Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Ctann]

Garganacl is arguably dealt with very easily. It’s just meta unwilling to deal with it specifically. You have options like substitute, covert cloak, grass coverage, etc.

its the most predictable of the “strong” threats.

meanwhile the only way you can deal with kingambit is by spamming gholdengo/dragapult and other Pokémon that can force it to come in earlier in the game.

valiant is no where near where it was before thanks to new reliable checks like landorus, enamorous and zapdos, that can make a dent in it at worse.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Garganacl is arguably dealt with very easily. It’s just meta unwilling to deal with it specifically. You have options like substitute, covert cloak, grass coverage, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't sets already catered to dealing with these options? Like curse sets up and can eventually beat some sub threats, grass coverage means little because tera, and Covert Cloak is Covert Cloak. The pros and cons of Cloak have been discussed enough I think and opinions are pretty set on it. Only new thing to add is how meta has made it so cloak is more unfavorable to run on more moms than before.

 

[MrE]

Working on a tier list rn. So far here is my progress.

View attachment 529779
These two were a given. The role compression can’t be ignored. Having several different roles on a team and several sets to toy around with. With Tusk I’ve seen Eject Pack, Booster Energy, Rocky Helmet, etc. Gambit just does everything from being a breaker to a ghost resist to a cleaner to a rkiller. Having either one of these mons on a team has very little opportunity cost just cause of what they bring to teams and Home hasn’t changed that.

View attachment 529782
An incredibly versatile speedy boi that fits on almost every team. There is the Specs, Hex, and Band sets but recently we’ve seen Pult take on the role of a screen setter, and a damn good one. This thing is just too versatile to pass off something. Even with Garg making a resurgence that hasn’t stopped Pult from absolutely flourishing in this meta.

View attachment 529784Kyurem 2.0 has been making waves on ladder and tours. It has tons of Teras to abuse such as Tera Fairy, Dragon, Electric, or Ice. One wrong move vs Bax results in a sweep and due to Tera + its bulk, the window for error is low.
Enamorus is Tapu Lele on serious crack. Perfect coverage with the defensive typing to switch into Tusk. There have been appearances of Tera Steel Enamorus that ruin would be checks like Glowking and Ghold. A versatile breaker and cleaner.
Salt rock is back on the map. Even with Home being slightly more hostile and HO-oriented, Garg still got it in terms of providing utility and making constant progress with stupid ass Salt Cure. This has already been said but there is less Covert Cloak usage which will likely come back soon since Garg is surging in popularity.
Ghold does Ghold things. Blocks hazard removal, sets up NP, MiR, Fairy resist, etc. I would put this higher but the meta has adapted to it very well. Stuff that is supposed to check it like Valiant can click Tera Dark or Steel and ruin its day.
Speaking of Valiant, there is very little it can’t do. Between the different teras and utility moves like Encore and Destiny Bond that are game changers. Valiant is just so difficult to read due to the vast library of books it has on it’s shelves.
Dire Claw is broken, Sneasler can mess up teams with SD Unburden. Either Tera Ghost or Dark to mow through would be checks like Ghold and Glowking, or Tera Ground to also hit Pex. Plus it is a great anti-lead vs Samu with Fake Out. A massive threat that can cheese games.
Glowking has been popping off since Home came out. Lots of different moves to make use of besides FS + Chilly Reception. We’ve seen Trick Black Sludge, T-Wave, Flamethrower, even T-Spikes. It soft checks a ton of Pokes in the meta and a slow Regen pivot is always appreciated in the offensive metagame of SV OU.
Zapdos is Top 5 and you can’t tell me otherwise. It just does so much offensively and defensively. No Defog sucks but it hits like a truck while punishing physical attackers with Static in a tier that is stacked with them. Ground immunity that can spread paralysis, pivot, and hit hard.

If anyone has recommendations for placements. Let me know.

I think what's most interesting about this is despite having gotten a bunch of new (old) mons into the tier things are still completely dominated by Gen 9, and it's not just Gen 9 it's gen 8 too with Zapdos being the only mon outside of the past 2 gens to make the list. The power creep has been strong in this one.

