Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[AlexIGuessNotFound]

Why Gen 9 OU sucks and how it may be able to be fixed. (Reposted from Reddit)

This is probably my least favorite OU to play. Every game feels like an RNG coin toss and the metagame is incredibly stale. I'm confident I'm not the only one who feels this way about OU so here I'm listing my main gripes with the tier.

1. Terastalization - This mechanic is bad enough on its own, but when combined with all the other broken factors, not only does it encourage coinflips (Which I absolutely hate), but also kills any semblance of reliable defensive checks in the tier. Example: Kingambit abuses Tera Fairy/ Tera Flying to destroy the Great Tusk matchup. This is absolutely an uncompetitive mechanic that does a lot of harm to the tier, as well as pushing Pokemon like Volcarona (Which could help check Iron Valiant) over the edge. Even if not that many Pokemon would be unbanned if Tera was banned, that doesn't change the fact that Tera still makes what should be good matchups and completely flips them, destroying any semblance of defensive reliability.
2. Kingambit - It is insane to me how a Pokemon as blatantly broken as Kingambit is allowed in the tier, I just could not fathom how some people are only NOW realizing this thing is stupid after it overtook Great Tusk as the #1 most used Pokemon. Great Tusk is a fake check that can't do anything if KIngambit becomes a fairy and clicks Tera Blast, and if Great Tusk can't handle it, how is it not broken? The only reason Kingambit is somewhat reasonable right now is that Willo-Wisp is very Common and Iron Valiant can eat a Sucker Punch, not to mention the numerous defensive Teras such as Fairy that has been popular for a while, stuffing sucker punch being a valuable benefit. Dondozo has also risen in Popularity which is the best counter-pick to Gambit, sporting massive defense and unaware. Yet, Gambit still sweeps teams very often and is still a menace. Tera Fire/ Lum Berry can punish Willo-Wisp spam. Tera Dark Black Glasses Kowtow Cleave with Supreme Overlord boosts heavily pressure Dondozo. Defensive Teras allow Kingambit to alleviate the reliance on Sucker Punch and take out sets that were supposed to beat it. This mon is quite nice defensively I'll admit, but there is no way to justify this menace warping the entire meta around it because it checks other mildly broken Pokemon like Dragapult.
3. Not as stupid but still pretty stupid game-ending threats - Baxcalibur completely sweeps many teams with just two Dragon Dances. It is absurdly powerful and giving it any room to set up (which it can force with Tera anyway) can be a death sentence for any team not packing Dondozo. Or how about the terrifying Booster Valiant, with seemingly endless amounts of variation and the ability to completely wipe teams in the end game lacking proper counterplay? (You thought Slowking G could beat it? Watch it use +2 Tera Dark Knock-Off and delete your chance of winning the game) And then there is Sneasler, with terrifying offensive potential and access to Unburden. There are many, many ways to activate it. (The newest one is using Fling with a Big Nugget and destroying Pokemon like Slowking Galar and Gholdengo). The amount of threats you have to account for to make a half-decent balance core is stupid and makes teambuilding balance painful at times.
4. Limited Hazard Control - In a meta where every ground type learns Spikes and there's a Pokemon throwing around STAB 97.5 BP hazards, The lack of good hazard control is absolutely egregious. The removal of defog from everything, save for a few Pokemon like Corviknight, already makes Hazards a problem, even with the presence of Heavy-Duty Boots. What really makes hazards feel absolutely insufferable is Gholdengo. It spin blocker that also blocks Defog, thanks to Good as Gold, and with Defog distribution getting nerfed, the only OU-caliber Pokemon with access to Defog is Corviknight, a Pokemon that is absolutely tooled by Gholdengo. Great Tusk is supposed to "shut down" these team styles, but in reality, it's been unreliable for a while. Gholdengo slams it for massive damage with Make It Rain, so Great Tusk usually isn't excited about having to deal with Gholdengo in a 1v1, especially if it's holding an Air Balloon. While Great Tusk can knock off the switch, a Pokemon like Iron Valiant can very easily be brought in and punish Tusk for not rapid spinning, meaning Tusk is susceptible to failing at keeping hazards off the field. Not to mention doubling up on Ghost-types such as Dragapult makes Tusk's life even harder. The only other counterplay is a Court Change Cinderace, which is flawed. 1: Cinderace is naturally frail and has a tough matchup against Hazard setters, 2: You don't really want to set up your own Hazards, and 3: They would set hazards up again and Court Change is useless. The hazard meta is an ass.
5. Overcentralization - Every team is Tusk; Gambit; Bax; Valiant; Hamurott; Glowking; Dragapult; Gholdengo; and a less viable but usually OU pick. Teams are incredibly stale and the meta forces it to. Why not run Gholdengo when there are so many dangerous threats like Iron Valiant and Sneasler running around? Why NOT run Tusk when it's still one of the better Gambit answers and a rare source of relief from Hazards? WHY use a shit-mon from a lower tier when all the top tiers are so much better? This meta is a fucking disaster.

