Gen 3 ADV PU

Aurist · Oct 15, 2023

Art by IoSonoNeon
Approved by Hiro'

Welcome to ADV PU! In this thread you will find ADV PU's resources such as Sample Teams, Viability Rankings, and our ongoing metagame discussion.
Sit and stay awhile, we're happy to have you and consider joining our Discord Server!

Species Clause: A player's team cannot contain two Pokémon with the same National Pokédex number.
Sleep Clause: If a player has already put a Pokémon on his/her opponent's side to sleep and it is still sleeping, another one can't be put to sleep.
Evasion Clause: A Pokémon's moveset cannot contain the moves Double Team or Minimize.
OHKO Clause: A Pokémon's moveset cannot contain the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
Endless Battle Clause: A player cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from being able to end the game without forfeiting.
Baton Pass Clause: A Pokémon's moveset cannot contain the move Baton Pass and a stat-boosting move or item.

ADV Mechanics:
For those unfamiliar with ADV, certain aspects are greatly different from more recent generations.

There is no team preview, your first Pokemon sent out is the first one in your team.
A move being physical or special is determined by the type of the move.
- Physical moves: Normal, Fighting, Rock, Ground, Ghost, Poison, Steel, Bug, Flying
- Special moves: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Ice, Psychic, Dark, Dragon
  - This means Hidden Power can be Physical as well as Special.
Steel resists Dark and Ghost.
Many items do not exist yet, notably Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb, Expert Belt, Eviolite, and more.
Grass-types can be affected by powder moves. Electric-types can be paralyzed by Thunder Wave.
Rest and Sleep Talk work weirdly, read this post for more information.
Explosion and Self-Destruct halve Defense in the damage calculation, so their powers may be listed as 500 and 400 respectively.
Wish is not based on the user's HP and only heals 50% of the max HP of the receiver.
Thunder Wave does not activate Volt Absorb and Will-o-Wisp does not activate Flash Fire.

List does not include every legal Pokemon.

S Rank: Pokemon that define the metagame and consistently perform well
S
:Minun:Minun

A Rank: Pokemon that are very good and will usually add something significant to a team
A+

:dragonair:Dragonair
:sealeo:Sealeo
:Arbok:Arbok
:swalot:Swalot

A
:Pineco:Pineco
:lickitung:Lickitung
:Furret:Furret
:Seviper:Seviper
:Seadra:Seadra
:Charmeleon:Charmeleon
:marshtomp:Marshtomp
:trapinch:Trapinch

A-

:duskull:Duskull
:togetic:Togetic
:tangela:Tangela
:wigglytuff:Wigglytuff

B Rank: Pokemon that are usable but may have some minor drawbacks
B+

:Graveler:Graveler
:Mightyena:Mightyena
:shuckle:Shuckle
:combusken:Combusken
:gastly:Gastly
:Kingler:Kingler

B

:mawile:Mawile
:wartortle:Wartortle
:vibrava:Vibrava
:Grovyle:Grovyle
:lairon:Lairon

B-

:shelgon:Shelgon
:clamperl:Clamperl
:yanma:Yanma
:shedinja:Shedinja
:omanyte:Omanyte

C Rank: Pokemon that either have major flaws or are outclassed and may need significant support
C+

:houndour:Houndour
:abra:Abra
:magcargo:Magcargo
:tentacool:Tentacool
:sunflora:Sunflora
:porygon:Porygon

C

:Masquerain:Masquerain
:ivysaur:Ivysaur
:noctowl:Noctowl
:tropius:Tropius
:lombre:Lombre
:cubone:Cubone
:parasect:Parasect
:ariados:Ariados
:flaaffy:Flaaffy

Leads

Common Leads
:minun: :furret: :pineco: :marshtomp: :charmeleon: :grovyle: :dragonair: :arbok: :combusken:

Utility

Hazard + Prevention

Spikes
:pineco: :omanyte: :snorunt:

Rapid Spin
:pineco: :wartortle:

Spin blockers
:duskull: :gastly: :shedinja:

Trapping

Arena Trap
:trapinch:

Pursuit
:houndour: :grovyle: :arbok::furret: :duskull: :beedrill: :parasect:

Other Utility

Taunt
:duskull: :gastly: :houndour: :mawile: :seviper: :abra: :mightyena:

Trick
:furret: :volbeat:

Encore
:minun: :sealeo: :shuckle: :swalot: :togetic: :abra:

Offensive Roles

Wallbreakers

Choice Band
:arbok: :furret: :kingler: :marshtomp: :trapinch:

All-Out Attackers

Physical Attackers
:arbok: :dragonair: :furret: :graveler: :kingler: :lairon: :lickitung: :marshtomp: :mawile: :shedinja: :shuckle: :swalot: :trapinch: :vibrava: :wigglytuff::tropius:

Special Attackers
:charmeleon: :gastly: :grovyle: :houndour: :magcargo: :minun: :omanyte: :seadra: :sealeo: :tangela: :togetic::abra: :chinchou: :clamperl: :corsola: :lombre::quilava: :masquerain: :seaking:

Mixed Attackers
:charmeleon::combusken::kingler: :marshtomp: :seviper: :swalot: :quilava: :seaking:

Set-up Sweepers

Agility
:dragonair: :minun: :seadra: :beedrill: :masquerain: :seaking:

Belly Drum
:charmeleon: :poliwhirl:

Bulk Up
:combusken:

Curse
:lickitung: :marshtomp::ivysaur: :sealeo:

Calm Mind
:Abra: :corsola:

Dragon Dance
:dragonair: :shelgon: :charmeleon: :seadra:

