yea but one thing....
1HKO moves are banned in competative play....
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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1HKO moves are banned in competative play....
Current discussion
Marowak, Phione,
Banished to BL. (bye bye)
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom
UU's in testing
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable
BL's moved down to UU.
- Claydol and Cloyster
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Steelix (Very Low)
-Drapion (Very Low)
-Leafeon (Low)
-Jynx (Low/Average)
-Regigigas (Low/Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon
Widely Acceptable NFE's.
-Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover, Hippopatas
Marowak, Phione,
Banished to BL. (bye bye)
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom
UU's in testing
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable
BL's moved down to UU.
- Claydol and Cloyster
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Steelix (Very Low)
-Drapion (Very Low)
-Leafeon (Low)
-Jynx (Low/Average)
-Regigigas (Low/Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon
Widely Acceptable NFE's.
-Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover, Hippopatas
Scyther should be tested some more. Its evolution Scizor is definately strong enough for BL or maybe OU, but Scyther? I'm not sure.
A crippling weakness to Ice, Fire and even a x4 weakness to Rock, which means very weak to Stealth Rock. It doesn't really help giving Scyther a chance in the higher tiers.
Steelix should stay in BL. Torterra has that x4 weakness but also has a lot of potentional in BL with its nice STAB for EQ. I have no idea about Entei.
Walrein can be really annoying if Hail is active. He's a real staller. But usually it gets its ass kicked by a Fighting type with CC.
About Marowak: his Attack stat is raised with its held item, and with a couple of Swords Dances, it hits HARD. I suggest keeping the masked hitter in BL.
Phione? Nobody uses it and it's nothing too powerful, especially not compared with its uber buddy Manaphy. UU is the place it needs to be.
A crippling weakness to Ice, Fire and even a x4 weakness to Rock, which means very weak to Stealth Rock. It doesn't really help giving Scyther a chance in the higher tiers.
Steelix should stay in BL. Torterra has that x4 weakness but also has a lot of potentional in BL with its nice STAB for EQ. I have no idea about Entei.
Walrein can be really annoying if Hail is active. He's a real staller. But usually it gets its ass kicked by a Fighting type with CC.
About Marowak: his Attack stat is raised with its held item, and with a couple of Swords Dances, it hits HARD. I suggest keeping the masked hitter in BL.
Phione? Nobody uses it and it's nothing too powerful, especially not compared with its uber buddy Manaphy. UU is the place it needs to be.
My ideas.
Ok, fine. Pass it one agility. It doesn't even need swords dance. Magmortar needs an Agility to effectivly sweep a team. Some things just need one extra boost. That doesn't make them UU.
Ok ... you want to contribute to discussion, that's good.
However simply stating that X should Y is not really all that helpful, unless you back your point up with evidence from a battle or theorymon, somthing that will encourage further discussion.
Unfortunately the majority of the primary UU physical sweepers can 2HKO him, which is kind of a problem when your main role is as a phyiscal wall.
Marowak's longevity in OU is irrelevant, the two metagames are too different to illicit comparison. Also sweeping statements about centralisation are all very well and good, but unless its actually tested we won't know for certain one way or the other.
i must say from my experience of using him, that even with average hits i was 3hkoed. that might not seem so bad with hydrorest but he cant do anything much back, and then rain runs out :S
note that i had a pretty hardcore defensive invesment (was running rain dance, rest, u-turn, toxic w/wet rock)
Can, any pokemon allowed in UU right take 2 hits from an Adamant/Jolly Marowak? I mentioned before that it's like a Choice Band user, but it can switch moves.
Marowak's defenses are quite shoddy, but they're just enough to take an attack (not super effective) and KO or severely damage the attacker right back. It forces every single water to be faster than a Jolly Wak or get 2HKO'd.
Perhaps people are seeing things from a different perspective. Granted it doesn't have many things to switch in on but once it does you better look out.
Marowak's defenses are quite shoddy, but they're just enough to take an attack (not super effective) and KO or severely damage the attacker right back. It forces every single water to be faster than a Jolly Wak or get 2HKO'd.
Perhaps people are seeing things from a different perspective. Granted it doesn't have many things to switch in on but once it does you better look out.
Well, Marowak is a lot like Rhyperior. It can hit things extremely hard, but so much carries super-effective stuff against Ground, and being so slow, it has trouble switching in, and even getting off a hit if it came in on a revenge-kill.
It essentially has to take 2 hits to come in and actually do an attack, which it most likely won't survive. Even if it survives one hit and kills something, it's not going to be taking another hit unless it was BPed Speed.
It essentially has to take 2 hits to come in and actually do an attack, which it most likely won't survive. Even if it survives one hit and kills something, it's not going to be taking another hit unless it was BPed Speed.
I frequently use a Marowak on shoddy, and it is quite powerful. The problem with it is that it is somewhat like a weaker Rampardos. It has all of that attack, but it is quite difficult to take advantage of it. it cant take hits very well, has very common weaknesses, and requires an elaborate setup in order to be effective. Its speed troubles are not as easily overcome as Rampardos' because you cant just slap a scarf on it thanks to thick club. sure it is powerful, and not much can take hits from it, but it is quite slow and is easily ko'd.
Seeing as how the discussion over Tenta being OU nearly derailed this topic, perhaps we could have a new topic to discuss how the placement of pokes like Tenta should be handled?
People play UU to get away from OU, this is true. However, there are two kinds of OU: there is the Garchomp-class that takes up the top 10 in the ladder useage on Shoddy and makes up half or more of most teams. Then there is the niche OU, the oddball that can do something good because of a perfect storm of metagame factors. If the UU players were as opposed to these pokemon being allowed in UU (provided they don't break it, of course), then would we be asking for Tenta to at least be discussed?