I think more and more the gen is starting to resemble gen 5 with insane power creep due to all the new centralising threats and nobody really being able to pinpoint EXACTLY what is wrong with the gen and what makes everything feel so broken.

I’ll agree that this meta is in a weird state atm. In order to help improve the tier going forward, what I would suggest is:

• Retest Volcarona <-I just wanna protest
• Suspect Test Kingambit <-Seriously fuck this guy
• Suspect Test Sneasler <-Dire Claw is unskilled and allows Sneasler to cheese pass its C&C
• Suspect Test Garganacl <-Salt Cure, Purifying Salt. Yeah, fuck this thing too ​

For those of you that think that Tera should be retested, I don’t have a problem with that. What I do have a problem is the suggestion of Tera Restrictions. Shoutouts to the NDOU Council: View attachment 529826
While National Dex has nothing to do with the tier itself, I just wanted to point out that they are handling it the right way. When it comes to Tera, you keep it as it is, or you ban it as a whole. There is no in-betweens. So, please stop suggesting Open Tera Previews or Restricting Tera to one Pokémon. It doesn’t solve anything. You’re still playing 50/50 games if the Pokémon is gonna Tera or not, further more it still gets its adaptability or triple stab boosts thanks to Tera along with its new typing. So I don’t understand how these restrictions help fix the problem with Tera. Me personally, I don’t have a problem with the mechanic, I think it’s fine just the way it is. Hopefully after the suspect test of , we can start making moves for a more fun and healthy meta. Of course with Tera.

Agree with all of this. The fundamental problem with Tera and why all these restrictions people harp on about won't work is the TIMING of the tera, even if there's only one mon that can tera, until it tera's whenever it's on the field you still have the mind games of 'will this mon tera this turn or not' and the most riskless play is often completely different for the scenarios of tera or no tera. Also let's say we do decide to start restricting tera, how much time are we going to lose to tera suspects if we find out that even restricted tera is still busted? There's so many questionable mons rn that deserve to be looked at where are we going to get the time to sort this gen out from? It takes about a month to suspect something, just in your post alone there's 5 months worth of work and we don't even know if unbanning Volc and banning Sneasler, Gambi, Garg and Tera will actually fix the gen.

 

[Ctann]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't sets already catered to dealing with these options? Like curse sets up and can eventually beat some sub threats, grass coverage means little because tera, and Covert Cloak is Covert Cloak. The pros and cons of Cloak have been discussed enough I think and opinions are pretty set on it. Only new thing to add is how meta has made it so cloak is more unfavorable to run on more moms than before.

you’re creating a rock, scissors, paper argument here.

It’s the most consistent sets that are relevant. For example a curse + EQ set that’s designed to deal with gholdengo specifically gets overwhelmed more easily by strong hitters than a set with protect or ID.

theres item independent Pokémon like landorus, amoonguss, toxapex, gholdengo, etc that can run cloak and sacrifice the tiniest of tiny bits of utility for more favorable garganacl matchups, and a few other Pokémon’s too. Sneasler has been cited earlier, there’s also hatterene and misc 20-30% drop chances like shadow ball.

sub isn’t really meta right now, but encore really is, I’ve seen encore spam as a way that offensive teams break garganacl, since if it’s forced to switch out when it’s sub 70%, and there’s hazards… Garg is as good as fainted against those teams.

Garg isn’t really in the same conversation as kingambit. Although I don’t think valiant is in the conversation either anymore, there’s more bulky, high BST Pokémon that can take some valiant moves.

-

kingambit is high on its perch above the next most relevant blind Tera receiver. That 2nd position is likely baxcalibur rather than valiant. If Volcarona was OU it’d likely be 5th or lower, lol.

 

[Ctann]

Agree with all of this. The fundamental problem with Tera and why all these restrictions people harp on about won't work is the TIMING of the tera, even if there's only one mon that can tera, until it tera's whenever it's on the field you still have the mind games of 'will this mon tera this turn or not' and the most riskless play is often completely different for the scenarios of tera or no tera.

Disagree with this line of thinking. Knowing the Tera type means you can spam certain moves, usually stab, liberally.

