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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
On Shelter, I think it was considered non-redundant because Goodra technically doesn't learn Acid Armor, Sligoo does. It's a Breloom-Spore situation and I guess they considered it important enough to have a +2 DEF that they didn't wanna lock out Home Transfers or such.
You know what would have been nice? Healing. It's literally the one thing every form of the obviously-defensive-leaning Goodra is missing.
Sliggoo also learns Shelter. In fact, it learns it on evolution in SV, a thing that is impossible to do
It is silly that both Sliggoos are the only things in that line that learn Acid Armor, though.
In terms of standard Pokemon gameplay +2 Defense is probably what made the most sense to them from a flavor standpoint anyway. Shelter worked the way it did in PLA because stat boosts are generally nondistinctive: it's either "Offensive boost" or "Defensive boost", in both cases boosting both offensive stats or both defensive stats, and for three turns. Same with Speed for that matter.
Not to mention the obscure mechanic is something that couldn't really be carried over well into SV.
Shelter's whole flavor schtick is that Hisuian Goodra tucks into its shell and hardens its shell and tightens its muscles to make itself more durable, and since its shell very evidently is supposed to give it more physical durability (hence why its main difference from the modern day Goodra is a +30 Defense increase in exchange for -10 HP and -20 Speed) the move's most sensible effect from a flavor standpoint in the standard classic battle system was a sharp physical Defense boost, especially for one that literally involves hardening its shell and tucking into it while using it as a defense mechanism.
So it was really a flavor thing combined with the extreme differences in stat boost mechanics in the PLA battle system and the classic battle system.
*Angry Arbok noises*
Actually, I know this is a super late response to this old discussion, but I think I have a pretty good idea of why Fairy has an advantage against the Dark-type from a flavor standpoint, and that boils down to what the Dark-type really is despite what the type name in all of its languages would imply on the surface.
Essentially, the Dark-type is a physical combat oriented type, and their real gimmick is physical combat that involves less sheer power and more dirty fighting tactics, which makes it the antithesis to the Fighting-type, which contrarily also involves hand to hand physical combat, but involves more brute force and raw strength, attacking head-on with power. But both are dominantly physical combat types: they have many physical moves and a scant amount of special moves, and involve trained physical techniques, albeit in opposite manners. Fighting-type moves are more high powered, rarely have special effects, and are honorable combatants, while Dark-type moves are lower powered but have quirks that clearly imply dirty fighting and dishonorable spirit: Sucker Punch is striking first before the opponent as a surprise attack, Foul Play uses the opponent's Attack power against it, Pursuit chases an escaping Pokemon to strike them before they escape, Beat Up involves the user gathering the whole team to gang up on its target, etc. Physical combat, but dirty tactics. Whereas Fighting-types have the likes of Close Combat, Superpower, etc. which are just sheer power.
Now how does this tie into the Fairy-type interactions? As I highlighted, Dark shares a commonality with Fighting as being a physically oriented trained combat type, and both of these types are resisted by Fairy while Fairy hits both super effectively, and it ties very strongly into how the fae act and where their strength lies in a combat context. Fae tend to be small and in many cases cute and harmless-looking, and they use this to their advantage to trick their opponent into lowering their guard and losing the ability to fight: in some cases, they may go as far as to use their nature powers to lull their target into lowering their guard. Since Dark and Fighting both involve direct physical combat with the opponent, against a fae creature, their small and seemingly harmless frame will make a combatant less wary, thus physical combat will be less effective against them. And then they can use that to their advantage to trick a fighting combatant into losing the will to fight and not attacking, letting their guard down and thus giving the fae the opportunity to pounce: since the combatant has their guard down, the fae's attacks will hit harder against them.
In a Pokemon context, imagine a Machamp or a Weavile trying to attack a Sylveon using their typical hand-to-hand combat mannerisms, only for the Sylveon to grab them with their ribbons and release its magic aura that soothes them and robs them of the will to fight. Then the Sylveon proceeds to attack them while they're in an entranced state. You get the picture there?
Essentially, when you look at Dark-type as a dedicated "physical combat" type, akin to yet antithetical to Fighting, the picture becomes clearer, and explains why Fairy has an advantage against both of them, Fairy as a type having the underlying theme of two of its resistances being to these two types distinctly, because it aligns with the flavor of fae using a weak and seemingly harmless appearance or soothing powers to their advantage to trick their opponents into not attacking before pouncing them, ie the powers of mischief and deceit prevailing over a willed and determined combatant.