There are always going to be pokes on the usage line, and no one who plays UU wants to see Hitmontop or Froslass or whatever switch tiers every time they become the flavor of the month. Deciding how to handle these cases needs to be done, because how they are currently handled isn't working very well, if Tenta is any indication.
I would like to second Phione and Marowak for testing in UU. Wak is a glass cannon that crawls like a snail, while Phione is a more different Dewgong. Testing them isn't going to hurt anyone.
This has already been done quite recently (less than 2 months ago). Go here to see the discussion. It was decided by chaos that that is the way we should handle OUs. It's useless to discuss it all over again, as the same conclusion would be reached.
There aren't two kinds of OU. All of them are the same, in the sense that all of them are commonly used.
Exactly. And that's true whichever usage line you take, right? And the tiers are changed every 3 months anyway.
Honestly I think Phione is already UU... I don't know from what basis people are saying he's OU or even uber. It's listed incorrectly as NFE in the Smogon tiers... that's all.
Yeah, actually Claydol is probably the best one, resisting Earthquake and Stone Edge and is neutral to Fire Punch and Double-Edge (Double-Edge is probably the only move that would leave a mark and is rarely used unless you hate Swords Dance). And then if you factor in that he gets no Ice Punch... then you could possibly say that Ground-types that aren't weak to Earthquake, like Quagsire and Gastradon (I don't really want to factor in Sandslash only because he doesn't really carry a move that can be used against Marowak, while Gastradon and Quagsire do) can also be decent switch-ins. I'm also factoring that Gastradon and Quagsire switch into either Fire Punch or Stone Edge, because there are Bulky Waters that are much faster than Quagsire and Gastradon.
And as far as I compare it, it's a slower Rampardos that can't use an item. He can sort of take a hit, but not like Rhyperior can, and if you really want to factor Rhyperior's ass Speed, at least both Rampardos and Rhyperior have Rock Polish, unlike Marowak. If Marowak had Rock Polish, I bet he'd be used a bit more often than he is now.
in a locked topic a few days back, obi statd it should be uber.
Obi stated that if Pokemon X is in tier Y, then all of its pre-evolutions, if any, should also end up in tier Y. That's why he said that Phione is uber.
However, even though Phione is a pre-evolution to Manaphy, it doesn't evolve into any Pokemon. Hence, it is not even a NFE in the first place: it should be considered to be a Pokemon like Girafarig, not like Growlithe. That's my personal opinion.
However, even though Phione is a pre-evolution to Manaphy, it doesn't evolve into any Pokemon. Hence, it is not even a NFE in the first place: it should be considered to be a Pokemon like Girafarig, not like Growlithe. That's my personal opinion.
i am inclined to agree.
i see phione as more like volbeat is to illumise (i know its not quite the same, but its as close as it gets imo)
volbeat can be spawned from illumise, but doesnt become illumise.
therefore, if illumise suddenly became OU, volbeat would be left where it was. the same theory applies to phione imo, as it doesnt become manaphy. its just as fully evolved as volbeat was.
i see phione as more like volbeat is to illumise (i know its not quite the same, but its as close as it gets imo)
volbeat can be spawned from illumise, but doesnt become illumise.
therefore, if illumise suddenly became OU, volbeat would be left where it was. the same theory applies to phione imo, as it doesnt become manaphy. its just as fully evolved as volbeat was.
Seriously, Claydol works really well as a spinner in OU, so him in UU is a big mistake.
It's amazing how so many people still don't understand how the tiers work. Just because Claydol is UU does not mean it is banned from the higher tiers (EDIT: this is directed at NoMercy, not you Shiny Oddish, I know you understand how the tiers work). IMO Claydol serves to balance the UU metagame with its unique combination of resistances allowing it to counter threats like Hitmonlee much more reliably than anything else can, so I see it as more of a necessity in UU than a luxury.
Gastrodon and Quagsire are bad examples due to the fact that they are even slower than Marowak himself, therefore even if you do predict a Stone Edge or Fire Punch, you have to make sure you are bulky enough to take a STAB Earthquake off 568 attack on top of the previous blow. Faster bulky waters such as Blastoise as has already been mentioned work better as they require only a small EV investment to outrun JollyWak AND threaten an OHKO immediately. However, even max defense Blastoise risks losing ~60% of its HP by switching into Earthquake. This is really the main problem I have with it. The fact that EVERY UU Pokemon is at risk just to threaten it at no detriment to Marowak itself (it will never be locked into a move, so if they predict a set up turn, you WILL get punished for it).
Having said that I'm not opposed to it being tested, I'm just currently against it until proven otherwise. I'm taking a break from competitive battling for a while due to being busy with Uni work, so I'm really looking for more opinions from people who have done extensive testing with it in a variety of roles. Remember, it doesn't need to sweep teams in order to be unbalancing.
Gastrodon and Quagsire are bad examples due to the fact that they are even slower than Marowak himself, therefore even if you do predict a Stone Edge or Fire Punch, you have to make sure you are bulky enough to take a STAB Earthquake off 568 attack on top of the previous blow. Faster bulky waters such as Blastoise as has already been mentioned work better as they require only a small EV investment to outrun JollyWak AND threaten an OHKO immediately. However, even max defense Blastoise risks losing ~60% of its HP by switching into Earthquake. This is really the main problem I have with it. The fact that EVERY UU Pokemon is at risk just to threaten it at no detriment to Marowak itself (it will never be locked into a move, so if they predict a set up turn, you WILL get punished for it).
Having said that I'm not opposed to it being tested, I'm just currently against it until proven otherwise. I'm taking a break from competitive battling for a while due to being busy with Uni work, so I'm really looking for more opinions from people who have done extensive testing with it in a variety of roles. Remember, it doesn't need to sweep teams in order to be unbalancing.
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