Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Napoli Burns said:
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I think players prefer more to see the current issues solved (bax, very hard hazard control, maybe tera?) rather than unban new toys with the dlc.

Some pokemons are still broken asf, chien pao showed how strong it was even with both zama ou and dondo. magearna lol; volcarona will really add something other than skyrocket the usage of moltres even more, until volc will run tera rock?
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There are no “current issues” in an entirely new metagame that is not the current one — the current metagame is just a sitting duck. We don’t know the full extent of what is coming and we have no time to fit a suspect in now.

I am not committing to unbanning anything, but it is quite literally my job to do the due diligence. Personally, I really hope Chien Pao or Magearna remain Uber this time.
 
ant4456 said:
skip a survey, and just unban volc

i dont even like volc but if you are really certain on just listening to the surveys, end this monkey paw and just give the probably least broken one that people also want, volcarona
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My ideal drop would be Volcarona. Nothing else. But part of my job is to do our due diligence. It would be unfair not to.
ant4456 said:
cant wait for a youtuber to be like "it'd be funny to unban Palafin also its checked by Slowbro ig" and we delay real tiering of the new DLC even further
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Idk if this is a joke or not, but stuff like this are why we take qualified numbers seriously — far more than general — and surveys aren’t binding so much as suggestive.
 
JunkoAJ said:
What's the timeline on surveys/suspects inbetween DLC 1 and 2?
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I’m not sure how I’m supposed to answer this question when we have no clue when DLC2 is, we don’t even know the full extent of what we are getting with DLC1, and we don’t know at all how the DLC1 metagame will pan out. This is impossible to answer without quite literally being able to see into the future.
 
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Finchinator said:
My ideal drop would be Volcarona. Nothing else. But part of my job is to do our due diligence. It would be unfair not to.

Idk if this is a joke or not, but stuff like this are why we take qualified numbers seriously — far more than general — and surveys aren’t binding so much as suggestive.
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If we get Darkrai back do you think we test it?
 
ant4456 said:
I'm going to use this lull between HOME and DLC to bring up something once again:

Sleep Clause should be removed in every tier where Sleep Clause is not possible to be replicated on cart, that is intending to replicate cart.

ie. Gen 1 OU we've just decided as a community, ain't fuckin trying. Either with Freeze Mod, the issue of Tradebacks, and not being Stadium for Sleep Clause.

Tiers like Petmods, CAP, most Other Metagames should continue to do whatever they please, but something like Hackmons which also follows cart rules (even if simutaneously breaking them) should also get rid of Sleep Clause.

Every main OU besides Gen 1 should get rid of Sleep Clause, and all tiers below as well, especially SV.

Cartridge over you. I do not give a FUCK what you find more fun, cartridge mechanics over you. Sleep Clause is simply fake shit we adopted from a spinoff that has not been relevant in literal decades. It should never have been used as serious policy.

If this makes sleep broken? Ban it. Not only has Gen 5 OU done this successfully (rare Gen 5 OU W) creating precedent, but there really should not be an argument. If you have to make a mechanic that is not replicatable on cart in order to balance a thing, you just throw it out.

"We don't play on cart anyways" so we should just balance the game however we want, then? Where do we stop the line? Literally just Sleep Clause? Then why even have Sleep Clause, if only removing Sleep Clause immediately puts it in line with the most objective metric for "valid tiering decisions": Can it be done on cart?

Yes I am aware tiering policy makes an exception for Sleep Clause. That's dumb. Imagine reading a rulebook and it says "You can tag any player, except James because if we ban him he won't invite us to his house, and he has a Gamecube so..."

"As a vegan you are not permitted to eat any meat, except for if the meat is on a taco specifically."

that's so silly lmfao

How is Sleep this sacred that we need a several decade long debate to ban it? This is like such an obvious slam dunk. Uncompetitive mechanic, no one likes it (except Gen 1 which is an exception), we have to literally break our own rules in order to make it possible, its only precedent is because we made the initial mistake in the first place, etc.

I hope to be smoking on that Sleep Clause pack within a year, please Big Stall make my wish come true.
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I think you're a bit confused. OMs, most Pet Mods, etc. use Sleep Moves Clause, which simply blanket bans status moves that inflict sleep (stuff like Spore). There are still ways to bypass it (Effect Spore, Wicked Torque, Relic Song), but these aren't usually problematic enough to be banworthy themselves, and axing these would potentially lead to issues like Meloetta-P being inaccessible / things with only Effect Spore being unusable due to no legal abilities and the like. OU could potentially switch to this, since it's completely cartridge accurate (in the same way OHKO clause is), but Finch has already stated that Sleep Clause won't be changing.

