Sneasler has been broken since it was added, Rillaboom becoming actually good didn't help tho
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Ngl, I think Gambit is high key needed cause it at least provides valid defensive utility (espically with Tera). We are down bad for Ghost Resist and Garg, while good, just doesn't feel like enough.
the only reason why gambits’ high Def utility is needed is due to the high amount of OP pokemon. Gambit is just a reliable endgame counter, especially when it’s priority can go all the way to 105 base power before STAB and items are factored in.
Kingambit resists Gholdengo's stab, and Gholdengo is immune to Sneasler's stab.
Broken checks broken checks broken.
Also I played some OU games earlier today, and yeah I've flipped on my stance. Sneasler is just a pain to deal with. Like it's just really easy to set up thanks to Rillaboom, but it doesn't have to be partnered with Rilla in order to be good. It has strong coverage, diverse movepool and sets, and some hax as a treat on top if you high roll with Dire Claw. I still stand by my absolute unfaltering loathing of
and 
, but I can totally now see that 
is a pretty substantial problem as well.Not sure about that weird legendary ludicolo (Ogerpon-Whatever), but after these three are out of the way (assuming Gliscor is booted), then maybe we can see where the dust settles.
Ppl who still think Kingambit is broken, can I ask, like, what teams are you running? Lately every game I've played vs Gambit my takeaway has been "people still want this banned?" Are you just out here Encoreless, Wispless, no Tusk or Zama, no Unaware, no blanket physdef checks like Mandibuzz, no planning for when it's clearly going to be the last Mon? Doesn't make sense to me tbh. Like every once in a while I lose to it but it feels like my fault whenever I do (or it's because of a fucking dire claw proc earlier in the game)
We're quite some time into the meta, and everyone has kinda got used to overprepare for it. If one's teams matchup so many months into the meta is still shit into Kingambit it means there is a severe lack in teambuilding, but that doesn't mean it isn't busted.
For instance, let's imagine in a dark timeline both Gliscor and Gholdengo survive their suspects - everyone will be running a bunch of dedicated answers to the both of them. Losing to the duo will mean you fucked up during either the planning or playing stage as the meta settles. Still broken.
Broken checks broken isnt a good argument imo. They should all go away imo. Gambit, Gliscor, Gholdengo, Sneasler... Probably even Ogerpon and manaphy need to go.
Lets see the answer you have offered to Gambit ok?
Encore -> Relies on either predicting or sacking something most of the time, helps against Gambit but is far from a reliable answer on its own. Very favored in this meta due to all the set up but it still can be hard to slot in some mons.
Wisp -> In many instances Gambit can just keep SD and not really care much about the burn, if you are burning instead of switching to something more reliable it might be you dont have anything better.
Tusks -> Works unless tera fairy and flying, in wich most cases it just gets destroyed. It gets worn down over the curse of the game kinda easily, so late game, when gambit shines it can be relatively easy to kill.
Zamazenta -> Similar to tusks, quite reliable but gets destroyed by tera fairy and flying.
Unaware -> Clodsire must be max def to stand a chance and even then gets 2hko by 5 allies fainted. Skeledirge also gets OHKO/2HKO depeding on set unless tera water. Only reliable unaware is Dondozo.
Mandibuzz also gets destroyed by tera and must be healthy to survive +2 iron heads.
Only truly reliable answer there is Dondozo that hates hazards and struggles against many of the main meta threats.
Gambit can with very little effort and bit of luck in the mind games turns games around, having some kind of counterplay doesnt mean its not broken.
I don't really think the preparation is unreasonable though, Encore, Will-o-Wisp, Unaware, even Substitute are all broadly applicable and have plenty of utility beyond the Kingambit matchup, even serving as wincons on HO or Hex Balance teams. You don't even necessarily need these techs to win if you trade Teras with it. We saw the same thing with Garg when people realized there's plenty you can do to prepare for it beyond Shit Cloak. Having to prep for a Pokémon in the builder doesn't make it a problem, that's kind of just what teambuilding is; you build around relevant threats
I know I've mostly been giving Sneasler a 2 on surveys, but I've changed my mind after playing more on the ladder and watching matches, and for the next survey, I will be giving it a 5 alongside Gholdengo. I hope we can quickban 1 of Gholdengo and Sneasler and suspect the other after Gliscor's ban.
One of my largest gripes with Gambit is something I feel is largely understated: its bulk. 100/125/85 is GOOD. It's such to the point that even strong, STAB super effective attacks aren't guaranteed to OHKO. Super effective attacks need to either be boosted, x4 effective or just have stupidly high basepowers coming off of already high stats. Its frequent use of Tera means the second option is more often than not, never actually seen in play. Playing Sucker Punch mindgames with it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't generally require two or more attacks to take it down.
and yet you call for a ban of stored power instead of just building around it. or does "just build around it bro" only apply to things you like?