Swords Dance
:kingler: :mawile: :shedinja: :charmeleon: :combusken: :grovyle: :ivysaur: :lickitung: :tangela: :beedrill: :lombre: :parasect::tropius:

Tail Glow
:volbeat:

Priority

Quick Attack
:combusken: :furret: :grovyle: :minun: :trapinch: :vibrava: :yanma: :quilava: :volbeat:

Fake Out
:Lombre:

Pinch Berries

Liechi Berry
:furret: :yanma:

Petaya Berry
:charmeleon: :grovyle: :seadra: :abra:

Salac Berry
:charmeleon: :combusken: :gastly: :beedrill:

Explosion/Self Destruct

Explosion
:gastly: :graveler: :pineco: :swalot: :corsola:

Self Destruct
:magcargo:

Weather

Rain Dance
:arbok: :dragonair: :duskull: :furret: :gastly: :kingler: :lickitung: :marshtomp: :mawile: :minun: :omanyte: :seadra: :sealeo: :seviper: :swalot: :togetic: :wigglytuff: :abra: :chinchou: :clamperl: :corsola: :lombre: :masquerain: :mightyena: :seaking: :volbeat: :wartortle:

Rain Abusers
:omanyte: :seadra: :sealeo: :clamperl: :chinchou: :lombre: :seaking:

Sunny Day
:arbok: :charmeleon: :combusken: :dragonair: :duskull: :furret: :gastly: :graveler: :grovyle: :houndour: :ivysaur: :lickitung: :magcargo: :mawile: :pineco: :seviper: :shuckle: :swalot: :tangela: :togetic: :trapinch: :vibrava: :wigglytuff: :abra: :beedrill: :corsola: :dustox: :lombre: :masquerain: :mightyena: :quilava: :tropius:

Sun Abusers
:charmeleon: :combusken: :houndour: :magcargo: :tangela: :quilava: :tropius:

Defensive Roles

Walls

Physical Walls
:duskull: :magcargo: :marshtomp: :mawile: :omanyte: :shuckle: :tangela: :corsola: :mightyena:

Special Walls
:dragonair: :ivysaur: :lickitung: :swalot: :togetic: :wigglytuff: :chinchou: :dustox: :wartortle:

Mixed Wall
:duskull: :marshtomp: :shuckle: :wartortle:

Clerics

Heal Bell
:lickitung: :mightyena:

Wish
:lickitung: :minun: :togetic: :wigglytuff: :shelgon:

Phazing

Haze
:arbok: :dragonair: :gastly: :kingler: :omanyte: :seviper: :masquerain: :seaking: :wartortle:

Whirlwind
:yanma: :dustox: :tropius:

Roar
:houndour: :sealeo: :lairon: :shelgon: :mightyena: :quilava: :tropius:

Pivotting

Baton Pass
:mawile: :minun: :togetic: :beedrill: :volbeat:

Screens

Dual Screens
:magcargo: :pineco: :togetic: :wigglytuff: :abra: :corsola:

Reflect
:tangela:

Light Screen
:dragonair: :ivysaur: :minun: :dustox: :parasect: :volbeat:

Status

Burn

Will-O-Wisp
:duskull: :gastly: :houndour:

Paralysis

Thunder Wave
:dragonair: :minun: :togetic: :wigglytuff: :abra: :chinchou: :volbeat:

Poison

Toxic
:arbok: :charmeleon: :combusken: :dragonair: :duskull: :furret: :gastly: :graveler: :grovyle: :houndour: :ivysaur: :kingler: :lickitung: :magcargo: :marshtomp: :mawile: :minun: :omanyte: :pineco: :seadra: :seviper: :shuckle: :swalot: :tangela: :togetic: :trapinch: :vibrava: :wigglytuff: :lairon: :shelgon: :shedinja: :yanma: :abra: :beedrill: :chinchou: :clamperl: :corsola: :dustox: :masquerain: :mightyena: :parasect: :quilava: :seaking: :snorunt: :tropius: :volbeat: :wartortle:

Sleep

Hypnosis
:gastly: :yanma: :poliwhirl:

Yawn
:magcargo: :sealeo: :swalot: :togetic: :mightyena: :wartortle:

Sing
:mawile: :swalot: :wigglytuff:

Sleep Powder
:ivysaur: :tangela:

Spore
:parasect:

Status Absorbers

Toxic
:arbok: :dragonair: :gastly: :ivysaur: :mawile: :seviper: :swalot: :lairon: :beedrill: :corsola: :dustox:

Thunder Wave
:arbok: :dragonair: :graveler: :marshtomp: :seviper: :trapinch: :vibrava: :corsola:

Will-O-Wisp
:arbok: :charmeleon: :combusken: :dragonair: :houndour: :magcargo: :seviper: :corsola: :quilava:

Tier 0 - 317+ Speed

Speed	Pokemon	Base	Natures	EV	IVS	Boosts
590	:seadra:	85	+Speed	252	31	+2
538	:seadra:	85	Neutral	252	31	+2
478	:dragonair:	70	Neutral	252	31	+2
476	:dragonair:	70	Neutral	252	30 (HP Fighting)	+2
475	:yanma:	95	+Speed	252	31	+1
459	:abra:	90	+Speed	252	31	+1
438	:tangela:	60	Neutral	252	31	+2
436	:tangela:	60	Neutral	252	30 (HP Fire)	+2
426	:charmeleon: :gastly:	80	+Speed	252	31	+1
409	:beedrill:	75	+Speed	252	31	+1
357	:dragonair:	70	Neutral	252	30 (HP Fighting)	+1
343	:combusken:	55	+Speed	252	31	+1
338	:omanyte:	35	Neutral	252	31	+2
327	:shelgon: :marshtomp:	50	+Speed	252	31	+1

