and bronzong, bronzong goes from being unviable to being double unviable
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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I think next action is to have another quick survey to see what should be focused on next. Maybe wait like 4 or 5 days then drop a survey for 2-3 days and use those results to see if anything comes out seemingly needing a QB or if just a suspect is needed.
Your point is utterly meaningless is the point lol. Actual practical data you get from trying stuff out is infinitely more useful then handwringing about BST and whatever label GF has thrown on a specific type of Pokemon to make them seem cooler for the casual audience. Also, no, before you try and pull it out, trying to argue that underperforming legendaries would actually become 'broken' if we just banned every single one you hate isn't actually a good argument and just further paints you as someone with little knowledge of how competitive Pokemon works
Yeah, I am more mixed on Ogerpon Wellspring now than I was earlier (where I felt it was a positive addition to the metagame). That power boost from its Mask makes it a bit much to deal with, especially since Tera and Rain massively augment its Water damage. Combined with good sustain with Horn Leech and a very cheap STAB move that has limited counterplay + some noticable hax potential and it is difficult to play around barring the use of defensive Teras and this Pokemon is very difficult to deal with in a metagame that mostly lacks defensive Grass- or Dragon-types. It does not help that this Pokemon forces a lot of annoying speed ties with itself in order to get off damage (which is very much prone to RNG based on crap like, which mon gets healing off of Horn Leech and other factors), which is not really a healthy element to have in the game imo. I think it may be more OP than Urshifu-RS (which tbf I personally did not find to be too OP, but is something to keep in mind).
All that said, it does bring a lot of good elements to the tier too. SD + dual STABs is what you need most of the time, which makes the last to slots pretty flexible. A fast encore is a fantastic tool vs many other threats like Kingambit, Manaphy, and multiple stored power users. Spikes is pretty cool utility too, and Synthesis is an awesome option to give this Pokemon more sustain to continue checking threats like Manaphy. I also really like how Ogerpon uses the Tera mechanic. Its Tera type is limited, which is a big weakness, and worsens its MU vs some key Pokemon that it can already have a hard time with like Rillaboom, but the special defense boost it gains combined with the Water immunity makes it a really awesome check to Pokemon like Greninja, Iron Moth, and Walking Wake, which we had very limited options to deal with before. I still think this Pokemon has a lot of good elements to offer to the tier, which is why I am still on the fence on it.
BM URSALUNA GOT BANNED??? Let's gooo, but what is in the metagame team
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 180-212 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 180-212 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
u can easily sub out that 2 layers of spikes or rocks for getting any amount of chip damage and thats on the max def set
You may want to check out a thread called SV OU DLC1 Viability List, since it seems to be still early for a ranking to be out yet. "Please explain the metagame to me" is kinda of a generic request
Yea, this has very much been a contributing factor to the absurd power creep with this Gen. Gen 7 has a large number as well, but not only did it introduce less it did it in what is still an over all stronger meta with the full dex at the time and move distribution not being curtailed. And even outside the legendary class Pokemon we've gotten tons of other Pokemon with above starter BST. Obviously BST isn't the end all be all, but when you're working with +550 points of stats it's just going to be easier to be powerful.
Also, a point that DaddyBuzzwole touched on in regards to the historical precedent that is Bloodmoon's ban is the player base now is much larger than it was in the past. This is something you see in other games too speaking from a MTG background. With more brains working at solving a meta things homogenize faster and since more people are playing more games the rate at which they get sick of seeing the same thing over and over gets faster too and the need for a more agile approach to bans increases as well.
keep in mind that if waterpon is banned, gliscor and manaphy become significantly better. anyone who wants either one banned should be in full support of a waterpon ban. even if you don't personally believe waterpon is problematic (which, in my opinion, it is), having it gone would make gliscor and manaphy even bigger problems than they already are, which would increase the likelihood of them getting banned
Yeah, I had a feeling Wellspring would be the sneaky-broken Ogerpon form that people initially brush off because of Hearthflame being so ridiculous, but because we’ve had time to play in a meta without the other form, people are realizing how potent Waterpon actually is.
https://pokepast.es/b1daea6037a9481c
was i cooking or should i be 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheated?
was i cooking or should i be 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheated?