??? the team I was using in the particular game I referenced had haze Toxapex & tera dark Blissey, but I popped my tera on the latter vs hatterene and therefore Pex was ohko'd after one single shell smash, nice one liner btw, any comment on the Kingambit question?
I'm of the opinion that we just got used to it, so it kind of gives the illusion that it is okay now. The thing is: it is just Bisharp after taking horse steriods (which was strong enough to be OU-Viable last gen), so its counterplay isn't anything particularly unconventional.
Now, even applying counterplay, you need multiple dedicated checks to survive and you still get stuck in "50-50s" that favour the bastard because it is strong. Like, STUPID STRONG, to the point of just pushing through mistakes and would-be checks. It can take SE hits, it can Tera to avoid SEs, it can one-shot non-bulky dark resists with priority at 5 allies fainted at +0, in fact, it hits so hard at +0 that very few mons switch in comfortably. Pretty much nothing except Unaware can take a hit after a SD. It hits so incredibly hard that even through Unaware there are not many mons that will take its hits, and Unawaremons specifically are not that easy to randomly slot onto teams.
135 base attack is sky high, and Supreme Overlord rewards misplays.
To make it clear, imagine if Salamence had a free Choice Band boost just for being put in a losing position. Now take away its speed, and give it priority. That is how offensively strong it is. It is so strong that it very frequently chooses non-offensive items like Lum Berry to further narrow down the range of possible answers.
100/120/80 bulk is strong. Like, VERY strong on a mon that hits that hard. Now make it more difficult to deal damage to it because it is one of the best Tera abusers in the game, meaning you are playing dice with the type chart when it gets on the field. You may answer "hey, he has to Tera, that is opportunity cost" which I agree, but the benefit is so incredibly high on this particular pokemon that you bet your ass it will - assuming the player has put any thought into it when teambuilding.
Further, it has very plausible answers to pretty much any counters you have mentioned. Unless you outplay the other player (and please let us assume that both players are at a similar level for this thought exercise), Encore is a 50-50, because remember pretty much anything with it (I think Dragonite being the exception) can be oneshot at +0 by its STABs switching. Will-o-wisp is great! But you better hope to god it is not Lum Berry, and even then it is bulky enough to take it and SD to bring its attack back to effective +0. If you have an Unaware wall, you better double hope to god you can slot Curse Dondozo in. Other Unaware walls pray it doesn't have SE on them! Tusks are barely a check anymore since they get blasted by the popular Tera Fairy and Tera Flying (unless you get a NASTY predict that it will grow pidove wings specifically). Zamazenta suffers a similar fate.
We are getting used to Gambit and that makes it look like it is kinda okay, but it is still insanely strong, and unless you overplan into it and/or get a nasty outplay in it WILL force the game into guessing games that work like the following: hey, I'll throw random sucker punches and if you try and deal damage at the wrong time YOU DIE. If you don't try dealing damage at the wrong time, YOU DIE. If you try switching in while while I don't Sucker Punch, YOU DIE. If you try Encoring and I haven't specifically used a SD or Sucker Punch last turn, and I don't Sucker Punch, YOU DIE. If you outplay me and can't oneshot my 100/120/80 bulk random Tera typing (which I could very well have invested in because I have priority), YOU DIE. If you are Curse Dondozo or any obscure counters... hey congrats.