What I Believe Needs To Happen
Ban. Ban. Ban.
Get Kingambit the fuck out of OU. Ban the incredibly uncompetitive mechanic "Terastalization". (And unban Pokemon like Regieleki/ Volcarona) If Dragapult becomes too much? Ban it. If Gholdengo hazard stack chokes the meta too much? BAN IT. The stigma around banning Pokemon has been around since the inception of competitive. Generation 5 is where we see it at its previous worse and wow, the tier is shitty and dead. Freedom Cup unbanned a lot of mons that casual players wanted in OU aaannnddd: The tier was completely awful and died after two weeks. We already know what happens when we don't put our foot down and deal with something problematic. This tier can still be saved, but only if people are willing to recognize that what's "cool" isn't what is best for the tier.
TLDR: Play Advance OU because nothing will change and the tier will go down its unfortunate trajectory and ADV is Goated.

 

[ant4456]

anyone who hahas the above post only likes HO and thinks that adequate counterplay to Pokemon in a good metagame is "outspeed it bro"

because thats exactly how a lot of Pokemon in the tier are balanced honestly

there is literally no controversial take in this post except that it challenges the idea that a good metagame is one in which Hyper Offense dominates

which I'll ask those advocates one question: which prior OU has games that end in 15 turns

Gen 7 OU is also not an HO tier. Sure on ladder, but BO is absolutely King and Balance is still pretty good. There is a reason why Pursuit Tyranitar is amazing here, despite not having that many Ghosts or weak Psychics, it's because playing the longer game than Turn 20 is a big deal in most actual tournament matches.
Gen 6 OU had an HO streak but BO is still king. Gen 8? yeah.
Gen 5 OU still has tons of Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Gliscor wars and plenty of fiddling around offensive and defensive checks throughout many turns.
Gen 4 OU has things like Jirachi and Clefable Balance is still really good.
Gen 3 OU is fairly defensive with single Spike damage being a large part in making progress throughout long games, also being why Knock Off Hariyama is viable.
Gen 2 OU has a reputation and even in its offensive meta you are still sitting down for 50 turns.
Gen 1 OU has a lot of the game coming down to fishing Freezes, Paras and Sleep onto the rifht Pokemon to make progress.

Every other generation has Hyper Offense as not really the main archetype in the tier. Because a tier should never be balanced around HO in the same way that Stall shouldn't. Stall and Hyper Offense in most OUs are somewhat of matchup fishes, and that is the penalty in a good tier of running such a one-sided playstyle. The right Stallbreaker or the right defensive Pokemon really owns them in most tiers.

Now we have Gen 9 OU with 5/10 scores in both Balance and Fun, HO is very easily arguably the best teamstyle and frankly, that's terrible for game health. HO meta is not healthy.

BO is mostly just HO but quad+ HDB and it's just trying harder to not lose a Pokemon instantly to Gambit, Bax or Walking Wake.

Balance is literally the same team every time, and it's not even that good with the same team every time.

Stall is like a thing that still loses unless you vastly outskill your opponent, or the opponent teambuilt like shit.

Hyper Offense has like every tool it would ever need and the DLC is giving it a new one, Alolan Ninetales, which will make it even more broken.

Hyper Offense promotes shorter games with shorter plans and endgames, with less time to learn your opponent, more match-up fishing and less nuance and skill than your average Bulky Offense metagame.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

anyone who hahas the above post only likes HO and thinks that adequate counterplay to Pokemon in a good metagame is "outspeed it bro"

because thats exactly how a lot of Pokemon in the tier are balanced honestly

Motherfucker Kingambit is slower than a fucking rock. It's speed is a priority move

"Just use Priority blocking" yea sure 2 dark weak psychic types and a grass type that's never seen ou success are solid counters to Kingambit

At this point I've given up on OU this gen. Too much power to be a fun metagame

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Why Gen 9 OU sucks and how it may be able to be fixed. (Reposted from Reddit)

This is probably my least favorite OU to play. Every game feels like an RNG coin toss and the metagame is incredibly stale. I'm confident I'm not the only one who feels this way about OU so here I'm listing my main gripes with the tier.