Also, what about hackmons isn't cartridge accurate? What rules are we breaking? The entire discussion about freeing the natdex was specifically because they're possible and allowed in local battles on cart, and currently everything we use is replicable on cart.

e: fixed putting the wrong words lol

Setsu edit: Leaving the post up since it explains mechanics and OMs, but we are moving from the sleep clause discussion in the next posts, ty
 
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My totally biased (and based) opinions about retesting Ubers:</p><p></p><p>Annihilape: Never. This is the last Uber I would retest, Miraidon, Arceus and Kyogre are all healthier for OU. This with Tera allowed. Without Tera, this is still broken, just not the most broken thing.
Every Arceus form except Arceus Bug: Lol, no.
Arceus Bug: With Tera allowed, 0 chance. Without it, I don,t see any problems at least retesting it. Its probably still broken, but its not an obvious Ban for me.
Calyrex-Ice: No.
Chi-Yu: With Tera, 0 chance. Without it, wouldn,t be opposed to make Rest or AV Tyranitar viable again.
Chien-Pao: I won,t this guy to be in OU to fuck over HO teams. However, even without Tera its probably too strong.
Dialga (both formes): No.
Espathra: With Tera allowed, never. Without it, its not broken.
Eternatus: No.
Flutter Mane: No.
Giratina-A: Everyone is against this, but compared to almost all the other Ubers, it doesn,t look as broken in OU. Would be a good Defogger.
Giratina-O: Nope, this one is too strong and versatile.
Groudon: No, this + Wake would be the dominating style.
Iron Bundle: No.
Koraidon: No.
Kyogre: No, unless Groudon, Rayquaza and Koraidon are retested too.
Lando-I: No, don,t commit the same mistake Gen after Gen.
Magearna: I still consider this to be less broken than last Gen. Which doesn,t say much, but without Tera, its an option.
Mewtwo: No.
Miraidon: Healthier than Annihilape doesn,t mean healthy.
Palafin: No. Its ugly in Hero form, so even less reasons.
Palkia (both formes): No.
Rayquaza: No.
Regieleki: Only if Tera is banned.
Spectrier: Not only Tera needs to be banned to consider this guy, but also Draining Kiss, which is not happening.
Urshifu (both formes): I had enough of them last Gen, no need to have them with SD in the Meta.
Volcarona: With Tera banned, I can see this healthy. With Tera allowed, I fully agree with the Ban.
Zacian (both formes): No, we already have Enamorus and Iron Valiant.
Zamazenta Crowned: Not entirely sure the Ban was a right thing, could be tested. If broken, it can always be banned again.

Mons that in current Meta I consider Ban worthy:
-Iron Valiant.
-Baxcalibur.
-Gholdengo.
-Enamorus.
-Garganacl.
-Samurott Hisui.

Future Mons I can see being Ban worthy:
-Gliscor.

Just to clarify: I personally don,t want Tera to be nerfed or banned at all.
 
Gen 9 OU is still pretty bad rn, adding any additional UUBers will just further trash the tier. Even if something like GiratinA doesn’t auto win on its own it just further strains building for no real upside. I am baffled by people who want to see Darkrai in this tier. There’s no conceivable way it’ll make things better; sometimes more is actually less. There’s countless mons below ZU in usage that people don’t constantly whine about having no tier in which they are competitive… why bad Ubers are apparently different is bizarre
:smogduck:
 
