reading this whole post at once is giving me an aneurysm, so i'll just address the worst part of it: even if gholdengo were dumb enough to ever stay in on heatran, it's immune to both taunt and trapping
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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And let's not forget, Ghod simply existing in this meta chokeholds removal, whether it appears in a game or not. Chances are that I'll be facing it, so why even bother the risk of hanpering myself?
Welp, looks like I missed the survey. Anyways, I would like to congratulate Smogon and the community on 20 bans. Hopefully, we get to 25 at this point. I'm rooting for chaos. Not a criticism, by the way. I even agree with most of those bans. Too much broken stuff. GF doesn't understand balance. I also completely agree with the Sneasler quick ban. That thing was dumb on a lot of levels.
I suppose I'll just give my 2 cents on everything else while I'm at it. First, I would support future bans to Ogerpon-W, Manaphy, and Kingambit at whatever point. Kingambit is just too much with tera, I feel, since what beats it no longer does with Tera. I've dealt with Tail Glow Manaphy in past gens. It hasn't been that bad in my opinion. Trying to predict between that Tail Glow and set or the Take Heart set while also worrying about tera types really limits the available counterplay.
Ogerpon in general is just whack. Waterpon is what I feel is most urgent. But the other forms have me a bit wary of coming through the cracks once other bans happen. Rock/Grass is a good typing for Cornerstone and having such a strong Rock move puts it on my radar. I was even playing around with the boring Teal Mask in VGC, I know VGC but hear me out, and it does stupid damage in Grassy Terrain with grass type Ivy Cudgel. You get a speed boost and an adaptability 100 BP STAB on Grassy Terrain. It's an insane damage multiplier and a speed boost before you even get to the item you are using. Plus, it has Defiant for Lando-T. I haven't personally had any issues with Cornerstone or Teal Mask in OU so far, and right now I would only ban Wellspring, but the general potential of the Oger feels too dangerous from a pure design perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if either form was shown to be a problem in the future.
I am a staunch Gholdengho defender, which I know is unpopular on here. I do see Gholdengo and saw some others as important glue pokemon. I'm tired of hearing about broken checks broken not being an argument in a gen where like everything is actually broken. And if X pokemon isn't actually broken, it's likely close and Tera probably pushes it over the top somehow.
I also feel it's a red herring for people why cry about with hazard stack. Not as much as I felt Gliscor was, which is also an unpopular opinion. GF clearly made efforts to try and make hazards stronger this gen. I don't know if it was the right decision, and it seems like GF took a chainsaw to surgery instead of a scalpel, but this is what we have. Banning Gliscor did not stop people from crying about hazards. We've always had a bazillion spike setters and not enough defoggers this gen. I digress. What's done is done.
Would banning Gholdengo change this problem? Maybe. But banning Gliscor didn't, and I remember being told the hazards were most of what put it over the top. I was also told by many people on here that the goal wasn't to nerf hazard stack into oblivion. Gonna call BS on that now since the first thing some people do after the Gliscor ban is cry about why Ghold is still legal. I can tell which way the wind is blowing. It seems inevitable that it will go. I'm not mad. I don't even really feel like arguing for it anymore. I'll even go so far as to say that it makes some sense to look at it now. It just seems like a lot of folks will be disappointed when they realize that the general increased offensive pressure from power creep and decreased distribution of Defog are what really makes hazards feel worse than in other recent gens.
Before I go, I have another unpopular opinion to share. I much prefer Spikes being dominant over Stealth Rock. You heard me. I hated when rocks were introduced and we found out that it punished certain types that didn't need it like Bug and Ice. Types that didn't need to be stronger like Steel and Ground got better. The 4x weaknesses on entry are dumb, too. I get that Pokemon needed something to hit Flying types and Levitate mons, but that's all. Every even half decent pro-SR argument that was ever made could have still been made if Stealth Rock did typeless damage like Spikes and maybe only double to Flying types.
Before someone says it, I'm in no way arguing that Spikes in gen 9 aren't broken. They are. But this entire gen is broken and I still prefer them being in a dominant position compared to rocks. Just my opinion. Make of that what you will.