I've always found it weird that none of the major story battles in the core series uses switching or take advantage of switching (e.g. Roar, Spikes, U-turn) in any sort of form, despite the mechanic being the most unique aspect PKMN has as an RPG. Adding switching into the AI not only would allow to give additional flavor onto the characters by tweaking their team structure and strategy in-battle to reflect their personality rather than throwing 5/6 threats with maximum offensive coverage that just translates into just an uninteresting tradefest. The lack of switching also seems to be connected to the rarity of defensive movesets and the scarcity of good and creatively used held items outside of battle facilities. Both of these seem to me as GameFreak trying to dumb down the amount of braincells needed to defeat the main storyline (Pokémon is the quintessential beginner's RPG after all), but this really narrows the bridge towards the VGC scene, a 4v4 Doubles format that works totally different metagame from the standard 6v6 singles format within the games. which further proves that the higher ups really do not care about showing their more casual playerbase the depth the games can have.
Now obviously all of this would only ever happen if they included this in a future Hard Mode (which doesn't seem to be happening soon given their track record in actually balancing the game smartly), which would REALLY help from the inclusion of actually good, dedicated-in-the-franchise players via a new dedicated game balance team to help design each PKMN and story battles to be actually engaging and interesting, and unique... something that that GameFreak's rather small team clearly won't do as the faults in their 3-year development cycle have shown time and time again.
This ramble was prompted when I remembered this specific quote from the AI professor :
LIES AND BULLSHIT THAT MUST ALL THE TRAINERS IN PALDEA AND THE ENTIRE POKÉMON WORLD ARE DUMBASSES WHO ARE ONLY CAPABLE OF BRUTE FORCE STEP UP YOUR GAME(FREAK) !
Now obviously all of this would only ever happen if they included this in a future Hard Mode (which doesn't seem to be happening soon given their track record in actually balancing the game smartly), which would REALLY help from the inclusion of actually good, dedicated-in-the-franchise players via a new dedicated game balance team to help design each PKMN and story battles to be actually engaging and interesting, and unique... something that that GameFreak's rather small team clearly won't do as the faults in their 3-year development cycle have shown time and time again.
This ramble was prompted when I remembered this specific quote from the AI professor :
LIES AND BULLSHIT THAT MUST ALL THE TRAINERS IN PALDEA AND THE ENTIRE POKÉMON WORLD ARE DUMBASSES WHO ARE ONLY CAPABLE OF BRUTE FORCE STEP UP YOUR GAME(FREAK) !
1. Catch your breath. Breath in, breath out.
2. Remember, the period punctuation marks (.) are your friend.
Off the top of my head:
-Bugsy makes use of U-Turn in his initial battle in HGSS (can't recall if his rematch also does but I don't believe so)
-Roark's signature move is Stealth Rock, which his gym battle makes use of
-Elesa uses Volt Switch in both her gym battles and I believe Wattson does too in ORAS
-Gonzap uses Roar in a rather creative way I've always liked in his Orre Colosseum battle in XD: one of his Pokémon will use Hyper Beam - or a variant - and the other will use Roar on it to switch it out and bypass the recharge turn. In general the Gamecube games (and subsequently PBR) had much more of this kind of thing than the main handheld series; I actually recall a couple of opponents in the battle modes having strategies revolving around Spikes/Roar. They're the games that really focus on serious battling - the main series has moved away from this in recent years (BDSP aside). From what I gather SwSh's Battle Tower isn't particularly challenging in the way previous facilities were.
This is kind of ruined by his other team members being the garbage Metapod and Kakuna. Good effort on GF for changing the team order to lead with Scyther, though.
Not really? Roark lacks phazing moves and Stealth Rock is just kind of there. You might not even notice SR if you use a single Pokémon for the entire fight, plus the nature of Gym Battles means you're probably not bringing Rock weaknesses anyway.
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Please tell me where I said he used it in a competent way
The strong trainer AI is capable of switching if they have a mon in the back that both resists the last move the player used and can threaten it offensively. This is pretty rare outside of Battle Facilities however because most NPCs are getting OHKO'd by the player and/or don't have significant type diversity.
There is of course also the increasing trend towards single-mon bosses with inflated stats, which obviously closes off switching as an option for said boss.
There is of course also the increasing trend towards single-mon bosses with inflated stats, which obviously closes off switching as an option for said boss.