Eeveeto said:
My totally biased (and based) opinions about retesting Ubers:</p><p></p><p>Annihilape: Never. This is the last Uber I would retest, Miraidon, Arceus and Kyogre are all healthier for OU. This with Tera allowed. Without Tera, this is still broken, just not the most broken thing.
Every Arceus form except Arceus Bug: Lol, no.
Arceus Bug: With Tera allowed, 0 chance. Without it, I don,t see any problems at least retesting it. Its probably still broken, but its not an obvious Ban for me.
Calyrex-Ice: No.
Chi-Yu: With Tera, 0 chance. Without it, wouldn,t be opposed to make Rest or AV Tyranitar viable again.
Chien-Pao: I won,t this guy to be in OU to fuck over HO teams. However, even without Tera its probably too strong.
Dialga (both formes): No.
Espathra: With Tera allowed, never. Without it, its not broken.
Eternatus: No.
Flutter Mane: No.
Giratina-A: Everyone is against this, but compared to almost all the other Ubers, it doesn,t look as broken in OU. Would be a good Defogger.
Giratina-O: Nope, this one is too strong and versatile.
Groudon: No, this + Wake would be the dominating style.
Iron Bundle: No.
Koraidon: No.
Kyogre: No, unless Groudon, Rayquaza and Koraidon are retested too.
Lando-I: No, don,t commit the same mistake Gen after Gen.
Magearna: I still consider this to be less broken than last Gen. Which doesn,t say much, but without Tera, its an option.
Mewtwo: No.
Miraidon: Healthier than Annihilape doesn,t mean healthy.
Palafin: No. Its ugly in Hero form, so even less reasons.
Palkia (both formes): No.
Rayquaza: No.
Regieleki: Only if Tera is banned.
Spectrier: Not only Tera needs to be banned to consider this guy, but also Draining Kiss, which is not happening.
Urshifu (both formes): I had enough of them last Gen, no need to have them with SD in the Meta.
Volcarona: With Tera banned, I can see this healthy. With Tera allowed, I fully agree with the Ban.
Zacian (both formes): No, we already have Enamorus and Iron Valiant.
Zamazenta Crowned: Not entirely sure the Ban was a right thing, could be tested. If broken, it can always be banned again.

Mons that in current Meta I consider Ban worthy:
-Iron Valiant.
-Baxcalibur.
-Gholdengo.
-Enamorus.
-Garganacl.
-Samurott Hisui.

Future Mons I can see being Ban worthy:
-Gliscor.

Just to clarify: I personally don,t want Tera to be nerfed or banned at all.
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Can we please stop talking about unbanning cracked Ubers (also how tf do you think the ape is more broken than Miraidon, Arceus and Kyogre???)
 
BijouMode said:
Can we please stop talking about unbanning cracked Ubers (also how tf do you think the ape is more broken than Miraidon, Arceus and Kyogre???)
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Well, ok, you got me. Arceus is more broken than Ape, but only because it has 18 forms and on preview you can't see which one it is.

Annihilape straight up makes everything that is not fully offensive teams unviable. You can't chip it, it will use every chip move to boost Rage Fist to insane levels and OHKO your team later in the match. You can't defensively check the monkey except with Hisuian Zoroark, a suboptimal Mon.

Miraidon has defensive and offensive checks. Ting Lu and Iron Treads switch into most moves, Iron Valiant and Iron Leaves use it's own terrain against him, CM Blissey walls most sets except CM + Taunt, Clod is decent too, Pult outspeeds and OHKOs. Of course, Miraidon can and will beat all of them with the right set and prediction, but Miraidon player still has to work for it, he has to use the brain. Meanwhile, Annihilape matching against even slightly defensive team will win 99% of the time even randomly clicking buttons, that's why it's more unhealthy, it limits the meta to hard offense, which already is dominating without him.

In Ubers, it's of course different. Ubers team can afford to run defensive Mons that still have enough power to blow through Annihilape or to outspeed and cripple it, or even Taunt. Examples include the same Miraidon, Kyogre, several Arceus forms, Volcarona (which is probably bad in Ubers, but a solid check nonetheless to non Tera Fire monkey), Groudon, etc. That's why in Ubers the monkey is completely healthy and even maybe underwhelming, while in OU it's harder to adapt the meta for it without reducing variety of team styles than to things like Miraidon.
 
Eeveeto said:
Well, ok, you got me. Arceus is more broken than Ape, but only because it has 18 forms and on preview you can't see which one it is.

Annihilape straight up makes everything that is not fully offensive teams unviable. You can't chip it, it will use every chip move to boost Rage Fist to insane levels and OHKO your team later in the match. You can't defensively check the monkey except with Hisuian Zoroark, a suboptimal Mon.