I suppose I'll just give my 2 cents on everything else while I'm at it. First, I would support future bans to Ogerpon-W, Manaphy, and Kingambit at whatever point. Kingambit is just too much with tera, I feel, since what beats it no longer does with Tera. I've dealt with Tail Glow Manaphy in past gens. It hasn't been that bad in my opinion. Trying to predict between that Tail Glow and set or the Take Heart set while also worrying about tera types really limits the available counterplay.
Ogerpon in general is just whack. Waterpon is what I feel is most urgent. But the other forms have me a bit wary of coming through the cracks once other bans happen. Rock/Grass is a good typing for Cornerstone and having such a strong Rock move puts it on my radar. I was even playing around with the boring Teal Mask in VGC, I know VGC but hear me out, and it does stupid damage in Grassy Terrain with grass type Ivy Cudgel. You get a speed boost and an adaptability 100 BP STAB on Grassy Terrain. It's an insane damage multiplier and a speed boost before you even get to the item you are using. Plus, it has Defiant for Lando-T. I haven't personally had any issues with Cornerstone or Teal Mask in OU so far, and right now I would only ban Wellspring, but the general potential of the Oger feels too dangerous from a pure design perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if either form was shown to be a problem in the future.
I am a staunch Gholdengho defender, which I know is unpopular on here. I do see Gholdengo and saw some others as important glue pokemon. I'm tired of hearing about broken checks broken not being an argument in a gen where like everything is actually broken. And if X pokemon isn't actually broken, it's likely close and Tera probably pushes it over the top somehow.
I also feel it's a red herring for people why cry about with hazard stack. Not as much as I felt Gliscor was, which is also an unpopular opinion. GF clearly made efforts to try and make hazards stronger this gen. I don't know if it was the right decision, and it seems like GF took a chainsaw to surgery instead of a scalpel, but this is what we have. Banning Gliscor did not stop people from crying about hazards. We've always had a bazillion spike setters and not enough defoggers this gen. I digress. What's done is done.
Would banning Gholdengo change this problem? Maybe. But banning Gliscor didn't, and I remember being told the hazards were most of what put it over the top. I was also told by many people on here that the goal wasn't to nerf hazard stack into oblivion. Gonna call BS on that now since the first thing some people do after the Gliscor ban is cry about why Ghold is still legal. I can tell which way the wind is blowing. It seems inevitable that it will go. I'm not mad. I don't even really feel like arguing for it anymore. I'll even go so far as to say that it makes some sense to look at it now. It just seems like a lot of folks will be disappointed when they realize that the general increased offensive pressure from power creep and decreased distribution of Defog are what really makes hazards feel worse than in other recent gens.
Before I go, I have another unpopular opinion to share. I much prefer Spikes being dominant over Stealth Rock. You heard me. I hated when rocks were introduced and we found out that it punished certain types that didn't need it like Bug and Ice. Types that didn't need to be stronger like Steel and Ground got better. The 4x weaknesses on entry are dumb, too. I get that Pokemon needed something to hit Flying types and Levitate mons, but that's all. Every even half decent pro-SR argument that was ever made could have still been made if Stealth Rock did typeless damage like Spikes and maybe only double to Flying types.
Before someone says it, I'm in no way arguing that Spikes in gen 9 aren't broken. They are. But this entire gen is broken and I still prefer them being in a dominant position compared to rocks. Just my opinion. Make of that what you will.
Banning gliscor literally solved the problem. The meta is so fast paced now that other spikers dont have the defensive utility to get up more than 1 layer most of the time(cant believe I'm saying this about ting lu). Gliscor could threaten any offensive threats that wanted to damage it with toxic and then come back to get spikes up with its recovery. Ting lu gets up 1 spike and dies in two hits. Clod is actually decent at spiking but really slow and passive + mid typing. Hammy and shocks are strong spikers but they are way more frail and also struggle to get up more than 1. I see hazard stacking teams so infrequently that I don't even think the playstyle is particularly viable post gliscor ban.
