Pre-Home, I may have agreed, but post-home.... nah man. Pretty much all the new mons like Zapdos, Lando-T, Enam, Lilligant-H, Slowking-G etc. all get eaten alive by it. Even Urshifu-RS and Samurott-H weren't safe because of Sacred Sword / Psychic Fangs + that broken speed tier and high power priority. Doesn't help that checks like Dondozo got worse post HOME imo. Pre-Home, Tera Dark was a massive boon, but Post-Home, Chien-Pao didn't even need to Tera to get free turns vs key metagame staples like Slowking-G, Zapdos, Ursaluna, etc. It naturally got them due to its high power and speed. I am certain that Chien-Pao would be broken regardless of Tera in the Home metagame.I would argue Chien-Pao would be a good canidate for dropping when tera is gone, primarily because a lot of what pushed it over the edge is dark stab crunch just nuking anything that would even call itself a check.
Chien-pao survived the first suspect test, and was later banned soI think it does have a chance to survive in a no-tera meta especially given that it can't defensive tera itself from revenge killers like breloom and scizor. Not a large chance to drop, but a chance. EDIT: I stand corrected, for some reason I thought it had 2 test happen for it.
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/moves/rapid-spin/
Options for a team that isn't specifically built around it: Great Tusk, Iron Treads, and that's it. Quaquval is probably playable if you just want to toss it in, and Torkoal is usable but even if you run Rapid Spin, it's a "might as well" rather than something you're bringing it for.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/moves/defog/
Options for a team that isn't specifically built around it: Corviknight, Talonflame. A couple others are playable, but like Torkoal, they're mons that have Defog rather than mons you bring for Defog.
You can toss in Mortal Spin on Glimmora or Tidy Up on Maushold (and the fact that I can cite Maushold as one of the better hazard removal options is proof that it's lacking), but again, those are mons that have hazard removal, rather than ones you bring for the removal.
That's why Great Tusk is everywhere. It really is that simple.
I'm the number one fan of Espathra and I can guarantee you Tera Blast is not what broke it. I ran Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam and someone as useless and unknowledgeable as me go to like 1400.
I'll take this chance to leave my opinion on the whole thing although I understand it's not very relevant as I really live perpetually in low ladder.
I really can't speak as for what is the most competitive outcome in my opinion, as what I find myself enjoying in Smogon Singles widely differs from the "capacitated playerbase" or however it's called.
I can talk about what's fun to me, and having joined regularly in Gen 8 I can say that Gen is reaally stale in comparison to others. I think that Tera gives Gen 9 its own flavour, and that to ban it would be a grave mistake, as we would end up in Gen 8 Part 2.
I also wholeheartedly think that no action on Tera is not an option. However, I don't know what that action should be. As many have pointed out, Tera Preview increases matchup fishing and creates more coin tosses. STAB Tera sounds fine on paper but mons like IVal, Gambit, Moon, Luna... stay broken thru that STAB Tera. Banning TB seems in my opinion a VERY non-impactful measure that only helps bring Volc back to OU and Eleki to PUBL or something.
As such, my opinion is that this vote should be a ranked vote, as in we get five options and rank them one to five in order of preference. As others have said, I think it should look like:
a) DNB
b) Ban Tera Blast
c) STAB Tera
d) Tera Preview
e) Ban completely
Maybe also there's the option to combine those. Tera Preview + No TB + STAB Tera is something reasonable.
However, the whole point I wanna make is to please take more things into consideration than the competitiveness of it. Tour players would enjoy themselves without Tera, but I believe the interest in the current Gen would decrease without it. I personally think that best option is Tera Preview for all mons you select in the teambuilder to have the option to Tera, i.e. nobody wants to Tera something like Azu (havent kept up with the meta so idk fr) so maybe you don't give it the option and at Team Preview you see that Azu will for sure not Tera that match. And Idk, maybe also mons that Tera can't hold item or something like that. Or mons that Tera can't boost stats. Idk guys. You do you but please be considerate of us who are here for fun.
STAB only Tera will never be a thing, please stop suggesting it
STAB only tera genuinely is a decent option I wish would be explored a bit more.
Not only does it fix the variance of what each mon can use, it solves the issues some of the current banned-due-to-tera roster have in tera blast and their ability to matchup fix, STAB only tera removes the matchup fish entirely but still preserves some skill expression in when you tera.