I mean, of course I'm being nitpicky but I hope you understand where I'm coming from, and apologies if my formatting is shit - it's past midnight over here. Cheers
you know what, i'm gonna come out and say it: no intelligent, reasonable person can seriously consider gambit healthy for the tier. yes, you can technically "build around it" in the same way you can build around anything; yes, it can be expected that gambit will come out in the endgame and try to set up; no, none of that makes it ok to have around. it's a stupid fucking mon and if you want to know why you can go ahead and read one of the other ten million posts people have made about it because there's more evidence against gambit than there was against capone
"getting used to [a Pokémon] and it seeming ok now" is kind of just what fitting into a metagame is
These dedicated checks include Pokémon like Great Tusk, Clefable, Zamazenta, and Gliscor, which are extremely splashable and have very broad applications
Switching into a flame body Mon isn't a 50/50 and neither is clicking Iron Defense with Mandibuzz, and Encore and Substitute also alleviate any and all 50/50s
you're right, the Kingambit user will almost always save the Tera for Kingambit. However if you play the game with this in mind, you too can save your Tera for Kingambit. This is fine - a Tera for Tera is always a good trade. If you Tera a setup sweeper that can't touch Kingambit and get rid of the rest of the team you can't really complain "kingambit stole my win!" Because you looked at it in the team preview, thought, "it's going to Tera fairy or flying at the end," and consciously chose not to plan for that
This thing is slow as a snail. If you wisp it and it spends another turn swords dancing congratulations you have won that interaction
I disagree that unaware is difficult to slot into a team, in fact I would argue on balance and stall that slotting in an unaware (or in stalls case, consider two!) is almost necessary
I don't agree that Supreme Overlord necessarily rewards misplays because sacking Pokémon is key in hyper offense
What are you even talking about "better hope it's curse Dozo" Dozo doesn't need curse to win the 1v1 and that set is low key ass
Encore is not even close to a 50/50 because Clefable and multiple other encore users outspeed, and sucker happens (and does 0 damage) right before encore if they make the mistake of clicking it
All of these hypotheticals are you giving it free turns, clicking buttons without anticipating Tera, and not really considering what move is most advantageous for gambit to click, which by the time it actually becomes a "50/50" you usually have already lost
If no intelligent person could consider gambit healthy for the tier (which is to say not broken) then post Elo and explain why you are so much more intelligent than the qualified playerbase who voted it almost a full integer lower than the unqualified playerbase on the tiering survey as well as the 45% of reqs obtainers (a task you did not achieve) who voted no ban in a meta where kingambit was much better than it is now
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All in all, my previous post was my full and pure thought on the subject. If nothing there hit you as more than "free turns" then yeah this interaction has ended in no resolution
Also want to add that Kingambit is kept in check by the glue of the tier, the solution to every broken Mon, GholdenGOAT, by forcing Kingambit out early so it's chipped for endgame
Alternatively, this could be phrased as "Kingambit is so broken that it has to be forced out early by Gholdengo, another extremely broken mon".
Also, there are other options for dealing with Gholdengo that can be run alongside Kingambit. You can still totally just keep Gambit in the back for the reverse 6-0.
Moving this response to the discussion thread as suspect thread is now closed
I think you're jumbling up numbers here. When you state Gliscor having 16 Protects, 16 Spikes, 16 Knocks, and 8 Toxics, you are taking Pressure into account, but when you say Iron Defense works just fine, how are you hitting 48 pp? ID only has 24 pp, you are theoretically taking away 48 Gliscor pp but since you've already taken Pressure into account while listing numbers, you're just confusing us now.
Of course, this situation is not going to happen very much to begin with, because Gliscor does not need to stay in and waste all its pp. If you are going to sit there and click ID/Defog, Clefable and Gliscor can switch back and forth and just wait it out. You state that "it needs to switch out, which you can as well, no big deal" BUT THIS IS WRONG! Clefable and Gliscor can switch back and forth while taking ZERO net damage from hazards, but Corv+whatever is taking at least 12.5% Rocks damage by switching back and forth. Once again, this is a losing position for you.
Corv's attacks are sealed up due to Clefable's Sticky Barb, Corv's item gets Knocked, and it cannot infinitely switch under max layers without an item the same way Gliscor+Clefable can. Not to mention, if you mispredict and switch out Corv as Gliscor clicks Knock Off, that is more progress made by the Gliscor team.
This automatic assumption of Gliscor protecting each other turn can also be taken advantage of, you do still need to predict. Gliscor players are not just mindless robots who spam protect lol.
Even if you only toxic a key threat and get up a spike vs offense, Gliscor has often done its job and can leave the heavy duty walling to its more passive teammates. They can make progress they otherwise couldn't have because of what Gliscor did.
Lots of BOs ran this tech, and HO still has options to deny turn 1 CE like maushold, Mortal Spin Glimmora, etc.
A lot of this is assuming Gliscor is staying in 1v1 to Knock Off mons like Kingambit and Great Tusk, this isn't what's going to happen in the hands of a good player. They will get up a spike/knock as you switch in, and then go into Mandibuzz/Dondozo etc and box out your set up. Tusk is not getting past Mandi in this scenario unless it's bulk up booster attack or it gets crits.
It's not as bad as you're making it out to be, because Gliscor is not your heatran/Kingambit answer to begin with when you build around knock/tox/protect/spikes. These steel types are coming in, taking hazards, and getting chipped, and if your team is built well, it will not fall to these mons just bc they come in "for free" on Gliscor once or twice.
Not Trick+Sticky Barb btw, Hatt will eat Gliscor's Knock Off and then use contact moves like Draining Kiss/Nuzzle as Clefable switches in, that is enough to pass the Sticky Barb. Clefable does not need to spend a turn or commit a moveslot to Trick, just to be clear. Extremely easy to cripple Hatt in this case.
As stated multiple times, these steel types are getting chipped by spikes, knock, etc and are losing long term vs a well built gliscor team.
When I said defog roost ID on corv, I did not mean all of those moves on the same set, because that is quite unviable just to be clear. Defog/roost/ID on Corv means you must either drop Body Press or U-turn, and dropping either is usually a horrible idea. So off the bat this situation is quite unrealistic.