Tbh Ribombee sees a lot of customization and variants, there are lots of annoying things it can do with that speed stat. Switcheroo with Specs is out there and extremely annoying, Stun Spore is a big one, Imprison for other Ribombee, etc
There's a few more Pokemon I think are problems right now, primarily Waterpon, Gholdengo, and Kingambit.
Waterpon is primarily broken for similar (but not identical) reasons to Firepon. It's just incredibly, incredibly difficult to wall consistently. As someone who primarily wants to play defensive team structures, Waterpon has very few good answers to it- it's pretty much tera grass Dozo that handles it, and that's it. But Dozo still struggles against teams with Waterpon because teams with Waterpon, coincidentally also tend to have 5 other party members, some of which Dondozo also has to deal with. Primarily, the issue I find is that, while Dozo can deal with just Waterpon fine, and it can deal with just Kingambit (more or less) fine, it definitely can't deal with both on the same team. Dozo can wall Waterpon for days, but realistically the Waterpon's just gonna click Knock Off and switch out, leaving Dozo bootsless and vulnerable to hazards. Once that happens, it's essentially game over- between Waterpon being able to consistently force Dozo in with its setup and difficult-to-wall-without-Tera STAB combination, and Kingambit being able to barrel through it once it's been weakened, Waterpon essentially forces defensive teams into a corner simply by existing on the enemy's team. Depending on the set, it's even able to be a threat itself with Trailblaze effectively preventing you from revenge killing it. It's just extremely difficult to deal with defensively, and not simple to deal with offensively.
Gholdengo is extremely constraining on the builder primarily because of its effect on the hazard game, as I'm sure we're all aware by this point. Ghost/Steel is a fantastic typing, and its ability is even better, so it's no surprise the mon is as good as it is. A lot of people will claim that Gholdengo isn't the issue with the hazards game right now, and while I agree to an extent- we do have somethng of a dearth of good removers, but I don't think that's the main issue. The removers we do have should, in theory, be sufficient enough to make hazards not as ridiculously suffocating as they are. Corv is the obvious one- it alone helps alleviate the issues with hazards significantly in a metagame without Dengo. Mandibuzz helps as well, but it worries about getting knocked or toxiced by Gliscor a bit more than Corviknight does. Still, it's an option, and far from a horrible one, since it gets both Knock Off and Toxic itself- Gliscor doesn't necessarily want to switch in on it if it doesn't already have its toxic orb up. Scizor and Talonflame are certainly more niche, but they're decent enough to be worth mentioning. Talonflame in particular, again, threatens pre-Toxic Orb Gliscor with a burn. I've heard the argument a few times that, even if Dengo gets banned, hstack teams are just going to run taunt to block defogs... which is honestly fine? Gliscor in particular is already struggling with 4MSS, it wanting to run Taunt as well will just make it even more limited in moveslots, meaning it's probably going to be running something like Protect/Spikes/Taunt/EQ, making it much more exploitable, especially by something like (hypothetically) Balloon Treads. It effectively has to choose whether or not it wants to be able to set up spikes, actually heal, knock off, taunt, or not be passive. Gholdengo prevents all of these Pokemon from doing much of anything as long as it exists in the metagame, let alone is actually on the enemy team or not. That isn't even to go over the mon itself. It gets basically anything it'd ever want in its moveset except boosting its speed and setting up hazards. It can cripple walls with trick, it can (honestly similar to Waterpon) force somewhat goofy teras like Tera Dark Blissey on very defensive teams with things like Psyshock, it's honestly quite ridiculous. I don't think it would be banworthy without Good as Gold, but on top of what it already does to the hazard game, it being potentially the best and most widespread wallbreaker is just the icing on the cake.
