Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[ianlazerbeem]

Hazard removal though limited still has a plethora of relevant strong mons who can control hazards. Tusk, Corv, Cinderace, Hatterene, Treads off the top of my head. There are more niche mons such as Avalugg, Glimmora, Maushold and Toedscruel who either don't fit on every archetype or are limited on the teams they can be used on. Most people are just bored of using pkm such as Tusk for hazard removal.

It seems you don't understand my statement. Lets say you are a defensive pokemon with a a theoretical item that gives you unaware right, the cost of not having this item is pretty big as you simply do not get set up on or care if you get set up on. I never called unaware a problem, my statement was to say that these mons have pretty much no reason not to run this item which is the case with boots.


Pokemon with boots are not playing the rules of the same hazard game, I don't know how you can misunderstand that concept that I am trying to portray, a team with boots cinderace, zapdos and glowking is not playing by the same rules vs hazards as the same team but without boots.


I am aware that these pkm can run other items, but personally I believe that the cost of not using boots is too high.

I think you either misunderstand or simply don't understand what I am saying, even in SS right now there is a lot of people unhappy with boots and some are calling for a potential suspect on it, I think the same should apply in SV post dlc. I don't want to clog up the thread with me clarifying what I mean so I'm going to try and end this here.

these are the ramblings of a madman who believes they should be able to click ceaseless edge 3x and autowin. Boots "not playing by the rules" get real, you trade your item. "Defensive Pokémon have no reason to run any other item" is a bad argument for both boots and the theoretical "ignore setup" item because it is completely false. Leftovers exist

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

I think you either misunderstand or simply don't understand what I am saying, even in SS right now there is a lot of people unhappy with boots and some are calling for a potential suspect on it

As a player who mainly plays SS OU, said people talk nonstop on this thread and have never/scarcely showed up in any SS OU forum/server/etc that I am in, so make of that what you will.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

As a player who mainly plays SS OU, said people talk nonstop on this thread and have never/scarcely showed up in any SS OU forum/server/etc that I am in, so make of that what you will.

I haven't followed the hazards and boots debate here, nor do I want to get involved with it, but I did want to quickly point out that the potentially suspecting boots in SS OU talk was brought up recently by Ben Gay (who is likely the greatest builder ever, although he became inactive during SS) and other top players like ABR (who, along with SoulWind, is probably the greatest player ever across all generations) also have voiced support of suspecting boots, so it's not like it's some random sentiment being espoused by players who don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

I haven't followed the hazards and boots debate here, nor do I want to get involved with it, but I did want to quickly point out that the potentially suspecting boots in SS OU talk was brought up recently by Ben Gay (who is likely the greatest builder ever, although he became inactive during SS) and other top players like ABR (who, along with SoulWind, is probably the greatest player ever across all generations) also have voiced support of suspecting boots, so it's not like it's some random sentiment being espoused by players who don't know what they're talking about.

Thank you for the post! I certainly do not want to give off the impression that everyone is happy with boots (as you said, some players who are greater than I ever will be are in favour of a suspect), but the same thread has a lot of people who are both good players and still active/interested in the tier have voiced their suspicions over what such a test would actually do. My intention with my previous post was to push back on how the item is nearly universally disliked and I now realise that my wording was subpar - I apologise if people took it as slighting the faction of the SS OU community who are in favour of suspecting the item.

 

[G-Luke]

Yeah, no. Honestly, playing ladder isn't any fun at all, and playing on cart isn't any fun anymore either between all the degenerate sleep spammers and Little Timmies running around with their hacked Ubers teams. I think I'm going to be leaving Pokemon now.

Best of luck to, well, most of y'all in your lives. I'm going to be leaving all related Pokemon spaces now, so that I don't end up making my own mental health worse. It was... an interesting time to come back to playing BDSP and SV.

Come and Pet Mod, brother.

Anyway, do we think the 8th or so Grass Ghost type will be good this time around? If it carries Shell Smash I can see it cracking UU at the bear minimum. Unfortunately it's ability is already ass in singles

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Thank you for the post! I certainly do not want to give off the impression that everyone is happy with boots (as you said, some players who are greater than I ever will be are in favour of a suspect), but the same thread has a lot of people who are both good players and still active/interested in the tier have voiced their suspicions over what such a test would actually do. My intention with my previous post was to push back on how the item is nearly universally disliked and I now realise that my wording was subpar - I apologise if people took it as slighting the faction of the SS OU community who are in favour of suspecting the item.

Yeah, you’re good - I don’t think that you came across poorly or disparaging towards any group of players. You’re correct that many great players fall on both sides of the boots debate (and as a quick aside, I don’t feel like someone needs to be a top player to be informed and have good insight on a matter), which is all I was trying to get at anyway, so we’re in agreement.