That would be a compromise I'd be happy with from a pro-ban stance, as not only is the mechanic perserved, but it does fix all the complaints besides chien-pao dark STAB crunch, but there's so few pokemon where tera-STAB was problematic on them the ban pool is much smaller compared to dragonite flipping its typing to normal and STAB extremespeeding the tier, or espathra tera fairy and blowing holes through would be counters as psychic would still maintain the same counters even if it gives stored power more... power.
IMO
1: STAB tera
2: Ban entirely
3: Unrestricted
4: Both tera blast and tera preview last on the list cause they do not fix anything, at that point don't even bother butchering lower tiers or touching tera at all if these are what the test results in.
Not only does it fix the variance of what each mon can use, it solves the issues some of the current banned-due-to-tera roster have in tera blast and their ability to matchup fix, STAB only tera removes the matchup fish entirely but still preserves some skill expression in when you tera.
That would be a compromise I'd be happy with from a pro-ban stance, as not only is the mechanic perserved, but it does fix all the complaints besides chien-pao dark STAB crunch, but there's so few pokemon where tera-STAB was problematic on them the ban pool is much smaller compared to dragonite flipping its typing to normal and STAB extremespeeding the tier, or espathra tera fairy and blowing holes through would be counters as psychic would still maintain the same counters even if it gives stored power more... power.
IMO
1: STAB tera
2: Ban entirely
3: Unrestricted
4: Both tera blast and tera preview last on the list cause they do not fix anything, at that point don't even bother butchering lower tiers or touching tera at all if these are what the test results in.
STAB only tera removes nearly all defensive uses of Terastalization, and makes it literally just adaptability on everything.
Tera should be banned totally. Restricting tera with a clause would feel like rse with team preview or rby without the bugs.
Do a complex ban on tera on a pokemon (like tera on volcarona) or a type (only tera ground on volcarona, but you are allowed to use tera water) would create an incredible amount of quickbans, suspects.
Banning tera blast as a move would mean nothing. Pokemon like regieleki would lose the coverage (ice in this case) but still there will be the defensive, unpredictable side of tera which for me, is by far the stronger side. In early s/v volca was already half broken when suddenly, is typing change to grass for resisting eq or hpump.
Is too strong as a mechanic, there is no reason to not use it in a game. Think about how much protosynthesis and quark drive, 2 new mechanics are underpowered if compared to tera. I can totally build a team without any pokemon with these 2 abilities.
If a second suspect would take place, for me the only option should be
ban tera
do not ban tera
In a desperate scenario, after a suspect where tera is not restricted, I prefer to not ban tera at all (and remain in this messy metagame) and try to fix it rather than go in a "new" metagame with tera preview or limited tera and start again from zero to suspect pokemons and question if volc or regi are now weakened enought to come back in OU.
Do a complex ban on tera on a pokemon (like tera on volcarona) or a type (only tera ground on volcarona, but you are allowed to use tera water) would create an incredible amount of quickbans, suspects.
Banning tera blast as a move would mean nothing. Pokemon like regieleki would lose the coverage (ice in this case) but still there will be the defensive, unpredictable side of tera which for me, is by far the stronger side. In early s/v volca was already half broken when suddenly, is typing change to grass for resisting eq or hpump.
Is too strong as a mechanic, there is no reason to not use it in a game. Think about how much protosynthesis and quark drive, 2 new mechanics are underpowered if compared to tera. I can totally build a team without any pokemon with these 2 abilities.
If a second suspect would take place, for me the only option should be
ban tera
do not ban tera
In a desperate scenario, after a suspect where tera is not restricted, I prefer to not ban tera at all (and remain in this messy metagame) and try to fix it rather than go in a "new" metagame with tera preview or limited tera and start again from zero to suspect pokemons and question if volc or regi are now weakened enought to come back in OU.
Not really cause you also remove any secondary typing a user might have.
For example; you can tera dragon on dragapult to remove its weakness to sucker punch, or tera ground usaluna to remove its fighting weakness. Kingambit you can tera dark for more stab or to be less easily one shot by fire moves. The difference now is you always know which tera types that mon can use without removing the ability to tera any 6 of them at any time. Flipping the type chart vs. getting extra power and recognizing which pokemon would benefit most from it or which pokemon to mono type based on your team vs. their is actual skill expression.
There is still tera doing what it does best, but not to the fuck huge degree of just any typing, a more controlled version of Tera would be a good compromise I don't believe anything particularly is broken by especially if they only have 1 or 2 types of teras they can viably use (garg, cinderace, and zama are the only mono types in the tier).
