Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Given that this post is about the content I write; I don't necessarily feel that it's appropriate for me to comment on its entirety and I believe that it's up to the community as a whole to decide how they feel about my posts. But I would like to point out something that I think ant4456 and I can both agree on, at the very least. Ant is absolutely correct about this point I quoted here, and while I adore and appreciate all of the positive feedback and awesome things many people here say about my posts, I'd like to stress that the most consistently fun part of Pokemon is undergoing the fun challenge of experimentation within established meta frameworks. Every single person on this forum has the capability, and ability to develop the memory/skill to make Pokemon they love work - that's what I want to convey with my posts

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites. I like your style. You understand what's important. Go on--the Champion is waiting." - Karen, Elite Four

I write my huge posts for three reasons -

- To bring up niches that I've used during my time playing the meta and to bring attention to long-forgotten or disregarded Pokemon (Karen of the Elite Four is my spirit animal basically)
- To give specialized takes on handling potent threats in the meta (like how I brought up Wigglytuff a while back as a hard Dragapult stop)
- Frankly, because they're fun and I love engaging with Smogon's community

You're all awesome, and I appreciate the discussions that we can all have about niche content in the OU meta and how we choose to elevate each other and help each other more than ever before

As a baseline, I am someone who dislikes this thread solely based on the quality of the content. Your stuff runs contrary to that, which I greatly appreciate; however, some of the content presented can come off as likewhoring more than instructive. I generally agree with the sentiment that there's a lot of Pokemon that have niches in OU and should be explored more. Kriketune is not one of them, and it has never been since it came out 17 years ago. Combine that with the additional text formatting, pictures, and memes that you add to your post, and it's easy to see why people perceive it as showboating. I personally think the backlash would go down significantly if you focused more on Pokemon that exists in like the C or D tier on the OUVR thread. You can use edge case comparisons like "Wigglytuff hard-stops Dragapult", but in the big picture it's not practical to use from a team-building perspective.

I appreciate the effort you take to explore some lesser-used Pokemon in the tier, but at the end of the day, it's still a metagame thread. Kriketune and Wigglytuff might have tools that seem usable in OU on paper, but we have historical precedence regarding their viability not just in OU but lower tiers as well. The posts don't really help further an understanding of a metagame for both seasoned and newer players.
 
Given that this post is about the content I write; I don't necessarily feel that it's appropriate for me to comment on its entirety and I believe that it's up to the community as a whole to decide how they feel about my posts. But I would like to point out something that I think ant4456 and I can both agree on, at the very least. Ant is absolutely correct about this point I quoted here, and while I adore and appreciate all of the positive feedback and awesome things many people here say about my posts, I'd like to stress that the most consistently fun part of Pokemon is undergoing the fun challenge of experimentation within established meta frameworks. Every single person on this forum has the capability, and ability to develop the memory/skill to make Pokemon they love work - that's what I want to convey with my posts

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites. I like your style. You understand what's important. Go on--the Champion is waiting." - Karen, Elite Four

I write my huge posts for three reasons -

- To bring up niches that I've used during my time playing the meta and to bring attention to long-forgotten or disregarded Pokemon (Karen of the Elite Four is my spirit animal basically)
- To give specialized takes on handling potent threats in the meta (like how I brought up Wigglytuff a while back as a hard Dragapult stop)
- Frankly, because they're fun and I love engaging with Smogon's community

You're all awesome, and I appreciate the discussions that we can all have about niche content in the OU meta and how we choose to elevate each other and help each other more than ever before
This brings up a good point. Morkal is known around here for being the "Why X is OU Viable" guy. What started with a Cryogonal (or Manectric) has made him more known for making posts on pokemon such as them as of now than what he did in the past. Of course, no one is restricted solely into any "role" of shitposter, info provider, teambuilder, major critic or reactor (I'm lookin at you 1LDK). But they enjoy what they do. It's why they do it so often. That or it comes up conveniently all the time. Like right now I don't have something to be known for. Hell I'm not even popular. But I do like engaging in all sorts of tiers from 1v1 to OU to VGC. If anything, I'm the guy who pops up everywhere - or the guy who is known there, but leaves for a month every so often (seriously on showdown, you can find me in a ton of rooms). It's something I like doing. Every metagame I'm in is an entirely new adventure.

Then there's the people who don't have a particular mantle. If that's not the case, they are known for being in that community. They may not appear often, but they do exist. There's a ton of people in the OU Forum that would fall under that category - especially the recent or uncommon players. There's a lot of people all over the site that make their home somewhere - by which I mean they make a lot of posts in that forum.