Tier 1 - 262 to 317

Speed	Pokemon	Base	Natures	EV	IVs	Boosts
317	:minun: :grovyle: :yanma:	95	+Speed	252	31	+0
306	:furret: :abra:	90	+Speed	252	31	+0
295	:seadra:	85	+Speed	252	31	+0
284	:arbok: :charmeleon: :gastly:	80	+Speed	252	31	+0
273	:kingler: :beedrill:	75	+Speed	252	31	+0
269	:seadra:	85	Neutral	252	31	+0
262	:vibrava:	70	+Speed	252	31	+0

Tier 2 - 201 to 251

Speed	Pokemon	Base	Natures	EV	IVs	Boosts
251	:seviper:	65	+Speed	252	31	+0
249	:kingler:	75	Neutral	252	31	+0
239	:dragonair:	70	Neutral	252	31	+0
238	:dragonair:	70	Neutral	252	30 (HP Fighting)	+0
233	:chinchou:	65	Neutral	252	31	+0
229	:houndour:	65	Neutral	252	31	+0
229	:combusken: :swalot:	55	+Speed	252	31	+0
219	:tangela:	60	Neutral	252	31	+0
218	:tangela:	60	Neutral	252	30 (HP Fire)	+0
218	:shelgon:	50	+Speed	252	31	+0
209	:combusken: :swalot:	55	Neutral	252	31	+0
207	:sealeo:	45	+Speed	252	31	+0
201	:tropius:	51	Neutral	252	31	+0

Tier 3 - 126 to 199

Speed	Pokemon	Base	Nature	EV	IVs	Boosts
199	:marshtomp: :mawile:	50	Neutral	252	31	+0
189	:sealeo:	45	Neutral	252	31	+0
179	:clamperl:	32	+Speed	252	31	+0
179	:shedinja: :lairon:	40	Neutral	252	31	+0
178	:shedinja:	40	Neutral	252	30 (HP Fighting)	+0
176	:dragonair: :mightyena:	70	Neutral	0	31	+0
170	:chinchou:	67	Neutral	0	31	+0
169	:omanyte: :graveler:	35	Neutral	0	31	+0
163	:clamperl:	32	Neutral	252	31	+0
156	:tangela: :ivysaur:	60	Neutral	0	31	+0
152	:wartortle:	58	Neutral	0	31	+0
146	:swalot:	55	Neutral	0	31	+0
136	:mawile: :shelgon:	50	Neutral	0	31	+0
131	:swalot:	55	-Speed	0	31	+0
130	:trapinch:	10	+Speed	252	31	+0
126	:sealeo: :wigglytuff:	45	Neutral	0	31	+0

Tier 4 - 46 to 122

Speed	Pokemon	Base	Nature	EVs	IV	+0
122	:Marshtomp:	50	-Spe	0	31	+0
119	:trapinch:	10	Neutral	252	31	+0
116	:Togetic:	40	Neutral	0	31	+0
106	:omanyte: :graveler: :corsola:	35	Neutral	0	31	+0
96	:lickitung: :magcargo:	30	Neutral	0	31	+0
86	:duskull:	25	Neutral	0	31	+0
66	:pineco:	15	Neutral	0	31	+0
56	:trapinch:	10	Neutral	0	31	+0
46	:shuckle:	5	Neutral	0	31	+0

FEs / NEs
Aipom Arbok Ariados Beautifly Beedrill Butterfree Castform Corsola Delcatty Delibird Ditto Dustox Furret Farfetch'd Illumise Kingler Ledian Lickitung Luvdisc Magcargo Masquerain Mawile Mightyena Minun Noctowl Nosepass Parasect Seadra Seaking Seviper Shedinja Shuckle Spinda Sunflora Swalot Tangela Togetic Tropius Unown Volbeat Wigglytuff Yanma

NFEs
Bayleef Cascoon Charmeleon Clefairy Combusken Croconaw Dragonair Flaaffy Gloom Graveler Grovyle Ivysaur Jigglypuff Kakuna Kirlia Lairon Lombre Loudred Marill Marshtomp Metapod Nidorina Nidorino Nuzleaf Pidgeotto Poliwhirl Quilava Sealeo Shelgon Silcoon Skiploom Vibrava Wartortle Weepinbell

LC / First evolution stage
Abra Anorith Aron Azurill Bagon Baltoy Barboach Beldum Bellsprout Bulbasaur Cacnea Carvanha Caterpie Charmander Chikorita Chinchou Clamperl Cleffa Corphish Cubone Cyndaquil Doduo Dratini Drowze Duskull Eevee Ekans Electrike Elekid Exeggcute Feebas Gastly Geodude Goldeen Grimer Growlithe Gulpin Hoothoot Hoppip Horsea Houndour Igglybuff Kabuto Koffing Krabby Larvitar Ledyba Lileep Lotad Machop Magby Magikarp Magnemite Makuhita Mankey Mareep Meditite Meowth Mudkip Natu Nidoran-F Nidoran-M Nincada Numel Oddish Omanyte Onix Paras Phanpy Pichu Pidgey Pineco Poliwag Ponyta Poochyena Porygon Psyduck Ralts Rattata Remoraid Rhyhorn Sandshrew Seedot Seel Sentret Shellder Shroomish Shuppet Skitty Slakoth Slowpoke Slugma Smoochum Snorunt Snubbull Spearow Spheal Spinarak Spoink Squirtle Staryu Sunkern Surskit Swablu Swinub Taillow Teddiursa Tentacool Togepi Torchic Totodile Trapinch Treecko Tyrogue Venonat Voltorb Vulpix Wailmer Weedle Whismur Wingull Wooper Wurmple Zigzagoon Zubat