Yup it would make the tier astronomically worse and is worse than any other option, be it full ban or no action or the good restrictions (Tera blast ban and maybe preview)
side note I have seen this so called "skill ceiling" and "rewards knowledge of the metagame" argument a few times in these 2 threads, and I have yet to hear an explanation as to how having to keep track of what Tera types are popular each week or lose to the new tech makes the competitive metagame better
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my cynical side says it's because there's no actual explanation and people making this argument are usually extremely high-level players who want to keep their spots at the top, and making the meta more accessible would threaten that.
my idealistic side says that my cynical side is full of shit, and that putting extra research into metagame trends is a thing that should be rewarded, so the people making this argument probably just see it from that side and don't realize that the current state of things isn't just rewarding doing extra research, it's actively punishing people who don't keep abreast of every little trend the meta has to offer.
It makes it more competitive, because more competitive is better, and actually because knowing whats meta is in itself a really useful skill outside of Tera, as well as inside it. Knowing what items are ran on what, how to tell a set by the moves, etc etc it takes skill, and it takes a forward thinking mind.
As for some other thoughts, Tera is fine because at the end of the day, you only have one usage of it and if you time it wrong or flub the type, its on you. You are also able to outplay your opponent by nabbing the type they didn't expect, didn't plan for even if they expected it. It brings depth to the meta beyond Valiant Sweeps or Dodonzo Walls, and lets you defend against or break through those pesky
There is a hitherto untold variety to tera, a skill ceiling unbound by mere leftover spam and life orbs galore. Once its gone, we're left with SS+, where unaware teams can haze and sub all the time, instead of them being shattered by the unexpected Morkal-inspired mon of the week. I'd say its more balanced now than it would be if Tera was banned.
Also its fun but thats not important.
You don't have to keep up with "every little trend", either. Unless it's a major metagame shift (in which case, either information will be plentiful or everyone gets got), most Tera tech isn't really any different than already existing item and/or move tech:
- "Since when do people run Rock Tomb on this thing?"
- "Since when do people run Life Orb on this thing?"
- "Since when do people use Tera Poison on this thing?"
Depending on the meta, some of those are more likely than others to change, but as far as their effect on gameplay? All three of those statements are more or less equal. Currently, there's no way to tell any of those things on team preview, and all 3 are capable of turning a sure-thing kill into an unexpected defeat.
Really, the biggest thing about Tera is that it keeps the meta from stagnating. The ability to iterate in smaller ways on your team, to improve your win rate against the field, gives the entire tier a quality more akin to something like Magic the Gathering. Sure, there's always a chance you get blown out by someone else's innovation, but in exchange, you have much more freedom to create and optimize adeck team against the field!
To a lot of people, myself included, that's a trade-off well worth making.
- "Since when do people run Rock Tomb on this thing?"
- "Since when do people run Life Orb on this thing?"
- "Since when do people use Tera Poison on this thing?"
Depending on the meta, some of those are more likely than others to change, but as far as their effect on gameplay? All three of those statements are more or less equal. Currently, there's no way to tell any of those things on team preview, and all 3 are capable of turning a sure-thing kill into an unexpected defeat.
Really, the biggest thing about Tera is that it keeps the meta from stagnating. The ability to iterate in smaller ways on your team, to improve your win rate against the field, gives the entire tier a quality more akin to something like Magic the Gathering. Sure, there's always a chance you get blown out by someone else's innovation, but in exchange, you have much more freedom to create and optimize a
To a lot of people, myself included, that's a trade-off well worth making.
Respectfully, no. Something like surprise life or or rock tomb is not comparable in impact to surprise tera type. Especially as the former two have major opportunity cost that properly weighs the risk of running them, while the cost of running surprise.tera types isn't nearly as high, if there even was one.
This also has to stop. It's unfounded disingenuous fear mongering with no basis in reality, especially when considering the huge range of new, viable Pokemon this generation on top of the widespread hazards, lack of remover, new moves, abilities and the like. Even if tera didn't exist, this tier would be nothing like SS. Stop pushing this.
You're absolutely correct. The cost to the person building the team is far higher when they're playing with their items or moves, but from your perspective, as the victim? They're nearly identical. Maybe it's a meta trend that you didn't keep up with. Or perhaps you're an aspiring chef's first customer! Either way, what was supposed to happen didn't happen. And now, instead of being up a mon, you're down one! Rough break, huh?