1. Terastalization - This mechanic is bad enough on its own, but when combined with all the other broken factors, not only does it encourage coinflips (Which I absolutely hate), but also kills any semblance of reliable defensive checks in the tier. Example: Kingambit abuses Tera Fairy/ Tera Flying to destroy the Great Tusk matchup. This is absolutely an uncompetitive mechanic that does a lot of harm to the tier, as well as pushing Pokemon like Volcarona (Which could help check Iron Valiant) over the edge. Even if not that many Pokemon would be unbanned if Tera was banned, that doesn't change the fact that Tera still makes what should be good matchups and completely flips them, destroying any semblance of defensive reliability.
2. Kingambit - It is insane to me how a Pokemon as blatantly broken as Kingambit is allowed in the tier, I just could not fathom how some people are only NOW realizing this thing is stupid after it overtook Great Tusk as the #1 most used Pokemon. Great Tusk is a fake check that can't do anything if KIngambit becomes a fairy and clicks Tera Blast, and if Great Tusk can't handle it, how is it not broken? The only reason Kingambit is somewhat reasonable right now is that Willo-Wisp is very Common and Iron Valiant can eat a Sucker Punch, not to mention the numerous defensive Teras such as Fairy that has been popular for a while, stuffing sucker punch being a valuable benefit. Dondozo has also risen in Popularity which is the best counter-pick to Gambit, sporting massive defense and unaware. Yet, Gambit still sweeps teams very often and is still a menace. Tera Fire/ Lum Berry can punish Willo-Wisp spam. Tera Dark Black Glasses Kowtow Cleave with Supreme Overlord boosts heavily pressure Dondozo. Defensive Teras allow Kingambit to alleviate the reliance on Sucker Punch and take out sets that were supposed to beat it. This mon is quite nice defensively I'll admit, but there is no way to justify this menace warping the entire meta around it because it checks other mildly broken Pokemon like Dragapult.
3. Not as stupid but still pretty stupid game-ending threats - Baxcalibur completely sweeps many teams with just two Dragon Dances. It is absurdly powerful and giving it any room to set up (which it can force with Tera anyway) can be a death sentence for any team not packing Dondozo. Or how about the terrifying Booster Valiant, with seemingly endless amounts of variation and the ability to completely wipe teams in the end game lacking proper counterplay? (You thought Slowking G could beat it? Watch it use +2 Tera Dark Knock-Off and delete your chance of winning the game) And then there is Sneasler, with terrifying offensive potential and access to Unburden. There are many, many ways to activate it. (The newest one is using Fling with a Big Nugget and destroying Pokemon like Slowking Galar and Gholdengo). The amount of threats you have to account for to make a half-decent balance core is stupid and makes teambuilding balance painful at times.
4. Limited Hazard Control - In a meta where every ground type learns Spikes and there's a Pokemon throwing around STAB 97.5 BP hazards, The lack of good hazard control is absolutely egregious. The removal of defog from everything, save for a few Pokemon like Corviknight, already makes Hazards a problem, even with the presence of Heavy-Duty Boots. What really makes hazards feel absolutely insufferable is Gholdengo. It spin blocker that also blocks Defog, thanks to Good as Gold, and with Defog distribution getting nerfed, the only OU-caliber Pokemon with access to Defog is Corviknight, a Pokemon that is absolutely tooled by Gholdengo. Great Tusk is supposed to "shut down" these team styles, but in reality, it's been unreliable for a while. Gholdengo slams it for massive damage with Make It Rain, so Great Tusk usually isn't excited about having to deal with Gholdengo in a 1v1, especially if it's holding an Air Balloon. While Great Tusk can knock off the switch, a Pokemon like Iron Valiant can very easily be brought in and punish Tusk for not rapid spinning, meaning Tusk is susceptible to failing at keeping hazards off the field. Not to mention doubling up on Ghost-types such as Dragapult makes Tusk's life even harder. The only other counterplay is a Court Change Cinderace, which is flawed. 1: Cinderace is naturally frail and has a tough matchup against Hazard setters, 2: You don't really want to set up your own Hazards, and 3: They would set hazards up again and Court Change is useless. The hazard meta is an ass.
5. Overcentralization - Every team is Tusk; Gambit; Bax; Valiant; Hamurott; Glowking; Dragapult; Gholdengo; and a less viable but usually OU pick. Teams are incredibly stale and the meta forces it to. Why not run Gholdengo when there are so many dangerous threats like Iron Valiant and Sneasler running around? Why NOT run Tusk when it's still one of the better Gambit answers and a rare source of relief from Hazards? WHY use a shit-mon from a lower tier when all the top tiers are so much better? This meta is a fucking disaster.

What I Believe Needs To Happen
Ban. Ban. Ban.
Get Kingambit the fuck out of OU. Ban the incredibly uncompetitive mechanic "Terastalization". (And unban Pokemon like Regieleki/ Volcarona) If Dragapult becomes too much? Ban it. If Gholdengo hazard stack chokes the meta too much? BAN IT. The stigma around banning Pokemon has been around since the inception of competitive. Generation 5 is where we see it at its previous worse and wow, the tier is shitty and dead. Freedom Cup unbanned a lot of mons that casual players wanted in OU aaannnddd: The tier was completely awful and died after two weeks. We already know what happens when we don't put our foot down and deal with something problematic. This tier can still be saved, but only if people are willing to recognize that what's "cool" isn't what is best for the tier.
TLDR: Play Advance OU because nothing will change and the tier will go down its unfortunate trajectory and ADV is Goated.

I see you have a problem with the current OU. I'd like to offer you a solution: LOKIX
Wait wait hear me out I'm not kidding
So you mention in your analysis that defensive and emergency teras suck right? Well, Lokix gives no shits about any of that with Tinted Lens. On some pokemon, emergency Tera is good for Lokix, like Valiant or Dengo. Lokix actually benefits from Tera itself for its amazing First Impressions, but it's original typing is not always useless either to stay in and Throat Chop against Shadow Ball Dengo/Pult. (It also can survive a +2 5 supreme overlord Kingambit Sucker Punch from full and OHKO it back with Axe Kick!)
Furthermore, it solves a lot of problems you seem to have with Hyper Offense
Bax causing you problems at +2? Don't worry! You can revenge kill it as long as you've done a maximum of 23% damage to it! It can even switch in on +2 earthquake WITH STEALTH ROCK! Amazing!!!!
I see you thinking, but Shroom, don't pokemon like Gholdengo or Valiant completely blank you? and the answer is NO
Gholdengo can't switch in on Throat Chop and has to be wary of Sucker Punch while Valiant can switch into Band First Impression exactly once per game, as it 2HKOs.
"But, with this pokemon that excels against HO, surely you autolose to Stall, right?" WRONG! With Leech Life, you not only 2HKO the entirety of Stall teams sans Dozo and Corv, you can do it while regaining health to combat poison and stealth rocks! With Future Sight support or just using anything that can break Dozo, you basically 6-0 stall!
Unfortunately this isn't the most common playstyle so it's limited in its usefulness, but its still a nice trait to have for that 1 in 50 battles
You might think that the lack of overall hazard support messes Lokix up, since it's reliant on its Choice Band to do any real damage. That's true, but Leech Life very much helps with this, as it usually does enough that Rocky Helmet on stuff like Corv won't deal back all the damage, and that's one more stealth rock switchin for it.
Plus, hazards are a two-way street. The addition of hazards drastically improves potential targets for First Impression, like Baxcalibur or Enamorus (with Sucker Punch), Iron Moth, Sneasler, Wake, and Hatterene and just generally makes it harder to withstand the bug's attacks.
Seriously, people need to use lokix! I am not shitposting it is actually good!!!!