Big Stall by MrSoup [importable]
:omanyte::shelgon::duskull::wartortle::mawile::lickitung:
CB Furret+DD Dragonair by MrSoup [importable]
:furret::seadra::houndour::ivysaur::mawile::dragonair:
Special Dragonair+CB Crab by MrSoup [importable]
:dragonair::mawile::ivysaur::marshtomp::gastly::kingler:
SD Tropius Flying Spam by TONE [importable]
:lairon::seadra::doduo::tropius::delcatty::omanyte:
Sub SD Kingler by Eve [importable]

Arbok Balance by BP [importable]
:omanyte::arbok::togetic::abra::mawile::sealeo:
Abra FWG by BP [importable]
:abra::sealeo::magcargo::ivysaur::duskull::mawile:
Sun by BP [importable]
:swalot::volbeat::tropius::charmeleon::tangela::houndour:
CB Kingler Balance [importable]
:omanyte::kingler::togetic::magcargo::dragonair::abra:
SpDef Noctowl Balance by TONE [importable]

Charmeleon Anti-Lead by SergioRules [importable]

SD Anorith Offense by Tack [importable]

Standard Offense [importable]

Charmeleon Offense by Akir [importable]

Banded Marshtomp Balance [importable]

SubSeed Grovyle Balance [importable]

Furret Spikes Balance [importable]

Deprecated 2/11/26
:pineco: :minun: :furret: :mawile: :swalot: :duskull:
Furret Spikes Balance - by plznostep

:charmeleon: :minun: :lickitung: :trapinch: :tangela::mawile:
Charmeleon Balance - by plznostep

:pineco: :gastly: :minun: :sealeo: :arbok: :graveler:
Pineco Offense - by Monai

:minun: :togetic: :seviper: :graveler: :dragonair: :sealeo:
Seviper + Sealeo Balance - by Slowbroth

:minun: :marshtomp: :lickitung: :houndour: :duskull: :arbok:
Houndour Balance - by TyCarter

Metagame 0:
* 2/2017 - Creation of ADV PU by Slar Flar, Melancholy Blues and Slowbroth. The tier was initially tiered erroneously based on ADV NU ladder stats. (No record of exactly which month's was used, but likely was the stats from this ladder with a cutoff at Lairon.)

Metagame 1:
* 5/2017 - Tier was re-tiered based off of ADV NU Viability Rankings
* 6/2017 - Dunsparce Suspect Vote
* 7/2017 - Dunsparce Banned
* 9/2017 - Baton Pass Clause instated

Metagame 2:
* 8/2018 - New drops from ADV NU
* 12/2018 - Machoke and Seviper quickbanned

Metagame 3:
* 5/2022 - New drops from ADV NU; Seviper unbanned
* 3/2023 - Piloswine banned
* 10/2023 - Baton Pass banned
* 12/2023 - Baton Pass unbanned; Baton Pass Stat Clause instated

* 5/2017 - PU Classic 2017's ADV PU Cup
* 9/2017 - PUPL III

* 8/2020 - ADV PU TOURNAMENT
* 2/2022 - ADV PU TOURNAMENT 2
* 11/2022 - ADV PU TOURNAMENT 3

* 2/2023 - PU Classic 2023's ADV PU Cup
* 7/2023 - PUPL IX
*10/2023 - ADV Grand Slam's ADV PU Open
* 2/2024 - PUBD I
* 4/2024 - ADVPL IV
* 6/2024 - PUPL X
* 7/2024 - PU Classic 2024's ADV PU Cup
* 9/2024 - September ROA Spotlight

Aurist · Oct 15, 2023

Sample Teams

:charmeleon::marshtomp::pineco::minun::gastly::arbok:

Lead Charm + Boom Gastly Spikes by THE_CHUNGLER

:swalot::clamperl::charmeleon::minun::dragonair::shuckle:

Clamperl Paraspam by Plague

:charmeleon::minun::wartortle::trapinch::duskull::dragonair:

Pinch Balance by Aurist

:pineco::minun::gastly::lickitung::graveler::tangela:

Grav/Tang + Knock Licki Spikes by plznostep

:furret::wigglytuff::graveler::minun::arbok::dragonair:

Physical Overwhelm by Aurist

:combusken::mawile::pineco::togetic::swalot::minun:

Mixed Busken Spikes by Slowbroth

:arbok::lickitung::minun::houndour::duskull::sealeo:

Curse Licki + Dour by Aurist

:charmeleon::pineco::minun::swalot::tangela::kingler:

Salac Kingler Spikes by Aurist

:pineco::minun::duskull::lickitung::mightyena::dragonair:

Yena Fat Spikes by Plague

SergioRules · Oct 15, 2023

Welcome to your new destination for everything ADV PU related. This metagame and even the generation as a whole are a huge passion of mine and I'm excited to keep it developing and growing.

First matter of business: after the conclusion of PUPL this year, a survey was given to several ADV PU players and other members involved in ADV PU. The main issues we wanted to vote on were Swalot and Baton Pass. For more information on the reasoning of the vote, see this post. The results are in and we have a huge update.

What is your Smogon name?	Swalot	Baton Pass	What action would you like to take on Baton Pass?
SergioRules	Do Not Ban	Take Action	Complete Ban
Lily	Do Not Ban	Do Not Take Action
Gangsta Spongebob	Do Not Ban	Take Action	Complete Ban
mrsoup	Do Not Ban	Take Action	Complete Ban
Eve	Do Not Ban	Do Not Take Action
Medeia	Ban	Take Action	Complete Ban
slowbroth	Do Not Ban	Take Action	Complete Ban

Therefore, Swalot remains legal, Baton Pass is banned!
If you want a short reasoning for Baton Pass's ban, take a look at our old Baton Pass Clause. It became so convoluted that it takes a whole two and a half lines to fully explain it. And even with these limitations of one Baton Pass user and not passing Speed with another stat, there were certain Pokemon that made the move too strong. There were also certain combinations like Ancient Power Togetic and pinch berries that could work around this clause. Rather than continuing to pick at small details and prune these ideas away, we decided with a 5/7 majority to ban the move entirely.