To be fair, having a lead use Stealth Rocks is a savant level strategy compared to having your last member be the face of hazard leads.
My gripe with Geeta is Pokemon like Garchomp, Salamence, Tyrantitar, Gholdengo, Dragonite, Ceruledge, and Blissey are all not used by important trainers, but she goes with Espathra and Veluza, Pokemon already used by Paldean Gym Leaders.
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There was a route boss(the black text boxes) in SV who used U-Turn to bounce between a fast, damaging bug type and a forretress. It's been a while since I faced them, so I can't remember where, but it was an interesting fight with no fire-types on my team.
Certain trainers in Gen 3 can switch, there's one Camper in Erika's gym that I've seen switch quite often, there's a trainer in the Pyrite Colosseum who will switch Pokémon, and once when I was playing a randomized run of FireRed Gary actually switch a Pokémon out during the Pokémon Tower fight. It's just really rare outside of the two who nearly always do it, but any of them with the right AI level can they just won't. Also Agatha back in Gen 1.
Pretty sure I’ve never seen any Pseudos outside the actual region used in initial matches vs Gyms/E4/Champion, except maybe in Challenge mode BW2 I think there was a Metagross? Gholdengo is clearly a special Pokemon, it was never going to be featured via a trainer, reminds me of Unown/Rotom in that respect. Blissey, idk why you care about that not being used. Its not a threat at all and set up fodder for anything. Ceruledge/Armarouge were underutilised for sure, I thought they’d be highly pushed as someone’s Ace given their pre-release stuff but yeah… turns out not.
Jugglers supposedly tend to do so, and IIRC in Gen I there are a number of trainer classes (including certain named NPCs, who count internally as a trainer class all to themselves) who have a fixed % chance of switching each turn.
The AI in battle facilities also has a higher chance to switch than most trainers, but it's... not as useful as one might think. They're basically primed to switch to mitigate the effect of a super-effective move if if they have a Pokemon in reserve that counters a move you've already used. So if their Fire-type just survived a Water attack, they might switch in their Grass-type to take the hit; they'll also do this if the backup Pokemon has an ability such as Water Absorb.
It shows a bit of intelligence beyond the standard AI, but obviously in practice it's... not always that effective. If the opponent's Flying-type survives your Ice Beam and they switch in a Rock-type... you might well have a move that's super-effective against Rock anyway, so you can KO it next turn. As one of Smogon's guides to the Battle Subway notes, they'll switch if they get locked into a move which isn't effective and/or doesn't deal damage, such as Earthquake against a Flying-type or Toxic against a Poison-type. But it often takes one or two turns for the AI to recognise that their move is ineffective. They also generally won't switch if they're still doing any damage at all, even if it's a miniscule amount thanks to stat changes or similar.
In my recent Pearl challenge run I noticed that opponents facing a Shedinja (or more specifically anything with Wonder Guard) will switch if they do not have a move that can deal direct damage to it, even if they have a move that would kill it indirectly; Sandstorm, for instance. This seems to be due to the AI only considering the current turn, and not thinking to longer strategy; but it begs the question why those that knew a status move didn't use it, since the AI's thinking on that appears to be "does the opponent have a status condition? If no=use status move, if yes=use other attack".
So while the standard in-game AI can and does switch, it's not likely to be any more effective than the facility-level AI... and that's not very smart. Most ordinary NPCs seem to attack fairly randomly (much like wild Pokemon) while boss-level NPCs basically seem to have the strategy "use best available move".
While Geeta's team is admittedly on the eh side, I don't see an issue with Glimmora being her ace. Like yeah, Glimmora's claim to fame in Smogon competitive is hazards, but that's because it's one of the few that has the privilege of having so many hazards capable of setting up in Singles. It's not like that's the only thing it's good for or being capable of. It has a very good stat spread, boasting a strong 525 Base Stat total, an extremely good 130 Special Attack and a good special movepool, and a good 86 Speed and decent 83/90/81, which by all means makes for a strong powerhouse worthy of being an attacker and Geeta's ace. Her Glimmora has good coverage with Sludge Wave, Rock Tera Blast, Earth Power, and Dazzling Gleam and coming off 130 Special Attack that's pretty deadly.