 

[MattC (Banned)]

I see you have a problem with the current OU. I'd like to offer you a solution: LOKIX
Wait wait hear me out I'm not kidding
So you mention in your analysis that defensive and emergency teras suck right? Well, Lokix gives no shits about any of that with Tinted Lens. On some pokemon, emergency Tera is good for Lokix, like Valiant or Dengo. Lokix actually benefits from Tera itself for its amazing First Impressions, but it's original typing is not always useless either to stay in and Throat Chop against Shadow Ball Dengo/Pult. (It also can survive a +2 5 supreme overlord Kingambit Sucker Punch from full and OHKO it back with Axe Kick!)
Furthermore, it solves a lot of problems you seem to have with Hyper Offense
Bax causing you problems at +2? Don't worry! You can revenge kill it as long as you've done a maximum of 23% damage to it! It can even switch in on +2 earthquake WITH STEALTH ROCK! Amazing!!!!
I see you thinking, but Shroom, don't pokemon like Gholdengo or Valiant completely blank you? and the answer is NO
Gholdengo can't switch in on Throat Chop and has to be wary of Sucker Punch while Valiant can switch into Band First Impression exactly once per game, as it 2HKOs.
"But, with this pokemon that excels against HO, surely you autolose to Stall, right?" WRONG! With Leech Life, you not only 2HKO the entirety of Stall teams sans Dozo and Corv, you can do it while regaining health to combat poison and stealth rocks! With Future Sight support or just using anything that can break Dozo, you basically 6-0 stall!
Unfortunately this isn't the most common playstyle so it's limited in its usefulness, but its still a nice trait to have for that 1 in 50 battles
You might think that the lack of overall hazard support messes Lokix up, since it's reliant on its Choice Band to do any real damage. That's true, but Leech Life very much helps with this, as it usually does enough that Rocky Helmet on stuff like Corv won't deal back all the damage, and that's one more stealth rock switchin for it.
Plus, hazards are a two-way street. The addition of hazards drastically improves potential targets for First Impression, like Baxcalibur or Enamorus (with Sucker Punch), Iron Moth, Sneasler, Wake, and Hatterene and just generally makes it harder to withstand the bug's attacks.
Seriously, people need to use lokix! I am not shitposting it is actually good!!!!

Your username don't match your newfound love for Lokix ma boi. I suggest u change it but hey, that's just me

 

[Alternator]

anyone who hahas the above post only likes HO and thinks that adequate counterplay to Pokemon in a good metagame is "outspeed it bro"

because thats exactly how a lot of Pokemon in the tier are balanced honestly

there is literally no controversial take in this post except that it challenges the idea that a good metagame is one in which Hyper Offense dominates

which I'll ask those advocates one question: which prior OU has games that end in 15 turns

Gen 7 OU is also not an HO tier. Sure on ladder, but BO is absolutely King and Balance is still pretty good. There is a reason why Pursuit Tyranitar is amazing here, despite not having that many Ghosts or weak Psychics, it's because playing the longer game than Turn 20 is a big deal in most actual tournament matches.
Gen 6 OU had an HO streak but BO is still king. Gen 8? yeah.
Gen 5 OU still has tons of Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Gliscor wars and plenty of fiddling around offensive and defensive checks throughout many turns.
Gen 4 OU has things like Jirachi and Clefable Balance is still really good.
Gen 3 OU is fairly defensive with single Spike damage being a large part in making progress throughout long games, also being why Knock Off Hariyama is viable.
Gen 2 OU has a reputation and even in its offensive meta you are still sitting down for 50 turns.
Gen 1 OU has a lot of the game coming down to fishing Freezes, Paras and Sleep onto the rifht Pokemon to make progress.

Every other generation has Hyper Offense as not really the main archetype in the tier. Because a tier should never be balanced around HO in the same way that Stall shouldn't. Stall and Hyper Offense in most OUs are somewhat of matchup fishes, and that is the penalty in a good tier of running such a one-sided playstyle. The right Stallbreaker or the right defensive Pokemon really owns them in most tiers.

Now we have Gen 9 OU with 5/10 scores in both Balance and Fun, HO is very easily arguably the best teamstyle and frankly, that's terrible for game health. HO meta is not healthy.

BO is mostly just HO but quad+ HDB and it's just trying harder to not lose a Pokemon instantly to Gambit, Bax or Walking Wake.

Balance is literally the same team every time, and it's not even that good with the same team every time.

Stall is like a thing that still loses unless you vastly outskill your opponent, or the opponent teambuilt like shit.

Hyper Offense has like every tool it would ever need and the DLC is giving it a new one, Alolan Ninetales, which will make it even more broken.

Hyper Offense promotes shorter games with shorter plans and endgames, with less time to learn your opponent, more match-up fishing and less nuance and skill than your average Bulky Offense metagame.

