Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Froctopus said:
Look I agree with your stance that over a spread of 50 games the quick claw should win only 10 of those games. I like the idea of keeping claw in because their may be a chance that you can clutch a out a revenge kill. Some may call that cheese/hax but I think it's a strategic decision in team building (much like running something like T-wave or Will-o-wisp will have a similar effect on the outcome of the game.)

However I think you go a little too far in wanting to unban evasion. Evasion moves are different from quick-claw because you are guaranteed to activate the evasion move more than once, causing a snowball effect to be unhittable. Be my guest if you want to run the move gravity in 2023, but even gravity doesn't make a move 100% accurate on an evasive target. Another reason you wouldn't want to gravity is because it has the similar problem to trick room, there is a 5 turn timer (essentially 4 since it takes a turn to set up) that has to be done by a specific setter. But unlike trick room (where your setters are stated to have the lowest speed possible), your team can't take advantage of it because you aren't guaranteed to hit the opponent anyway.
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i didnt mean evasion moves, just the abilities like snow cloak and sand veil. Evasion moves can stay in purgatory
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898655178

Here's a game i just played against the "infamous" quick claw team. bro had a high 1700s rating and dual screens, still got demolished because using quick claw meant his sets sucked. no guts on ursaluna, no sucker punch on gambit, no leftovers on iron hands, all of which come into play.

Let me reiterate this item is cool and goofy but completely useless on switches, when using setup moves, or if youre in different priority brackets. In a fast paced setup metagame, this is over 50% of turns. For these teams to work they require you to stay in and bank on risky 20% chances, and unlike OHKO moves, getting it to activate doesnt automatically knock out a pokemon or win games.
 
tommytt22 said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898655178

Here's a game i just played against the "infamous" quick claw team. bro had a high 1700s rating and dual screens, still got demolished because using quick claw meant his sets sucked. no guts on ursaluna, no sucker punch on gambit, no leftovers on iron hands, all of which come into play.

Let me reiterate this item is cool and goofy but completely useless on switches, when using setup moves, or if youre in different priority brackets. In a fast paced setup metagame, this is over 50% of turns. For these teams to work they require you to stay in and bank on risky 20% chances, and unlike OHKO moves, getting it to activate doesnt automatically knock out a pokemon or win games.
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at the same time theres literally nothing you can do if you get haxed
delibird saw this game live but i think this is the unluckiest game ive ever had vs quick claw lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898585219

the team sucks i agree but like if you get unlucky theres no counterplay to it. almost like you are playing vs a 6 fissure team :D
i want quick claw gone its cheese and uncompetitive why is it still here when powder is banned .-.
 
tommytt22 said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898655178

Here's a game i just played against the "infamous" quick claw team. bro had a high 1700s rating and dual screens, still got demolished because using quick claw meant his sets sucked. no guts on ursaluna, no sucker punch on gambit, no leftovers on iron hands, all of which come into play.

Let me reiterate this item is cool and goofy but completely useless on switches, when using setup moves, or if youre in different priority brackets. In a fast paced setup metagame, this is over 50% of turns. For these teams to work they require you to stay in and bank on risky 20% chances, and unlike OHKO moves, getting it to activate doesnt automatically knock out a pokemon or win games.
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Whilst I agree that QC is a crap strat and his sets sucked he also played this really badly, letting Grim get knocked turn one is a big mistake as it severely nerfs his screens and then he failed to get both screens up so you were more free to switch around without pressure. He also allowed his Gambit to be sacked way too soon.
 
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MrE said:
Whilst I agree that QC is a crap strat and his sets sucked he also played this really badly, letting Grim get knocked turn one severely nerfs his screens and then he failed to get both screens up so you were more free to switch around without pressure. He also allowed his Gambit to be sacked way too soon.
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If they played badly and it affected their ability to win, then is QC really that uncompetitive? The game clearly came down to skill if they didn't get carried by the thing people want banned.
 