Example using valiant/gambit:

if valiant knows that gambit is a fairy type Tera, it can spam moonblast more liberally. if you are wondering if it’s a fire type, you don’t have this type of freedom.

This also makes specs sets more viable, as you’ll know you can safely use the moonblast nuke without getting setup on at any point by the opposing gambit. So this improves overall set diversity rather than valiant always being energy booster.

to continue on the example of the more viable specs valiant, you suddenly can run aura sphere viably. And then if it is a Tera fire type, you have the confidence that your aura sphere will do at least 50% to it, even if the moonblast can’t.

there’s lots of small things that add up when you can actually plan the game flow.

Using gambit as an example, the only way you can plan game flow around beating it now is by attracting it in and getting it sub 60% by using ghosts and similar.

you cannot reliably beat gambit any other way unless you’re running multiple checks for the end game, example trick gholdengo + anything strong enough to OHKO it.

needikg 3 bodies thrown at a threat to “reliably” deal with it , isn’t healthy. That’s more chances for a game ending crit, or game ending miss, etc.

meanwhile by having Tera preview you can expect to see more viable choice users, especially scarf, more viable set diversity and ideally more emerging Pokémon that can actually make an impact in a game, outside of the 20 Pokémon that matter rn.

-

These are reasons why it’s worth trying restricting Tera before banning it outright

 

[Turtlek]

Hi, I’ve had some success with Tera Ghost Tusk. What do y’all think about it? I thought it was useful for making Zama and ID corv setup fodder.

 

[Finchinator]

Zama-H vote is now up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-3-voting.3723659/

 

[Delibird Heart]

I think what's most interesting about this is despite having gotten a bunch of new (old) mons into the tier things are still completely dominated by Gen 9, and it's not just Gen 9 it's gen 8 too with Zapdos being the only mon outside of the past 2 gens to make the list. The power creep has been strong in this one.

While I think this is at least partly true, the "power creep" phenomenon is wildly exacerbated by the fact the a lot of very good mons from past gens have either lost a lot of important moves (Lando-T losing defog AND knock off is the biggest example of this, but far from the only notable one, just look at poor weavile), or are simply missing entirely, but would perform well in the current meta (keldeo, tapu fini and buzzwole love that the best mon in the tier is dark type, clefable and ferrothorn are balance staples that would instantly boost the playstyle's viability back up (especially clef who shits all over big tusk), and Sneasler and Valiant, while strong in their own right, cannot hold half a fucking candle to the terror of Lele, Kart and Blacephalon). Let's not pretend all the new mons are THAT much better than the old ones. They're simply not here to compete or got nerfed to hell.
A third category added is mons that simply need their buddies to come out and play. Tyranitar, past gens OU staple, is completely useless if there are no sand abusers in the tier (as is currently the case).

I like the tier list that was made earlier in the thread. Think I'll try to come up with one my own once I get back from work today.

 

[Hpdsd]

After playing an absolute ton of Freedom cup these past few days I've come a conclusion.

OU should have an item clause. I've found having to manage what mons have what items completely changes the balance of the game and makes it a lot more fair. Especially when you can only have one Boots mon, one Leftovers mon, and most importantly one Booster Energy mon and it also brings a greater variety to the tier IMO using pinch berries, resistance berry's and other items I'd never normally use.

For this idea to work Gholdengo and possibly H-Rott need to go as Hazards Stack is simply not manageable for defensive builds without running 3+ Boots users at the moment.

 

[malomyotismon]

People for keeping zamazenta vs People wanting to ban Zamazenta

 

[WildWave]

These are reasons why it’s worth trying restricting Tera before banning it outright

That’s just a compromise give me a break.

 

[zReptar]

National Dex is suspecting Tera again....
I knew that Nat Dex doesn't affect us but https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...erastallization-re-test.3723497/#post-9679212

I mean bruv they have tera megas AND z moves all 3 is to much

 

[TCTphantom]

Zama-H vote is now up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-3-voting.3723659/

Gonna predict ~57% pro ban majority and Zama H survives.