Gen 9 with slightly longer median game length than Gen 4, and longer mean and median than Gen 5. Was Gen 4 an HO hellhole?

 

[ant4456]

data from one tournament

with little context

lmao okay you've really owned me

also Gen 4 OU does have pretty good HO that's why Gyarados was one of the most used Pokemon in that tournament

 

[artificialdeath]

also Gen 4 OU does have pretty good HO that's why Gyarados was one of the most used Pokemon in that tournament

Has it caught on more in recent months? 10+ years ago this would certainly be true but I was under the impression that stall was at its strongest in modern DPP compared to other gens

 

[ant4456]

Has it caught on more in recent months? 10+ years ago this would certainly be true but I was under the impression that stall was at its strongest in modern DPP compared to other gens

clefable balance is really good but Gyarados HO is also really good and Gyarados is arguably broken in the tier (not that I necessarily agree with that, just something some believe)

double DD + rocks lead is fun

 

[Alternator]

data from one tournament

with little context

lmao okay you've really owned me

also Gen 4 OU does have pretty good HO that's why Gyarados was one of the most used Pokemon in that tournament

Your entire post was "Gen 9 is an HO hellhole and all the games are super fast." I showed that while Gen 9 is, indeed, producing short games, it's not the shortest.

which I'll ask those advocates one question: which prior OU has games that end in 15 turns

If this is true of Gen 9, then it's true of Gen 5 (shorter mean and median) and arguably true of Gen 4 (shorter median).

 

[artificialdeath]

View attachment 547841

Gen 9 with slightly longer median game length than Gen 4, and longer mean and median than Gen 5. Was Gen 4 an HO hellhole?

WCoP turn count would probably be a better metric to use, considering it actually reflects the meta we're in rather than the previous one. Having stats that compare to Gen 5's isn't a great thing, although in all fairness I believe SPL ran during the Chi-Yu, Annihilape, Chien-Pao, Espathra, and Shed Tail metas, ending right before the Shed Tail ban (which is when the meta started to stabilize more). The fundamental issue hasn't changed though; there are just too many ridiculously strong, ridiculously fast setup sweepers rn and all of them can abuse Tera to its fullest. Gambit Valiant and Bax are the undisputed champions of this but there's many others as well.

Walking Wake, which has picked up in usage a bit, might as well be called Unova's Revenge because it's the unholy lovechild of Keldeo and Latios

 

[ant4456]

If this is true of Gen 9, then it's true of Gen 5 (shorter mean and median)

 

[Alternator]

WCoP turn count would probably be a better metric to use, considering it actually reflects the meta we're in rather than the previous one. Having stats that compare to Gen 5's isn't a great thing, although in all fairness I believe SPL ran during the Chi-Yu, Annihilape, Chien-Pao, Espathra, and Shed Tail metas, ending right before the Shed Tail ban (which is when the meta started to stabilize more). The fundamental issue hasn't changed though; there are just too many ridiculously strong, ridiculously fast setup sweepers rn and all of them can abuse Tera to its fullest. Gambit Valiant and Bax are the undisputed champions of this but there's many others as well.

Walking Wake, which has picked up in usage a bit, might as well be called Unova's Revenge because it's the unholy lovechild of Keldeo and Latios

If I can find the WCoP turn count, I'll offer that up too, but data from a tournament when there were even more busted offensive mons will, if anything, exaggerate how fast-paced Gen 9 actually is.

I should have explicitly noted that it was an older tournament, though, you're right.

 

[SDK03]

I see you have a problem with the current OU. I'd like to offer you a solution: LOKIX
Wait wait hear me out I'm not kidding
So you mention in your analysis that defensive and emergency teras suck right? Well, Lokix gives no shits about any of that with Tinted Lens. On some pokemon, emergency Tera is good for Lokix, like Valiant or Dengo. Lokix actually benefits from Tera itself for its amazing First Impressions, but it's original typing is not always useless either to stay in and Throat Chop against Shadow Ball Dengo/Pult. (It also can survive a +2 5 supreme overlord Kingambit Sucker Punch from full and OHKO it back with Axe Kick!)
Furthermore, it solves a lot of problems you seem to have with Hyper Offense
Bax causing you problems at +2? Don't worry! You can revenge kill it as long as you've done a maximum of 23% damage to it! It can even switch in on +2 earthquake WITH STEALTH ROCK! Amazing!!!!
I see you thinking, but Shroom, don't pokemon like Gholdengo or Valiant completely blank you? and the answer is NO
Gholdengo can't switch in on Throat Chop and has to be wary of Sucker Punch while Valiant can switch into Band First Impression exactly once per game, as it 2HKOs.
"But, with this pokemon that excels against HO, surely you autolose to Stall, right?" WRONG! With Leech Life, you not only 2HKO the entirety of Stall teams sans Dozo and Corv, you can do it while regaining health to combat poison and stealth rocks! With Future Sight support or just using anything that can break Dozo, you basically 6-0 stall!
Unfortunately this isn't the most common playstyle so it's limited in its usefulness, but its still a nice trait to have for that 1 in 50 battles
You might think that the lack of overall hazard support messes Lokix up, since it's reliant on its Choice Band to do any real damage. That's true, but Leech Life very much helps with this, as it usually does enough that Rocky Helmet on stuff like Corv won't deal back all the damage, and that's one more stealth rock switchin for it.
Plus, hazards are a two-way street. The addition of hazards drastically improves potential targets for First Impression, like Baxcalibur or Enamorus (with Sucker Punch), Iron Moth, Sneasler, Wake, and Hatterene and just generally makes it harder to withstand the bug's attacks.
Seriously, people need to use lokix! I am not shitposting it is actually good!!!!