 

[Alternator]

I would love to see how different a Gholdengo-less meta would be. It’s not broken individually but I think it represents the single biggest bottleneck to team building and playstyle development of any mon going back several generations. Every single team is prepped for hazard stack and the inability to defog. It’s no joke to say the entire meta orbits this thing in the builder both offensively and defensively. Basically I think its presence just makes the whole meta worse.

Here is a complete list of our potential defoggers:

Altaria - 70/70/80 offensively is abysmal, and it doesn't have enough tools outside defog viably run a defensive set.

Braviary - Too slow and frail

Braviary-H - Too slow and frail, its one (semi-)viable niche cannot fit defog

Corviknight - Already can run defog

Decidueye / Decidueye-H - Too slow, typing limits the potential of bulky sets, theoretical anti-meta option in the future

Drifblim - Has anti-Ursaluna niche, so if Ursaluna ever becomes a top tier threat, it'll do work; nonviable otherwise

Frosmoth - Viable on snow teams, potential option for defogging with Ninetails-A

Hawlucha - Can fit defog, cannot be a team's primary defogger due to team role

Kleavor - Can fit defog, cannot be a team's primary defogger due to team role; also bad in OU

Liligant-H - Has unexplored potential, though it really misses the lost coverage

Lurantis - Too slow and initially weak, nonviable in general and doubly so as a defogger

Noivern - Not quite powerful enough to hack it on OU, but might be Morkoal-able

Oricorio (All) - Too weak and frail

Scizor - Utility sets can run defog

Talonflame - Defensive sets can run defog, though it limits what they can check


That's it, that's the full list. There is not some massive list of potential defoggers that are being kept out of OU by Gholdengo; at most, it limits Corviknight and Scizor, both of whom are at least not free setup thanks to U-Turn. Offensive Gholdengo cannot safely switch into Liligant-H because it has a 75% chance to get 2HKO'd by a +1 Leaf Blade, though defensive sets only have to worry about taking a crit (which, with Leaf Blade's high crit rate, is a real concern). Tera-Ground Frosmoth is an OHKO, and can take a hit to pop an Air Balloon if needed - without needing to tera first unless the Gholdengo is specs, even. Talonflame 2HKOs non-defensive Gholdengo and 3HKOs a full defensive set.

There's also Maushold, who can use Tidy Up in front of Gholdengo and beats non-specs sets with +1 Bite.

The real problem is that most of those defoggers are either too weak to hack it in OU, or their team role doesn't allow them to serve as a primary hazard control role.

 

[Cadsuane]

these are the ramblings of a madman who believes they should be able to click ceaseless edge 3x and autowin. Boots "not playing by the rules" get real, you trade your item. "Defensive Pokémon have no reason to run any other item" is a bad argument for both boots and the theoretical "ignore setup" item because it is completely false. Leftovers exist

I completely agree with you. SS and SV are two very different metagames; one is a slow regenerator pivotfest and the other is dominated by hyperoffense and hazard stack. From a common sense standpoint there is no reason to suspect boots in SV when hazards are stronger than ever. The only reliable and splashable removal right now is limited to Cinderace and Tusk, and even Tusk usually has to click knock off when it would rather click spin.

 

[Negative Charge]

Here is a complete list of our potential defoggers:

Altaria - 70/70/80 offensively is abysmal, and it doesn't have enough tools outside defog viably run a defensive set.

Braviary - Too slow and frail

Braviary-H - Too slow and frail, its one (semi-)viable niche cannot fit defog

Corviknight - Already can run defog

Decidueye / Decidueye-H - Too slow, typing limits the potential of bulky sets, theoretical anti-meta option in the future

Drifblim - Has anti-Ursaluna niche, so if Ursaluna ever becomes a top tier threat, it'll do work; nonviable otherwise

Frosmoth - Viable on snow teams, potential option for defogging with Ninetails-A

Hawlucha - Can fit defog, cannot be a team's primary defogger due to team role

Kleavor - Can fit defog, cannot be a team's primary defogger due to team role; also bad in OU

Liligant-H - Has unexplored potential, though it really misses the lost coverage

Lurantis - Too slow and initially weak, nonviable in general and doubly so as a defogger

Noivern - Not quite powerful enough to hack it on OU, but might be Morkoal-able

Oricorio (All) - Too weak and frail

Scizor - Utility sets can run defog

Talonflame - Defensive sets can run defog, though it limits what they can check


That's it, that's the full list. There is not some massive list of potential defoggers that are being kept out of OU by Gholdengo; at most, it limits Corviknight and Scizor, both of whom are at least not free setup thanks to U-Turn. Offensive Gholdengo cannot safely switch into Liligant-H because it has a 75% chance to get 2HKO'd by a +1 Leaf Blade, though defensive sets only have to worry about taking a crit (which, with Leaf Blade's high crit rate, is a real concern). Tera-Ground Frosmoth is an OHKO, and can take a hit to pop an Air Balloon if needed - without needing to tera first unless the Gholdengo is specs, even. Talonflame 2HKOs non-defensive Gholdengo and 3HKOs a full defensive set.