Just from reading the vibe on ladder and on here I think there’s a real shot of it surviving.

 

[awyp]

Disagree with this line of thinking. Knowing the Tera type means you can spam certain moves, usually stab, liberally.

Example using valiant/gambit:

if valiant knows that gambit is a fairy type Tera, it can spam moonblast more liberally. if you are wondering if it’s a fire type, you don’t have this type of freedom.

This also makes specs sets more viable, as you’ll know you can safely use the moonblast nuke without getting setup on at any point by the opposing gambit. So this improves overall set diversity rather than valiant always being energy booster.

to continue on the example of the more viable specs valiant, you suddenly can run aura sphere viably. And then if it is a Tera fire type, you have the confidence that your aura sphere will do at least 50% to it, even if the moonblast can’t.

there’s lots of small things that add up when you can actually plan the game flow.

Using gambit as an example, the only way you can plan game flow around beating it now is by attracting it in and getting it sub 60% by using ghosts and similar.

you cannot reliably beat gambit any other way unless you’re running multiple checks for the end game, example trick gholdengo + anything strong enough to OHKO it.

needikg 3 bodies thrown at a threat to “reliably” deal with it , isn’t healthy. That’s more chances for a game ending crit, or game ending miss, etc.

meanwhile by having Tera preview you can expect to see more viable choice users, especially scarf, more viable set diversity and ideally more emerging Pokémon that can actually make an impact in a game, outside of the 20 Pokémon that matter rn.

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These are reasons why it’s worth trying restricting Tera before banning it outright

I agree with Ctann, the reality is if we only have two choices ban or no ban there might be a favor towards no ban to keep the mechanic even though Tera might be a lot sometimes it might not be enough to warranty a ban. I feel like having an option of restrictions can be the best way to get both sides to come to a compromise (I’m talking about the first suspect test regarding Tera)

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Gonna predict ~57% pro ban majority and Zama H survives.

Just from reading the vibe on ladder and on here I think there’s a real shot of it surviving.

I'm gonna guess it survives too

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Power creep does a number on everyone it seems. With a new gen come new things to mald about. First there was Walking Wake being "overpowered" (it was kinda hard to stop). Then we had HOME releasing bullshit like Ursaluna - which wont get any weaker. And now we got advocates for keeping or banning Quick Claw. I'm not even gonna lie before i saw the Monoclaw replays Delibird Heart sent, I didn't even know that item was allowed in OU. Like yes it's annoying, and things CAN make it work, but more often than not you need to put yourself in a situation were you dont need it to proc in order to win as shown by the screens Quick Claw team Delibird has used. But everything that was obscene died down after people figured out how to handle it.

Speaking of screens, Light Clay. This gen has brought up new things I never seen discussed and shit so broken it's laughable how they were allowed in this tier. From Palafin being a literal legendary pokemon when it s w i t c h e s to Flutter Mane being THE special attacker of all-time, Light Clay surprises me. The hype died down because Magearna isn't here to carry screens (or Trick Room) and before Mono Claw, it kinda died after the HOME rave. Then like 2 weeks later, it pops up again. Now, I personally don't like screens. It's a dumb out for any team that basically tells you the opponent is bad at the game and is relying on screens to win (even in the 1800+ elo rank). And unlike many things, you cant just out dual screens. You need to get rid of the setter, and the screens themselves. There are 3 moves in the entire game that can do this: Brick Break, Psychic Fangs, and Defog. Yes you can search it up yourself - Defog removes screens. But barely any team can afford Brick Break or Psychic Fangs simply because their power gap between Psychic and Close Combat. And if you're running Corviknight on every team (which mind you can't beat a Guts Ursaluna), then people will find ways to beat it and we're back at square 1 with how to beat screens. If that Quick Claw team is used in a PL, on someone's stream and on Team of the Week because of literally 2 items, then you should do something about it. Especially if it just came out from the depths of nothing just a day or 2 ago.

In conclusion, this meta is wild and stupid and I hope gen 10 (i dont wanna hear the Ben 10 jokes) will be not as broke when it comes to power creep otherwise Chi-Yu is going to be C tier in UU someday.