You know, since Lokix looks cool asf and having a near unresisted STAB First Impression AND Sucker Punch is a pretty nice niche despite being a somewhat “meh” choice, I decided to try and retool an older team I had on my teambuilder and replace Hoopa-U with Lokix on a whim. If Maushold can work on some teams with its slate of niche tools it has, Lokix could too.

Team + Basic Team Details

https://pokepast.es/f7fe6227c6f30b41

Zapdos and Dragapult help slow down opposing offensive threats with Paralysis (Zapdos also owns Corviknight/Dondozo and in Dragapult’s case, also cripples them with Will-O-Wisp + Hex), Great Tusk and Slowking-G switch into Valiant and Gholdengo (and Tusk sets Rocks and spams Knock Off ofc) and Zamazenta makes Kingambit and Baxcalibur’s lives harder to make it all the easier for Lokix to break important threats down.

There’s probably something better built for Lokix than this out there, but I thought it would slot decently well into this team since the defensive backbone is solid enough to allow for Lokix to hard switch out of bad matchups or after using First Impression.

You could also replace Zamazenta with Bulky Leftovers Tera Fairy Kingambit since Zamazenta is kind of mid I guess.

 

[ZannaBianca]

Your entire post was "Gen 9 is an HO hellhole and all the games are super fast." I showed that while Gen 9 is, indeed, producing short games, it's not the shortest.



If this is true of Gen 9, then it's true of Gen 5 (shorter mean and median) and arguably true of Gen 4 (shorter median).

If you want to dismiss the date as coming from one tournament, well that's true - but it's a high level tournament, and you'll need to produce some data to back up the idea that Gen 9 is uniquely short.

I honestly know very little about Gens earlier than 6 competitively, but I don't think it would be fair to compare the styles of gameplay between gens with and without team preview (also without considering the incredible power/speed creep or ease of set-up from then to now).

 

[artificialdeath]

If I can find the WCoP turn count, I'll offer that up too, but data from a tournament when there were even more busted offensive mons will, if anything, exaggerate how fast-paced Gen 9 actually is.

I should have explicitly noted that it was an older tournament, though, you're right.

That's fair, and it was in the back of my mind while I was writing that post. That being said, the ridiculous presence of hazards along with the offensive options brought by HOME (some of which have been adapted to tbf) still probably made WCoP games much shorter on average than most other generations. The mons that were allowed during SPL were incredibly busted but ones like the three I mentioned are not far behind them in being able to sweep most/all of a team if given one opportunity. Gambit especially is the closest to something like Annihilape but I guess it's kind of a moot point considering the suspect results.

 

[658Greninja]

anyone who hahas the above post only likes HO and thinks that adequate counterplay to Pokemon in a good metagame is "outspeed it bro"

because thats exactly how a lot of Pokemon in the tier are balanced honestly

there is literally no controversial take in this post except that it challenges the idea that a good metagame is one in which Hyper Offense dominates

which I'll ask those advocates one question: which prior OU has games that end in 15 turns

Gen 7 OU is also not an HO tier. Sure on ladder, but BO is absolutely King and Balance is still pretty good. There is a reason why Pursuit Tyranitar is amazing here, despite not having that many Ghosts or weak Psychics, it's because playing the longer game than Turn 20 is a big deal in most actual tournament matches.
Gen 6 OU had an HO streak but BO is still king. Gen 8? yeah.
Gen 5 OU still has tons of Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Gliscor wars and plenty of fiddling around offensive and defensive checks throughout many turns.
Gen 4 OU has things like Jirachi and Clefable Balance is still really good.
Gen 3 OU is fairly defensive with single Spike damage being a large part in making progress throughout long games, also being why Knock Off Hariyama is viable.
Gen 2 OU has a reputation and even in its offensive meta you are still sitting down for 50 turns.
Gen 1 OU has a lot of the game coming down to fishing Freezes, Paras and Sleep onto the rifht Pokemon to make progress.

Every other generation has Hyper Offense as not really the main archetype in the tier. Because a tier should never be balanced around HO in the same way that Stall shouldn't. Stall and Hyper Offense in most OUs are somewhat of matchup fishes, and that is the penalty in a good tier of running such a one-sided playstyle. The right Stallbreaker or the right defensive Pokemon really owns them in most tiers.

Now we have Gen 9 OU with 5/10 scores in both Balance and Fun, HO is very easily arguably the best teamstyle and frankly, that's terrible for game health. HO meta is not healthy.

BO is mostly just HO but quad+ HDB and it's just trying harder to not lose a Pokemon instantly to Gambit, Bax or Walking Wake.

Balance is literally the same team every time, and it's not even that good with the same team every time.

Stall is like a thing that still loses unless you vastly outskill your opponent, or the opponent teambuilt like shit.

Hyper Offense has like every tool it would ever need and the DLC is giving it a new one, Alolan Ninetales, which will make it even more broken.

Hyper Offense promotes shorter games with shorter plans and endgames, with less time to learn your opponent, more match-up fishing and less nuance and skill than your average Bulky Offense metagame.