Kingambit, I won't even go over. We all know what it does and why it's insane. It's one thing when it's a utility/glue mon with 46% usage, it's a whole other issue when an extremely powerful win condition is on 46% of teams. The fact this thing hasn't left OU yet astounds me. Oh well, maybe after the meta settles again after DLC2 we'll deal with this ridiculous thing.
Waterpon is primarily broken for similar (but not identical) reasons to Firepon. It's just incredibly, incredibly difficult to wall consistently. As someone who primarily wants to play defensive team structures, Waterpon has very few good answers to it- it's pretty much tera grass Dozo that handles it, and that's it. But Dozo still struggles against teams with Waterpon because teams with Waterpon, coincidentally also tend to have 5 other party members, some of which Dondozo also has to deal with. Primarily, the issue I find is that, while Dozo can deal with just Waterpon fine, and it can deal with just Kingambit (more or less) fine, it definitely can't deal with both on the same team. Dozo can wall Waterpon for days, but realistically the Waterpon's just gonna click Knock Off and switch out, leaving Dozo bootsless and vulnerable to hazards. Once that happens, it's essentially game over- between Waterpon being able to consistently force Dozo in with its setup and difficult-to-wall-without-Tera STAB combination, and Kingambit being able to barrel through it once it's been weakened, Waterpon essentially forces defensive teams into a corner simply by existing on the enemy's team. Depending on the set, it's even able to be a threat itself with Trailblaze effectively preventing you from revenge killing it. It's just extremely difficult to deal with defensively, and not simple to deal with offensively.
Gholdengo is extremely constraining on the builder primarily because of its effect on the hazard game, as I'm sure we're all aware by this point. Ghost/Steel is a fantastic typing, and its ability is even better, so it's no surprise the mon is as good as it is. A lot of people will claim that Gholdengo isn't the issue with the hazards game right now, and while I agree to an extent- we do have somethng of a dearth of good removers, but I don't think that's the main issue. The removers we do have should, in theory, be sufficient enough to make hazards not as ridiculously suffocating as they are. Corv is the obvious one- it alone helps alleviate the issues with hazards significantly in a metagame without Dengo. Mandibuzz helps as well, but it worries about getting knocked or toxiced by Gliscor a bit more than Corviknight does. Still, it's an option, and far from a horrible one, since it gets both Knock Off and Toxic itself- Gliscor doesn't necessarily want to switch in on it if it doesn't already have its toxic orb up. Scizor and Talonflame are certainly more niche, but they're decent enough to be worth mentioning. Talonflame in particular, again, threatens pre-Toxic Orb Gliscor with a burn. I've heard the argument a few times that, even if Dengo gets banned, hstack teams are just going to run taunt to block defogs... which is honestly fine? Gliscor in particular is already struggling with 4MSS, it wanting to run Taunt as well will just make it even more limited in moveslots, meaning it's probably going to be running something like Protect/Spikes/Taunt/EQ, making it much more exploitable, especially by something like (hypothetically) Balloon Treads. It effectively has to choose whether or not it wants to be able to set up spikes, actually heal, knock off, taunt, or not be passive. Gholdengo prevents all of these Pokemon from doing much of anything as long as it exists in the metagame, let alone is actually on the enemy team or not. That isn't even to go over the mon itself. It gets basically anything it'd ever want in its moveset except boosting its speed and setting up hazards. It can cripple walls with trick, it can (honestly similar to Waterpon) force somewhat goofy teras like Tera Dark Blissey on very defensive teams with things like Psyshock, it's honestly quite ridiculous. I don't think it would be banworthy without Good as Gold, but on top of what it already does to the hazard game, it being potentially the best and most widespread wallbreaker is just the icing on the cake.
Kingambit, I won't even go over. We all know what it does and why it's insane. It's one thing when it's a utility/glue mon with 46% usage, it's a whole other issue when an extremely powerful win condition is on 46% of teams. The fact this thing hasn't left OU yet astounds me. Oh well, maybe after the meta settles again after DLC2 we'll deal with this ridiculous thing.
bludgeoning angel
Banned deucer.
