Metagame Views From The Council [ SEE POST 716 ]

[Quizzy]

NJNP brings up excellent points on staleness and restrictiveness in the teambuilder only two weeks into a DLC metagame which has offered us numerous new options. I believe Kokoloko may be extreme right now, but see it as a viable alternative in the future to consecutive suspect tests. At the moment I believe we should still bide our time and see, at least for a few weeks. A maximum of maybe 4 Pokémon should be considered in a Kokoloko scenario, as we need to show restraint. I believe there are a few key metagame threats that should be worked on first whether through the Kokoloko method or otherwise:

These guys are by far the most restrictive in the builder right now if you ask me. In addition to the Meow buff and Skarm coming back, these three generally make teams trend towards that same-ish fat balance playstyle with Gking, Toxapex, and/or Ting-Lu alongside an iron defense or unaware physical check (usually Skarmory) to weather the storm of Roaring Moon and Volcarona's boosting and ability to beat most traditional counters with taunt and tera respectively. Those same cores help vs. Kyurem's ridiculous power using specs or even boots sets for that matter. The existence of these three alone invalidate most BO structures, which can't afford to run the bulky pivots they need alongside consistent answers for the three of them (via phazing, haze, resitances, iron defense etc.) whereas balance can more easily fit the aforementioned checks. I think Kyurem and Volc are slightly more heinous than Roaring Moon, which is more limited by priority, a greater reliance on terastallization, moveslot restrictions, etc.

Honestly, I have wanted tiering action on Ghold since day one of SV. It has had an extreme stranglehold on the metagame by its ability to not only defeat popular balance structures with ease, but of course restrict the hazard metagame. While many argue that its removal only free up Corviknight and maybe Mandibuzz to defog, you are still essentially doubling the amount of hazard removal we have in the tier, as all we currently rely on

,

, and maybe

. Hazards meta doesn't disappear with Ghold, but it certainly becomes more manageable. I put Ghold as a lower priority than Kyurem and Volc though, especially since balance right now does not always fit Gholdengo in, allowing for defog Corv to actually get some mileage.


These four, in my opinion, warrant more immediate action in order to ease up on the restrictiveness of the current metagame. Moving towards suspects after the fact, I also believe that

, and maybe Meowscarada represent problem children in the metagame. Serp beats common checks with the use of the incredibly strong stellar tera and glare, and Meow with axel is just incredibly splashable and difficult to answer defensively with its ability to knock off and subsequently u-turn on common answers. Again, we should consider the Kokoloko approach with caution considering the meta is still young and developing, but I can see it being helpful. Give it some time instead of rushing before SPL, a few weeks and tiering survey at least. If SPL happens and we see innovation, things could turn out to be better than they seem. If we see Meow fat every game that would confirm the poor current state of the meta.

 

[cyberacc]

Ban Gholdengo.

 

[Stads]

As a player right in peak Dunning-Kruger territory (good enough to get reqs and vote, not good enough to be in SPL or tournaments), I find the Kokoloko method intriguing but a bit premature at this time. I find Finch's arguments about it being too early for this kind of method compelling, especially since this DLC 2 has arrived and there's presumably no more major meta shifts to come in the future. The meta might indeed be stale (and it does genuinely feel awful to play games with 8-10 boots per match), but this might be more an artifact of gen 9 being around for a year than the meta itself, and it may yet evolve in a more interesting, playable direction soon.

Another reason why I'm a bit hesitant on the Kokoloko method is that I don't think it adapts well to a metagame-wide effect like Terastallization or an item like Heavy-Duty Boots. Munchkin Marvin brings up a good point in that whether tera is around or not could radically effect which mons are actually broken in the metagame. If Boots does get restricted in some form, it could also completely quake the meta to its core. As an obvious example, Volcarona is on some Kokoloko lists in this thread for good reason, but without Boots around, I'd find it hard to imagine it would be there.
I don't think we can really just lump these into the Kokoloko list since they have so many secondary and even tertiary knock-on effects that we can't really accurately predict without playing the resultant metagame a lot.

That said, the council has indirectly asked for it, and it may be helpful to make my personal Kokoloko list anyway. I see from Kokoloko's original post that the idea is to "(ban) everything that is potentially "broken" before we begin", so I'll add Pokemon that probably aren't broken, but do have the potential to be so, even if it is slight. In approximate order of "Yeah, this is probably already getting a ban vote" to "I mean, maybe one day it could be broken?":

Just try switching into specs sets. With Freeze-Dry coverage, this thing is insanely strong. It can also simply break balance by the virtue of freeze eliminating an opposing mon from the game. It's a stupid mechanic and one I hope Game Freak changes next generation.

The Knock sets really hurt, and with so many hazards around, it almost seems to force Skarmory onto balance teams. Perhaps it'll even adapt to using Tera Fire/Electric to help with that.

The matchup moth is more matchup-y than ever, with tera ground, substitute, and will-o-wisp sets all letting it pick and choose most of its checks. 30% chance to burn on contact also tends to 100% in an endlessly looping boots meta.

This is probably the best spiker in OU again, greatly contributing to the continued hazardpocalypse. U-turn sets seem more common than last time it was around, I suppose to help BO teams maintain momentum while also helping them not lose to 5+ boots balance cores.

A bit of this is just personal hate, but Glare is a stupidly strong move, and with tera (+Webs being playable still?) around to help it pick and choose counters, Serperior seems to just promote unhealthy, hax-ridden gameplay without really providing anything positive to the meta.

I don't think the hazard lead sets are necessarily banworthy on their own, but the flexibility this thing has is still wild. It can do screens, it can be a sort of powerful all-out attacker, it can run skill swap to beat Hatt, it even gets Trick to cripple potential switch-ins. I suspect that as time goes on, Deoxys-S will only get more and more impossible to teambuild for and play around.

I'll admit that I do love OU's resident string cheese man. It provides a ton of defensive utility, a unique typing, and lots of set flexibility without being an overpowering stat check. But it also is probably why Boots have continued to fester and infect OU, and it really does collapse team structures into only what can survive hazards being up all the time, everywhere.

It's probably fine right now, but it's also an absurdly powerful breaker with access to Dragon Dance and Booster Energy. It's a bit grey on whether the adaptation to its very strong fire/ground/dragon coverage is simply good practice or overly warping on the teambuilder.

Again, probably fine right now, but Thunderclap is a kind of absurd move, and if Ting-Lu ever somehow gets pushed out of the meta, I'm not really sure what will be around to deal with this thing.

It's the fastest mon around, and while it's pretty weak, it might have just enough coverage to make games a little matchup fishy.

Gambit has honestly been mostly fine since DLC 2 dropped, but if we're looking for "potentially broken" mons, it's hard to say it doesn't belong there.

If Boulder somehow goes, Valiant might come back with a vengeance, and its flexibility makes it potentially broken.

I think teams preparing for Volc and the generally fat cores have definitely stymied Enamorus a bit, but it gets Contrary and can therefore abuse Stellar tera mechanics, plus it hits hard. Once again, potentially (even not very likely) broken.

Another fast mon with a bunch of set flexibility that might rise to the top with everything else getting removed.

Another another fast mon, less flexible but just excellent at stat-checking Hyper Offence as a whole.

I've barely seen this at all since DLC 2 dropped, but it was arguably banworthy pre-DLC, so another potential ban candidate.

Seen maybe 1 or 2 of these since DLC 2 dropped, but also arguably banworthy pre-DLC.

It might be worth throwing Dozo on the Kokoloko pile just to make sure it justifies its existence in the OU tier. This poor whale has been overworked holding the tier together for so long, let's make sure we haven't gotten too used to it.

 

[Endrism]

If the Kokoloko method happens, which Im not all for, but whatever, here are my opinions on who should go:
Baxclibur 2 + a bonkers Specs set
Volcarona
brain-dead strat that becomes overwhelming at +2, and very hard to deal with at +1.
Still just as bad with DD Knock+Acrobatics.

Mons that could go, but I have problems with going:
Meta defining, but that doesn't mean broken. There was a time where people ran HP Ice Lando-T to deal with other Lando-T's, but just because Lando was meta defining, doesnt mean it was broken either. I think it should stay.
Bulkier teams dont mind this thing as much, and as long as you have ways of dealing with hazards its fine. Puts HO teams through a meat grinder tho.
If Kyurem and Deoxys go, this thing should follow. Else it should stay. Darkrai also gives this thing a hard time, and its definitely become easier to deal with, but that feels like its because a lot of the things that take it down could be banworthy themselves.
Same thing it always did. Stella tera is alright, but not as good as Enamorus' usage of it. Leaf Storm Glare is annoying, but I think its fine.
Bad defensive typing, FANTASTIC offensive typing and coverage. Weak to Knock and U-Turn, but hits like a steamtrain. I cant tell where this thing is going, but Kyurem, Enam, and Volcarona are 3 things it checks, without them in the metagame things may adapt around Boulder.

Mons I think should NOT go:
definitely A+ tier mon rn, but not busted. A lot of grounds and Dondozo really hinder this things progress. Fantastic mon tho.
Has mellowed out from an S tier threat to a solid splashable A+ or S- pick. not banworthy imo.
Feels like a special equivalent to past gen Scizor in OU. Slow heavy attacker, but has a nice defensive typing and priority stab with decent slow pivot capabilities. Nice to have around, but not overpowered.
Great scarf user, good with NP or even Hypnosis if you feel risky, but overall a good OU fit.
too many Psychics and Fairies running around now. Boulder, Crown, Enam, the Latis, Glowking, and the always threatening Granbull.