This is obviously a huge update for the tier, as Baton Pass was integral to the performance of Pokemon like Mawile, Minun, and Volbeat. However, these Pokemon all have certain great attributes that still make them very viable. Our next course of action will involve redoing the Viability Rankings and Sample Teams with this new vote in mind.

If you have any feedback, questions, or thoughts about the meta and these decisions, feel free to participate in the discussion, we're always open to new ideas!

Deezcastforms · Oct 17, 2023

SergioRules said:
Welcome to your new destination for everything ADV PU related. This metagame and even the generation as a whole are a huge passion of mine and I'm excited to keep it developing and growing.

First matter of business: after the conclusion of PUPL this year, a survey was given to several ADV PU players and other members involved in ADV PU. The main issues we wanted to vote on were Swalot and Baton Pass. For more information on the reasoning of the vote, see this post. The results are in and we have a huge update.

What is your Smogon name? Swalot Baton Pass What action would you like to take on Baton Pass?
SergioRules Do Not Ban Take Action Complete Ban
Lily Do Not Ban Do Not Take Action
Gangsta Spongebob Do Not Ban Take Action Complete Ban
mrsoup Do Not Ban Take Action Complete Ban
Eve Do Not Ban Do Not Take Action
Medeia Ban Take Action Complete Ban
slowbroth Do Not Ban Take Action Complete Ban

Therefore, Swalot remains legal, Baton Pass is banned!
If you want a short reasoning for Baton Pass's ban, take a look at our old Baton Pass Clause. It became so convoluted that it takes a whole two and a half lines to fully explain it. And even with these limitations of one Baton Pass user and not passing Speed with another stat, there were certain Pokemon that made the move too strong. There were also certain combinations like Ancient Power Togetic and pinch berries that could work around this clause. Rather than continuing to pick at small details and prune these ideas away, we decided with a 5/7 majority to ban the move entirely.

This is obviously a huge update for the tier, as Baton Pass was integral to the performance of Pokemon like Mawile, Minun, and Volbeat. However, these Pokemon all have certain great attributes that still make them very viable. Our next course of action will involve redoing the Viability Rankings and Sample Teams with this new vote in mind.

If you have any feedback, questions, or thoughts about the meta and these decisions, feel free to participate in the discussion, we're always open to new ideas!

Doe the BP ban include drypass? I'm assuming it does since the voting table says "complete ban"

sugar ovens · Oct 17, 2023

I've already complained on Discord after some of the rather ridiculous pro-ban posts were posted and now after the ban. I did not think the ban had a chance to go through. So let's have a look at BP in action - i pulled up replays from PUPL, swiss ADV tournament and classic rounds with mandatory replays - 165 in total. I know, Piloswine, but i wanted a larger sample size and it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

Nothing.

I suppose this can look cool against players who see that Ariados can do this for the first time...

Not a single one.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1746397638

Yay! Found a single one! The Petaya Berry Minun didn't do anything, though.

On paper pinch berry passing seems like a potentially viable option on mons that would run BP anyway. I fail to see how the slight surprise factor would make it any more dangerous than SD/TG passing from Mawile and Volbeat.

But the reasoning mentions "working around the clause" alongside Ancient Power. Well, one could say that for Ancient Power, that it in a way bypasses the clause, but... for pinch berries that just plainly isn't true. You can't have a Speed-boosting Berry with an other stat- boosting move, or vice versa, there's no "working around the clause".

So that's the other strategies that are just waiting to break the meta that clearly need to be pruned away. It's nothing - they don't exist in competitive play - yet still, as the posts mention that BP Volbeat and Mawile are not broken - this is why some voted ban. It's literally nothing - a few theorymonned gimmicks - and this is what some people who made the decision stated as the reason for their vote.

It's ridiculous. Theorymonning apparently played a major part in a tiering decision. Theorymonning, potential threats.. Gesturing at BP being complicated to balance... If something was complicated to balance in the past, that shouldn't mean anything if it's working right now. If something maybe possibly might become broken in the future and it's not even an.. existing set right now, that obviously shouldn't mean anything either. Is Baton Pass balanced in the present? I thought so, yes. I don't know. If it's not, then why?

Anyway that's the reason why I was angry. Well then, even though it doesn't matter much right now, while i'm at it, to Volbeat and Mawile, who actually did exist. Volbeat is fairly rare with only two games, in one it was ass, in one it was valuable. SD BP Mawile actually has good usage with mixed success. There are a few showings that are arguably suspect - it's effective at punishing mistakes and i don't see it as being broken or overly demanding, but at least it is something...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3pu-710120
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3pu-701873

There's some sun usage, one game where it only revealed BP and one BP-less Tail Glow Volbeat, but here are the two games where a Volbeat revealed both TG and BP. In one game it sucked ass, in one game it facilitated an endgame Seadra sweep, where the player who played better won.

SergioRules · Oct 23, 2023

With ADV PU Open starting this week, I wanted to do a quick team dump of several things I or my teammates used during PUPL that all have been edited to not include Baton Pass. These teams haven't been completely reworked, BP has just been substituted for other moves so this won't be anything ground-breaking, many of them will likely need lead changes due to the potential of Trapinch leads now stifling Minun, but overall they should be consistent enough.