Miraidon has defensive and offensive checks. Ting Lu and Iron Treads switch into most moves, Iron Valiant and Iron Leaves use it's own terrain against him, CM Blissey walls most sets except CM + Taunt, Clod is decent too, Pult outspeeds and OHKOs. Of course, Miraidon can and will beat all of them with the right set and prediction, but Miraidon player still has to work for it, he has to use the brain. Meanwhile, Annihilape matching against even slightly defensive team will win 99% of the time even randomly clicking buttons, that's why it's more unhealthy, it limits the meta to hard offense, which already is dominating without him.

In Ubers, it's of course different. Ubers team can afford to run defensive Mons that still have enough power to blow through Annihilape or to outspeed and cripple it, or even Taunt. Examples include the same Miraidon, Kyogre, several Arceus forms, Volcarona (which is probably bad in Ubers, but a solid check nonetheless to non Tera Fire monkey), Groudon, etc. That's why in Ubers the monkey is completely healthy and even maybe underwhelming, while in OU it's harder to adapt the meta for it without reducing variety of team styles than to things like Miraidon.
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I'm so surprised you actually tried to defend this take.

First of all, idk why you mentioned IRON LEAVES when talking about Ubers (btw IVal can't even ohko miraidon after rocks), anyway, Miraidon has the ability to blow through every check you mentioned picking up OHKOs or 2HKOs on most of them, apart from Blissey, which it can beat with its CM + Taunt set. Miraidon has 0 reliable checks in OU (and kind of in Ubers as well) and it is so much better than Ape, it's hilarious. While Ape can, admittedly, stifle defensive play, Miraidon beats EVERYTHING.
 
15terms said:
Unless you're spdef treads, it's losing to calm mind sets and all overheat sets.
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Thats the best set for OU and is used in Ubers too.

BijouMode said:
I'm so surprised you actually tried to defend this take.

First of all, idk why you mentioned IRON LEAVES when talking about Ubers (btw IVal can't even ohko miraidon after rocks), anyway, Miraidon has the ability to blow through every check you mentioned picking up OHKOs or 2HKOs on most of them, apart from Blissey, which it can beat with its CM + Taunt set. Miraidon has 0 reliable checks in OU (and kind of in Ubers as well) and it is so much better than Ape, it's hilarious. While Ape can, admittedly, stifle defensive play, Miraidon beats EVERYTHING.
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I said Miraidon beats everything, but its not beating everything brainlessly clicking. Miraidon takes skill to use vs OU Meta, Anihilape will win vs defensive playstyles 99% of the time without even trying to do it, its that broken. Yes, Miraidon has more immediate damage and OU will certainly not be balanced with it. But OU still can adapt to Miraidon, from HO to Stall, every playstyle will still be more or less viable with Miraidon, even if it means 70% usage for Miraidon. This can,t be said for Annihilape, that thing was the most broken and unhealthy (for OU environment, I repeat it) thing that has ever come to the Tier and is not even close.
 
BijouMode said:
I'm so surprised you actually tried to defend this take.

First of all, idk why you mentioned IRON LEAVES when talking about Ubers (btw IVal can't even ohko miraidon after rocks), anyway, Miraidon has the ability to blow through every check you mentioned picking up OHKOs or 2HKOs on most of them, apart from Blissey, which it can beat with its CM + Taunt set. Miraidon has 0 reliable checks in OU (and kind of in Ubers as well) and it is so much better than Ape, it's hilarious. While Ape can, admittedly, stifle defensive play, Miraidon beats EVERYTHING.
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Cons:
  • Beats everything in the meta
Pros
  • Beats Baxcalibur, Kingambit, and Valiant
  • Makes Iron Treads more viable
  • Forms a potent double E-Terrain core with Pincurchin
I think you know which one our metagame needs.

Anyways, to not derail the thread too much, I am curious what players thoughts are on some of the OLT trends. Saw some wild stuff like Flapple, Tinkaton, etc. + some interesting counterteams like only running Gholdengo / Hoopa-U for the stall matchup lmao. I am curious if this sort of counter teamming really is the best strategy to get to the top and whether its more of an "issue" this gen compared to prior ones (if it even is an issue to begin with).
 