Is there a precedent for a test ban? Could we ban Gholdengo and then reassess the tier in a little while? There definitely is an issue now with the DLC coming kinda soon, but maybe ban it and add it back in December?
this is an interesting idea that could give us valuable insight into the effects that ghold produces or doesn't produce upon the meta, so no, of course not
Honestly the issues in Gen 9 metagame are too fundemental and conceptual where regular bans will fix nothing.
Gen 9 definitely feels like GameFreak saw how HDBs and Corviknight made Gen 8 too bulky, and their response was simply to overtune hazards. Give several Pokemon Spikes, create Gholdengo, nerfing Defog distribution, and even nerfed recovery moves. Then added a bunch of fast hard hitting Pokemon with good coverage. I don’t think there is really any easy solution to fixing Gen 9 that still aligns with Smogon tiering policy. Our only real hope is that Gen 10 undoes the damage caused by Gen 8 and 9. That or Smogon starts having unconventual bans/clauses like having limited hazards clause.
Gen 9 definitely feels like GameFreak saw how HDBs and Corviknight made Gen 8 too bulky, and their response was simply to overtune hazards. Give several Pokemon Spikes, create Gholdengo, nerfing Defog distribution, and even nerfed recovery moves. Then added a bunch of fast hard hitting Pokemon with good coverage. I don’t think there is really any easy solution to fixing Gen 9 that still aligns with Smogon tiering policy. Our only real hope is that Gen 10 undoes the damage caused by Gen 8 and 9. That or Smogon starts having unconventual bans/clauses like having limited hazards clause.
Imagine if hazards, primarily spikes, only had a max of 8 pp. That would mean that you could, at max, get 2 full layers of spikes and one layer of two spikes. Wouldn't that be so much better. Probably not because hey, gamefreak does not know actual game design and likes to fuck over competitive pokemon.
i don't think we can confidently say things like this until we kick ghold out of the tier and see what dlc2 brings. who knows, we might get a couple new viable hazard removers, defog as a tm might come back, ghold being gone might solve the problem all on its own, we don't know, so we can't just throw up our hands and say the gen is unfixable within tiering policy until we've actually tried fixing it within tiering policy and the whole gen is out
pressure corv would become so much better. like, it'd be unbelievable how fast that thing would rise. not only a defogger, but a defogger that cuts the opponent's already-limited spikes potential in half? wild.
If banning Gliscor literally solved the problem, as you say, then why still ban Gholdengo?
You even go as far as to say you don't think hazard stacking is all that viable. I don't personally agree with that, but if it's the case then wouldn't banning Ghold be overkill? Ah... I still remember when multiple people told me the goal wasn't to nerf hazard stack into the ground. Those were the days.
Never mind my personal opinion on this. It just doesn't add up. Given all the folks who are still crying about Ghold, I'm guessing they don't see the problem as solved. What am I missing?
People want ghold banned not because of hazard stacking, thats not the problem. The problem is that many people believe that the combination of its ability, stats, and move pool make it extremely hard for fatter teams to deal with it to the point of it making those styles practically unviable. How is semi stall/ stall/ a bulkier balance team supposed to break through nasty plot recover covert cloak ghold?
"hey to not make this a one liner what do you all think about (tangentially related ou thing)" could be its own damn meme atp, but what do people think of Webs structures right now? I don't think it's a stretch to say that Ribombee will largely fall off if Ghold's constraints on the teambuilder and on in-game hazard removal, and the prevalence of Webs in OU will likely fade. What I'm interested in is the general opinion on webs in OU right now - do people like its prescence in the meta? Do y'all want it gone? How constraining or freeing do you think it is in your teambuilding?
Personally, I think Webs has fallen off a bit— but I don’t even mean in viability, I honestly just mean in usage. I think people have new toyed it and it’s now just a thing you see occasionally and is a normal part of the meta game.
Maybe your team is well-prepared for it. Maybe it’s a tough matchup for you. But it doesn’t feel overly centralizing like it was earlier in the meta (Clear Body DPult and Cinderace no longer mandatory), or how hazard stack feels right now.