Exotic64 said:
at the same time theres literally nothing you can do if you get haxed
delibird saw this game live but i think this is the unluckiest game ive ever had vs quick claw lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898585219

the team sucks i agree but like if you get unlucky theres no counterplay to it. almost like you are playing vs a 6 fissure team :D
i want quick claw gone its cheese and uncompetitive why is it still here when powder is banned .-.
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Seems like hitting yours moves was the bigger problem :)
Quick claw only really mattered on the volcanion kill on cres another crit would have done the same thing
 
Exotic64 said:
at the same time theres literally nothing you can do if you get haxed
delibird saw this game live but i think this is the unluckiest game ive ever had vs quick claw lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898585219

the team sucks i agree but like if you get unlucky theres no counterplay to it. almost like you are playing vs a 6 fissure team :D
i want quick claw gone its cheese and uncompetitive why is it still here when powder is banned .-.
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Why on earth did you stay in with Heatran on Luna? That plus your magma storm misses is a bigger contributor to you losing the game than QC hax, you ended up losing half of your team due to that mistake instead of just switching and getting chip/ko.
 
MrE said:
Why on earth did you stay in with Heatran on Luna? That plus your magma storm misses is a bigger contributor to you losing the game than QC hax, you ended up losing half of your team due to that mistake instead of just switching and getting chip/ko.
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who else do i go into
heatran is useless may as well get good chip
 
tommytt22 said:
i didnt mean evasion moves, just the abilities like snow cloak and sand veil. Evasion moves can stay in purgatory
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If you add evasion you are just giving a mouse a cookie, as much as I want snow coat unbanned to make my dream hail team, that’s just a step too far by giving your mons a chance to be untouchable. Sure chance is chance, but the chance of going first is different that a chance not being hit. These abilities are too close to bright powder and if that’s banned you have to ban them too.
 
Exotic64 said:
at the same time theres literally nothing you can do if you get haxed
delibird saw this game live but i think this is the unluckiest game ive ever had vs quick claw lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898585219

the team sucks i agree but like if you get unlucky theres no counterplay to it. almost like you are playing vs a 6 fissure team :D
i want quick claw gone its cheese and uncompetitive why is it still here when powder is banned .-.
Click to expand...

Yeah idc if quick claw is good tbh, I don’t like the idea of some cheesy item being able to instantly win a game if you get enough dice rolls lol. I get it isn’t as powerful of a dice roll as say, ohko moves, but it’s still dumb and uncompetitive

ALSO I’d just like to say that it’s pretty easy to assume that most of the players that resort to such inconsistent cheese are usually going to be worse players so it’s kind of hard to find replays of good players using it, because they don’t need to/want to risk relying on luck to win. BUT if you rely on it and get the rolls you can easily win by misplaying on purpose and hoping the dice favors you
 
I think the main issue about Quick Claw is that it's an item that can completely invalidate offensive counterplay 20% of the time.
Like in a situation where I see an Ursaluna clicking SD and I have a free switch to my Choice Specs Walkign Wake, I should be able to reasonably expect that My WW should counter this Ursaluna by OHkoing it.

One of the problems with Quick Claw, is that there's no way to scout for it. It's not like a pokemon having a choice scarf, which you could reasonably determine by switching out and seeing that they stayed in. Quick Claw is completely up to chance, and is an item that can ultimately give wins to the worse player, since there is no reliable offensive counterplay to Quick Claw.
 
Ehmcee said:
I think the main issue about Quick Claw is that it's an item that can completely invalidate offensive counterplay 20% of the time.
Like in a situation where I see an Ursaluna clicking SD and I have a free switch to my Choice Specs Walkign Wake, I should be able to reasonably expect that My WW should counter this Ursaluna by OHkoing it.
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Somewhat nitpicking, but unless he tera normals in which case you no longer consistently ohko (12.5% chance to okho at best before hazards). Quick Claw isn't even the biggest factor here about why isn't remotely applicable.