ALSO, and this is very important, due to the feedback I've gotten from some players about banning Baton Pass I have decided to have re-vote after the PU Open finishes. This vote will just be based on what to do with Baton Pass with the options being:
1) Keep Baton Pass banned
2) Allow Dry Pass only (no stat boosting moves or items will be allowed with Baton Pass (either by not allowing the combinations in the builder or by graying out BP in a game if a Pokemon has a stat boost))
3) Revert to the old Baton Pass clause (only one Pokemon on a team with Baton Pass, can't pass Speed+other stats)

The eligible voters will also be expanded upon to include the top 8 players of the ADV PU Open and anyone who played more than 2 weeks of ADV PU in PUPL. This wider voter base will aim to reassess Baton Pass and hopefully reach a viable conclusion to this clause. We'll still be taking opinions and discussion from anyone who's not included in the actual vote so as always, please voice your opinions in this thread!

Team Dump:
Salac Char+CB Vib :minun::charmeleon::arbok::vibrava::lombre::omanyte:
Shelgon BO :minun::vibrava::sealeo::duskull::omanyte::shelgon:
Double CB :marshtomp::vibrava::swalot::furret::minun::magcargo:
Stallbreaker Mawile :marshtomp::minun::furret::mawile::ivysaur::sealeo:
Charmeleon HO :minun::omanyte::arbok::chinchou::duskull::charmeleon:
Seviper Offense :minun::seviper::vibrava::sealeo::furret::ivysaur:
Tangela Offense :minun::mawile::furret::marshtomp::sealeo::tangela:
MrSoup Stall :omanyte::shelgon::duskull::wartortle::mawile::lickitung:

Have fun!

Slowbroth · Dec 19, 2023

September 2024 Edit: These teams are from an older meta when Baton Pass was banned and may not all be necessarily viable for the current meta. Use at your own risk!

Wanted to post my teams used throughout ADV PU Open. My goal for this tour was to not reuse teams as much as possible and build 2 new teams for each opponent every week and try to get creative. They're not perfect teams (e.g. some are Spikes weak) but they get the job done in most matchups. Hopefully some of the ideas here can be used as inspiration for others.

Given that this tour did not allow BP, much of the strategies revolved around eliminating threats with Trapinch, which may or may not continue to be as effective if BP is unbanned. Also due to the BP ban, the leads for most of the teams are adjusted to not lose to Trapinch turn 1 -- this means no Minun / Poison leads. That means that if BP is unbanned, these leads may also no longer be the most optimal and may need to be re-adjusted. For each team, see Notes section in paste for more details.

Also, two sets that I used many times in this tour that I want to encourage more people to try (or at least be aware of) are the Sub Mixed Marshtomp and AncientPower RestTalk Togetic sets. Are they the best sets these mons can run? Maybe maybe not. But they are pretty fun. See below for more details.

Marshtomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpD
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Ice Beam

Togetic @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SpA / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
- Ancient Power
- Psychic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Marshtomp is obviously very strong and also has many opportunities to force opponents out to set up Sub. Ground/Ghost/Ice coverage (think Piloswine) is very difficult to switch in to for many teams (only truly countered by Shuckle and Lickitung and Togetic), and is great for breaking defensive cores and putting on offensive pressure. Lonely nature was my nature of choice so that Ice Beam secured the 2HKO on Tangela and so that it could still take neutral HP Ices well. IVs here are chosen so that max attack Shuckle's EQ don't break sub.

For Togetic, I basically wanted a Pokemon that could switch in to Duskull and take a burn and beat it 1v1 long term. One of the hardest things to do in this tier is switch in to Duskull if you don't have a Pokemon to take a burn and heal it off. Looking through Togetic's movepool, there were not many options that actually allowed Togetic to beat Duskull 1v1. (I looked at things like HP Dark, Foresight, Hustle Shadow Ball, and other subpar things but none were actually viable.) In the end, I decided on abusing Serene Grace AncientPower paired with RestTalk. RestTalk allows you to call AncientPower more than 8 times (but remember in ADV you have to have at least 1 PP on the move in order for Sleep Talk to be able to call it). Psychic was the last move of choice as it is mostly unresisted and can also take advantage of Serene Grace for 20% spdef drop. The only downside to using this set is that you have to manage Sleep Talk turns. If you cannot guarantee avoid the 4HKO and can be forced out after 2 Sleep Talk turns before you have a chance to use Rest, you risk not being able to Rest back to full. In these cases you would have to bring in Togetic on a safe turn and manually burn off sleep turns without using Sleep Talk (or try to Sleep Talk first turn + no Sleep Talk second turn in order to wake up next time on switchin). Speed investment outspeeds 0 Speed Swalot, and outpaces base 85s at +2 Speed.

Sub Mixed Marshtomp Balance
:marshtomp::arbok::lickitung::duskull::minun::tropius: (Semi-Finals & Finals)

AncientPower Togetic Balance
:sealeo::dragonair::trapinch::furret::shuckle::togetic: (Finals)

Paraspam Double Water Breaker Offense
:marshtomp::kingler::omanyte::swalot::tangela::minun: (Finals)

Abra Balance
:tangela::abra::trapinch::mawile::lickitung::seadra: (Finals)

Spikes + AncientPower Togetic + Trapinch
:grovyle::swalot::omanyte::furret::togetic::trapinch: (Semi-Finals)

Sealeo Vibrava Balance
:sealeo::vibrava::swalot::togetic::mawile::minun: (R4)

SD Kingler Balance
:minun::kingler::arbok::shuckle::lickitung::tangela: (R4)

Clamperl Balance
:tangela::lickitung::mawile::arbok::clamperl::furret: (R3 & Semi-Finals)

Seadra + Trapinch Offense
:seadra::swalot::tangela:::trapinch::furret::gastly: (R3)

Seviper Balance
:seviper::volbeat::mawile::duskull::lickitung::minun: (R2)

Vibrava + Houndour
:sealeo::swalot::duskull::furret::vibrava::houndour: (R2)

SergioRules · Dec 19, 2023

So it's time for an update and oh boy do we have a big one for ya.