Whatever the case is, I attempt to speak for you all and say I love all of you and the work you do here. I might have joined Pokemon Showdown on April 1st 2022 (forums July 17th that same year), but I am trying to get a sense of different metagames and make an impact around here. That is why I'm on this site - to help people by engaging in talks, battles or anything else. Everyone has a different reason to be on Showdown and they're all equally important to them. That being said, everyone in this forum is active and has a name for themselves here in some way. You guys are noticed. Strive for what you plan to do here for however long you will. All you guys are all appreciated. And if other people don't, I do - and I always will.
 
Maybe it's because I skipped out on SWSH and am thus used to Teleport-less Slowbro, but I think losing Scald hurt way more tbh.

But, yeah its defensive profile isn't nearly as good as it used to be. Most of the current S ranks shit on Bro (especially bad in the case of Kingambit since Bro is a physical tank -- at least Glowking isn't "meant" to take King on), and while it can beat Tusk it doesn't like getting hit by Knock Off.
I would personally disagree. Teleport gave it (& Slowking obviously) a niche over other bulky pivots. Even without Scald it's still a very functional bulky water especially since all the other ones lost Scald too. But now Slowbro's value to offensive teams is greatly diminished after losing Teleport. I don't think it's bad now but any means but it's definitely limited in the types of teams it can fit on now.
 
Let’s be honest

it’s hard to get creative rn,

your creativity is limited due to the massive bottleneck in viable Pokémon’s.

a team needs 4-5 highly viable Pokémon’s just to do well. You can’t really construct unusual teams, like the tail end of last gen.

I still remember UU all-stars teams getting me to top 5 on the OU ladder with 50+ games b2b played.. good luck doing that right now.
 
Let’s be honest

it’s hard to get creative rn,

your creativity is limited due to the massive bottleneck in viable Pokémon’s.

a team needs 4-5 highly viable Pokémon’s just to do well. You can’t really construct unusual teams, like the tail end of last gen.

I still remember UU all-stars teams getting me to top 5 on the OU ladder with 50+ games b2b played.. good luck doing that right now.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-peaked-1-2094-ft-thundurus-therian.3725216/
 
Team has 2 of the S viability Pokémon in valiant and Gambit, cinderace and landorus are also very high viability, and finally there’s the goodra and thunderus.

so you’re agreeing with me :p , that’s 4 high viability picks and 2 creative picks.

Well believe it or not…Teams have always been like this. From Gen 1 to now, a majority of OU teams consisted of mostly or entirely…well, OU staples. That’s what is expected in a competitive game like Pokemon. Obviously you have mons that get used from the lower tiers that have specific niches like Gen 8 Pert, Gen 5 Slowking, or Gen 7 Volcanion, but there is a reason these Pokemon aren’t used often. They have niches that fit on more specifically teams or team styles. Its why you don’t see Hippo as often as Lando, Gliscor, or Chomp in Gen 7.

People are going to build with top Pokemon because they are incredibly splashable and it gives the most consistent results. Arguably, top pokemon give more flexibility in the builder. Standard Defensive Lando alone fills the role of a ground immune, electric immune, rock setter, pivot, knock off abuser, and physical check. That’s six slots that would’ve taken upwards to 2 or even 6 slots to check off most teambuliding necessites. We see the same thing with Tusk. A physical tank with spin that could also setup rocks or be a wincon with BU. Or it can make progress with Knock Off and/or Ice Spinner.
 
Well believe it or not…Teams have always been like this. From Gen 1 to now, a majority of OU teams consisted of mostly or entirely…well, OU staples. That’s what is expected in a competitive game like Pokemon. Obviously you have mons that get used from the lower tiers that have specific niches like Gen 8 Pert, Gen 5 Slowking, or Gen 7 Volcanion, but there is a reason these Pokemon aren’t used often. They have niches that fit on more specifically teams or team styles. Its why you don’t see Hippo as often as Lando, Gliscor, or Chomp in Gen 7.

People are going to build with top Pokemon because they are incredibly splashable and it gives the most consistent results. Arguably, top pokemon give more flexibility in the builder. Standard Defensive Lando alone fills the role of a ground immune, electric immune, rock setter, pivot, knock off abuser, and physical check. That’s six slots that would’ve taken upwards to 2 or even 6 slots to check off most teambuliding necessites. We see the same thing with Tusk. A physical tank with spin that could also setup rocks or be a wincon with BU. Or it can make progress with Knock Off and/or Ice Spinner.
some mfs would never make it in the RBY "4-5 of your team slots are basically instantly locked in as Tauros-Lax-Chansey-Starmie/Egg" teambuilding meta
 
insane thing to say about one of the most popular old gens

anyway no more one liners. I have a question - I feel like Ursaluna hype has fallen off, is mama bear still good?