Ehmcee said:
One of the problems with Quick Claw, is that there's no way to scout for it. It's not like a pokemon having a choice scarf, which you could reasonably determine by switching out and seeing that they stayed in. Quick Claw is completely up to chance, and is an item that can ultimately give wins to the worse player, since there is no reliable offensive counterplay to Quick Claw.
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A) it is completely scoutable. Hazards pretty much tells you in 1 attack if it's QC or not. If it switches in and takes hazard damage, doesn't get leftovers recovery, doesn't take life orb recoil, and doesn't self-burn in ursa's case, pretty easy read on the QC. Most people aren't out here rocking the choice glowbro or ursa, there aren't too many options left. That's not even counting team reads, if you see 2-4 fat slow and heavy mons with no trick room setter, odds are there are a couple QCs floating around. There aren't too many geniune QC abusers and most of them don't generally go on teams together without QC involved. A team with any combo of enamorous-therian/glowbro/ursa without a TR setter is a huge red flag.

B) there is plenty of offensive counterplay to it. Just yoloing in with an ohko'ing move works 80% of the time to start with (and this is substantially better than trying to hurricane/focus miss anything which people have been doing for generations). Priority works too. Any mon that can ohko without getting ohko'd back works. Chip damage with fat mons works.

C) the worst player frequently wins in this game. Welcome to a game with excessive amount of RNG layers. If we started removing things on the basis of it lets the worse player win, we'd have a ban list a mile long, including every move with a % chance to status, any move with less than 100% accuracy, static and other similar abilities, critical hit chance, a laundry list of set up mons.
 
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Ehmcee said:
I think the main issue about Quick Claw is that it's an item that can completely invalidate offensive counterplay 20% of the time.
Like in a situation where I see an Ursaluna clicking SD and I have a free switch to my Choice Specs Walkign Wake, I should be able to reasonably expect that My WW should counter this Ursaluna by OHkoing it.

One of the problems with Quick Claw, is that there's no way to scout for it. It's not like a pokemon having a choice scarf, which you could reasonably determine by switching out and seeing that they stayed in. Quick Claw is completely up to chance, and is an item that can ultimately give wins to the worse player, since there is no reliable offensive counterplay to Quick Claw.
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You make a fair point about how Claw can not be scouted for, but it can be inferred. Take the example you gave, Ursa has to Swords Dance before in can start OHKO everything that exists. But once you see the SD it is reasonably assumed that it is not scarfed, so it is either Flame Orb Guts, or it is claw. If the Ursa doesn't get burned then you know that the worse case scenario is it having a quick claw.

One can make the argument that the issue isn't scouting the claw, but that once the ursa sets up it can cleanly sweep with the highrolly 0.0064% to wipe out the entire team. I think this presents an opportunity for the meta to shift. If this starts becoming more of a growing problem then teams will start switching from Hard Offense teams to bulkier balance teams.

The reason why I love Quick Claw is because you aren't immediately aware of the item, it has to be inferred by the puzzle pieces that the opponent shows. For example if opponent has a lot of slow mons with no trick room setter, you can safely assume that these mons have items that either bulk them up, or increase their speeds. This inference is something that everyone does, it's just one step further from the Choice Items or Assault Vest.

Along this reasoning is why I believe that Tera should not be banned. An example of this is if I have a King Gambit that sets up an Swords Dance and the opponent switches into a Great Tusk, I can tera Ghost to avoid the Close Combat and can either set up another dance or start clicking Kowtow Kleave. (However I know that this is a much bigger issue because there are 18 different types a mon can tera but you should still have an idea of what is the most ideal tera for a mon but whatever)