It doesn't bother me, but man I hated the ribombee/gholdengo/gliscor core. Simply walled Great Tusk and Defog no matter what you did. With gliscor gone, there's a little more breathing room for great tusk to actually try and spin now (I run boots tusk exactly for this). So I guess you could say webs is whatever, it's not too overbearing, but you do have to play around it.
I hate webs, not as a playstyle, but because it feels like their not really having to lose anything by running ribombee. Due to its high speed, you can't immediately get rid of hazards or when you try to ko it, a pokemon will either get crippled by stun spore or severly chipped by moonblast. Like, it's still an amazing pokemon and goes against what webs/HO leads downside is, that you sacrifice a mon to get the best conditions for your teamates.
It's sad because I like ribombee outside lead webs position and other sticky web mons are either extremely trash, or are extremely slow (sometimes both) making the playstyle enjoyable to see. If I was given a council position, banning sticky web on ribombee would be one of my first decisions. Probably the main reason why I won't ever get a council position (besides having a severe lack of experience and not being a good pokemon player, but let's ignore those small details).
there are so many banger songs about gold and money, though. money is the second most common song topic ever, right after love and right before religion (and some people might not look at religion as that big a driver of music, but remember: church hymns). that's the real reason the council hasn't suspected ghold—they can't pick a song
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There is literally the song 'money, money, money', multiple songs that titles are just 'money' and a song that literally is just the sound of coins and cash registers (idk the name, I heard it on my dad's playlist in the car before he left to go get milk.) On google, there is 51 results for money songs. How in the hell can you choose.
I’ve been thinking about this whole Gholdengo conversation today and just wanted to throw my hat in one more time to summarize my thoughts.
It’s important to remember that, at the end of the day, we’re all trying to reach the same goal— a more fun meta game. But what we consider fun just seems to be different, and that’s okay.
Personally, I really enjoy balance team structures. I like the idea of using defensive pieces to check as many things as possible and making skillful doubles and smart predictions to jockey for better positioning. I think that is a fun and skillful way to play the game.
As such, I find things like hazard stack very unfun and nonskillful. This is not to say that there is no skill involved in playing a hazard stack team. But it is to say that it discourages skillful play for compositions that I like to run, as I am either forced to run a lot of suboptimal items/sets/mons, or am punished for making skillful predictions as I jockey for positioning. For example, even if I switch out to a Kingambit or Ting-Lu to eat Gholdengo’s STAB move, unless I’m running HDB (when I’d rather be running Leftovers), I am punished for making the appropriate play. Furthermore, if on the next turn I again make the best play, which is more than likely to predict your switch and double accordingly, I am again punished for it. This is, to some extent, the point of hazards, but it is incredibly cumbersome to play the game this way when, once I do finally get Great Tusk in, we still have to play the Gholdengo switch 50/50, the Air Balloon 50/50, the random Tera Ghost 50/50, etc. And even if you just let Gholdengo die, you can often just use the momentum to bring in something like Iron Valiant to threaten me out again, which means I now restart the cycle of jockeying for a Great Tusk position and getting punished by Spikes along the way. Maybe you could argue this is a skill issue and I need to make even MORE aggressive predictions to get my Great Tusk in sooner, but this sort of defeats the purpose of running a balance core, as now I am risking a high-value piece when I would typically have another safer option.
If you find hazard stack fun and skillful, I do not blame you, and I encourage you to get reqs when the Gholdengo suspect test comes and vote no ban. For me, personally, Gholdengo is too constricting on teambuilding and gameplay, and causes me to have less fun than I would if it wasn’t in the meta. This is not the opinion of every player, as we all come from different backgrounds in mons and think and build differently, and that’s all okay. Actually it’s a good thing.
In conclusion, when the time comes, may the best idea win— but let’s remember we’re all working towards the same goal, even if we’re on opposite sides of the issue.
It’s important to remember that, at the end of the day, we’re all trying to reach the same goal— a more fun meta game. But what we consider fun just seems to be different, and that’s okay.