 

[kd458]

What do I think of the Kokoloko method?

Though I don't think that it's completely unreasonable to put forward a Kokoloko method in some tiers, I think this would be a terrible decision for SV DLC2 OU in its current state. If the meta is overly centralised around anything it's a playstyle rather than a mon, and I'm at the point that I don't even think banning Ghold would completely save hazard control in OU considering that there are 2 defoggers that Ghold blocks which aren't shitmons and every relevant spinner beats Ghold harder than they beat other spinblockers (though I'm aware there's more nuance than that, I do play the game). I'd at most propose a separate ladder with these changes, and there is an approx 0.00% chance that this would go through considering how few people would actually play it.

Like it has been mentioned earlier in this thread, I'd have supported trying this out during DLC1 where there were some clearly busted threats in the tier like Bloodmoon, RM, Sneasler and Scor along with some that didn't end up banned like Waterpon, Manaphy and even Gambit, but we absolutely do not need this right now. The most overbearing presence in this meta is hazards and any attempt to deal with this should be done individually as the changes to the tier in a post-Ghold world (if that even went through) would be large enough that I would expect the meta to look entirely different.

This feels like it would be a tiering decision rushed through entirely for the benefit of SPL and would end in a shitshow far worse than the Volc quickban, which was a decision that I don't even strongly hate as Volc is imo one of the few mons I'd be happy to see leave the tier right now. Maybe some would disagree but I find the tier pretty enjoyable and see no reason for us to conduct a mass ban wave of this scale, with no idea of how it'll actually affect the metagame or if it'll actually make it more fun and competitive than it is now.

Who could be an issue right now?


The only mons I'd consider quickbanning right now are the aforementioned Volcarona, which I really don't think adds anything to the tier other than another tera abusing boost sweeper that will always lose to one counter while beating another, and Roaring Moon, which didn't get much real counterplay back as Tera Flying Taunt still beats Scor/Skarm while forcing most other checks to tera. As of right now, Gliscor is fine, Darkrai is fine, Enam is fine, Boulder is fine, Serp is fine and Gambit's the least problematic it's ever been with Skarmory as a hard check or counter and the rise in popularity of Zamazenta (who is also fine). Maybe they'll rise as issues later, who knows? We just don't know that right now and Kokoloko'ing any of these feels very pre-emptive.


Gholdengo is definitely public enemy number one, but again, I'm not convinced that forcing Corv and Mandi on every team would fix hazards entirely even if it would objectively make the situation better; we have no Defog Zapdos, no Defog Lando-T, not even Defog Moltres to save us. I'd like to see the tier without Ghold though, it just makes no sense to me to ban it and remove a bunch of unrelated mons at the same time as that's an entirely different meta and there's no reason to destroy the tier before getting to see the effect of this.


Deo-S may be an issue, but I'm not even convinced of this being QB worthy as it is not exactly a mon with a chokehold on the tier that forces hard prep to be able to handle it (making it less oppressive than Kingambit to me, who I also wouldn't QB). Kyurem is incredibly strong and really hard to switch into, but I feel like the heavy presence of hazards actually limits it as it makes choiced sets harder to justify while I don't think DD or Boots mixed is particularly broken. I just think that the mons I've listed as problematic here deserves a suspect, and quickbanning not only these mons which aren't even clearly busted but also some which just don't feel broken at all feels like a huge mistake.

These are just my thoughts on the potentially problematic mons in the tier. I am fully against a Kokoloko Tiering Method in current SVOU.

 

[TibarnWasTaken]

If we are concerned about making the meta palatable for SPL, I think we should ban everything suggested in OP (or whatever people ultimately decide is best to ban) and then unban it all post SPL and proceed with a normal suspect testing process. For reasons outlined in CTC's post among others I question if using the Kokoloko method is wise in this situation

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

I'd say hit tera first before any change to tiering methodology. This mechanic has been controversial since it's release and narrowly avoided any action on the suspect. 59.25% action. Some of the mentioned mons are an issue because of their interactions with tera: kingambit, volcarona, arguably roaring moon. And the rest while not egregious still are able to benefit due to the nature of tera/blast introducing inconsistency when it comes to how to respond to them.

I don't see the point of banning several mons when the base the metagame was built on is potentially the issue.

 

[Chlora]

Sorry if the post is not very well developed (it's almost 1 am), but

I disagree when i see others say that current OU is "fine". There are simply way too many nuclear bombs in the tier, to the point that defensive counterplay is often insufficient given very minimal team support from the offensive side (i'll elaborate on this in a bit), but it's not like it's a dynamic interaction to both players at the same time, since the answer is often using your Tera (probably after sacrificing something so said Tera user can come in and actually do it's thing) to avoid being 6-0d by the many OHKO machines present.


Gholdengo
This is only made worse by Gholdengo, who completely denies hazard removal by just existing. Even if it dies, it generated momentum for the teammate about to come in (like Roaring Moon , Volcarona or Enamorus , just to name a few) to create an unalterable win/win scenario. At worst, of course, because at his usual performance a well-played Gholdengo, whose set Great Tusk or the rarer more niche options in Excadrill / Weezing-G (basically the only viable removal options, with not so much assurance on the last 2) can't know, Tera included, can completely shut down any attempt to make whatever defensive plays you could otherwise scramble to profit out of. A lot of teams, ESPECIALLY defensive ones, have completely given up on gambling against Gholdengo and instead opt for HDB spam, forgoing Leftovers out of necessity, which keeps them frail and easy to exploit long term thanks to the huge PP nerfs recovery moves recieved this gen; meanwhile offensive teams are almost required to run Cinderace if they don't want to enter the mickey mouse webs on webs territory (none of them do).

My point is, i think Gholdengo is long overdue some action because of how centralizing it is. Even though it's probably not the greatest fit for Kokoloko by nature, but since others voice their concerns for the string cheese too i figured i might as well


Booster Energy

This item is the epitome of hyper offense, and a very good reason why that style has been so consistently excellent throughout the generation thus far. It's essentially a no-drawback Scarf or Life Orb on HO. We've seen it time and time again elevate mons like Roaring Moon, Iron Boulder, and arguably Iron Valiant & Iron Moth.

I think this would also be an interesting contender for Kokoloko, since all of the aforementioned except Roaring Moon rely on this item to have the impact they do.

Brokarona
Same stuff it did before it got sealed away, just with less targets and setup opportunities without spending tera. Almost just as stupid to fight against on offense compared to dlc 1, just as stupid now to fight it on balance/stall. Arguably even better thanks to the rise of webs.

Broken Moon
The exact same thing as before except it can get thwarted by iron boulder if it isnt Proto Speed. Inferior, yes, but helps beat the ONE THING that offensively checks you. Same story as before; let it dd and at least one thing drops. Either have a mon with enough bulk to tank the +1 knock/tera flying acrobatics or you lose immediately. What a fun, balanced and interactive mon to fight against!
There's also Iron Boulder but that's not exactly balanced either now is it lmao? Broken checks broken yadda yadda

Kingambit
This mon has been debated to exhaustion, it's broken checks broken. I have good reason to believe a good part of the people who voted "no" for a suspect back then would be because of the logic that goes "hey this thing is undeniably broken and gets past everythingand tera is a huge part of that, so, surely, if kingambit doesn't go then tera will get a 2nd suspect"
At this point i don't think the tier will settle before the next generation and consequently the promised Tera suspect, so while that's far to come, we should get rid of it for the time being


Other stuff that i'm not very qualified to talk about in detail but will mention anyway

• Iron Boulder just seems like yet another textbook strong offense mon. I think booster energy and the excellent teammates it has in HO like Samurott-Hisui, Ninetales-Alola Deoxys-Speed and Glimmora, among others who i probably forgot, as well as the other offensive behemoths makes it way too hard for any team without Dondozo to handle without spending a tera for it to be reasonable. Only really offensively checked by Kingambit & sometimes Zamazenta, but that can all be changed with a Tera on Boulder.
• Deoxys-Speed to me is one of those mons that looks fine to drop onto OU if you don't look into it, but quickly becomes apparent that it's really stupid. THE BEST screens lead & anti lead right now while also being a fearsome setup sweeper. I don't think it's a good presence in the tier, and taking action around it would lead to an eventual test anyway because despite the Kingambits, Roaring Moons and whatever other traditional hard walls it'd have (which these arent even, this thing gets superpower and it has just as much Atk as SpA) can just be middle fingered by Tera.

That being said...
Why did volc, deo-s and rm get freed???? I see a lot of players (who i assume) are better than me saying they're fine, especially RM, and i can't begin to understand why. If you could explain it to me it'd be nice :) genuienely.
I don't like playing anything other than stall because it has to interact with Tera the least, and the many new faces are simply asphyxiating for this playstyle. I'm not a high-level player so my opinions may be unfounded, but i think i'm grounded enough for the post

 

[coral fan]

give your own list of Pokemon you'd like removed due Kokoloko Method

[Fully support QB]


[QB - retest within next 6 months] OR [DNB but suspect test ASAP]

• Terastalisation
• 
• OR OR Both

[DNB]

• from NJNP:&
• from others:

edit: originally said that SPL shouldnt be a major consideration/a reason to rush things but i was kinda wrong

also, disclaimer & acknowledgement of my biases: i'm exclusively a ladder player who is usually like 1650-1850 elo. i dont usually do suspects, probably play like 100 games per month, mostly enjoy mons for the teambuilding process & almost never play stall or balance

 

[LOOR]

In theory, the tier is balanced but I wouldn't say its particularly healthy. There seems to be this regard that everything is perfect in this tier at the moment but I feel like this view mostly just response to the fact everything about DLC1 outside the first few release days was just purely awful. As mentioned in OP, the tier does feel like there's way too much to account for which results in a lot of games higher ladder do end up recycling similar structures (i play vs tingskarmgking shit every other game) but nothing feels blatantly broken. A lot of people are missing the point of the thread thinking this is another "grr council wants bans" situation, when its mostly just to address the topic that the tier has obvious issues but theres not really a mark to hit at the moment. On a side note, while the tier is kind of fun to play at the moment, the general restrictiveness because of how many things we are needing to cover in builder is not at all. I think its evident that we are eventually going to need to toss things out disregarding the "brokens are fun" aspect reach a more healthy state in the tier since as some people have noted, a new tier feeling this restrictive in just a few weeks is something of concern. The last thing we really want is to end up in a BW situation now or even years after SV is done.