Frankly Glimmora being the face of hazards in Smogon is likely an unintentional use of it and likely not what they had in mind when designing Glimmora. I also imagine Glimmora being Geeta's ace is because it makes thematic sense, since it has very strong ties to the Terastal phenomenon, is noted afterward to be common in Area Zero, and Glimmet crystals being needed to create Tera Blast TMs also implies a connection. Especially since Geeta uses Tera Blast on her own Glimmora, it's a crystal flower so it looks natural in tandem with the Terastallization aesthetic, and she gives out the Tera Blast TM on two occasions.
Also that quote isn't from Geeta, but is from Turo/Sada at the end of the story.
Geeta using Pokemon used by Paldean Gym Leaders is actually a somewhat common occurrence in the games historically, she isn't the first Champion to have that tendency. Cynthia used Roserade and Lucario, the aces of Gardenia and Maylene, while Diantha had Hawlucha, Tyrantrum, and Aurorus, the aces of Korrina and Grant, respectively. Blue in Gen 1 used Alakazam and Rhydon, the aces of Sabrina and Giovanni respectively, as two of his three consistent team members. Steven also used Skarmory, who was used by Winona, and Alder used Vanilluxe, Druddigon, and Bouffalant who were used by previous bosses in BW1.
Really the one major issue I do take with Geeta's team however is her use of Supreme Overlord Kingambit that she has a tendency to send out earlier than when it should be. Kingambit is a legit deadly Pokemon and Supreme Overlord is a strong ability, but unless you play in a way that makes her send it out fifth it ends up never capitalizing on the Supreme Overlord boost as much as she could, even a 1.4x boost from four Pokemon fainting is strong but that's not always guaranteed to happen. Thematically her having Kingambit with the ability also works in her position as La Primera, the Supreme Champion among all of Paldea's Champions, the Top Champion and boss, but she doesn't actually capitalize on it as much as she could.
Armarouge to be fair is effectively the honorary ace of Mela, one of the Team Star bosses, but only in the post-game sadly.
Ceruledge not being used by anyone however is a bit of an oddity yeah.
The anime does seem to be capitalizing on Ceruledge's popularity fortunately however, as the current anime has Amethio, a major antagonist in Horizons atm, use it as his main partner. Armarouge on the other hand is likely to show up, but hasn't done so yet.
While Gholdengo certainly wouldn't be used by just anyone, I think a Champion is special enough where it would be an option open to them.
Also Mela's Signature in rematches is an Armarouge.
I think the main issue people have with Geeta isn't exactly with Geeta herself but an unfortunate precedence GF has now made and I'm not sure if they'll ever quite get out of it: Leon.
You remember Leon? You know, the Galar Champion who was said to be THE GREATEST IN THE WORLD? He wasn't A Champion, he was THE Champion. And that point was constantly hammered into us throughout Gen VIII, if not from the games than the anime where Ash defeating Leon was considered the HIGHEST POINT so much so it ended Ash's role as the main protagonist of the anime.
... SO Geeta had big shoes to fill. Oh, and the way they wrote her didn't quite help in that regard either. Because Geeta isn't just a Champion either, she's TOP Champion, she's the person you need to beat in order to get the Champion title. Which at first sounds like an impressive title, until you realize that all it means if there's other people with Champion titles that means she's the weakest Champion in Paldea cause they would have defeated her... and one said Champion is made your RIVAL and is the true final boss of the Victory Road storyline. I'm sorry Nemona, you can push praise upon La Primera all you want, but we still know you're stronger than her so kind of takes away from Geeta's reputation a bit. Oh, and then they have Geeta give a "I'm a merciless fighter" speech before you battle her... and then you see the team she's using which makes you honestly wonder if the reason there isn't more Champions in Paldea is because Rika keeps failing any potential challenger.
They tried to write Geeta as if she's a super powerful trainer, but she's not. And because of that it just compels people to point out all the flaws in her team and strategy when many of it applies to any boss trainer (I'm sure a competitive player could find plenty fault in Leon's team). But at the very least Leon was the final boss, not only did he have an intimidating looking Gigantamax (of a popular Pokemon) but also used that region's Pseudo Legendary and the other Starter you and Hop didn't pick which made his team stand out. Geeta isn't any of that, so trying to write her up as someone like it only is going to disappoint. If I were writing Geeta, I would not have her give a "I'm a merciless battler" speech but rather keep her as a more instructor-focused character. She'll still say she's a tough opponent and won't hold back, but it'll be more emphasized that her team was made to also test challengers under multiple conditions and how quick they can adapt their strategies to it. That way it at least gives her (or rather GF) an out why she isn't the toughest Champion; Also, she doesn't need to be, because you don't need to be the strongest trainer to be Top Champion in Paldea.