This idea of team building is vital to the game to keep it adaptive and fresh. Too many Valiants running around? Tera Steel your fairy weak Sweeper. Your Psychic types are losing to too many dark moves? Run a Colbur berry to surprise them. Ground moves are spammable against your team? Add a flying type to your team. A slow mon can't two hit KO a check? Run Quick Claw to hopefully outspeed it. Are you scared of a particular phyiscal sweeper, run Will-o-wisp. Need speed control? Trick Room or Thunder Wave. These decisions are all put together in team building to help your mons win a match up against what the creator generalizes the meta to be. If there is a glaring weakness to your strategy then you patch that weakness with Tera, item or moves. I want to make a guess that people only started using quick claw because it was a tool that people found to counter the HO teams that have been becoming more popular with Iron Valiant and Enamorous (wasn't the 'abuse' of quick claw showcased in a tournament I don't know) Sure this may be an extreme simplification of how pokemon works, but its what it is at the core

Now for the inevitable comparison to other hax items. Kings Rock is easily abused, so easily abused that it takes no thought to compare it to Skill Link mons or Multi-hit Population bombs. This is different because the 11% flinch chance can easily be increased to 50% a turn by the skill link mons leaving the opponent's turn down to a coin flip. Evasion and Bright Powder are the closest comparison for why it should be banned. Both take initiative out of players and leave the game up to chance. But what's the difference? Bright Powder reduces the opponents moves accuracy, and this is inherently uncompetitive to pokemon, because if you run a 100% accurate earthquake, it should be able to hit 100% of the time instead of the lowered 90% by Bright Powder. However quickclaw changes speed, and changing speeds is already been proven to be allowed by this community (Dragon Dance, Trick Room, Paralysis, etc) Claw is only considered broken because it is an inconsistent way to move first within a priority bracket, however priority moves can still move before a quick claw attacker.

Finally, I want to address an issue that some people don't understand is a big deal with quick claw. IT TAKES THE ITEM SLOT. This is a huge deal that I think people overlook, There are much better items that bulker mons should run if they want to survive, for example they can run leftovers to help live 2 hits, it can run AV to patch up its SpD stat, Or if it wants to hit like a truck it runs band or specs. It could even be guaranteed to be a faster mon if it runs a scarf. This cost makes along side the 80% of do nothing makes the item incredibly worthless. But just like how Choice items lock you into a move as its downsides, that 80% downside has the huge 20% upside of going first.

So this comes down to my finally question, what's hax'd about claw, is it the randomness? If it is the randomness what should the accepted level of randomness be? Should the council ban Stone Edge because it increases my Critical Hit Ratio? Should they ban trick because then the opponent doesn't get to use their specific item? Should they ban Volcanion because Steam Eruption has a higher burn chance? Should Flame Body and Static be removed because what if I want to run all physical attackers and I have a chance to be statused? Should Dire Claw be banned because it's too random? This is the issue I have with those that don't like the idea of Quick Claw, if randomness is uncompetitive then why is everyone playing a different team, with different moves. If we wanted a true test of skill we should create a new ladder where the only team allowed is pre-determined by the council as the best 6 pokemon, with the best stats, with the best moves. This way we can see who can outwit the other with the same team.

TL,DR Quick Claw is an acceptable level of randomness that is in an inherently random game. Quick Claw is being used as a way to adapt to a changing Post-HOME meta game as a way to check/threaten Hard Offense Team that want to outspeed and outdamage the opponent (As quick claw helps you do)
 
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While we wait, does anyone want to tear apart my team
Sumo-Cuck (Samurott-Hisui) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Aqua Cutter
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

Ur Mom (Ursaluna) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Facade
- Headlong Rush
- Crunch
- Close Combat

BP (Not Oil) (Hatterene) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 116 Def / 136 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Nuzzle
- Mystical Fire
- Trick Room
- Healing Wish

Para me u wont (Garganacl) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Salt Cure
- Recover
- Protect
- Body Press

Chubblet (Slowking-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 184 SpA / 72 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Future Sight
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

Sir Fletch (Corviknight) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Iron Head
- Body Press

Cool and thank you
 
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