All that said there are two points sort of-not exactly brought up by CTC that should be considered here for the time being. This tier has no serious tour games played at all, the experience and examples we have is solely based on laddering. Important tour games are when innovation and development are made in a tier, ladder isn't really a good testament to this. Also people are wanting to play with more not less so I think starting to look into aspects of the tier that would lighten the load would be beneficial, off the top of my head Booster Energy and Tera could be of value to look into. These are super controversial topics but also kill several birds with one stone. Tera wise I think its really time to wrap this whole thing up anyway, been dancing around the bush too much with this mechanic and I think the community just wants to see this conversation end no matter the result. I think at the moment is kind of hard to justify something like Kokoloko for the sole reason that we have not truly experienced this tier in tournament yet, I think this discussion is more important after SPL rather than before. If we are not going to toss out Deo-S (not exactly sure on this guy honestly) or Moon before SPL than we are probably fine entering week 1 how it is right now just to get an idea how we should proceed.

People who think tournaments are not / should not be a important consideration just because there are more people who don't play in them need to reconsider their train of thought. This website was created to play a alternative ruleset of competitive pokemon, notably singles. The soul of this website absolutely is its tournament playerbase and making our tiers as highly competitive and diverse as possible, sometimes fun isn't always a important part of this equation. I also consistently see people who have been complaining about SV but are completely resistant to bans or changes, like I do not know what you expect. While I feel Kokoloko is not appropriate currently, njnp making this post is still beneficial to the community as we are going to reach a point where things are going to need to be tossed so having this discussion with the community is better to have sooner than later as it feels we have been insanely divided in several ways all generation.

Guys that have been annoying me: literally everything that nj mentions on his "first" slate

 

[skippergamez]

Here’s my opinion atm

I think there should be a suspect test BEFORE kokoloko.

I think if we suspect one thing and get the ball rolling, then we can see how the meta unravels after the test. Then, we can determine, “hey we banned Kyurem through suspect test, but now Serpeiror is freaking obscene” then you suspect Serperior, then Iron Boulder, while you could say “wouldn’t Kokoloko prevent this stretched out process” I HUGELY prefer quickly timed suspects than Kokoloko or 1 Month gap suspects.. How would we decide what to suspect. We could have the council rank each OTR mons based on order of preferred suspects.

Pokemon	Finch	Ruft	Ausma	njnp	Lily
	1	2	1	3	1
	2	3	3	1	3
:Deoxys-S:	4	1	2	4	4
	3	4	5	2	2
	6	6	7	6	5
	7	5	4	5	7
:gourging fire:	5	8	6	8	6
	8	7	8	7	8

So the order would be: Kyurem (1.6), Serperior (2.4), Deo-S (3.0), Iron Boulder (3.2), Volcarona (5.6), Roaring Moon (6.0), Gourging Fire (6.6), Kingambit (7.6). In theory you would test Kyurem first, then Serperior, etc

I just feel like 15 bans at once is a little much, 5 is enough, 7 feels stretched. If you know what I mean, nothing feels broken. I would support banning 5 mons and respecting them. I feel like we would waste time resuspecting 15 Pokémon. When we could do roughly 5 at a time.

 

[ima]

They sneered at the broken checks brokens argument but the moment overpanicky ban happy mods have to hold their horses due to new releases, the meta seems to adjust itself into a mostly organic representation of what’s broken and spammed vs what isn’t. Currently, we have a meta broken off from the shed tail cheese / unaware stall of the initial sv meta, more diverse than the bax hail infested home meta, vastly superior to the gliscor zap lu spam of dlc 1 meta, a barren wasteland that houses little more than grassy terrain Strats or gliscor stall. As it stands, we have a meta where all those Strats are concurrently viable, with good wealth distribution among usable mons to curb the past hoarding of wealth committed by the likes of tusk and gambit; the number of threats has brought a renaissance to strategizing for team synergy, creating move techs, adapting to meta teras, and general outplayablilty. Please do not take a ban first test later approach in a meta rich with unexplored combinations, checks, and counters to the real broken strategies. If strategies like sneasler grassy become overwhelmingly spammed and boast extraordinary win rates, or if something like gliscor proves to be too centralizing still, we can then look to those specific threats and take action. Just my two cents, trust me I know better.
- tiering goat

Ps stop banning shit in general I’m on this site to play Pokémon not the lack thereof come on bruh

I am speaking as a council member, but these are my own opinions, not a post of all of our collective thoughts.


I don't think the koko method is the best option for us at the moment.
The meta at the moment feels.. interesting. There is a LOT to do in the builder. That is one of the big upsides to me, but at the same time it feels overwhelming. Game freak gave us a lot to work with this time around.

I agree with a lot of what CTC has said here, outside of Sneasler (it's banned ) Banning anything off-rip to me currently feels like a mistake.
Last DLC introduced Ursa-Moon, which stuck around for quite a while before people started realizing this thing is absolute bonkers. I don't think there is a 'mon in this DLC currently that matches the prowess/strength of what we saw at that time, but I would love to discuss Pokemon I feel could make it over the edge as time goes on. We are only two weeks into this meta, which is why I'm mostly hesitant on jumping the gun and banning everything.

That being said here are my first-takes on all of the new (and existing) Pokemon that have been mentioned in this thread.

---

Gouging Fire to me feels like a more intensive/bulkier version of ZardX. DD 3Atks is a very valid set, as is DD Morning Sun and Bulwark DTail variants. There's quite a bit that you can do with this guy. Having access to protect that burns makes the cherry on top, which makes me so adamant on rating him naturally above the others. Protosynthesis gives this 'mon an insane boost, and moves like Heat Crash are completely justifiable due to how strong naturally Gouging Fire is. Also being able to Thanos snap 'mons like Clefable under the sun is complete bonkers

+1 252+ Atk Tera Fire Gouging Fire Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Sun: 520-612 (131.9 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

To me, this is my definition of stepping over the edge of balanced and broken. Infinite creativity of sets, the bulk of Zygarde (basically the same hp/defense stats!) and access to moves that naturally give it such a boost over everything else, yeah I do think this deserves a suspect one way or another in the future.

---

Oh god he's back. I personally do not think this guy is healthy in any metagame, as shown from the previous DLC there's really not much you can do if your opponent is operating the correct set/spread, with Tera it's almost unkillable. Not only that but the flexibility of sets such as Brick Break or Taunt offers a lot more than usual this time around. I'd bring this guy up to #2, juust below Gouging Fire. Not only that but being able to operate both Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire in sun is just absurd.

---

Welcome back, Moth. Making its return to OU is one of the biggest powerhouses of the decade, making its mark ever since it was introduced in Gen 5.
Bringing the moth back is something you have to question as to whether it was the correct choice or not. To put it out there, I was one of the votes to not quickban Volcarona at the time, as I would have much preferred a longer discussion with a suspect since this would be the first time Volcarona would ever be banned in an OU metagame. However, as time went on the more I realized how meta-defining he would/could have been, not only checking most fairies but being able to set up on all of them is a very big reason to put Volc on all of your teams. The question is if I think it's much different now than before - probably not. I still think that quiver terablast is extremely tough to prep against, especially with 'mons like Gouging Fire lurking around. Personally, I've been using QD Terablast Dragon to be able to somewhat counteract Gouging Fire while also being able to set up on Pokemon such as Wellspring. I think it's a question of if Moth is a necessary evil to the tier with Pokemon like Enamorus and Valiant roaming around using Stellar, and if this 'mon would be banned, how badly would we need to take action against the Stellar Fairies? As I've stated before there are a lot of powerhouses roaming about currently and it's hard to gauge what's necessary to stabilize the tier currently as is. That being said I am putting this at #3 on my list due to how controversial the matchup moth can get, as well as the flexibility of sets you can operate with.

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This ranks 4th on my list due to how annoying freeze can be in-game and the guessing game of if it's DD or Choice Specs/Special. Alongside Tera the reasoning for banning Kyurem would be almost the same as how it was handled in SS except now it has Tera to back up its defenses. In short, this Pokemon is annoying! But the fact it is 4th on my list shows to me personally how crazy the new meta is currently.

---

In theory these three 'mons to me pose the strongest uses of Stellar currently. I genuinely do not think Valiant ever needs to be banned. He constructs offense and fixes a lot of issues with most teams on its own, as well as providing blanket checks to Pokemon like Kingambit (with encore/stellar). I feel as it would be a mistake to ban him. Enamorus on the other hand is something I can see (but currently, I don't think deserves) being banned in the future due to Stellar, and is probably the best Stellar user at the moment. Serperior has insane room for creativity at the moment and I'm not totally sure about it right now. In any case these three Pokemon feel like they create an invisible line on what to prep for currently, as well as the other 'mons I mentioned above.

