Once again the pro Tera minority's only argument is "please stop talking about this guys"
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Once again the pro Tera minority's only argument is "please stop talking about this guys"
ou literally did not exist during gen 1. the modern tiering system was developed sometime during gen 3. there was no "gen 1 ou" or "gen 2 ou" until long after the lifespan of those games ended, so counting them as the "worst generation" doesn't really make sense. from gen 3 onwards, what do you consider the worst/least balanced ou meta?
you mean the pro-tera 90% majority? very few people supported a full ban. you are in the minority, it just happens to be a very loud one. i'm merely suggesting that you stop whining and play the tier like an adult until the next tera discussion thread opens up because no matter how many times you post it won't change the council's plan to wait until dlc2 to test the mechanic
what is this trend of calling any dnb result a minority vote. does it make yall feel better or something. I think gambit is broken and im coming around on pro tera ban a lot more but acting like 40%+ of the player base is the same as some weirdo 5% elite is massive copium.
also tera arguments are rarely anything new, interesting or productive and its just people building strawmans vs each other, and this thread is already filled w that. we're getting tera looked out in two months, do we really need to do this
"minority" is 40% that support nothing happening at all and a majority of 60% that only want minor restrictions?
ok but the gambit suspect was bullshit and everyone knows it. even the dnb voters know it. go ask any of them what they'd vote if they had the chance to do it again, i guarantee you that almost all of them would change their vote if they could
this is not the first nor the last time a suspect like this will be met with regret from voters, its inevitable as this is a game with many moving parts, preconcieved notions and expectations of future changes. its not bullshit as much as just the nature of how the meta works here, and also a lesson on voting for the current meta and not imaginary ones lol. it still didnt meet threshold, and we cant assume it would even if we counted the regrets, cest la vie. We move on
say whatever you want guys but i really want flutter mane back in OU for first day of DLC2 i just love her designwise, look at her! she's just a silly mean lil girl from the caveman times!
to be something of substance to the discussion and to my post: what do you guys feel is the best mon in the tier right now? and lets discuss it without saying what we would ban if we could. i mean, whats going to be the GSC snorlax or ADV ttar of Gen 9? it was shaping up to be Tusk, but I feel like this is going to be Gliscor's generation. the splashability and the direction it pushes games into is just unmatched at this point
to be something of substance to the discussion and to my post: what do you guys feel is the best mon in the tier right now? and lets discuss it without saying what we would ban if we could. i mean, whats going to be the GSC snorlax or ADV ttar of Gen 9? it was shaping up to be Tusk, but I feel like this is going to be Gliscor's generation. the splashability and the direction it pushes games into is just unmatched at this point
terrible take, gen 1 is bugged but
mew and mewtwo are banned because there are way too strong for ou
there are clause and mods like freeze clause and bugged moves like fly and dig are banned
rby on showdown is a 100% improved version over real game on gb
not true and with tauros u constantly need to guess/predict bslam/hbeam/blizzard, if u guess wrong u are locked into hbeam recharge turn
if tauros is able to clean means u or your opponent had a game plan in mind to put everything into bslam or hbeam range, totally different from the reverse sweep of gambit thanks to supreme memelord and tera
all psychic except the two banned are perfectly fine and manageable, nowhere the level of oger flame or bax
u should really learn a metagame before talking about it
Chat shit about rby ou all you want, the tier's games aren't decided by matchup fishing first and player skill second
Granted, yes, the games are more infested with rng bullshit like the way crit rates work and how often freeze and sleep is a factor, but outside of the infamous 1/256 bug a lot of rby play is about playing around the rng bullshit, it sort of gives the tier it's own identity in it's own fucked up kind of way
The tier is centralised, janky, and an rng infested mess, no matter how much I personally enjoy it won't change that, but I still end up enjoying it more than gen 9 ou because every game I play in it feels like I have a chance, and not that I lose because they brought a specific set or specific mon, and I basically never lose because I guessed wrong on one 50/50 - which are all staple features of the current sv metagame.