Was this directed at me? Come on dude watch this Bronzong performance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1809546484-wb691bzeew6v93k4eifnzsq491lp0w4pw
If you think that's not based and poggers idek what you talking about
Like, people praise that players win with pachirisu in worlds in such a creative way but then say it is a disaster if you have to run shitmons to check stuff
Some recent Bronzong gaming, due to my little hiatus I couldn't test zong in bloodmoon meta but my friends did
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1954159703-1c9tlybr23tee7bl6ku9zmxbrlnu1ahpw
Sa problem with bronzong is big gambit uses it to get to plus 6 and murders ur team
bludgeoning angel
Banned deucer.
The gambit myth states that gambit was made due to the power of bronzong being unhinged, some authors state that the power that bronzong holds was too much for the OU metagame, hence, the heroe gambit was sent to stop this sinister evil bell
The battle between these immovable object and unstoppable force started, once both beasts had unleashed their full strength, Gambit eradicated Bronzong into oblivion. To this day Bronzong is held hostage in the Tartarus, the lands now known as RU
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Honestly I don’t think we should rush to rest either Waterpon, Manaphy, or what have you.
While BloodMoon was a decisive ban, there was a debate for a while whether it was the right move to suspect first. As time went on, it became more clear that Blood Moon was disgusting. Doing the suspect honestly felt like the right move. The moon was super centralizing and it was disgusting. The issue is, the meta now needs to develop a bit before we can tell if Waterpon or Manaphy are truly broken. Without having to prep hard for BM, we can see whether the meta becomes “stable”.
Ive seen some very ban happy posts, but we need to be realistic. We don’t have much more time for tests before The Indigo Disk. We have time for maybe one more test. We should let the meta settle so we can focus our energy in the most effective direction. Is the best focus looking at Gholdengo? Kingambit? Waterpon? Valiant? Manaphy? It’s way too soon to say what the best course of action is. We should let the meta settle for a few weeks so we can target the most productive test.
While BloodMoon was a decisive ban, there was a debate for a while whether it was the right move to suspect first. As time went on, it became more clear that Blood Moon was disgusting. Doing the suspect honestly felt like the right move. The moon was super centralizing and it was disgusting. The issue is, the meta now needs to develop a bit before we can tell if Waterpon or Manaphy are truly broken. Without having to prep hard for BM, we can see whether the meta becomes “stable”.
Ive seen some very ban happy posts, but we need to be realistic. We don’t have much more time for tests before The Indigo Disk. We have time for maybe one more test. We should let the meta settle so we can focus our energy in the most effective direction. Is the best focus looking at Gholdengo? Kingambit? Waterpon? Valiant? Manaphy? It’s way too soon to say what the best course of action is. We should let the meta settle for a few weeks so we can target the most productive test.
Just thought you should know that Bronzong is actually NU, seems weird that a Zong fan wouldn't know this
I don't think we should wait a few weeks given the speed I expect meta developments to happen, but I do think we should let some time pass so we can see how things change with the moon having set.
I agree with basically everything here, we just got rid of one of the tier's biggest problems, we should at the very least let the meta settle for a bit before we go after another one.
we have time for at least 3 more tests, i think. it's very likely that multiple mons will get high enough support on the next survey that we can have multiple suspects in relatively quick succession
bludgeoning angel
Banned deucer.
This made me more sad, thanks
Three seems ambitious. Given 10 days for a suspect and probably a week to see how the meta develops after we'll be in mid November after the second test concludes and I don't think we'll get another once the DLC is less than a month away and at that point it probably will be. At the very least we should have the release date by then.
The stuff you'd expect ofc (Moonblast, W E B, Stun Spore, U-Turn, maybe QD if you're feeling like trolling), but my favorite tech on ribombee is Psychic. It allows it to beat Glimm (esp since mortal spin doesn't psn with shield dust and sludge wave has no chance to) and threatens relevant poisons like Iron Moth and Sneasler to prevent them from leading, setting up, and winning the game
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People always sat on Ribombee IMO, so it's good to see people jumping on it as a genuinely useful addition to teams.
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