There's also Maushold, who can use Tidy Up in front of Gholdengo and beats non-specs sets with +1 Bite.

The real problem is that most of those defoggers are either too weak to hack it in OU, or their team role doesn't allow them to serve as a primary hazard control role.

Corv being unable to defog is a gigantic, metagame defining interaction though. It’s arguably more important than any of the quickbans in terms of how much it affects team building and game flow. I’m not advocating that there are other good defoggers, I’m saying that OU is substantially worse because of this specific interaction.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Corv being unable to defog is a gigantic, metagame defining interaction though. It’s arguably more important than any of the quickbans in terms of how much it affects team building and game flow. I’m not advocating that there are other good defoggers, I’m saying that OU is substantially worse because of this specific interaction.

Corv is also the only OU mon on that list. The rest are some unmons, and of those few have an actual niche.
GF knew what they were doing like I said in an earlier post it's clear they think hazards should play a more important role than they did last gen.
They know that very few mons can stop bulky ass, amazing typing Corv from fogging, and Gold is a response to that.
Gold being able to stop Corv defog is a massive reason why hazards are so strong.

 

[Finchinator]

As we pivot towards DLC, there is a likelihood that the council will be putting out a playerbase survey on prospective OU drops from Ubers. The extent to which this occurs is likely to be lesser than with Pokemon HOME, but it is important that we use your feedback to fuel our decision making process rather than acting solely on internal opinions.

This course of action is likely to be accompanied by a generally greater role in community data and feedback. I cannot comment further on specifics yet.

 

[pika pal]

Corv is also the only OU mon on that list. The rest are some unmons, and of those few have an actual niche.
GF knew what they were doing like I said in an earlier post it's clear they think hazards should play a more important role than they did last gen.
They know that very few mons can stop bulky ass, amazing typing Corv from fogging, and Gold is a response to that.
Gold being able to stop Corv defog is a massive reason why hazards are so strong.

I think this is to assume that GF balances around Singles, which is a hard sell to me at the minimum. I am much more inclined to believe Gholdengo was given a big fancy ability and typing because it's the Special 1000th Pokemon cross-promoted with PoGo, and GF didn't consider exactly how strong this was compared to its usual gimmicky signature design.

For the record this is just developer armchair psychologist, because I agree that Corviknight being unable to Defog is the single biggest effect Gholdengo has on Hazard Control Defog side (barring exploration of Mortal Spin Glimmora as weird Heat that it ALSO blocks by typing). It's not like Corv's other traits are irrelevant by any stretch, it's the single most viable Pokemon-with-Defog in OU, but it's arguably the worst Hazard removal option because it literally cannot make Progress against the Stinky Cheese Man (I don't count U-Turning the turn after the switch as Progress under this banner because this can vary turn-to-turn and team-to-team as a benefit)

 

[Pabloaram]

As we pivot towards DLC, there is a likelihood that the council will be putting out a playerbase survey on prospective OU drops from Ubers. The extent to which this occurs is likely to be lesser than with Pokemon HOME, but it is important that we use your feedback to fuel our decision making process rather than acting solely on internal opinions.

This course of action is likely to be accompanied by a generally greater role in community data and feedback. I cannot comment further on specifics yet.

CP is back on bussiness boys and girls!! We are BACK

 

[Finchinator]

CP is back on bussiness boys and girls!! We are BACK

y’all weird

 

[arnimacarni]

CP is back on bussiness boys and girls!! We are BACK

We AGREED in the meeting that that would not be the nickname for Chien-Pao.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

As we pivot towards DLC, there is a likelihood that the council will be putting out a playerbase survey on prospective OU drops from Ubers. The extent to which this occurs is likely to be lesser than with Pokemon HOME, but it is important that we use your feedback to fuel our decision making process rather than acting solely on internal opinions.

This course of action is likely to be accompanied by a generally greater role in community data and feedback. I cannot comment further on specifics yet.

Darkrai (if it returns), Volcarona, and maybe shaymin sky (probably would be too cheap still but it feels reasonable to test this gen due to covert cloak being a thing) will likely be retested if I had to guess.