Granted, yes, the games are more infested with rng bullshit like the way crit rates work and how often freeze and sleep is a factor, but outside of the infamous 1/256 bug a lot of rby play is about playing around the rng bullshit, it sort of gives the tier it's own identity in it's own fucked up kind of way
The tier is centralised, janky, and an rng infested mess, no matter how much I personally enjoy it won't change that, but I still end up enjoying it more than gen 9 ou because every game I play in it feels like I have a chance, and not that I lose because they brought a specific set or specific mon, and I basically never lose because I guessed wrong on one 50/50 - which are all staple features of the current sv metagame.
RBY being "centralized" is a good thing because you can plan and prepare and learn how to play your team against every relevant threat.
There are so many mons and items and moves in Gen 9 that, no matter how well you build your team or prepare, there is always some bullshit set on some rarely used mon (or a rarely used set/item on a common mon) that someone can come up with that just hard counters you.
All that said: I think Kingambit -> Tauros is a fine comparison. Having one mon that is the absolute best at cleaning up at the end of the game is totally fine, IMO. Tauros did it in gen 1, Kingambit can do it in gen 9.
There are so many mons and items and moves in Gen 9 that, no matter how well you build your team or prepare, there is always some bullshit set on some rarely used mon (or a rarely used set/item on a common mon) that someone can come up with that just hard counters you.
All that said: I think Kingambit -> Tauros is a fine comparison. Having one mon that is the absolute best at cleaning up at the end of the game is totally fine, IMO. Tauros did it in gen 1, Kingambit can do it in gen 9.
Putting everything into range for cleaning with tauros is a little different than send your team to die, sd + tera with gambit and okho everythin
Also the risk of hbeam and being locked is a lot more different than failing a sucker punch and still probably live the hit because gambit is so bulky. Spunch against some pokemon is a 100% hit since not everyone has status move, so u can't really guess. Both are very weak to status, but if a paralyzed tauros is a dead tauros a burned gambit against a passive/stall team with sd can still get some kills.
Reverse sweeping with tauros is possible, u just need to crit (21.48% according to smogon, crit rate on rby is based on speed) every pokemon left, a lot more unlikely to happen
Also the risk of hbeam and being locked is a lot more different than failing a sucker punch and still probably live the hit because gambit is so bulky. Spunch against some pokemon is a 100% hit since not everyone has status move, so u can't really guess. Both are very weak to status, but if a paralyzed tauros is a dead tauros a burned gambit against a passive/stall team with sd can still get some kills.
Reverse sweeping with tauros is possible, u just need to crit (21.48% according to smogon, crit rate on rby is based on speed) every pokemon left, a lot more unlikely to happen
The problem with gen 9's centralisation is that it isn't a rare set on a common mon or common set on a rare mon that will shaft you - it's just a good ass set on a good ass mon that can just win by existing on the opposing team (even if it needs to sacrifice tera for it)
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 331-390 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't fucking know man it's pretty damn close
tauros is 100% a problem in gen 1 and would very likely be suspected under current tiering philosophy, it's just that no one is ever going to bother trying to balance gen 1 because the game is fundamentally broken
You missed my point. Gen 9 is NOT centralized. There are too many mons/items/sets.
There is no fix for this. It's a result of 9 generations.
Now do Iron Valiant.
No, it's perfectly fine. Tauros doesn't win 1v1 against most mons. Alakazam, Starmie, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Slowbro, Zapdos, Jolteon - all mons that are "worse" will just straight up beat Tauros more often than not in a 1v1 scenario.
What Tauros does is he cleans up weakened teams. Same as Kingambit.
Fairy/Flying gambit tanks whatever ival will throw at it by a p decent margin it doesn't even need to sucker
Also gen 9 is centralised: it's just centralised around like 80 different things that all require their own dedicated checks so it becomes impossible to do that and more worth it to just run ho as has been the case for p much the entire gen outside of a few spells during pre-home and pre-dlc1.
Yes, if you get +2 Kingambit AND run iron head AND burn tera on the turn that Iron Valiant attacks you AND Iron Valiant does not use tera, then you can beat it with Kingambit. That's a pretty narrow set of circumstances.
...you don't understand the meaning of the word centralized, do you?
