchomp's, it has 2 STAB moves that are resisted by soley fliers, which are nailed by Stone Edge, and has Pursuit to trap stuff. Does that mean it is uber? No, but it means it is a solid OU. I am sick of all these threads stating Pokemon x is uber because of so and so. If Garchomp was truly uber, then it would have been banned when the metagame originated (on shoddy) many months ago.
I agree completely with this, so I'm quoting for emphasis.
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