BATON PASS IS ONCE AGAIN UNBANNED!

However, with this comes a caveat. We wanted to make a change, as stat passing seemed a little bit too strong but outright banning Baton Pass was a quite unpopular decision. Instead, we are allowing unlimited users of Baton Pass but Baton Pass and stat-boosting moves cannot be used on the same set.

The options were:

Keep full ban as currently is
Revert to old BP Clause (One passer, no Speed+other stats)
Limit to only one Baton Pass user with no stat-boosting moves
Allow multiple Baton Passers with no stat-boosting moves

Forms response chart. Question title: Which of the following options do you think is the best course of action regarding Baton Pass in ADV PU?. Number of responses: 17 responses.

For example some LEGAL sets are:

Minun with Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Substitute / Baton Pass
Minun with Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Substitute / Agility
Mawile with Swords Dance / HP Steel / Brick Break / Rock Slide
Mawile with Baton Pass / Seismic Toss / Toxic / Protect
Volbeat with Tail Glow / Ice Punch / Thunderbolt / Moonlight
Minun with Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Substitute / Baton Pass holding a Salac Berry (pinch berries are a little too situational for us to see them as broken at the moment)
~~Togetic with Ancient Power / Baton Pass~~ ~~(moves with a chance to raise stats are also too situational since they are not guaranteed and require the player to use mostly suboptimal Pokemon, they are allowed for now)~~
- These sets are no longer permitted to retain continuity with other lower tiers.

Some ILLEGAL sets would be

Minun with Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Agility / Baton Pass
Volbeat with Tail Glow / Baton Pass

Tagging Kris for implementation.

This will be a huge shake up to the metagame and as such we are working on getting together a VR update (soon hopefully) and getting new sample teams that adhere to this new Baton Pass clause! Stay tuned for more!

SergioRules · Dec 29, 2023

And just before the year ends, it's time for an update to the VR! This was made with the recent Baton Pass clause in mind, so Trapinch isn't an S-rank. I'll be updating the OP shortly after this post

BP · Dec 29, 2023

Sergio is by far the GOAT

Gangsta Spongebob · Dec 29, 2023

If SergioRules has a million fans, I'm one of them

If SergioRules has five fans, I'm one of them

If SergioRules has one fan, that one is me

If SergioRules has no fans, then I am no longer alive

If the world is against SergioRules, then I am against the entire world

Till my last breath, I'll support SergioRules

... To avoid posting a one-liner, I'd like to ask everyone what sets they've been running with Swalot in ADV PU. The mon is crazy versatile, and while it has some fixtures like Boom and Sludge Bomb, it seems to have a move to flip any matchup.

Kahila911 · Jan 15, 2024

One mon my friends and I have been messing around is Clefairy, access to Encore, Twave, Sing, Soft Boiled, Wish and both Screens made it surprisngly sturdy for us, if there's some reason why its untiered I wanna ask why

We love Pippi :3

Gangsta Spongebob · Jan 15, 2024

Kahila911 said:
One mon my friends and I have been messing around is Clefairy, access to Encore, Twave, Sing, Soft Boiled, Wish and both Screens made it surprisngly sturdy for us, if there's some reason why its untiered I wanna ask why

We love Pippi :3

Despite Clefairy's large number of utility moves, it's just too underpowered for the tier. It was barely strong enough to have a tiny niche in pre-unfreeze ZU, let alone the much stronger PU.

Kahila911 · Jan 15, 2024

Gangsta Spongebob said:
Despite Clefairy's large number of utility moves, it's just too underpowered for the tier. It was barely strong enough to have a tiny niche in pre-unfreeze ZU, let alone the much stronger PU.

Yeah, an issue we ran into with her is that due to her low offenses she was better off running Seismic Toss, which led her to be walled by any of the 3 ghost types avaliable to use, and if she wasn't 3HKOing she was in trouble against stronger attackers, or Rest mons

wooper · Jan 15, 2024

Kahila911 said:
Yeah, an issue we ran into with her is that due to her low offenses she was better off running Seismic Toss, which led her to be walled by any of the 3 ghost types avaliable to use, and if she wasn't 3HKOing she was in trouble against stronger attackers, or Rest mons

i think when he said underpowered, gangsta spongebob was referring to clef's inability to serve as a viable wall, not necessarily to its offense prowess (or lack thereof). despite all of its neat utility options, clef's defensive stats of 70/48/65 just simply cant keep up with a lot of the mons that are now relevant with the powercreep, like mawile, swalot, and arbok

Gangsta Spongebob · Jan 16, 2024

Kahila911 said:
Yeah, an issue we ran into with her is that due to her low offenses she was better off running Seismic Toss, which led her to be walled by any of the 3 ghost types avaliable to use, and if she wasn't 3HKOing she was in trouble against stronger attackers, or Rest mons

While what wooper is exactly what I meant, its meager offensive presence is another big issue against Clefairy. When a Pokemon is passive it's really in an uphill battle for viability, and while Clefairy's utility and coverage somewhat offset this, it isn't enough due to how bad its stats are.