---

Ever since I started playing this game in BW, every time Deoxys was introduced to the tier it got quickbanned/suspected almost a week or two later.
Wow, I never would have thought he'd be somewhat balanced in this generation.

That being said Deoxys does offer a shit ton of flexibility for teams. Screens, spikes, offensive, Deoxys-D I think are all very valid uses. And you can 100% make the argument of a ban due to the gymnastics Deoxys could potentially pull off. I do not think it poses more of a problem than the others mentioned though, from what I've seen on ladder and tests.

---

After many, many months of trial and error from Game Freak's end, they still struggle to give us more Steel Pokemon. This is an issue I have that strikes a nerve because while Gambit and Gholdengo are both inherently crazy to deal with, they both provide a lot of balance with our metagame, being the two prominent steels throughout every single DLC. When Game Freak gives us more to work with, I think Gambit could potentially either get the boot, or the meta would be stable enough to fully counteract him. Gholdengo is just another topic on its own that we would have to discuss later in the future, as it belongs in the Hazards conversation.

The addition of Skarmory

and

however, is very nice and incredibly noteworthy. I do believe it's a step in the right direction in terms of stabilizing Gambit, although I still believe it could be an issue regardless.

One thing is clear: We need fairy answers. And one of our steels isn't even resistant to fairy.

---

I think this 'mon can break balance fairly easily but I am not truly convinced it's broken yet. There are a lot of sets roaming around, I personally have been using this Pokemon with booster energy on Grassy terrain with CM. I've also seen Weather Ball Tera Water roaming around, which is honestly really cool. Overall I still need to think about this guy. It's a really cool and versatile 'mon on paper, but the fact you can run this on a sun team with Gouging / Moon roaming around just feels like complete insanity lol

---

I do not have a fair opinion on these Pokemon yet:

They feel incredibly new, some of them feel very weak to common types and overall I'm not sure what to make of them yet. Iron Boulder is obviously strong, but its typing inherently feels like it struggles with a lot.

Archaludon feels solid on rain, but I am not sure if it's meta-defining yet.

Iron Crown is really cool to use but I am not as experienced with it as I am with the others. I've also not seen it as much on high ladder yet.

Keldeo is an amazing addition to this generation but I am not entirely sure if he should be on the radar yet.

---

I would like to provide more insight on String Cheese, but I feel it is a huge topic to go about and I would much rather provide my thoughts on him in a separate thread. Yes, it is also on my radar and always has been. I listen to the community and I always strive to but words can't really describe how badly Game Freak fucked up our hazard removal, let alone how badly they nerfed our Steels this generation. It is a powerhouse topic by itself and if a ban was implemented it would change the meta by x100.

---

Anyways I think I ran out of words to type. This is just my opinion WRT Pokemon on my radar and what I think people should currently look out for. I am having a blast and I would not type this without trying it all out for myself.

I peaked top 3 a couple days ago and overall just love the new Pokemon and am continuously reading your thoughts and opinions. Just want to let you guys know your voices are not being unheard. Finch is doing a fantastic job at this as the Tier Leader and I am hoping this thread can have more of our council members open up more with their thoughts.

Peace and love

 

[MANNAT]

SPL is simply too close for us to actually get to anything resembling a "stable" metagame. Banning over the top broken shit like Terapagos is fine but going overboard and banning 7 mons at once feels too reactionary in a tier that's in a state of flux right now. A big appeal in these kinds of metagames is experimenting with all of the tools we have available. To be frank, none of the mons listed in the OP are really broken enough to justify a quickban given current metagame conditions and I'd much rather see OU tiered out naturally.

 

[Srn]

I understand many of you believe that the meta is better than it's ever been, with every playstyle viable, and tons of variety! At the same time, a lot of what you see in high ladder is simply meow/kyurem balance. I don't think both of these can be true, and in the future I expect these balance teams to continue to dominate, which isn't necessarily a sign of a healthy meta, just like it wasn't during the gliscor meta. Just look at the first OUPL game in DLC2. Is this bursting with variety? Is Skarm/Pex/Fat ground/Fast knock really better than zap/Tinglu/glowking/zama on both sides? Obviously no shade to either player, you simply bring the best and most consistent team when there's no dlc2 tour replays to try to study and cteam. We can wait and see how the first few weeks look like in OUPL and the DLC2 kickoff tour, but I am not predicting nearly as much diversity as is being celebrated here.

What changed to make balance better now than before? Skarmory and Gliscor introduce new options for Spikers, and that's definitely an increase in defensive powercreep at play here. But I think the most important part is the increase in offensive powercreep in balance's speed control options. Weavile and Meowscarada getting Triple Axel make them 2x better as progress makers via knock off and general speed control. To me, this is the main reason why balance is strong right now, and in conjunction with all the factors in the OP by njnp, you are looking at a very narrow set of consistent options and a very wide array of MU fishing. This isn't a good thing.

So where do we go from here? The kokoloko tiering method sounds fun and all, but does this mean that a pokemon needs 60% supermajority support to be unbanned? Are we ok with 41% of voters being able to keep a mon banned? If I am misunderstanding something here, pls lmk.

For those who haven't read this article on kokoloko's tiering system, I would recommend it. I would like to highlight this phrase

We achieve this by banning everything that is potentially "broken" before we begin and then proceed to test the BLs (Ubers) by reintroducing them back into UU (OU) one at a time.

To me, there are SO MANY potentially "broken" pokemon in this tier thanks to the volatility of tera. To draw an arbitrary line in the sand between the likes of pokemon such as Serperior and Waterpon is very difficult. If we go even a little loose with "potentially broken," we can easily justify banning half this tier. This is the main reason I don't think this system can work.

If we're unhappy with the general state of the tier and we're looking for a place to start improving things, I would reluctantly suggest looking at a Tera Blast suspect. I think removing this move could reduce some of the powercreep and volatility of this tier.
Imo the big 4 abusers are these

With some viable, honorable mentions here

You can click on the sprites to see an example, but they're not the only sets that can be run. I may have missed a few, which only goes to show how unpredictable this move can be.

Why did I say "reluctantly"

There's a few reasons why I personally don't like a suspect on Tera Blast.

1) Tera Blast itself is not used that frequently on any of these pokemon except the first 3, and I can't say with confidence that any of these pokemon would get banned via suspect, so...what's the rationale for actually banning tera blast? If it isn't directly breaking any OU mons, and you're instead trying to reduce the overall power level and volatility of the meta, wouldn't you rather just target tera instead?

2) Tera Blast in a vacuum is just an 80 base power special normal type move. It's not broken or even good. What makes Tera Blast anything remotely worthy of suspecting is Tera, and we do not tier competitive metas by targeting "balanced" little slices of a broken pie. We didn't ban Jet Punch, we banned palafin, and tiering should work that way, because we primarily tier pokemon. Moves, abilities, items, etc are all secondary to that.

I feel like every real reason to target tera blast goes double to target tera instead, but few people are willing to step up and do that. All that said, if a majority of the community wants to suspect tera blast, then I think the tiering philosophy can be bent to make an exception or whatever, because this is a unique case. Nobody wrote down tiering philosophy a decade ago with a bullshit mechanic like Tera in mind. Tera Blast is something I would vote to ban, but not enthusiastically.

After a Tera Blast suspect has passed, I think we would have had enough time to let the tier stabilize and it should be more clear what mons to try tackling for traditional style suspect tests. Stuff like Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon are definitely at the top of my watchlist, but things can change. I'd like to see at least a few months of attempting to balance a tera meta before finally moving onto a suspect test of tera itself. This should be a cut and dry ban/no ban vote at this point.

To anybody who wants a Tera suspect asap: I would really ask you to reconsider. A ban on tera just has no shot rn, and if it fails now, I do not think we get a third shot at this. A tera meta has to try (and fail) to be balanced and healthy in order for a "fair" tera suspect, and I think everybody in good faith can agree with this timeline. The outcome of this second test later down the line should be the final one. If you want to rush a tera suspect through, it's probably because you know a ban result has no chance rn, and you just want your preferred outcome. If you're confident tera will stay, then it shouldn't matter whether it's now or later. I'm open to any other potential reasoning on why we need to suspect Tera asap though!

Remember folks: The more options you have, the more you need to prepare for.

TL;DR - If a Tera Blast suspect is very popular, do it. Otherwise, wait for the tier to settle and suspect normally. Suspect Tera much later, not now.

 

[Avira]

If this was anything like the initial DLC1 meta, I would be in favour of using the Kokoloko method as there were so many immediately broken threats, such as Baxcalibur, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Roaring Moon, Sneasler, and Ogerpon-Wellspring, but as it stands, much like Finchinator, Ruft, and ima, I do not believe this would be appropriate for the OU tier at the time as it would cause massive uncertainty with how the bans would affect the meta. Banning Pokemon that don't have the community support for a ban like Volcarona earlier this year would not be ideal.

This is before going into how almost nothing right now is as clearly broken as the offensive threats that were banned from OU after the Teal Mask was released. I know Vert hasn't posted yet, and I almost never agree with him on a mon's brokenness, but I am glad that he'll almost certainly be against using the Kokoloko method at this time and that he was recently admitted to the OU Council. Srn just posted before me that what we could do to reduce the volatility in OU right away is banning Tera Blast, and I do believe this would be the best move to make if we're considering a nuclear option.