I think you're jumbling up numbers here. When you state Gliscor having 16 Protects, 16 Spikes, 16 Knocks, and 8 Toxics, you are taking Pressure into account, but when you say Iron Defense works just fine, how are you hitting 48 pp? ID only has 24 pp, you are theoretically taking away 48 Gliscor pp but since you've already taken Pressure into account while listing numbers, you're just confusing us now.
Of course, this situation is not going to happen very much to begin with, because Gliscor does not need to stay in and waste all its pp. If you are going to sit there and click ID/Defog, Clefable and Gliscor can switch back and forth and just wait it out. You state that "it needs to switch out, which you can as well, no big deal" BUT THIS IS WRONG! Clefable and Gliscor can switch back and forth while taking ZERO net damage from hazards, but Corv+whatever is taking at least 12.5% Rocks damage by switching back and forth. Once again, this is a losing position for you.
Corv's attacks are sealed up due to Clefable's Sticky Barb, Corv's item gets Knocked, and it cannot infinitely switch under max layers without an item the same way Gliscor+Clefable can. Not to mention, if you mispredict and switch out Corv as Gliscor clicks Knock Off, that is more progress made by the Gliscor team.
The subtle implication here is the acceptance that all slow teams need Gliscor now. This is exactly we should ban this mon, because it's either offense or Gliscor fat if you want to succeed consistently now.
Tusk+Ace used to be able to support balance and BO, the fact that these teams must now be fast paced enough to let Great Tusk get Toxic'd is horrifically limiting, whether you realize it or not.
This automatic assumption of Gliscor protecting each other turn can also be taken advantage of, you do still need to predict. Gliscor players are not just mindless robots who spam protect lol.
Gliscor teams can take those magma storms, taunts, and NP gholdengos, that's the way they're built, so that you beat those balloon steel types long term with hazards, not fold to them immediately.
Why is it surprising to use Tera on your wallbreaker when fighting fat? Is it also shocking to tera dragon ur cb bax?? Or tera water ur specs proto SpA WW under sun? You use hammy with pivots like U-turn Zapdos which force in mons like Clodsire, you get your free turns and click Knock Off, get Spikes up, and then Tera Water to Aqua Cutter through whatever is tanking your knocks. There are many lines for progress and idk where the confusion is.
So...is Gliscor a threat to offense or not? In one paragraph you are telling me the mon with 90/80/65 bulk, 85 speed, and 5 weaknesses is a threat to offense teams more than Gliscor (I disagree), and in the next paragraph you are telling me offensive teams matchup well vs Gliscor??
Even if you only toxic a key threat and get up a spike vs offense, Gliscor has often done its job and can leave the heavy duty walling to its more passive teammates. They can make progress they otherwise couldn't have because of what Gliscor did.
So after hatt eats a barb, my gliscor gets to protect and gain 12.5% health as your hatterene comes in and loses 12.5% health. This is somehow a bad thing and I'm not freely forcing progress? I really fail to see how.
I went to watch a OU game after leaving this thread and this happened
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1988176520
I'll get some sleep
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1988176520
I'll get some sleep
turns out the answer is "pretty decently", except for the pawmot
i think i'll get some sleep as well. if i wake up to gliscor's smiling face i'm gonna be pissed
Hawlucha has 92 attack btw
there are more reasons why gholdengo has its hand firmly wrapped around the tier than gliscors trolling, its because of how hard getting ribombee’s webs of the field is, three layers of spikes that you can’t remove stealing 25% of your health is not at all a ignorable thing but not being to outspeed ogerpon wellspring or booster energy special attack iron moth, especially since one of only pokemon that can actually wall wellspring isn’t in the game is even more devasting, you could even say gholdengo broke ribombee
wait how is gholdengo a gambit check? also if it is gholdengo is a plague is to the tier and the survey results show it
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Banning Ghold feels like a band-aid solution for the format. It does work, but just a bit.
Defogging would be easier, but considering the fact that the only splashable defogger in OU is Corv, Spikes is still gonna be insane.
Levitate GWeezing can also be considered but it doesn't have the same recovery and pivoting value like Corv, so it is much less desired after Ghold ban.
banning gholdengo is more than a band-aid solution, sticky web and to a lesser extent spikes won’t be so seemly unremovable once the G duo are banned and thus, hazard removal will actually succeed at what its supposed to do, sticky web can find ways to work around tusk just like any other playstyle and if the enemy team doesn’t have tusk then its a uphill battle
i admit that sneasler is infact broken, but i really don’t want it being suspected before the cheese king considering its the main reason ribombee is far more than a niche option in the current metagame
They wouldn't be unremovable, but given Corv's passivity and how easy it is to set Spikes again, it's just slightly less problematic.
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