YES.

It doesn't matter how bad I play, or what my team set up is. Ursa is out, something dies. That's it. Get over it, opponent, wasting 5 minutes of my life while you decide how you're gonna get out of this without sacking a mon isn't cute.

I can use screens, and Trick Room I feel is still valid with this powerhouse. I haven't even played with Bulk Up or SD, why bother? Burn it, call it a day.
 
Let’s be honest

it’s hard to get creative rn,

your creativity is limited due to the massive bottleneck in viable Pokémon’s.

a team needs 4-5 highly viable Pokémon’s just to do well. You can’t really construct unusual teams, like the tail end of last gen.

I still remember UU all-stars teams getting me to top 5 on the OU ladder with 50+ games b2b played.. good luck doing that right now.
Ngl, Gambit feels high key mandatory on every team to beat other Gambit. I think that's the mon that's stopping full UU teams from being all too good (or usable)

Maybe you can sub in Bisharp for Gambit if you wanna use a lower tier pick, but that's not really getting creative & any Gambit check you'll see will have a 10x easier time dealing with Bisharp lmao

I'm curious how good Bisharp has been in a vaccum for the people who have given it a spin.
 
insane thing to say about one of the most popular old gens

anyway no more one liners. I have a question - I feel like Ursaluna hype has fallen off, is mama bear still good?

Still a good mon, just difficult to splash onto teams due to how overly reliant it can be of TR, Screens, and hazard removal.
 
This meta is garbage. Every battle is Tusk Gambit Valiant. Tera 50/50s everywhere. I can’t remember such a “stable” crapshoot of a meta. There is no room for any heat right now.


Yeah I think this exactly what my gripe with gen 9 has been so far. I only started getting into this in gen 8, but if I wanted to use random sh*tmon 37, i could build around it and have something somewhat usable. This gen it feels like active sabotage if I don't include valiant gambit or tusk on my team.

I should probably shape up and try for reqs to try and vote but honestly probably a skill issue on my end, but also I'm not enjoying the meta game enough where I would like to play 30-50 games in time for the decision. I've got one team I'm semi fond of only cuz I managed to squeeze azumarill on it, but none of the other teams I've tried to make or get from the bazaar/sample teams really play in a way I'm enjoying.
 
Yeah I think this exactly what my gripe with gen 9 has been so far. I only started getting into this in gen 8, but if I wanted to use random sh*tmon 37, i could build around it and have something somewhat usable. This gen it feels like active sabotage if I don't include valiant gambit or tusk on my team.

I should probably shape up and try for reqs to try and vote but honestly probably a skill issue on my end, but also I'm not enjoying the meta game enough where I would like to play 30-50 games in time for the decision. I've got one team I'm semi fond of only cuz I managed to squeeze azumarill on it, but none of the other teams I've tried to make or get from the bazaar/sample teams really play in a way I'm enjoying.

I also think the fact that typing feels at least partially irrelevant thanks to tera adds to this. There used to be lots of niche picks in ou just because their typing could let them check x threat but now that’s just not a thing. Now we just pick all the power creep mons with broken ass stats and abilities and tera them into whatever the most broken type is. Gambit wouldn’t be getting suspected if that wasn’t a thing
 
This does not on its own justify further modifications.
Hoping cross forum replying works, but asking this here because og forum is tera but im not saying anything related to tera

Why, given our meta of literally no sleep options, do we still hold onto sleep clause, given its complexity? Honestly thought we just banned sleep at this point.
 
Hoping cross forum replying works, but asking this here because og forum is tera but im not saying anything related to tera

Why, given our meta of literally no sleep options, do we still hold onto sleep clause, given its complexity? Honestly thought we just banned sleep at this point.

(it worked)

Not much reason to unmod the game at this point. Although if it were up to me there would be zero mods in any tier. (im sure the community is glad it is NOT up to me)

Also since I mentioned random effects, would anyone argue to keep Sneasler if it weren't for the game being modified? In a meta accurate to cart would anyone want 1/6 random sleeps that aren't nullified if activated twice, or once if you get a sleep prior? Ever since its release I felt like it would be banned in a non-modded meta and is only kept due to sleep clause mod.
 
Alright so
Solar beam Pult
Hear me out-0 SpA Dragapult Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk in Grassy Terrain: 370-436 (85.2 - 100.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Under sun with a set of ddance/t blast ghost/darts/beam this set coooks
 
Alright so
Solar beam Pult
Hear me out-0 SpA Dragapult Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk in Grassy Terrain: 370-436 (85.2 - 100.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Under sun with a set of ddance/t blast ghost/darts/beam this set coooks
how are you going to get sun and g terrain up at the same time tho
 
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