I believe tiering as normal is the best option. The OU Council has done a fabulous job this gen under Finchinator's leadership aside from the Volcarona quickban. If OU was still handled by ABR, the tier would be unplayable, and we might even have unthinkable stuff in OU given ABR shared that he wished OU to start with all the cover legendaries and no bans whatsoever in the past. People should thank their lucky stars that the current OU council is as receptive to the community's wishes than what we had in the past. This is the the best job any OU Council has done with its stewardship of the tier.

Having said that, if the OU council were to decide on some quickbans soon, the only mons I would support a quickban for are Gholdengo, even if it's not broken right now since it'd have the largest impact on the meta and would reduce the power of hazard stack and decrease the need for Ting-Lu, and Roaring Moon since it is still almost as broken as it was before in the Teal Mask meta with only Archaludon under Grassy Terrain being a new check and Raging Bolt if Roaring Moon Terastalizes into the Flying type being able to revenge kill it with Thunderclap. Nothing else deserves a quickban at this time.

 

[658Greninja]

I think the Kokoloko method was warranted for the previous metas. We only had a few months to play and balance each meta which would make the normal method of suspect tests too slow, but I don’t think its necessary in DLC2 for a few reasons.

-No more upcoming DLCs which means the time we have to balance the metagame is much wider.

-Nothing in the meta strikes me as immediately banworthy minus some exceptions. Though I would not call it balanced, the meta is in a playable state. At least you have more options to build with.

-As MANNAT stated, going through so many bans a few weeks before SPL would be too reactionary. Keeping most of these threats during SPL would be more beneficial to tiering decisions. It’d be easier to balance the metagame when we see how they play out in a big tournament setting.

There is a group of mons that I think may be a problem later, should be prioritized in suspect tests, or dealt with immediately.

Get it outta here!

Nothing changed to make Moon any less tolerable. Still the same bullshit with Tera Flying and still has no reliable counterplay besides priority. The only thing I would quickban.

Might wanna address.

For the first time, Deo-S is broken besides its ability to set up hazards. +2 Modest LO Psycho one-shots Glowking while nearly OHKOing Ghold. The 180 speed tier is ludicrous, letting it outspeed everything unboosted with Modest and can chose to outspeed everything that isn’t in Booster Valiant’s speed tier or above. Rkilling attempts from Gambit get foiled by Tera Fighting. Its shit offensive typing means nothing when it 2HKOs/OHKOs resists or bulky special walls. Gambit at first didn’t strike me as problematic in this meta with new additions like Volc, Skarm, and Gfire. Skarm especially being the most consistent check we could ask for since it outsped Adamant Gambit and 1v1d it with ID + BP. Then I fought 2 Jolly Gambits that 2HKOd my Skarm and my mood was the equivalent of an existential crisis. Gambit’s pick-your-poison nature makes it annoying to account for in the builder as it could throw off any counterplay depending on the set.

Keep an eye on.

Due to how prominent hazards are, Kyu rn isn’t too hot. However Specs still basically has no switch ins and has several sets with different checks, which is what got it banned last gen. Volc has been catching up due to Tera Ground, Water, and even Dragon being used. It is very reliant on Tera to sweep and many of the fire types Volc uses Tera Ground Blast on to rkill are often paired with bulky Waters or Rilla. Ghold gets threatened by alot of the new offensive threats and could be abused by G-Fire, Volc, and Gambit for setup turns. So it sometimes gets discouraged of being used. However it has warped the hazard meta since the very beginning and that can not be ignored. Gliscor is kept in check rn by Skarm and multiple offensive threats spamming Ice moves, but I cannot understate how comically easy it is for it to make progress with hazards + toxic + knock.

Not really a problem.

G-Fire is a really cool addition. Good defensive profile + a wincon. Yes you could pull up the calcs for CB G-Fire 2HKOing Dozo under Sun, but the amount of support to make that work is no different from making CB Victini under sun work. I’ve found checks like Lando, Tusk, Dozo, PhysD Prim, and Garg to be effective at their roles. Serp is annoying asf, but it is reliant on Tera or Glare proc’s to break through its checks. Plus 113 Speed is not hard to intercept, especially with the T-Axel cats and Pult who can threaten it behind Sub. Enam is great, Stellar lets it snowball games. Due to its reliance on Tera and the apparent rock weakness, I cannot really consider it broken or problematic. Boulder is a healthy addition to the meta, being a one-time form of speed control and a cleaner, but it has a fair share of reliable checks. Rock/Psychic is terrible defensively and it often has to choose between CC. Zen Headbutt, and/or EQ which gets it walled by something.

 

[CTC]

I understand many of you believe that the meta is better than it's ever been, with every playstyle viable, and tons of variety! At the same time, a lot of what you see in high ladder is simply meow/kyurem balance. I don't think both of these can be true, and in the future I expect these balance teams to continue to dominate, which isn't necessarily a sign of a healthy meta, just like it wasn't during the gliscor meta. Just look at the first OUPL game in DLC2. Is this bursting with variety? Is Skarm/Pex/Fat ground/Fast knock really better than zap/Tinglu/glowking/zama on both sides? Obviously no shade to either player, you simply bring the best and most consistent team when there's no dlc2 tour replays to try to study and cteam. We can wait and see how the first few weeks look like in OUPL and the DLC2 kickoff tour, but I am not predicting nearly as much diversity as is being celebrated here.

What changed to make balance better now than before? Skarmory and Gliscor introduce new options for Spikers, and that's definitely an increase in defensive powercreep at play here. But I think the most important part is the increase in offensive powercreep in balance's speed control options. Weavile and Meowscarada getting Triple Axel make them 2x better as progress makers via knock off and general speed control. To me, this is the main reason why balance is strong right now, and in conjunction with all the factors in the OP by njnp, you are looking at a very narrow set of consistent options and a very wide array of MU fishing. This isn't a good thing.

So where do we go from here? The kokoloko tiering method sounds fun and all, but does this mean that a pokemon needs 60% supermajority support to be unbanned? Are we ok with 41% of voters being able to keep a mon banned? If I am misunderstanding something here, pls lmk.

For those who haven't read this article on kokoloko's tiering system, I would recommend it. I would like to highlight this phrase

To me, there are SO MANY potentially "broken" pokemon in this tier thanks to the volatility of tera. To draw an arbitrary line in the sand between the likes of pokemon such as Serperior and Waterpon is very difficult. If we go even a little loose with "potentially broken," we can easily justify banning half this tier. This is the main reason I don't think this system can work.

If we're unhappy with the general state of the tier and we're looking for a place to start improving things, I would reluctantly suggest looking at a Tera Blast suspect. I think removing this move could reduce some of the powercreep and volatility of this tier.
Imo the big 4 abusers are these

With some viable, honorable mentions here

You can click on the sprites to see an example, but they're not the only sets that can be run. I may have missed a few, which only goes to show how unpredictable this move can be.

Why did I say "reluctantly"

There's a few reasons why I personally don't like a suspect on Tera Blast.

1) Tera Blast itself is not used that frequently on any of these pokemon except the first 3, and I can't say with confidence that any of these pokemon would get banned via suspect, so...what's the rationale for actually banning tera blast? If it isn't directly breaking any OU mons, and you're instead trying to reduce the overall power level and volatility of the meta, wouldn't you rather just target tera instead?

2) Tera Blast in a vacuum is just an 80 base power special normal type move. It's not broken or even good. What makes Tera Blast anything remotely worthy of suspecting is Tera, and we do not tier competitive metas by targeting "balanced" little slices of a broken pie. We didn't ban Jet Punch, we banned palafin, and tiering should work that way, because we primarily tier pokemon. Moves, abilities, items, etc are all secondary to that.

I feel like every real reason to target tera blast goes double to target tera instead, but few people are willing to step up and do that. All that said, if a majority of the community wants to suspect tera blast, then I think the tiering philosophy can be bent to make an exception or whatever, because this is a unique case. Nobody wrote down tiering philosophy a decade ago with a bullshit mechanic like Tera in mind. Tera Blast is something I would vote to ban, but not enthusiastically.

After a Tera Blast suspect has passed, I think we would have had enough time to let the tier stabilize and it should be more clear what mons to try tackling for traditional style suspect tests. Stuff like Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon are definitely at the top of my watchlist, but things can change. I'd like to see at least a few months of attempting to balance a tera meta before finally moving onto a suspect test of tera itself. This should be a cut and dry ban/no ban vote at this point.

To anybody who wants a Tera suspect asap: I would really ask you to reconsider. A ban on tera just has no shot rn, and if it fails now, I do not think we get a third shot at this. A tera meta has to try (and fail) to be balanced and healthy in order for a "fair" tera suspect, and I think everybody in good faith can agree with this timeline. The outcome of this second test later down the line should be the final one. If you want to rush a tera suspect through, it's probably because you know a ban result has no chance rn, and you just want your preferred outcome. I'm open to any other potential reasoning on why we need to suspect Tera asap though!

Remember folks: The more options you have, the more you need to prepare for.

TL;DR - If a Tera Blast suspect is very popular, do it. Otherwise, wait for the tier to settle and suspect normally. Suspect Tera much later, not now.

I have seen many headass posts but lets address this one specifically since it offers some evidence actually in favor of my argument.
First, 'Is this bursting with variety? Is Skarm/Pex/Fat ground/Fast knock really better than zap/Tinglu/glowking/zama on both sides?'
judging from the oupl game u linked, 10 unique mons out of 12 is not 'bursting with variety' to u? look at scl finals and tb games, do u see a single game without zama pult gambit ground on either side i mean please i implore u to find one such game to show the past meta brimming with diversity that you are dying to return to trad for.