I'll be honest outside of comparing her to Leon in the context of other champion fights, at which point its not just a conversation about Leon's precedent, I don't think anyone complaining about Geeta complains about her in the context of big shoes to fill
Most people very much do not care about Leon being ~the best~. Before this post I hadn't really seen much of anyone specifically single out this scenario any more than, say, comparisons to other good champions like Blue or Cynthia.
Anyway this whole Geeta talk reminds me of something I meant to talk about in the fan content thread but here's fine; someone's been doing a series of AI tournaments using Showdown ( https://www.youtube.com/@pokedad23 ) and of his many tournaments was Champion-Tier level trainers. By his own admission its not perfect, the AI has weird priorities, doesn't understand Zoroark, doesn't fully realize how some moves function and in general it really is just for fun, but the results are pretty interesting relative to Geeta
Namely that while its still prone to just going out of order, Geeta had some of the best consistency of any of the combatants, made it to 3rd place, and likely could have made it to finals if the AI hadn't gotten hung up on certain moves and over prioritization on certain Pokemon
A number of this was on the back of getting Glimmora in earlier and Kingambit in later, but there were matches where they came in at about the same time as usual in her in-game appearence and she still performed really good. Her Espathra is actually a real monsterwhen it isnt spamming quick attack because the AI prioritizes it at low health and even Gogoat & Avalugg pulled some weight
A number of this was on the back of getting Glimmora in earlier and Kingambit in later, but there were matches where they came in at about the same time as usual in her in-game appearence and she still performed really good. Her Espathra is actually a real monster
I know, I was just pointing out threatening the player by having the battle strategy of all the champions of Paldea loses it edges if Geeta is anything to go by.
Very Minor thing, but wasn't Leon only played up as the strongest in Galar in particular by the games? I think it was the Anime with the Masters 8 which made him out to be the Number 1 in the entire World, which might have had a role in Ash being retired since, by winning, he kind of peaked with regards to stories they could tell with him as an underdog.
My thing about Geeta is less ending off with Glimmora than the fact that it's her ace instead of Kingambit as well. Not even just on it being suboptimal usage, but because I don't get what Glimmora has to do with Geeta (if it's for Regional Gimmick purposes, Nemona is who they focus on that gimmick with if anyone since she teaches you and is the most experienced battler). There's not really much of a theme to it and her compared to Blue using his starter, Lance and Steven using Pseudos of their Type Specialty, Cynthia using a clearly-powerfully-designed Psuedo (admittedly tenuous), Alder being designed after a look that ties into Volcarona, or Diantha's Mega Gardevoir resembling her color and Celebrity dress appearance.
This is where Kingambit comes up: Supreme Overlord seems related to one of its Dex entries, entailing it to be powerful but not particularly well organized or a good leader.
Similarly, Geeta is a strong Champion (lore-wise I'm not commenting difficulty) and runs the League/Academy, but multiple lines with the other Gym Leaders (most infamously Larry) paint a less than flattering picture of her as a boss. Kingambit's practically handed to her on a silver platter for that theme, and it's not like Champions with past-Gen Aces is out of place (Lance's Dragonite, Diantha's Gardevoir, and most notably Leon's Charizard), and Kingambit is at least a Paldea Pokemon itself even with a cross-gen relation.
Glimmora is a weird off putting kind of toxic individual, that is directly connected to the crater and I think its implied (might be confusing it with someone's head canon) that Geeta invented the Tera Blast TM through it; it was also deemed important enough to point out in our descent in Area Zero.
Geeta is a weird off putting kind of toxic individual. Half the people who work under her either hate her or fear her (& Nemona is the only one who uncritically loves her), she throws her power around to get people to obey, she's got very interesting mannerisms...honestly purely in terms of personality & mannerisms I like Glimmora more than Kingambit, even if there's plenty about Kingambit that also works with her (the hair makes me think they were literally designed by the same person). To me it adds a lot to her character.
Geeta is a weird off putting kind of toxic individual. Half the people who work under her either hate her or fear her (& Nemona is the only one who uncritically loves her), she throws her power around to get people to obey, she's got very interesting mannerisms...honestly purely in terms of personality & mannerisms I like Glimmora more than Kingambit, even if there's plenty about Kingambit that also works with her (the hair makes me think they were literally designed by the same person). To me it adds a lot to her character.