Of course, it's not quite a fair comparison. After all, a Life Orb or Band set on a mon that's supposed to be running HDB only affects that one mon, right? But if our esteemed chef wants to run their Tera Bug Roaring Moon into a Close Combat from Valiant? That's it for tera for the rest of the match. Maybe it will work out. Maybe it won't. But there is definitely an opportunity cost to popping Tera in weird and/or bad ways -- especially if you aren't sure if it's good yet.
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i'm pro-tera, and i believe that the meta is better with tera than without (although we'll probably never know for sure, given the unlikelihood of a full ban and administrative resistance to creating a separate no-tera test ladder), but i keep seeing this take and i'm baffled by how people continue buying into it when it's so utterly fucking wrong. let me break it down for you and everyone else how this meta is radically different from ss even without tera.
- recovery pp nerfed
- fewer toxic users
- fewer knock off users
- literally zero scald users
- severely limited hazard removal
- 41 new viable pokemon introduced (source: ou vr)
- dozens of new viable pokemon removed, including extremely influential ones like melmetal, clefable, ferrothorn, kartana, buzzwole, and the tapus
- other influential mons like weavile and blissey were nerfed into irrelevance
- zamazenta-h dropped from ubers
- everything has spikes. like, everything. i wouldn't be surprised if ditto somehow learns it now
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I agree. It's very bad faith to argue that Gen 9 will be anything like Gen 8 considering how Gen 9 has widespread Spikes distribution, limited hazard removal, recovery move nerfs, limited Toxic distribution, next-to-no Scald distribution, Gholdengo, many powerful Hisui mons, the paradox mons, Kingambit and Baxcalibur. There are more offensive options than ever this generation, and the meta would be nothing like Gen 8's.
The metagame is better with tera. CrashinBoomBang explained better than I can here
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ering-discussion-part-ii.3724521/post-9702645
We must work together to construct a better metagame with Tera in the picture.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ering-discussion-part-ii.3724521/post-9702645
We must work together to construct a better metagame with Tera in the picture.
Originally intended to post on this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ion-tiering-discussion-part-ii.3724521/page-2, but I got the perms here before, so might as well.
Hello there.
First, I want to say that, while I'll try to be as 'objective' as my game experience allows me to, I'm a human being, and thus, my opinion and subjectivity will have to be present somewhere in what will follow.
I love Tera. That was fast. I do think that Tera is a very good mecanic, and I agree deeply with what Vert and CBB have already posted here.
TLDR of my opinion for the lazy bummers: Tera should not be restricted, and should stay allowed.
Now, as to 'why' I think this way. Why is Tera Preview a bad option imo? Why is Tera Blast not a real key? Why is Tera healthy in any way?
I'll try to give you all my humble experience on this matter here on out.
History bit (skip if you don't care about context):
First, as you can see on my little profile icon, I'm not top contributor, tournament winner, or social media ambassador. I'm deeply invested in my national community, as well as the leaking one, but then why do I come here to talk about SV OU?
Welp, I've had a very special relation to Tera this whole year. Last summer, when it was announced, I stated right after the first trailer ever showcasing the mecanic that I'd vote DnB if this was ever suspected (Dynamax was still fresh in our minds, so banning a main mechanic was not out of the question).
The game released, I played a lot of SV OU, and finally, this suspect came out. This was the first suspect I've ever had the faith to participate in, in my years of playing this game, simply because I judged the mecanic to be not only unique, but indeed very skillfull. And the Pao suspect confirmed that to me.
During both suspect (I think CBB stated the same somewhere), I've never dropped a single game on a 'Random Tera'. If I lost a game, it was because of me clicking too fast, misjudging the opp, or forgetting an option. Tera was never an 'X' factor to me, perhaps because I played it since the beginning of the Gen.
This mechanic, and Generation as a whole, forced me to step up my in-game, as well as building level, a lot more than the past two Generations ever did. Achieving both requs with my self-built teams allowed me to understand the meta way more, and I think some (not all) people who didn't play enough games in Gen 9 should take notice of how much encountering the metagame face to face, and learning the hard way, in game, how and when to Tera, is a very important skill, and is a big plus to competitive Pokémon.
Which leads us to :
Flashforward to WCup Qualifiers :
I had the chance to be an helper in Belgium's World Cup team, which will, sorry you guys, serve as a great example as to why I think lack of experience in the metagame generates misunderstanding of the mechanic, frustration, and thus, a ban-worthy feeling.