Next. 'But I think the most important part is the increase in offensive powercreep in balance's speed control options. Weavile and Meowscarada getting Triple Axel make them 2x better as progress makers via knock off and general speed control. To me, this is the main reason why balance is strong right now, and in conjunction with all the factors in the OP by njnp, you are looking at a very narrow set of consistent options and a very wide array of MU fishing'
ok so you are telling me that more options to hit annoying mons of the past like zap lu scor meow, options like knock to force progress vs sit and do nothing stall forcing it to adopt new strategies, and more mons such as kyurem to put pressure on fat teams whereas the booster mons bolster the prowess of ho, the meta is actually LESS diverse? so you trad boys parade around the idea that all the new shit is broken, and the new shit is so diverse and flexible they boost basically any team theyre on, yet only one style aka balance is viable? so which is it, the new mons are only broken and usable on balance or do they offer diverse boosts to different strategies in this meta?

If we want to look at individual mons, I agree we can wait for survey results and weighted usage stats to gauge the brokeness of mons like gouging fire, who alongside meow are my best hitters of DLC 2, undeniably. However, every mon has flaws and counterplay. I have used every DLC 2 mon and built teams around them, testing on high ladder w fiends like vert who occupy the top spot longer than aubrey graham. I dont think anything is immediately over the top like ursaluna where coverage is perfect and u get a mix of longevity and immediate power, somewhat of a perfect mon. similar mons like gouging fire, bolt, kyurem and company exist, but they each have flaws. Instead of banning them, I think introducing more borderlines such as bax back into the meta can create another situation of offensively checkign threats. For example, cry all uwant about ground volc, but u get a kill with it and now i send out bax with shard in the back, u have already exhausted tera so i have the upper hand. Similarly, use your gouging fire but my lando/tusk/dozo/primarina will still come in and blow ur nose off. There is counterplay to everything, stop crying about fishing and randomness, notice how all the top players consistently perform with little randomness or variation involved, no matter the meta changes. Over the last week or so I have used/given teams to people at the top of the ladder ranging from cheese ho to stall, even rage built some stall ct to snipe some pussies. They all work. Please player base have some respect for yourself and accept that no matter the tiering actions taken, the top players arent better cuz 'mu fish', and that losing to the 'broken mons' everyone has access to isnt the real reason your spl campaign has fallen short for the 5th season in a row. Just let the real players play w unmitigated options as long as they are fair and balanced, until proven otherwise.
Lastly, if you are still having the conversation about banning THE core mechanic and its extension (tera blast), please help yourself to the nintendo switch and hit that custom wifi battle playa, we here to play some real mons
No personal shots at anyone: this is not disparagement, this is a conversation.
Thank you for tuning in.

 

[viivian]

is worthy of immediate tiering action in my eyes. reliable counterplay to it is still very limited going into DLC2 and it steamrolls every common playstyle in the current metagame w/ DD + taunt, from stall to balance to HO. a quickban vote, preferably ASAP, would be ideal for it as it has no business residing in OU in my eyes.

with that out of the way, i believe we should keep an eye on ,, , , , and as the meta develops. i dont find any of them as pressing as RM but i think they could cause some serious problems in the long run if left unchecked. so i think its important to be wary of them going forward so we can act accordingly once they get out of hand.

, , , and anything else i did not mention in the above two paragraphs are all perfectly fine in my eyes and no tiering action is required on them. i think these are all incredibly overhyped and cries for bans will likely die down as time goes on and people learn how to counter each of them effectively.

if this is any indicator i do not find kokoloko tiering to be necessary whatsoever for this metagame. feel free to disagree but i find that its really only roaring moon who needs to go ASAP. everything else could use some more time until we as a community can reach a consensus on them.

 

[Dreadfury]

I'm not a particularly strong player, so take this with a grain of salt.

I'm extremely opposed to the Kokoloko method as a whole, just as a concept, and I'm of the opinion that employing it would be disastrous for SV OU. This doesn't mean I have anything against anyone who is in favor of employing it, but it is an opinion I absolutely do not share. It comes across as too immediate and too radical a departure from the previously-held Council opinion that nothing was quickban-worthy at this time and would only make sense to employ if the tier was in a dire situation (think early DLC1 OU which I think is one of the worst OU metagames I've ever played, by no fault of the Council's), which I firmly believe is not the case. SV OU is certainly not in the healthiest spot right now, but I think it's in the most balanced state it's been in since before Walking Wake's release in March and that it's more than playable enough that we can afford to keep the metagame as it is right now for a little longer. So many of these proposed quickbans would basically just make the metagame "DLC1 minus Gholdengo," and I firmly believe DLC1 was a disastrous metagame far beyond hazard control or a lack thereof.

Another issue I take with employing the Kokoloko method in SV OU is that it comes across as a more extreme version of Volcarona's quickban from HOME, and Volcarona's quickban in order to stabilize a meta just in time for a major Smogon tournament was an extremely divisive and controversial topic within the broader community, to the point where Finch at the bare minimum said that was a mistake the Council wouldn't make again. Now, as a disclaimer, I actually don't think the Volcarona QB was bad on any level, largely agree with the decision to quickban it, and don't think the metagame was necessarily worse (even if it wasn't directly improved IMO) as a result of Volc's quickban. But to employ what is basically "the Volcarona quickban but with more than a half-dozen mons including Volcarona itself on the table" just has terrible optics, even if it could hypothetically improve the metagame.

Now, on the topic of specific mons that have been brought up:

I know a lot of people absolutely hate this mon, but I think Gholdengo highlights a bigger, more systematic issue and as such is not a mon I think is banworthy, let alone quickbanworthy, on its own. The fact of the matter is, mons like Tusk and Cinderace already have favorable matchups into Gholdengo and Defoggers like Mandibuzz and Corviknight are immensely flawed mons on their own, with or without Good as Gold spinblocking against Defog. Removing Gholdengo doesn't bring back Defog Zapdos/Torn-T/Moltres/Gliscor; that ship sailed as soon as DLC2 didn't bring it back as a TM. The only Defoggers we "gain" out of a Gholdengo ban are Corviknight (which doesn't fit on many offensive structures and often just sits there and clicks Roost a few times when facing opposing offensive structures itself) and Mandibuzz (which gets completely rolled by Gliscor and doesn't have the best tools to deal with mons like Glimmora, Encore H-Samurott, also doesn't really fit on more offensive structures, etc.). These mons aren't particularly fantastic right now but banning Gholdengo outright wouldn't really make them amazing since it's not too difficult to overwhelm these mons with or without the string cheese man blocking Defog. I just don't think banning Gholdengo would actually improve the metagame, and I'm of the opinion that suspect tests and quickbans should always be made with the goal of improving the tier.

I don't like this mon. If anything deserves a QB, it's Roaring Moon. If anything deserves a suspect test afterwards, it might be this; I think the hazard-centric metagame overwhelms Kyurem a lot, to the point where those terrifying Specs and DD+Loaded Dice sets aren't always coming in without eating a lot of chip and those HDB sets suffer from a lack of consistently high damage output.

If anything were to be quickbanned, it's this above anything else. Fuck this mon, fuck STAB Knock, fuck Tera Flying Acrobatics, and fuck Taunt+DD in particular. The only thing I can say about it that isn't paired with the caveat that it's just very strong is that its new Scarf set is genuinely important for Sun teams' matchup against Iron Boulder, which completely curbstomps the archetype otherwise. But otherwise, you could probably ban this one overnight and a lot of folks really wouldn't get too bent out of shape about it. Very stupid mon.

this mon hasn't been super problematic since late-DLC1 and with ID Skarmory existing this mon now has a very, very reliable defensive answer. Kingambit's Sucker Punch still maintains its status as the most influential single move in SV OU, but I'm of the opinion that it has gone from the bane of every offensive team's existence to acting as insurance against the new fast threats we've been seeing lately on these offensive teams. Gambit's still obviously an amazing mon (and I really hope everything I said prior doesn't imply it isn't anything but amazing), but I think it's genuinely healthy for the tier now.

the matchup moth does matchup moth things. I wouldn't be bent out of shape if this left, but I also think Tera Blast is the issue on this front, as is the case with numerous massive threats, i.e. Raging Bolt, some Gambit variants, some Kyurem sets, Enamorus, and Serperior. Volcarona on its own provides nice defensive utility thanks to Flame Body, a 4x Grass resist to cover Rillaboom's Grassy Glide, and Fighting/Bug resistances, but with Tera it's clearly quite a problematic mon.

I like this mon a lot now. It's obviously very good and extremely consistent and I think it's the #1 mon in OU right now without question, but I'm finding that it's not too overwhelmingly good with any one set. The lead sets are consistent but the tier has a great many leads that match up quite favorably against it. The 4-Attacks (or 3-Attacks with Taunt) and Nasty Plot sets are a bit harder to deal with, but I also think Deoxys-S lacks a lot of immediate power and suffers from some extreme 4MSS and a bit of a Tera debacle which puts it in a strange spot where it can run a whole lot of good options and a lot of good Tera types to buff specific options or make it harder to check offensively but it can't just beat entire teams on preview with the right coverage+Tera type like some Tera users (like the moth, of course, but also Roaring Moon which can just get the job done with DD, Tera Flying Acro, Knock, and one of Taunt/Edge/EQ) can. Deo-S just doesn't have the damage output to break teams easily like that and it's not bulky enough to find free setup turns, especially since many players will naturally be conditioned to hit the thing as hard as possible.

this is a Tera (Blast) issue since it just gets coverage it had no business ever having access to, but the end result of said issue is that it's obviously the best it's ever been. I'm not, however, sold on Serperior being on the same "tier" of problematic as mons like Roaring Moon or Kyurem are. Glare is annoying and very consistent, though.

this is also 100% just a Tera Blast issue. Enamorus itself has objectively not been problematic whatsoever prior to Tera Stellar existing.