 

[Goodstyle]

Restricting Tera before banning Gambit is the move IMO. I voted to restrict it with team preview way back in the day and was shocked when that lost. We need to undo that mistake.

Also, banning Gambit before dealing with Garg will just make people want to ban Garg and make the metagame especially toxic. The metagame revolving around Gambit and Tusk is at least fun and exciting. Literally a chess piece designed for the Endgame... fun mechanic.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Restricting Tera before banning Gambit is the move IMO. I voted to restrict it with team preview way back in the day and was shocked when that lost. We need to undo that mistake.

Also, banning Gambit before dealing with Garg will just make people want to ban Garg and make the metagame especially toxic. The metagame revolving around Gambit and Tusk is at least fun and exciting. Literally a chess piece designed for the Endgame... fun mechanic.

*Queen in checkmate*

The bishop 100 miles away:

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Restricting Tera before banning Gambit is the move IMO. I voted to restrict it with team preview way back in the day and was shocked when that lost. We need to undo that mistake.

Also, banning Gambit before dealing with Garg will just make people want to ban Garg and make the metagame especially toxic. The metagame revolving around Gambit and Tusk is at least fun and exciting. Literally a chess piece designed for the Endgame... fun mechanic.

Either way whether a restriction or ban (Which I may try to get reqs to vote full ban) something needs to be done.

 

[MrE]

Power creep does a number on everyone it seems. With a new gen come new things to mald about. First there was Walking Wake being "overpowered" (it was kinda hard to stop). Then we had HOME releasing bullshit like Ursaluna - which wont get any weaker. And now we got advocates for keeping or banning Quick Claw. I'm not even gonna lie before i saw the Monoclaw replays Delibird Heart sent, I didn't even know that item was allowed in OU. Like yes it's annoying, and things CAN make it work, but more often than not you need to put yourself in a situation were you dont need it to proc in order to win as shown by the screens Quick Claw team Delibird has used. But everything that was obscene died down after people figured out how to handle it.

Speaking of screens, Light Clay. This gen has brought up new things I never seen discussed and shit so broken it's laughable how they were allowed in this tier. From Palafin being a literal legendary pokemon when it s w i t c h e s to Flutter Mane being THE special attacker of all-time, Light Clay surprises me. The hype died down because Magearna isn't here to carry screens (or Trick Room) and before Mono Claw, it kinda died after the HOME rave. Then like 2 weeks later, it pops up again. Now, I personally don't like screens. It's a dumb out for any team that basically tells you the opponent is bad at the game and is relying on screens to win (even in the 1800+ elo rank). And unlike many things, you cant just out dual screens. You need to get rid of the setter, and the screens themselves. There are 3 moves in the entire game that can do this: Brick Break, Psychic Fangs, and Defog. Yes you can search it up yourself - Defog removes screens. But barely any team can afford Brick Break or Psychic Fangs simply because their power gap between Psychic and Close Combat. And if you're running Corviknight on every team (which mind you can't beat a Guts Ursaluna), then people will find ways to beat it and we're back at square 1 with how to beat screens. If that Quick Claw team is used in a PL, on someone's stream and on Team of the Week because of literally 2 items, then you should do something about it. Especially if it just came out from the depths of nothing just a day or 2 ago.

In conclusion, this meta is wild and stupid and I hope gen 10 (i dont wanna hear the Ben 10 jokes) will be not as broke when it comes to power creep otherwise Chi-Yu is going to be C tier in UU someday.

You can court change screens too.

 

[Ctann]

Restricting Tera before banning Gambit is the move IMO. I voted to restrict it with team preview way back in the day and was shocked when that lost. We need to undo that mistake.

Also, banning Gambit before dealing with Garg will just make people want to ban Garg and make the metagame especially toxic. The metagame revolving around Gambit and Tusk is at least fun and exciting. Literally a chess piece designed for the Endgame... fun mechanic.

you misspelled dragapult lol, and maybe gholdengo.

they increase in usage > then Garg usage increase follows > then covert cloak spam becomes meta

kingambit doesn’t suppress Garg seeing as it can’t switch in.