When I arrived on the Discord, I did a few testgames, and... well the level was cataclysmic, even for some very good players. They Tera'd T1 setup sweepers, sac'd important Terad wincond, or checks to some of my Tera threats. It was a one way massacre. I heard very often that 'Tera had to be nerfed, banned, restricted'. But after I spammed the hell out of their test games, and explained to them their Tera errors, they began questionning themselves, thinking more outside of the box, and taking fully their Tera into account.
We started building together, exchanged ideas on Tera users, explored the possibility of multiples types on pivots, spinners, sweepers, rockers (yeah alright basically Great Tusk, you got me), every single Mon we built with, and we could use Tera as a way to 'patch' certain very strong and threatening Pokémon (hum, Volc, hum). We had so much fun, we built tons of teams, and we tested all of them a lot, which led to improved results, and a very good R2 of qualifiers.
HOME meta dropped, we studied, we played a lot, a lot, a lot of games. And look at them go, they went into the main event, and didn't drop again, because they took into consideration, and as a central aspect, the question of using Tera, and of actually practicing it. Like stated by many others, it's not an auto win button, it has no intention of ever being such a thing, and is a very nuanced mechanic. I've seen many players, who's name I won't quote, but who'll recognize themselves, lose tons of matches in important tournaments because they just showed up, grabbed a team, and went into battle without much Gen 9 knowledge to back it up.
I invite those of you who didn't read Mimikyu Stardust 's Doc to give it a read, what's explained there is so simple, but so extremely crucial, just like Tera itself: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWPdrX0vXYaTqV9vpqsbQ1O8eS8TdhVqEwxYaMvN0og/edit. It may seem very 'well yeah, duh', but I assure you rereading it sometimes helps a lot in refocusing on the crucial aspects of a Gen 9 Game. Most importantly tho, everything that's written here should be practiced. This all becomes muscle memory, at some point.
As for the matter of the actual suspect test, I won't repeat what Vert, njnp and CrashinBoomBang said (linked their posts), it would be a waste of time.
Tera raises indeed the skill level of the metagame, and forces you to actually play the Gen, instead of being a penultimate previous Gen player who just loads up a random team in SCL and performs well.
I just think:
- Banning Terastallization outright would be a terrible idea imo. The mechanic brings so much depth into the metagame, and has been such a clever and unique principle that it would be to me like banning items at this point.
- Tera Blast is something I'd rather argue about on a separate thread, although I'd like to point out that... action on Tera Blast should imo be taken before any action on Tera, since banning Tera basically makes this useless, aside from like one Mon which likes to run it as a STAB/Coverage.
- I've only experienced, like many others, Preview in Drafts, but I think as a whole, this doesn't solve a lot of issues, and bring a new bunch to the table. Whereas before, you could force a Tera by scouting it, when the opp was sure to have the surprise advantage, making scouting skills even more useful, it will now realy be a 50/50 at each action. The opponent knows you know their types, and as such, more turns of inactions, or 50/50 Teras could occure. It could also very well create a metagame without the Chestnaughts/Moltres-G of this world. It would be in the best interest to play more standard Mon with more standard Tera types, as the surprise factor would be out of the question. Those are all suppositions anyway, so no need to take them into account, we don't know what would occur.
- What I do think is that preview removes the sole beauty of Tera, being the meta knowledge and tier engagement, while bringing nothing to the table, as a lot of people would still complain if this was applied. I do think an in-between is not a good thing, and that preview is the first step to the downfall that is outright banning Tera.
As for the format/formulation of a potential suspect test, Amaranth already said everything in their post. It's a very important part of tiering, so I'll appreciate if everything is formulated correctly. What this post suggests is also very good, I'd recommend reading it.
Thanks for reading my rumbling, I'll probably post further opinions once the public thread releases. I tried to stay short and keep the main points of my experience into this. I really think Tera brings a endless world of possibilities, and will help make the Generation more unique, competitive and interesting than ever before (above Gen9 that's for sure).
Again, everyone can have their own opinion, mine after building and playing TGs a ton in World Cup is that Tera is fine as is, but please do stay respectful to one another, especially in the public thread
(I'll post a bit more later on, I'll answer some well written post that I thing deserve more attention/credit, from both sides, and will continue reading this thread in search of those
)
Hello there.