Personally, I really enjoy balance team structures. I like the idea of using defensive pieces to check as many things as possible and making skillful doubles and smart predictions to jockey for better positioning. I think that is a fun and skillful way to play the game.
As such, I find things like hazard stack very unfun and nonskillful. This is not to say that there is no skill involved in playing a hazard stack team. But it is to say that it discourages skillful play for compositions that I like to run, as I am either forced to run a lot of suboptimal items/sets/mons, or am punished for making skillful predictions as I jockey for positioning. For example, even if I switch out to a Kingambit or Ting-Lu to eat Gholdengo’s STAB move, unless I’m running HDB (when I’d rather be running Leftovers), I am punished for making the appropriate play. Furthermore, if on the next turn I again make the best play, which is more than likely to predict your switch and double accordingly, I am again punished for it. This is, to some extent, the point of hazards, but it is incredibly cumbersome to play the game this way when, once I do finally get Great Tusk in, we still have to play the Gholdengo switch 50/50, the Air Balloon 50/50, the random Tera Ghost 50/50, etc. And even if you just let Gholdengo die, you can often just use the momentum to bring in something like Iron Valiant to threaten me out again, which means I now restart the cycle of jockeying for a Great Tusk position and getting punished by Spikes along the way. Maybe you could argue this is a skill issue and I need to make even MORE aggressive predictions to get my Great Tusk in sooner, but this sort of defeats the purpose of running a balance core, as now I am risking a high-value piece when I would typically have another safer option.
If you find hazard stack fun and skillful, I do not blame you, and I encourage you to get reqs when the Gholdengo suspect test comes and vote no ban. For me, personally, Gholdengo is too constricting on teambuilding and gameplay, and causes me to have less fun than I would if it wasn’t in the meta. This is not the opinion of every player, as we all come from different backgrounds in mons and think and build differently, and that’s all okay. Actually it’s a good thing.
In conclusion, when the time comes, may the best idea win— but let’s remember we’re all working towards the same goal, even if we’re on opposite sides of the issue.
Thing is: if we could control hazards with more certainty, then bulkier teams would see usage, and help tackle the harder offensive ones. Like, early on in gen 9, I used Corv for Defog. Amazing still, but, it just lost to any Gholdengo teams. Can't touch it, but still one of the best defoggers we have. It's the reason Cinderace and Tusk find such high usage. Both also handle
Gliscor's ban killed a lot of the bulkier teams' options, since it was compressing so much into one slot. One of the few good Mons into hazard hell that doesn't rely on boots, status immunity, electric immunity... Spots on stall/semi-stall/fat are at a premium dealing with the format. If we banned the Mon that held the hazard meta in a chokehold, then it would relieve pressure on the Hazard stuff. Corv getting better usage is very useful for tackling the Tusk and Gambit issues, while it also has checks in the likes of Cinderace, Thundy-T, Tbolt Valiant and heatran.
Wile, yes, we need to calm the offensive side down, Ghold also is under that tag. Nasty Plot, Trick, Recover and an insane SpDef. And can't be Statused (with exceptions), so no putting it to sleep, paralyzing, taunting or tricking it. Imagine if we could force it to have a choice band. Make it rain is ridiculous, and shadow ball's drops make defensive checks hard to come by. Even the best one of Blissey can't be relied on without Tera cause of Psyshock.
So yeah. Ghold is part of the causes and the symptoms of the format. It's overstayed it's welcome.
I have to admit, been using modest 232 SpA Ghold with webs support and it can hit some pretty impressive feats such as:
- OHKOing -1 speed Greninja when it switches into nasty plot
- OHKOing most -1 speed tusk without a boost, meaning you can come in on any attack with a balloon and force some damage
- 2HKOing ting Lu at +4
- OHKOing some garganacl
- OHKOing some -1 speed iron moth at +2
- OHKOing some iron valiant at -1 speed without needing make it rain
- Put at least 35% on most Kingambit
- 2HKOing most Ogerpon at -1 speed
- 2HKO or OHKO @+2 alomomola and the other regenerators without needing prediction as much
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Not to be that guy, but ohkoing greninja isn't exactly difficult lol. But regardless, webs is a good move and I pray that ribombee is a trend and not legitimate post DLC2
Something I enjoy doing against webs is clicking taunt on heatran turn 1. Yeah it's not denying webs but it is denying the follow up stun spore which either forces them out or makes them stay and die 75% of the time to magma storm.