Probably the best revenge killer in the tier when its Booster is intact, but it has some nasty 4MSS beyond SD+Mighty Cleave+EQ and is very prone to getting dealt with by the tier's many powerful priority options. This thing's typing is, as a baseline, quite awful and it has to depend a lot on Tera to get out of dicey matchups against mons like Rilla or Gambit. Very good mon, but I don't think it's even slightly quickban-worthy either.

this tier has been grossly lacking good offensive Electrics for a while now and I think Raging Bolt fills that hole very nicely. That being said, CM sets are quite scary. Shouldn't be on the table for a QB whatsoever.

another mon that I think kinda leans into being a bit on the problematic side. It's kinda weird that all the mons I find most problematic are all DD sweepers, but that's neither here nor there. This is an incredibly bulky DD sweeper and it's not the easiest to revenge kill due to its great bulk. I absolutely don't think this is on the table for a quickban, but I wouldn't be overly upset if it got banned either.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter, except these cents are from a country where they're worth slightly less than they're worth in the US. That analogy made more sense in my head since I am from the US and all, but whatever; the TL;DR is that my two cents may not be worth as much as someone else's. I'm not an ultra-qualified player or anything, so my opinion doesn't hold the same weight as does that of a Council member or a tournament player or anything, but I just don't think the Kokoloko method would be a good approach for this tier, especially not now.

 

[pika pal]

I think this might legitimately be the worst time for a Kokoloko tiering approach in OU, both in terms of time allotted to work with tiering the Meta in question (we have until the next mainline entries since it's been 3 Gens since we had "standard" remakes compatible with the modern Dex and the way Home works means a Legends game doesn't even introduce tradeback style move updates) AND in terms of the actual Metagame we are playing (no significant number of mons stand out as broken enough that people are clamoring for mass quick action: we have , a freed recent Uber, and then // are moreso in "watch them" territory).

Beginning of Gen, Home, and DLC1 presented much stricter time tables AND much larger rosters of things needing to be addressed immediately (Debut had Flutter Mane, Palafin, Iron Bundle, Annihilape, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Shed Tail, Espathra, all but one of which were by Quick Ban) by comparison, so the tiering approach when suggested there made a lot more sense as an option specifically to go into a less-volatile subsequent Meta. Honestly the fact that DLC1 ended with several things people wanted acted on (Gholdengo, Kingambit retest, Manaphy, Ogerpon-W) and DLC2 is still off to what many seem to consider a pretty stable (fun or not) start is both miraculous and a case against jumping to quick tiering action.

Also this might be because I'm not a tournament player, so please don't take this as objective, but while I think events like SPL are excellent data gathering or points of references for meta trends or emerging concerns, jumping to tiering action to rush for potential balance improvements on their deadline should not dictate the tiering methodology in and of itself. Tournament events represent competition between highly skilled competitors in a ruleset, so changing things specifically while that event is bearing down soon goes against this idea, since the new meta, even if more balanced, is one with less time to have learned and thus demonstrate understanding/skill in (not to say the players lack it, but that the newer a format is the more volatile it during those early days). It's a smaller scale version of the new toy syndrome that permeates a major Dex update: Players will try everything to see what effects those additions and shake-ups have and it takes time naturally to identify which among those are consistent vs being unprepared since their performance hasn't been fully assessed yet. This is not to say bans should not happen while close to SPL either, but my point is "SPL Timing" and "Decision to take action" should not have a causal relationship; the only factor observed and surveyed for should be "does this presence make the tier less skill-based to an egregious degree" to be consistent.

The calls for Kokoloko tiering may have been valid in the earlier SV Metas, but those were very different Game States both to apply the testing to AND in which people were making the suggestion. As evidenced by the replies in this thread, the method does not have nearly as much support for DLC2/finalized SV, and being in agreement with those opinions I'm going to abstain from a proper Kokoloko subject list (the 4 I mentioned before being the ones I consider worth of ATTENTION but not definitive action at the moment)

 

[Srn]

Of course, let us converse

I have seen many headass posts but lets address this one specifically since it offers some evidence actually in favor of my argument.
First, 'Is this bursting with variety? Is Skarm/Pex/Fat ground/Fast knock really better than zap/Tinglu/glowking/zama on both sides?'
judging from the oupl game u linked, 10 unique mons out of 12 is not 'bursting with variety' to u? look at scl finals and tb games, do u see a single game without zama pult gambit ground on either side i mean please i implore u to find one such game to show the past meta brimming with diversity that you are dying to return to trad for.

I thought I kinda hinted already at my feelings towards past metas (they were not brimming with diversity). I don't think it will be diverse now, and it wasn't diverse then. Do you think late dlc1 was diverse? And do you think dlc2 will be more diverse? We will see, but the oupl game I linked has me pessimistic!

Next. 'But I think the most important part is the increase in offensive powercreep in balance's speed control options. Weavile and Meowscarada getting Triple Axel make them 2x better as progress makers via knock off and general speed control. To me, this is the main reason why balance is strong right now, and in conjunction with all the factors in the OP by njnp, you are looking at a very narrow set of consistent options and a very wide array of MU fishing'
ok so you are telling me that more options to hit annoying mons of the past like zap lu scor meow, options like knock to force progress vs sit and do nothing stall forcing it to adopt new strategies, and more mons such as kyurem to put pressure on fat teams whereas the booster mons bolster the prowess of ho, the meta is actually LESS diverse? so you trad boys parade around the idea that all the new shit is broken, and the new shit is so diverse and flexible they boost basically any team theyre on, yet only one style aka balance is viable? so which is it, the new mons are only broken and usable on balance or do they offer diverse boosts to different strategies in this meta?

We do have more options in terms of boots knock off progress makers: stuff like torn-t, darkrai, ival, hoopa, etc. I don't see any of these because weavile/meow are way waay better. So despite our numerous options, we end up seeing a narrow pool of mons that actually get picked on serious teams. I think njnp has already explained very well why HO is so MU fishy rn and why balance is more consistent, so I don't want to repeat it.

I never said "all the new shit is broken," if anything I echo the sentiment of many others in this thread: meta's not great but there's no obviously broken mons to ban. I can't really choose between the two choices you offer here, none of them accurately describe what I believe.

If we want to look at individual mons, I agree we can wait for survey results and weighted usage stats to gauge the brokeness of mons like gouging fire, who alongside meow are my best hitters of DLC 2, undeniably. However, every mon has flaws and counterplay. I have used every DLC 2 mon and built teams around them, testing on high ladder w fiends like vert who occupy the top spot longer than aubrey graham. I dont think anything is immediately over the top like ursaluna where coverage is perfect and u get a mix of longevity and immediate power, somewhat of a perfect mon. similar mons like gouging fire, bolt, kyurem and company exist, but they each have flaws. Instead of banning them, I think introducing more borderlines such as bax back into the meta can create another situation of offensively checkign threats. For example, cry all uwant about ground volc, but u get a kill with it and now i send out bax with shard in the back, u have already exhausted tera so i have the upper hand. Similarly, use your gouging fire but my lando/tusk/dozo/primarina will still come in and blow ur nose off. There is counterplay to everything, stop crying about fishing and randomness, notice how all the top players consistently perform with little randomness or variation involved, no matter the meta changes. Over the last week or so I have used/given teams to people at the top of the ladder ranging from cheese ho to stall, even rage built some stall ct to snipe some pussies. They all work. Please player base have some respect for yourself and accept that no matter the tiering actions taken, the top players arent better cuz 'mu fish', and that losing to the 'broken mons' everyone has access to isnt the real reason your spl campaign has fallen short for the 5th season in a row. Just let the real players play w unmitigated options as long as they are fair and balanced, until proven otherwise.
Lastly, if you are still having the conversation about banning THE core mechanic and its extension (tera blast), please help yourself to the nintendo switch and hit that custom wifi battle playa, we here to play some real mons
No personal shots at anyone: this is not disparagement, this is a conversation.
Thank you for tuning in.

Ok I agree/no comment to most of this but

Instead of banning them, I think introducing more borderlines such as bax back into the meta can create another situation of offensively checkign threats.

You realize bax was almost unanimously voted to not come back in dlc2?

They're all better players than me, and I'm sure you've used/given teams to some of these fine folks. Ask em why they voted do not unban.

Ok one more thing

There is counterplay to everything, stop crying about fishing and randomness, notice how all the top players consistently perform with little randomness or variation involved, no matter the meta changes...the top players arent better cuz 'mu fish'

Top players were also consistently at the top during the dmax meta. Does this mean that the dmax meta was a good one? Ofc not. Top players are always going to be at the top, no matter how good or bad the meta is, because they're still winning more on average, even if they're dropping a game or two on ladder due to randomness or variation. It's just wholly irrelevant to bring up that "top players are at the top."

Also I refuse to pay for switch online, I apologize for not joining you. Thank you for the conversation.