Garg doesn’t suppress kingambit too.

they’re matchup neutral, since Garg is basically always water. Neither like to switch into the other. Neither forces the other out (non-late game).

Garg and gambit have anti-synergy on the same team, since both will really want to get the Tera.

In end game… there’s very few Pokémon that are matchup neutral to kingambit, Garg definitely isn’t one of them.

although I’m in agreement about focusing on Tera before kingambit.

kingambit will feel significantly less OP when it’s not gonna get a guaranteed +2 and maybe figure out a way through your 4 checks.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Man, here we are 7 months later and it still turns out that a `mon's typing is one of the things that helps keep it balanced. It's almost like Gambit was intended to have an exploitable 4x weakness, Garg was intended to have one of the worst defensive types in the game, and Gholdengo was intended to be an over-centralizing meme because some dev's kid was obsessed with String Cheese!

In all seriousness, one of the problems with Gambit is that it doesn't even need the "one free turn" from Tera. It's bulky enough that it just needs to not have that 4x weakness. Like, Band Breloom can't guarantee the kill on Tera Dark with Mach Punch (not that band Breloom is ideal, just illustrating the power). If Gambit is already boosted, freaking Iron Hands needs to be running CC instead of Drain Punch (or even Low Kick) to assure the KO on Tera Dark or else risk dropping to +2 Low Kick -> Sucker Punch. Now consider an actual good defensive type and it's too easy for Gambit to get the boosts it needs to clean or just avoid Sucker Punch 50/50s because of its ability to tank neutral hits or even moderately powerful SE hits. And the higher in ladder you get, the more players know when it's likely worth preserving their tera for a late Gambit sweep instead of panic clicking it early to avoid/nab a KO elsewhere.

 

[Negative Charge]

Gambit is broken with Tera imo, much like Volc. It is the ultimate comeback mon and having 4+ viable tera options contributes to the matchup fiesta that is the current metagame. The cost benefit of throwing Kingambit on a team is extremely high in an unhealthy way imo, there are mons with high usage rates that correlate with role compression, Gambit's high usage is correlated with being an OP bulky sweeper than can claw losses into wins given the right tera.

 

[kosecant]

Man, here we are 7 months later and it still turns out that a `mon's typing is one of the things that helps keep it balanced. It's almost like Gambit was intended to have an exploitable 4x weakness, Garg was intended to have one of the worst defensive types in the game, and Gholdengo was intended to be an over-centralizing meme because some dev's kid was obsessed with String Cheese!

In all seriousness, one of the problems with Gambit is that it doesn't even need the "one free turn" from Tera. It's bulky enough that it just needs to not have that 4x weakness. Like, Band Breloom can't guarantee the kill on Tera Dark with Mach Punch (not that band Breloom is ideal, just illustrating the power). If Gambit is already boosted, freaking Iron Hands needs to be running CC instead of Drain Punch (or even Low Kick) to assure the KO on Tera Dark or else risk dropping to +2 Low Kick -> Sucker Punch. Now consider an actual good defensive type and it's too easy for Gambit to get the boosts it needs to clean or just avoid Sucker Punch 50/50s because of its ability to tank neutral hits or even moderately powerful SE hits. And the higher in ladder you get, the more players know when it's likely worth preserving their tera for a late Gambit sweep instead of panic clicking it early to avoid/nab a KO elsewhere.

To be fair, breloom should always be faster than gambit and should click spore 100% of the time. It’s actually a very solid late game check to kingambit because of that, and should genuinely be ran more for those needing an answer to gambit

 

[AM]

After playing an absolute ton of Freedom cup these past few days I've come a conclusion.

OU should have an item clause. I've found having to manage what mons have what items completely changes the balance of the game and makes it a lot more fair. Especially when you can only have one Boots mon, one Leftovers mon, and most importantly one Booster Energy mon and it also brings a greater variety to the tier IMO using pinch berries, resistance berry's and other items I'd never normally use.

Freedom Cup is bottom 1 format ever made. That format is horrible and should never be used as an example for anything in an official format. More power to the people that enjoy it but no sir/maam.