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If councils really cared about what song to pick we probably would have got something other than Toxic by Britney Spears for every goddamn poison type by now.
who's gonna tell him what type gliscor is
Ik the stall talk is done but like...
Iron Hands @ Leftovers / Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Poison / Fire
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Swords Dance
Answer me this question. How the FUCK is stall ever getting past a fuckin Iron Hands? "Oh just burn it" it has tera Fire and now you can't. "Oh just poison it" Swords Dance already negates 1 burn, and a +4 (effectively) Iron Hands already washes stall -- so tera Steel or Poison can work just fine here. "Just Haze it" oh sure but uum
220+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not sure that'll work tomohawk. If they seriously terastallize a fucking Toxapex or Clodsire just to beat Iron Hands, it shows they can't beat it. And if you dare say Dondozo, let me remind you this thing can run an effective Booster Energy attack set and ALSO 2HKO that Unaware mon -- the same thing goes with Skeledirge. Legit this thing just 2 shots all Unaware mons, and with speed investment you could outspeed Skeledirge. Not like it's gonna hurt you but... It's worth noting.
And if you think this is a Stallkiller exclusive, it also beats non Tera Fairy Blast Kingambit as well, among other powerful things like Heatran, Dragonite etc. I mentioned this thing somewhere in another forum about countering pokemon (Lure that Threat?) and my nomination was Iron Hands. Use it. It's good
Iron Hands @ Leftovers / Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Poison / Fire
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Swords Dance
Answer me this question. How the FUCK is stall ever getting past a fuckin Iron Hands? "Oh just burn it" it has tera Fire and now you can't. "Oh just poison it" Swords Dance already negates 1 burn, and a +4 (effectively) Iron Hands already washes stall -- so tera Steel or Poison can work just fine here. "Just Haze it" oh sure but uum
220+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not sure that'll work tomohawk. If they seriously terastallize a fucking Toxapex or Clodsire just to beat Iron Hands, it shows they can't beat it. And if you dare say Dondozo, let me remind you this thing can run an effective Booster Energy attack set and ALSO 2HKO that Unaware mon -- the same thing goes with Skeledirge. Legit this thing just 2 shots all Unaware mons, and with speed investment you could outspeed Skeledirge. Not like it's gonna hurt you but... It's worth noting.
And if you think this is a Stallkiller exclusive, it also beats non Tera Fairy Blast Kingambit as well, among other powerful things like Heatran, Dragonite etc. I mentioned this thing somewhere in another forum about countering pokemon (Lure that Threat?) and my nomination was Iron Hands. Use it. It's good
2 things
1) you didn't even posted the evs bro
2)
+6 220+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 236-282 (46.8 - 55.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
+6 220+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Fighting Dondozo: 118-141 (23.4 - 27.9%) -- 84.5% chance to 4HKO
+6 220+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Fighting Dondozo: 118-141 (23.4 - 27.9%) -- 84.5% chance to 4HKO
+6 220+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Fighting Dondozo: 106-125 (21 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+6 220+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Fighting Dondozo: 79-94 (15.6 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO
You need to plan towards donzo, in fact, let's see the clef roll
+2 220+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
this is your best attack for it btw, and clef often runs cm + unaware because fuck fun
this is not to say Iron Hand it's not ass, but it doesn't solo stall, if you really wanna just min max it, go with Lum Berry to take status
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On the hands topic, I have this meme set that for some reason was way more viable than it should
Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Drain Punch
- Protect
- Thunder Punch
I used this in pre DLC in this team https://pokepast.es/095057fa62f218b5
Combined with hazard stacking to lay constant pressure on stuff, and protect because choice items are popular, I once out stalled Specs Hoopa Unbound because he was locked into psyshock, and I was tera water, damm that was fun. this is one of those things that only work out because hstack is so broken lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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