First, I want to say that, while I'll try to be as 'objective' as my game experience allows me to, I'm a human being, and thus, my opinion and subjectivity will have to be present somewhere in what will follow.
I love Tera. That was fast. I do think that Tera is a very good mecanic, and I agree deeply with what Vert and CBB have already posted here.
TLDR of my opinion for the lazy bummers: Tera should not be restricted, and should stay allowed.
Now, as to 'why' I think this way. Why is Tera Preview a bad option imo? Why is Tera Blast not a real key? Why is Tera healthy in any way?
I'll try to give you all my humble experience on this matter here on out.
History bit (skip if you don't care about context):
First, as you can see on my little profile icon, I'm not top contributor, tournament winner, or social media ambassador. I'm deeply invested in my national community, as well as the leaking one, but then why do I come here to talk about SV OU?
Welp, I've had a very special relation to Tera this whole year. Last summer, when it was announced, I stated right after the first trailer ever showcasing the mecanic that I'd vote DnB if this was ever suspected (Dynamax was still fresh in our minds, so banning a main mechanic was not out of the question).
The game released, I played a lot of SV OU, and finally, this suspect came out. This was the first suspect I've ever had the faith to participate in, in my years of playing this game, simply because I judged the mecanic to be not only unique, but indeed very skillfull. And the Pao suspect confirmed that to me.
During both suspect (I think CBB stated the same somewhere), I've never dropped a single game on a 'Random Tera'. If I lost a game, it was because of me clicking too fast, misjudging the opp, or forgetting an option. Tera was never an 'X' factor to me, perhaps because I played it since the beginning of the Gen.
This mechanic, and Generation as a whole, forced me to step up my in-game, as well as building level, a lot more than the past two Generations ever did. Achieving both requs with my self-built teams allowed me to understand the meta way more, and I think some (not all) people who didn't play enough games in Gen 9 should take notice of how much encountering the metagame face to face, and learning the hard way, in game, how and when to Tera, is a very important skill, and is a big plus to competitive Pokémon.
Which leads us to :
Flashforward to WCup Qualifiers :
I had the chance to be an helper in Belgium's World Cup team, which will, sorry you guys, serve as a great example as to why I think lack of experience in the metagame generates misunderstanding of the mechanic, frustration, and thus, a ban-worthy feeling.
When I arrived on the Discord, I did a few testgames, and... well the level was cataclysmic, even for some very good players. They Tera'd T1 setup sweepers, sac'd important Terad wincond, or checks to some of my Tera threats. It was a one way massacre. I heard very often that 'Tera had to be nerfed, banned, restricted'. But after I spammed the hell out of their test games, and explained to them their Tera errors, they began questionning themselves, thinking more outside of the box, and taking fully their Tera into account.
We started building together, exchanged ideas on Tera users, explored the possibility of multiples types on pivots, spinners, sweepers, rockers (yeah alright basically Great Tusk, you got me), every single Mon we built with, and we could use Tera as a way to 'patch' certain very strong and threatening Pokémon (hum, Volc, hum). We had so much fun, we built tons of teams, and we tested all of them a lot, which led to improved results, and a very good R2 of qualifiers.
HOME meta dropped, we studied, we played a lot, a lot, a lot of games. And look at them go, they went into the main event, and didn't drop again, because they took into consideration, and as a central aspect, the question of using Tera, and of actually practicing it. Like stated by many others, it's not an auto win button, it has no intention of ever being such a thing, and is a very nuanced mechanic. I've seen many players, who's name I won't quote, but who'll recognize themselves, lose tons of matches in important tournaments because they just showed up, grabbed a team, and went into battle without much Gen 9 knowledge to back it up.
I invite those of you who didn't read Mimikyu Stardust 's Doc to give it a read, what's explained there is so simple, but so extremely crucial, just like Tera itself: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWPdrX0vXYaTqV9vpqsbQ1O8eS8TdhVqEwxYaMvN0og/edit. It may seem very 'well yeah, duh', but I assure you rereading it sometimes helps a lot in refocusing on the crucial aspects of a Gen 9 Game. Most importantly tho, everything that's written here should be practiced. This all becomes muscle memory, at some point.
As for the matter of the actual suspect test, I won't repeat what Vert, njnp and CrashinBoomBang said (linked their posts), it would be a waste of time.
Tera raises indeed the skill level of the metagame, and forces you to actually play the Gen, instead of being a penultimate previous Gen player who just loads up a random team in SCL and performs well.