 

[Pabloaram]

Darkrai (if it returns), Volcarona, and maybe shaymin sky (probably would be too cheap still but it feels reasonable to test this gen due to covert cloak being a thing) will likely be retested if I had to guess.

Skymin also have HDB this time. Maybe is still broken

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Skaymin also have HDB this time. Maybe is still broken

Yeah, as much as I don't think it will stay, shaymin sky feels like its worth a test

 

[Finchinator]

Darkrai (if it returns), Volcarona, and maybe shaymin sky (probably would be too cheap still but it feels reasonable to test this gen due to covert cloak being a thing) will likely be retested if I had to guess.

Skymin can stay Uber forever

 

[awyp]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-round-1-pokemon-suspect-voting.84270/post-3214971

Shaymin-S: 51 Bans, 0 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (100%!!!)

I think it's fair to say that Skymin will not see the light of day in OU, especially with HDB existing as well as teraing out 4x ice weakness when needed. Yes 2 different metas but it's the same mon with more tools.

 

[ant4456]

Who cares about dropping some of these Ubers when +2 SO Kingambit Sucker probably just kills most of them anyways (balanced)

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 325-384 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

yeah
fuckin exactly

shaymin sky could be made OU because it is checked by the 5 billion priority shits we have that all have 140ish base attack GG

(i hope this is obviously ironic but also we have ("debatably") ubers that make checking some other ubers really easy in the tier so!)

 

[658Greninja]

shaymin sky could be made OU because it is checked by the 5 billion priority shits we have that all have 140ish base attack GG

Were you here during BW’s early stages? I don’t think you comprehend how disgusting Air Slash flinches and Seed Flare SpD drops are on a mon with 127 speed and 120 spa with was, especially with Leech Seed. Even in today’s meta, it would still be a massive problem. And that priority you mentioned…

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 124-146 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only priority that can rkill at high health is Bax so uhh yeah. Did I mention its hard as balls to switch into with Air Slash + Seed Flare spd drops in the equation, and if you’re thinking Covert Ghold.

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And I haven’t even mentioned the fact that it can run Boots and Tera makes dealing with it even more unreasonably difficult. Why would you want this?

 

[ant4456]

Were you here during BW’s early stages? I don’t think you comprehend how disgusting Air Slash flinches and Seed Flare SpD drops are on a mon with 127 speed and 120 spa with was, especially with Leech Seed. Even in today’s meta, it would still be a massive problem. And that priority you mentioned…

sorry cant hear you sucker punch killing shaymin sky in the background with my 3 other mons with stacked priority, and several that outspeed with a shit ton of attack

sorry cant hear you in OUBL land, the tier where half of teams are stacking several broken mons and where a good chunk of these Ubers could be dropped and the tier would not seriously fundamentally change in any way, love HO meta!

 

[ianlazerbeem]

As we pivot towards DLC, there is a likelihood that the council will be putting out a playerbase survey on prospective OU drops from Ubers. The extent to which this occurs is likely to be lesser than with Pokemon HOME, but it is important that we use your feedback to fuel our decision making process rather than acting solely on internal opinions.

This course of action is likely to be accompanied by a generally greater role in community data and feedback. I cannot comment further on specifics yet.

Free Magearna

Darkrai (if it returns), Volcarona, and maybe shaymin sky (probably would be too cheap still but it feels reasonable to test this gen due to covert cloak being a thing) will likely be retested if I had to guess.

ive heard a lot of talk about Darkrai and I'm pretty skeptical of it being reasonable in OU. 125 base speed lets it outrun nearly the entire meta save for Pult and Zama before any opposing boosts, and its only relevant priority weakness is Breloom's Mach Punch, 90 def being nothing to sneeze at. Give it Choice Specs and Fighting Tera Blast and you've got an absurd hard hitting fast breaker with perfect STAB coverage. Counterplay seems limited to Enamorus and Booster Valiant, and Banded Zamazenta. This isn't even factoring in Hypnosis/NP/Dark Pulse/TB Fighting with Life Orb or, with serviceable 70/90/90 bulk, god forbid, Leftovers. I don't think it belongs in the tier

Edit:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fighting Darkrai Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 362-428 (125.2 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[G-Luke]

sorry cant hear you sucker punch killing shaymin sky in the background with my 3 other mons with stacked priority, and several that outspeed with a shit ton of attack

sorry cant hear you in OUBL land, the tier where half of teams are stacking several broken mons and where a good chunk of these Ubers could be dropped and the tier would not seriously fundamentally change in any way, love HO meta!

I hate how the the tier currently is but you don't have to spew nonsense to make this point.

Nothing in Ubers now or later is a balanced part of our OU diet unless a fundamental change happens to either said Uber or our dietary restriction (this analogue went sideways).