Exactly.

I’ve talked about the unbalance and matchup fishy nature of Gen 9 and most of the replies are “lol u just wanna run lando on every team and play stall”

Lando-T being number 1 in a metagame is a bad thing but Gambit and Tusk being number 1 is nothing? Lando-T is number 1 in most metas because it is a versatile and incredibly splashable mon with tons of role compression that lets people be more flexible with team slots.

Gambit and Tusk are number 1 because 9 times out of 10 you have to run them on a team. Tusk and Cinder are the only OU-calibur hazard removal in the tier. Gambit is not only borderline broken, but it also has the strongest priority in the tier, because defensively checking Rain, HO, and Sun in this meta is not possible, and no other mon can also be a decent defensive presence, so you need Gambit.

Having HO be the best archetype in the tier is not an issue we have, its when the tier devolves into matchup fishing and spamming broken threats. The meta rn is either running HO or cteaming HO.

Basically Boots BO, Boots Stall, Sun, or Rain.

Even in an HO meta, what the fuck do you do to Wake?

“Oh I can just switch into Valiant and rkill it”

You better hope it doesn’t click Tera Water and drown it.

And how do you suppose you check BB Gren? The answer. Hope it misses Hydro and doesn’t Dpulse flinch your Bax.

Speaking of Bax, yeah that thing has Ice Shard, cause why tf not?

My point is even for HO teams, these threats are still broken and should be tested in Teal Mask assuming nothing changes in that meta.

DLC1 Spoilers

None of the new mons seem to have the typing to check Bax, Gambit, or Wake. Just kill me now.

 

[Magcargo]

If I can find the WCoP turn count, I'll offer that up too, but data from a tournament when there were even more busted offensive mons will, if anything, exaggerate how fast-paced Gen 9 actually is.

I should have explicitly noted that it was an older tournament, though, you're right.

IDK if it's a hot take, but teams with a good defensive backbone like Glowking + Corv feel stronger in this meta than previous ones because they have much stronger queen pieces that they enable like Band Bax and specs valiant. I've had games that have lasted a decent amount or turns this gen too (roughly 70) since the defensive pieces like Glowking and Ting-Lu are still about as strong as ever. I feel the notion that HO is only viable playstyle to be a bit reductive. This is still a gen with boots and regen so it's not like longevity is an issue despite the recovery PP nerf.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

@OU Council will you collectively (and hopefully) solve the meta in a few weeks?

DLC Round 1 is releasing soon and maybe then we can ban Kingambit and tera and all of that because rn, the metagame is kinda bland and still broken as ever

Here's to me and many others hoping the light at the end of the tunnel balances everything out

 

[Magcargo]

Exactly.

I’ve talked about the unbalance and matchup fishy nature of Gen 9 and most of the replies are “lol u just wanna run lando on every team and play stall”

Lando-T being number 1 in a metagame is a bad thing but Gambit and Tusk being number 1 is nothing? Lando-T is number 1 in most metas because it is a versatile and incredibly splashable mon with tons of role compression that lets people be more flexible with team slots.

Gambit and Tusk are number 1 because 9 times out of 10 you have to run them on a team. Tusk and Cinder are the only OU-calibur hazard removal in the tier. Gambit is not only borderline broken, but it also has the strongest priority in the tier, because defensively checking Rain, HO, and Sun in this meta is not possible, and no other mon can also be a decent defensive presence, so you need Gambit.

Having HO be the best archetype in the tier is not an issue we have, its when the tier devolves into matchup fishing and spamming broken threats. The meta rn is either running HO or cteaming HO.

Basically Boots BO, Boots Stall, Sun, or Rain.

Even in an HO meta, what the fuck do you do to Wake?

“Oh I can just switch into Valiant and rkill it”

You better hope it doesn’t click Tera Water and drown it.

And how do you suppose you check BB Gren? The answer. Hope it misses Hydro and doesn’t Dpulse flinch your Bax.

Speaking of Bax, yeah that thing has Ice Shard, cause why tf not?

My point is even for HO teams, these threats are still broken and should be tested in Teal Mask assuming nothing changes in that meta.

DLC1 Spoilers

None of the new mons seem to have the typing to check Bax, Gambit, or Wake. Just kill me now.

IDK man, I think our buddy 658Gren has some counterplay. Its best set typically runs LO which means that its wearing itself down when attacking into some key Pokemon, namely Toxapex and some Dragon-types / Bulky Waters. Making hard reads with it isn't neccisarily the most feasible since it is wearing itself down with Hazards and LO, meaning it will become RK food in no time. It does have Shuriken, but that's a very inconsistent and weak priority move that will be killing itself with Chip damage in no time. Most common Tera types being Water and Fairy does not help matters.

I will say that one of the bigger issues in the metagame is that the top 5-6 Pokemon are so drastically ahead of the curve, but TBH even with bans that likely won't be fixed. Ban Chien-Pao and Gambit and Bax will take its place. Most teams need a Fighting- and Dark-type anyways, so they will typically default to Tusk and Gambit because their stat spreads are so cracked & outclass 90% of availible options. I'd say variety is a bit better in the Home metagame becasue we have options that can actually compete with these Pokemon like Samurott-Hisui and Landorus-T, but in general, I still prefered the pre-home metagame because the power level wasn't as high and it felt like there was some more consistency with picks like Hatterene vs Hazard stack / utility mons. Also defensive Tusk was way better in the pre-Home meta. Nonetheless, this meta still has a good amount of variety currently, espicially in the top mons where Pokemon like Valiant and Ghold can run dozens of different sets and still be extremely effective. I think the meta's top 5 being so cracked is more of a feature than something we want to get rid of but I could be wrong there. Wouldn't mind seeing Bax / Gambit go down the line however.