Gambit has a much lower ceiling to reverse sweep through a team though. With Tauros you have to make sure that the enemy team is weakened enough that it can body slam/hyper beam through stuff without getting para'd or just outright killed. Gambit with 4-5 SOs, Tera, and Sucker Punch can take out intact teams with mons close to full health, even things that theoretically check it (although, again, this is more reason to ban tera), and it doesn't fear status as much as Tauros does; it can either Tera Fire or just SD through the burn if given tthe chance.
if each top tier threat didn't require checks either specific to them, or just warped building around them as a whole I wouldn't be calling them centralising
lando-t in ss is a top tier mon, but is the opposite of centralising, I wouldn't really call melmetal overcentralising either despite its excellence in the tier
that is not narrow at all it doesn't need to tera on the same turn as ival attacks and it doesn't even fucking need iron head, the only coverage move which gambit can't run to break through ival is low kick - which isn't saying much when iron head and tera blast fairy are both excellent options in the same slot
and before you say that valiant can tera out of the fairy weakness
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Normal Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 484-570 (167.4 - 197.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
it cannot
No, it doesn't. Kingambit pretty much needs 4-5 team members dead AND it has to set up a swords dance (often using tera to set up that swords dance) AND THEN you have to hope the other guy doesn't have substitute or encore on faster mons.
Gen 1 Tauros is much more straightforward in comparison. Click body slam and hyper beam after the enemy team is softened up, gg.
Bruh even with hyperbole out MY ass that's not centralizing. Nowhere near it. That's just a normal ass tier, with a power level too high for some to handle, which is perfectly fine. If it wasn't, I don't think UU and below would be a thing.
Now, it sounds to me, and just to me as my opinion (gotta emphasize that these days what went wrong with the world?), but I think you want the team, the hypothetical perfect one that beats everything and literally flowcharts its way to top 50 on the leaderboard. I do too, genuinely. 6 mons that bust balls consistently enough to guarantee results? Sign me the fuck up.
However, I doubt that will ever happen anywhere but maybe Gen 1 and 2 OU. We just have too many things running around. After all, there's like 12-15 A or above rank mons in just the last viability ranking, iirc. So, shits "centralized" around the top 15, aka a normal metagame.
Genuinely, isn't this just the average OU, regardless of generation? You pack shit for Lando, you pack shit for Garchomp, Lati@s, Valiant, Heatran (rip my boy), Tyranitar, you name it you need a response for it. You've got six mons, make em count.
It is really rich that the example of Manaphy setting up on Rillaboom thanks to the cheat button is met with a calculation of Rillaboom vs a completely different Pokémon in a different situation. The Tera PR Defense team of strawmen is hard at work.
Thank you. It is not the centralization that is problematic though. Lando was centralizing in Gen 7 and 8. No problem. For me it’s how dynamic the cheat button is. Kingambit just does not give a F about Great Tusk. It gets to choose which turn to make an otherwise hard check into a liability. Same is true for all set up sweepers right now. The suspects are just the biggest beneficiaries of the cheat button.
I don’t think Gholdengo is breaking the tier. But even in his example, how can we act like fat Gholdengo walling Great Tusk thanks to cheat button has nothing to do with the problem?
The checks are all different in sv for the most part - out of the mons you listed (ignoring ival) ferrothorn + heatran can at least go into them quite comfortably in spite of their lack of recovery, which slowbro + av torn - there you go these mons are at the very least decent at being able to somewhat tank hits from most of their respective metagames.
When it comes to checking what few mons in sv ou can actually be checked defensively though (limiting everything mentioned here to ou for my own sanity and so that people don't respond to me saying that garchomp/heatran are bad now and shouldn't be listed as a viable threat/check):
-Gliscor for sneasler
-Dondozo for roaring moon and offensive tusk
-Cinderace for aurora veil teams
-Ting lu for ghold and iron moth
-Zapdos/Corv for rillaboom
-Great tusk for gambit
-Hopes and fucking prayers for ogerpon-w
-Your own ghold for ival
Assuming that this is on a balance team, you'd need to fit this and some level of offensive presence at the same time, and none of this list factors in tera, and I also probably forgot some threats as well because mons that put immense pressure on defensive teams are a dime a dozen at this point.
Every single threat listed is ranked as good or above on the current vr (although it's outdated as it currently still contains ursaluna, I don't think that will change much)
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