I feel really dumb for not reading that the sleep cause discussion was ended, but anyway.

honestly trying to see which Pokémon are broken and should be in Uber and while instead not and could help others in OU and counter some of the major threats is chaotic, with the powercreep this meta has, with Miraidon even beating Blissey with CM + Taunt and Annihilape just being the angy monke it is just to say some of the most famous.
I don't think Magearna could be restested for OU, as we already saw with its typing being one of the best, bulky enough to setup and sweep with Stored Power boosted even more by its ability and the Tera with its movepool helps it even more.
Volcarona honestly could be retested when the new and old mons get added, but was almost OU in every Gen and now that got Tera could eliminate all the weaknesses that check it/counter it
Tbh Zamazenta is already ok how it is, with its Hero form in OU and Crowned from in Uber, as even if it's very defensive, still has no recovery moves, while the Crowned can't hold any item besides the Rusted Shield, and HZamazenta can help to check many Dark types introduced, and possibly also the new ones of the DLC
 
Eeveeto said:
Well, ok, you got me. Arceus is more broken than Ape, but only because it has 18 forms and on preview you can't see which one it is.

Annihilape straight up makes everything that is not fully offensive teams unviable. You can't chip it, it will use every chip move to boost Rage Fist to insane levels and OHKO your team later in the match. You can't defensively check the monkey except with Hisuian Zoroark, a suboptimal Mon.

Miraidon has defensive and offensive checks. Ting Lu and Iron Treads switch into most moves, Iron Valiant and Iron Leaves use it's own terrain against him, CM Blissey walls most sets except CM + Taunt, Clod is decent too, Pult outspeeds and OHKOs. Of course, Miraidon can and will beat all of them with the right set and prediction, but Miraidon player still has to work for it, he has to use the brain. Meanwhile, Annihilape matching against even slightly defensive team will win 99% of the time even randomly clicking buttons, that's why it's more unhealthy, it limits the meta to hard offense, which already is dominating without him.

In Ubers, it's of course different. Ubers team can afford to run defensive Mons that still have enough power to blow through Annihilape or to outspeed and cripple it, or even Taunt. Examples include the same Miraidon, Kyogre, several Arceus forms, Volcarona (which is probably bad in Ubers, but a solid check nonetheless to non Tera Fire monkey), Groudon, etc. That's why in Ubers the monkey is completely healthy and even maybe underwhelming, while in OU it's harder to adapt the meta for it without reducing variety of team styles than to things like Miraidon.
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This has to be bait. Miraidon is broken even in ubers. The tera fairy dazzling gleam parabolic charge set would literally 6-0 every ou team in existence
 
Wapf said:
This has to be bait. Miraidon is broken even in ubers. The tera fairy dazzling gleam parabolic charge set would literally 6-0 every ou team in existence
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Untitled257_20230829190014.png

Its even funnier the second time
 
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Like Finchinator, I would vote to keep everything aside from Volcarona Uber. I believe that everything else that has been banned so far deserved it 100%, and Volcarona, while being closer to straddling the line between OU and Uber, is probably still broken, it deserves a bit of extra scrutiny.
 
Hello everyone, I haven't enjoyed the current meta much so I haven't played much of it after the Kingambit suspect. However, I'm excited for the new DLC1 meta, so lets forget this lame metagame and talk about how some of the new returning pokemon could fit in this metagame.

!! I will be talking about datamines here, so if you don't want to be spoiled on potential surprises still, don't read this. !!

:clefable: The saviour of the tier, honestly this tier is in major need of a magic guard user. Garganacl is always an issue present in the builder, especially for bulkier teams, their answers tend to be Regenerator spam or Covert Cloak. Being able to not worry about hazard stack and being able to run other items seems really good too. It is going to be heavily nerfed, as it loses access to Soft Boiled. Being forced to run Moonlight for recovery will be heavily limiting, especially if a resurgence of Sand is to come back with Gliscor and the datamined Excadrill, this thing won't look as good on Sand balance as it did in SS. Rain is also always a looming threat in the builder. I think the most popular set will end up being CM + Life Orb Magic Guard. It's just an extremely powerful set that seems to fit in really well into this meta.

:kommo-o: I think this could be scary with tera. Kommo-o had a massive glowdown from SM to SS, but I still think it was an underrated defensive little guy in SS. It's a cool mon that might be hard to fit, but has some solid utility and with tera it can check a lot more than it previously could.

:excadrill: Not confirmed but datamined, who was asking for spinners? Excadrill will be a godsend to the tier and singlehandedly make Tyranitar OU again. Especially with the prominent fairies in the tier such as Enamorus & Iron Valiant, being able to revenge kill them is an almost impossible feat right now, but Excadrill can do that in Sand!