 

[Ehmcee]

Noteworthy Usage Rises from July to August:

Rises:

- (#2, 46.04% -> #1, 46.83%)

While technically not a significant usage rise, the slight decrease in Great Tusk usage means Kingambit has finally overtaken the long standing king of gen 9 OU, Great Tusk has been #1 all the way since December of last year. His 9 month rule is now over however, showing off a new king of the current OU metagame.

- (#12, 13.447% -> #9, 17.417%)

Ting-Lu has seen an uptick in usage, people have started figuring out how to use this thing. Turns out spikes are broken currently, and turns out having 155 base HP and incredible defenses with a great defensive typing just boosts that usage. Ting-Lu alongside Dondozo have been the only real pokemon of the generation able to abuse Rest, a generally unreliable form of recovery, due to their massive defenses. Ruination is also a great midground a lot of the times, due to the multiple flying type pokemon running around in the current meta.

- (#16, 11.349% -> #12, 15.332%)

Initially seemed to have been somewhat overhyped due to needing weather, Walking Wake has proven to not be reliant on Sun to thrive. It's been rocking Choice Specs sets to great effect with the great mix of Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump. Sometimes opting to use Tera to boost it's power even further. It has quite few checks in the current meta, and it greatly appreciates the rise of more offensive structures, which it tears apart.
Speed Booster Energy while being great as ever

- (#23, 7.891% -> #14, 13.859%)

Almost doubling in usage in the past month, Greninja has cemented itself as an incredible pick on HO teams, Battle Bond has proven to just be such an incredible ability for it, boosting it's power and speed after a kill and most notably outspeeding the best form of speed control in the current metagame: Booster Iron Valiant. Resisting Kingambit's sucker punch is also another great boon of the typing, while Water/Dark has historically been great offensive coverage. It additionally has been seen on many rain teams, greatly boosting it's hydro pumps.


- (#30, 5.855% -> #16, 11.249%)

Iron Moth has seen a great surge in usage, it's proven as another great fit for HO teams, while almost always running speed boosting Booster Energy. Coupled with Fiery Dances boosts it can get out of hand quite quickly, it's been often using Substitute as a way of 1v1ing Kingambit as well as Psychic-less Slowking-G. Defensively it also greatly appreciates being resistant to Iron Valiant's stabs, while having a great specially defensive profile to boot. It's also proven to be a great fit on the upcoming Sun archetypes, which have been seen a great deal more.

- (#47, 2.895% -> #30, 6.342%)

Sun is back in a big way, Torkoal was able to grasp it's way back into OU from the pits of RU. Vert certainly contributed somewhat, spamming a reliable sun team that seemed to boost Sun usage tremendously during OLT, even getting a featured RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vert-sun.3726350/
Torkoal doesn't necessarely offer anything new to the table, it's partner however greatly thrive in this metagame that seems to favor HO.


Honorable Mention:

- (#138, 0.125% -> #41, 3.853%)

While not quite making it to OU, Vert's sun team has seen it surge in usage. Protosynthesis in Sun as well as a 125 bp Stab Grass move thanks to Loaded Dice deals a huge amount of damage, while having access to the great utility move Spore. It can prove to be tough to revenge kill as well, having Sucker Punch to deal with the likes of Dragapult.

 

[artificialdeath]

I will say that one of the bigger issues in the metagame is that the top 5-6 Pokemon are so drastically ahead of the curve, but TBH even with bans that likely won't be fixed. Ban Chien-Pao and Gambit and Bax will take its place. Most teams need a Fighting- and Dark-type anyways, so they will typically default to Tusk and Gambit because their stat spreads are so cracked & outclass 90% of availible options.

eh maybe I'm being short sighted but so far much of it would probably be fixed if gambit, bax, and valiant left. They're so far ahead of everything else in OU rn imo. I think people overestimated how broken pult would become had gambit left, as there is a decent amount of defensive counterplay to it still. Gholdengo is another thing but it's less ridiculous than the top 3 sweepers. Once you get to stuff like Wake, Sneasler, and Zama they can feel ridiculous at times but there's more defensive counterplay available. Spikes would still be kind of an issue but we kinda just have to hold out until DLC honestly, and not having to keep Tusk around to serve as an endgame gambit check would let it spin more often.

DLC is dropping in 11 days so all of this will change to some degree though.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Yo I had a crazy idea

Make Kingambit able to do the impossible and beat an endgame great tusk and iron valiant. Give me a second

 

[`ShadowTwo]

Regarding DLC 1: if certain new pokemon prove to be broken, I would like the council to continue to watch and possibly integrate into the Radar current threats that still remain broken, such as Kingambit or Baxcalibur.

DLC 1

There's absolutely nothing new check Baxcalibur, lmao the 3 Pokémons of legendary trio are getting smashed by Earthquake.

 

[AlexIGuessNotFound]

Yo I had a crazy idea

Make Kingambit able to do the impossible and beat an endgame great tusk and iron valiant. Give me a second

The Tera Fairy Tera Blast Kingambit in Question.