 

[manyproblems]

Enjoyed the OP and reading this thread. If there was anything signalling intervention time, its the creation of this thread. It shows that the current tiering system is worth reviewing as Gen 9 OU hasn't reached a state of balance or user satisfaction (citing survey results). And now in DLC2 the meta is being tested again with an influx of overbearing threats

We probably have two years left of Gen 9 OU, and over generations progress made in tiers has been slow (how many cumulative years has DeoxysS overstayed its welcome?). Under the current system of Suspect test, vote, suspect test, vote, it can potentially take the duration of the generation before reaching a meta that is as close to perfect as possible judging by how many Pokemon's names have been reeled off in this thread. If the objective of the tier is to become more balanced and playable, then the Koko method can do that. It creates a metagame which is far less restraining on the teambuilding. Yes the opportunity cost is we may miss out on OUBL Pokemon before their time comes which could be great additions to the game, but we will also see other Pokemon rise from below and not play with overbearing Pokemon either (e.g. not play with Deoxys S for a year a few gens ago).

In terms of knowing what direction to take, it makes sense to first quickban (current system) or kokoloko method if employed. And then go straight to the roots - Tera and Hazards. There's no point continuing to suspect/reintroducing Pokémon before making a decision on these given how they affect the viability of every Pokemon.

Lastly, is it clear on what the criteria is for a balanced OU? A healthy, balanced and diverse(?) game which is satisfying to play and requires great skill? Because I still can't get my head around how having 15-20 hazard setters and 2-3 removers is any aspect healthy for the game, to the point where HDB has become better than every other item, perhaps along with booster energy.

 

[Dreadfury]

It shows that the current tiering system is worth reviewing as Gen 9 OU hasn't reached a state of balance or user satisfaction (citing survey results). And now in DLC2 the meta is being tested again with an influx of overbearing threats

With all due respect (and I hate to come across as nitpicky, but I think it's an important thing to note), the survey results including those regarding balance and metagame enjoyability are/were indicative of a metagame that doesn't exist in the slightest anymore. Those were from the DLC1 metagame, and the DLC2 metagame is so far removed from that metagame that it's hard to really say "people are(n't) satisfied with the state of the current metagame. That was a metagame where Wellspring was consistently being discussed as a prospective suspect and was a metagame devoid of Volcarona and where Gliscor and Roaring Moon eventually got banned, and right now Volc, Moon, and Gliscor are back (for better or worse) and nearly nobody talks about Wellspring right now.

We probably have two years left of Gen 9 OU, and over generations progress made in tiers has been slow (how many cumulative years has DeoxysS overstayed its welcome?).

Again, though I don't mean to nitpick, discussion surrounding Deo-S is extremely different now. The previous times Deo-S was around in OU were during generations that had much lower relative power levels, much less bulk on average, and were/are played at a slower pace (in that the mons were quite literally slower; you didn't have Pult, Booster Valiant, Booster Boulder, etc. back then cranking up the tier's speed levels); nowadays the metagame is bulkier, stronger, and faster and Deo-S isn't a cut-and-dry "this mon has no business being in this tier" mon like it was back then, at least at this point in time. Those base 95 attacking stats are very lackluster by today's standards, its coverage is great but the OU-legal Dex is diverse enough that offensive Deo-S (the sets that would consistently be its downfall in those previous gens) runs into genuine coverage issues because of its massive 4MSS, and so on. And, paradoxically enough, the second-fastest mon of all time somehow feels like it isn't fast enough at times; Booster mons like Valiant and Boulder are very common, Scarf Enamorus is a top threat, there's a whole bunch of Paralysis spam in the tier courtesy of various T-Wave users and Serperior, and the tier is absolutely crawling with strong priority users that can keep its lead sets honest while ensuring that offensive sets aren't as foolproof when cleaning up as they once were. The fact that we, as a playerbase, are debating this at all should be a testament to the fact that Deo-S kinda isn't overstaying its welcome right now.

Because I still can't get my head around how having 15-20 hazard setters and 2-3 removers is any aspect healthy for the game, to the point where HDB has become better than every other item, perhaps along with booster energy.

Again, this is just a tough situation to be in and it isn't anyone's fault that we found ourselves with painfully few options to remove hazards (not that you're saying it is anyone's fault, of course). There are a lot of mons in this tier that are extremely effective at getting hazards up: Ribombee has the fastest Webs in the West and gets them up even in the face of Magic Bounce users, Glimmora gets layers upon layers of hazards up just by getting touched in addition to being able to remove opposing hazards, Deo-S has the fastest unboosted hazards and Taunt in the tier as well as access to Skill Swap, Ting-Lu can just sit there and shit out hazards for half the game, as can Gliscor while additionally being immune to status and beating all the Spinners, H-Samurott has the astounding property of setting up Spikes without caring about Taunt and Magic Bounce alike while simultaneously hitting like a truck, Meowscarada could handle Great Tusk while offering insanely fast Spikes as well, etc. and no matter how many of them you ban (and realistically, none of these mons are banworthy on their own) it won't bring back Defog Zapdos and Torn-T. It eventually reaches a point where you're banning a comical number of individual mons to try (and fail) to address an issue that a cartridge-accurate format literally cannot address, if we were to indeed go down that road.

I don't envy the Council's position in all this. I really don't. This metagame is weird, but it's somehow not that bad at the moment either.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

If the point of kokoloko is to force progress upon the metagame due to its unusual status. Is the best move to not look at what underpins the metagame first? Tera and potentially gholdengo and booster energy are all metagame warping things that underpin gen9 ou. I think before employing the kokoloko method we should examine the foundations of the meta itself, because if things are this dire then there is no reason to ignore those things.

 

[manyproblems]

Thanks for the reply, just to address some of the points

With all due respect (and I hate to come across as nitpicky, but I think it's an important thing to note), the survey results including those regarding balance and metagame enjoyability are/were indicative of a metagame that doesn't exist in the slightest anymore. Those were from the DLC1 metagame, and the DLC2 metagame is so far removed from that metagame that it's hard to really say "people are(n't) satisfied with the state of the current metagame. That was a metagame where Wellspring was consistently being discussed as a prospective suspect and was a metagame devoid of Volcarona and where Gliscor and Roaring Moon eventually got banned, and right now Volc, Moon, and Gliscor are back (for better or worse) and nearly nobody talks about Wellspring right now.

We are in a different (and better) meta game now, but core aspects of the game - Tera & Hazards+Ghould were frustrations of DLC1 and they still remain in DLC2, there wasn't any action against Ghold. I was highlighting how the current tiering method lead to an unsatisfying and unhealthy metagame. Not saying it was easy to balance but the Ghold problem was never dealt with.

Again, though I don't mean to nitpick, discussion surrounding Deo-S is extremely different now. The previous times Deo-S was around in OU were during generations that had much lower relative power levels, much less bulk on average, and were/are played at a slower pace (in that the mons were quite literally slower; you didn't have Pult, Booster Valiant, Booster Boulder, etc. back then cranking up the tier's speed levels); nowadays the metagame is bulkier, stronger, and faster and Deo-S isn't a cut-and-dry "this mon has no business being in this tier" mon like it was back then, at least at this point in time. Those base 95 attacking stats are very lackluster by today's standards, its coverage is great but the OU-legal Dex is diverse enough that offensive Deo-S (the sets that would consistently be its downfall in those previous gens) runs into genuine coverage issues because of its massive 4MSS, and so on. And, paradoxically enough, the second-fastest mon of all time somehow feels like it isn't fast enough at times; Booster mons like Valiant and Boulder are very common, Scarf Enamorus is a top threat, there's a whole bunch of Paralysis spam in the tier courtesy of various T-Wave users and Serperior, and the tier is absolutely crawling with strong priority users that can keep its lead sets honest while ensuring that offensive sets aren't as foolproof when cleaning up as they once were. The fact that we, as a player base, are debating this at all should be a testament to the fact that Deo-S kinda isn't overstaying its welcome right now.

Similar to the first point, DeoxysS in past gens has nothing to do with DeoxysS in Gen 9 OU, my point was how long we played with a Pokemon that should have been banned long ago. Given all the Pokemon on the Radar at the moment, it could be a slow process if they're suspected one by one, or a few at a time, or whether Tera/Hazards are looked at beforehand. While others may disagree I see a mountain of work ahead of tiering Gen 9 OU with all the potential suspects and there's likely less than 2 years if gamefreak continue the same release schedule.

Again, this is just a tough situation to be in and it isn't anyone's fault that we found ourselves with painfully few options to remove hazards (not that you're saying it is anyone's fault, of course). There are a lot of mons in this tier that are extremely effective at getting hazards up: Ribombee has the fastest Webs in the West and gets them up even in the face of Magic Bounce users, Glimmora gets layers upon layers of hazards up just by getting touched in addition to being able to remove opposing hazards, Deo-S has the fastest unboosted hazards and Taunt in the tier as well as access to Skill Swap, Ting-Lu can just sit there and shit out hazards for half the game, as can Gliscor while additionally being immune to status and beating all the Spinners, H-Samurott has the astounding property of setting up Spikes without caring about Taunt and Magic Bounce alike while simultaneously hitting like a truck, Meowscarada could handle Great Tusk while offering insanely fast Spikes as well, etc. and no matter how many of them you ban (and realistically, none of these mons are banworthy on their own) it won't bring back Defog Zapdos and Torn-T. It eventually reaches a point where you're banning a comical number of individual mons to try (and fail) to address an issue that a cartridge-accurate format literally cannot address, if we were to indeed go down that road.

I don't envy the Council's position in all this. I really don't. This metagame is weird, but it's somehow not that bad at the moment either.

Obviously you can't ban every Pokemon with Hazards, the only other real alternative is to ban the moves themselves. Gliscor has never been close to uber until it became blatantly broken in DLC1 with the addition of one move - Spikes. If Baton pass is bannable (its not broken on everyone) then why can't hazard moves be looked at? They're not broken on everyone but they dictate of a lot of OU and there's massive issues teambuilding to combat them.