:mamoswine: Ice + Ground STAB is extremely good, Baxcalibur already proved that this gen! (it will be unused till Bax gets banned, used when it's gone)

:crawdaunt: I think this thing will be underrated. Trick Room has some extremely good resources this gen between Ursaluna, Iron Hands, Kingambit and now Crawdaunt. I could definitely see a resurgence in Trick Room teams like we did at the beginning of the HOME meta. It will never be the greatest archetype, but it's going to feel more viable than ever.

:conkeldurr: yeah no trick room is SO back

:gliscor: I don't think it will be very good, but it will always have its uses. I think Toxic Orb + SD could be popular. I'm unsure if it keeps toxic, but if it does, the always annoying Toxic/EQ/Roost then Rocks/Substitute will always be present. I just don't know if it'll look great into the metagame with all the rain, hyper offence, and ice types. Gliscor could be a massive beneficiary of Tera however, and I'm interested to see how it plays out.

:Infernape: This has potential to be good good. Fire/Fighting STAB is absolutely incredible. Fighting priority is great in a metagame with Kingambit, and Breloom proved that IMO (which has been a very underappreciated mon). Haven't heard enough people talking about it, might fall to UU, but will have an excellent niche in OU in my eyes.

:ninetales-alola: BY FAR my favourite returning mon. Snow Warning in a metagame with Baxcalibur is absolutely incredible. A good speed tier, access to Freeze-Dry which isn't a present move in OU at all. Aurora Veil and Encore are incredible moves and it will enable the already controversial Baxcalibur to high degrees. Having a snow setter better than Abombasnow may also give rise to Cetitan, a new mon to generation 9. Cetitan has access to Slush Rush and Belly Drum, meaning behind Aurora Veil if got in safely can reliably get a Belly Drum (esp with the new defence boost in snow!) then outspeed most of the tier in Snow. It's going to ba an excellent mon, and am very excited to abuse snow teams day 1.

I hope this sparks some conversation around the upcoming DLC1 as this meta will be relatively unplayed in a few weeks!
 
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jackuzzler said:
:excadrill: Not confirmed but datamined, who was asking for spinners? Excadrill will be a godsend to the tier and singlehandedly make Tyranitar OU again. Especially with the prominent fairies in the tier such as Enamorus & Iron Valiant, being able to revenge kill them is an almost impossible feat right now, but Excadrill can do that in Sand!
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I doubt Excadrill returning can make Tyranitar OU again, Tyranitar is extremely awful in OU and only having Excadrill is a beneficiary is not good, especially because Excadrill also struggles with common mons.

Great Tusk/Ting Lu eat even +2 earthquakes like they're nothing and OHKOs in return, Kingambit can revenge kill with sucker punch and always lives +2 earthquake if it terastalizes out of ground weakness, Gholdengo with air balloon intact can stop excadrill in it's tracks, Zamazenta revenge kills with ease and Dondozo completely stops drill from doing anything. The return of Gliscor is also very bad for Excadrill.

There's other good Excadrill checks but I don't feel like writing an essay about every single possible check, but excadrill has a ton of already existing common counterplay and is the only beneficiary of sand stream in the entire game outside ttar and other shitmons.
 
15terms said:
I doubt Excadrill returning can make Tyranitar OU again, Tyranitar is extremely awful in OU and only having Excadrill is a beneficiary is not good, especially because Excadrill also struggles with common mons.

Great Tusk/Ting Lu eat even +2 earthquakes like they're nothing and OHKOs in return, Kingambit can revenge kill with sucker punch and always lives +2 earthquake if it terastalizes out of ground weakness, Gholdengo with air balloon intact can stop excadrill in it's tracks, Zamazenta revenge kills with ease and Dondozo completely stops drill from doing anything. The return of Gliscor is also very bad for Excadrill.

There's other good Excadrill checks but I don't feel like writing an essay about every single possible check, but excadrill has a ton of already existing common counterplay and is the only beneficiary of sand stream in the entire game outside ttar and other shitmons.
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I could definitely agree with this. I think having another spinner is valuable however as well as it would be good into HO. I do think Tyranitar usage goes up a little bit regardless because Excadrill is always going to have some level of viability, and it'll always have checks as well. Every tier Excadrill is good in there is still an abundance of checks for it, but it's the utility and power (especially against HO in this gen I would imagine) that will make it good.
 
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