I just think:
- Banning Terastallization outright would be a terrible idea imo. The mechanic brings so much depth into the metagame, and has been such a clever and unique principle that it would be to me like banning items at this point.
- Tera Blast is something I'd rather argue about on a separate thread, although I'd like to point out that... action on Tera Blast should imo be taken before any action on Tera, since banning Tera basically makes this useless, aside from like one Mon which likes to run it as a STAB/Coverage.
- I've only experienced, like many others, Preview in Drafts, but I think as a whole, this doesn't solve a lot of issues, and bring a new bunch to the table. Whereas before, you could force a Tera by scouting it, when the opp was sure to have the surprise advantage, making scouting skills even more useful, it will now realy be a 50/50 at each action. The opponent knows you know their types, and as such, more turns of inactions, or 50/50 Teras could occure. It could also very well create a metagame without the Chestnaughts/Moltres-G of this world. It would be in the best interest to play more standard Mon with more standard Tera types, as the surprise factor would be out of the question. Those are all suppositions anyway, so no need to take them into account, we don't know what would occur.
- What I do think is that preview removes the sole beauty of Tera, being the meta knowledge and tier engagement, while bringing nothing to the table, as a lot of people would still complain if this was applied. I do think an in-between is not a good thing, and that preview is the first step to the downfall that is outright banning Tera.
As for the format/formulation of a potential suspect test, Amaranth already said everything in their post. It's a very important part of tiering, so I'll appreciate if everything is formulated correctly. What this post suggests is also very good, I'd recommend reading it.
Thanks for reading my rumbling, I'll probably post further opinions once the public thread releases. I tried to stay short and keep the main points of my experience into this. I really think Tera brings a endless world of possibilities, and will help make the Generation more unique, competitive and interesting than ever before (above Gen9 that's for sure).
Again, everyone can have their own opinion, mine after building and playing TGs a ton in World Cup is that Tera is fine as is, but please do stay respectful to one another, especially in the public thread
(I'll post a bit more later on, I'll answer some well written post that I thing deserve more attention/credit, from both sides, and will continue reading this thread in search of those
)
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Roses are red,
violets are blue.
While you read this,
Frosmoth sweeps you.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-703567
World Cup replay, I don't have words for this, so I just appreciate it.
violets are blue.
While you read this,
Frosmoth sweeps you.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-703567
World Cup replay, I don't have words for this, so I just appreciate it.
I don't think I would want to make that tradeoff if that means an unstable meta while the gen is still relevant
Would rather have a stable meta that stagnates, because at least said meta could become fun with time, as gen 8 became really fun towards the end of the gen without any gimmicks even if it was a fatter metagame where balance and bulky offense ruled the roost
My favorite part of Tera is literally using it on a defensive Pokemon to make them better / basically create a new Pokemon, frankenstein monstering new Pokemon
And your proposed solution is to make every Tera a Dragapult Tera Ghost Blast Physical Sweeper? I will never, ever support this, as this solution does not just take out "the skill of Tera" as some have suggested existing, it takes out the part that makes it, in my opinion, the most valuable to teambuilding, especially defensively.
I would rather keep Pokemon like Espathra banned, thanks.
This is extremely funny, but also more of an example of why Matchup Moth got booted from the tier. Even if Michael holds Tera on turn 1, and volt switch goes off, it's still a prediction game! Given what we know, sending in anything other than Iron Moth winds up getting instantly punished by Substitute. Volt Switch getting blanked turned it into even more of a stomp, but, hey.
Turns out even Bad Volcarona is still Volcarona when it gets an advantageous matchup. Here's an particularly silly calc, on that note -- not that Torkoal was likely to even be that invested:
252+ SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Tera Ground Frosmoth in Sun: 59-69 (20.9 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
e:
This meta is a lot of things, but I would definitely not call it unstable. Home shook things up, as a quasi-dlc with a bunch of high-powered mons really ought to, but even with New Toy Syndrome? Half of the most recent top 20, including 6/10 of the top 10, was the same core of mons that were already popular pre-home.
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Is there a time limit for this discussion? I want to know so I can potentially try to make a decent post about why I think tera should go before any action is decided based on the thread.
No action will be decided by this thread. This is merely a place to argue and debate.
Yes I understand that, the action I meant was whether there would actually be another suspect test, and If so what would be the options in terms of action.
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