Kahila911 · Jan 16, 2024

These are not even counting Spikes. Quilava has the potential to be an amazing threat if you manage to eliminate Houndour and Abra

This thing has the potential to be quite silly, but Idunno how it compares to both Combusken and Charmeleon

SergioRules · Jan 16, 2024

Kahila911 said:
These are not even counting Spikes. Quilava has the potential to be an amazing threat if you manage to eliminate Houndour and Abra

View attachment 593328

View attachment 593329

View attachment 593331

View attachment 593332
View attachment 593333

View attachment 593335

View attachment 593342

This thing has the potential to be quite silly, but Idunno how it compares to both Combusken and Charmeleon

While this does bring up the interesting point of Quilava having a more powerful Fire STAB that Charmeleon does not, what I think you're forgetting is that Blast Burn is a highly abusable move by the opponent. In addition, Pokemon that are naturally faster than Quilava like Seadra, Volbeat, and two of the best Pokemon in the tier Minun and Furret can handle this, while Quick Attack users do as well. Your calcs are a bit misleading as Nosepass, Clamperl, and Wartortle aren't necessarily high ranked threats (Nosepass isn't even close to being ranked), Kingler has never been known for its special bulk, and Swalot is still eating a +1 Blaze boosted 150 power STAB move and it easily KOs you the turn after.

Charmeleon shares exactly the same stats as Quilava and offers better coverage in Dragon Claw and Thunder Punch. Quilava's only real advantage it has over Charmeleon is its access to Quick Attack, allowing it to pick off weakened faster Pokemon like the aforementioned. The extra 30 power of Blast Burn is almost never going to be worth the free turn it provides when compared to Fire Blast.

Kahila911 · Jan 16, 2024

SergioRules said:
View attachment 562095
Art by IoSonoNeon
Approved by Hiro'

Welcome to ADV PU! In this thread you will find ADV PU's resources such as Sample Teams, Viability Rankings, and our ongoing metagame discussion.
Sit and stay awhile, we're happy to have you!

Species Clause: A player's team cannot contain two Pokémon with the same National Pokédex number.

Sleep Clause: If a player has already put a Pokémon on his/her opponent's side to sleep and it is still sleeping, another one can't be put to sleep.

Evasion Clause: A Pokémon's moveset cannot contain the moves Double Team or Minimize.

OHKO Clause: A Pokémon's moveset cannot contain the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.

Endless Battle Clause: A player cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from being able to end the game without forfeiting.

Baton Pass Clause: A Pokémon's moveset cannot contain the move Baton Pass.

ADV Mechanics:
For those unfamiliar with ADV, certain aspects are greatly different from more recent generations.

There is no team preview, your first Pokemon sent out is the first one in your team.

A move being physical or special is determined by the type of the move.

Physical moves: Normal, Fighting, Rock, Ground, Ghost, Poison, Steel, Bug, Flying

Special moves: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Ice, Psychic, Dark, Dragon

This means Hidden Power can be Physical as well as Special.

Steel resists Dark and Ghost.

Many items do not exist yet, notably Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb, Expert Belt, Eviolite, and more.

Grass-types can be affected by powder moves. Electric-types can be paralyzed by Thunder Wave.

Rest and Sleep Talk work weirdly, read this post for more information.

Explosion and Self-Destruct halve Defense in the damage calculation, so their powers may be listed as 500 and 400 respectively.

Wish is not based on the user's HP and only heals 50% of the max HP of the receiver.

Pokemon are ordered within their ranks based on the most viable. List does not include every legal Pokemon.

S Rank: Pokemon that define the metagame and consistently perform well
S
:minun:Minun
:swalot:Swalot

A Rank: Pokemon that are very good and will usually add something significant to a team
A+
:furret:Furret
:sealeo:Sealeo
:marshtomp:Marshtomp
:omanyte:Omanyte

A
:mawile:Mawile
:duskull:Duskull
:seadra:Seadra
:arbok:Arbok
:tangela:Tangela
:lickitung:Lickitung

A-
:vibrava:Vibrava
:grovyle:Grovyle
:seviper:Seviper
:ivysaur:Ivysaur
:dragonair:Dragonair
:charmeleon:Charmeleon
:trapinch:Trapinch
:togetic:Togetic

B Rank: Pokemon that are usable but may have some minor drawbacks
B+
:shuckle:Shuckle
:kingler:Kingler
:houndour:Houndour
:abra:Abra
:tropius:Tropius
:gastly:Gastly
:shelgon:Shelgon

B
:wigglytuff:Wigglytuff
:chinchou:Chinchou
:combusken:Combusken
:mightyena:Mightyena
:yanma:Yanma
:magcargo:Magcargo

B-
:lairon:Lairon
:wartortle:Wartortle
:graveler:Graveler
:dustox:Dustox
:beedrill:Beedrill
:volbeat:Volbeat
:quilava:Quilava
:elekid:Elekid
:doduo:Doduo

C Rank: Pokemon that either have major flaws or are outclassed and may need significant support
:clamperl:Clamperl
:snorunt:Snorunt
:bayleef:Bayleef
:noctowl:Noctowl
:lombre:Lombre
:ariados:Ariados
:magby:Magby
:anorith:Anorith
:masquerain:Masquerain

THESE TEAMS ARE OUTDATED AND DO NOT NECESSARILY COMPLY WITH THE RECENT BATON PASS BAN, WE ARE WORKING ON GETTING MORE TEAMS
FOR LEGAL TEAMS FOR THE ADV PU OPEN SEE THIS POST

Big Stall by MrSoup [importable]
:omanyte::shelgon::duskull::wartortle::mawile::lickitung:
CB Furret+DD Dragonair by MrSoup [importable]
:furret::seadra::houndour::ivysaur::mawile::dragonair:
Special Dragonair+CB Crab by MrSoup [importable]
:dragonair::mawile::ivysaur::marshtomp::gastly::kingler:
SD Tropius Flying Spam by TONE [importable]
:lairon::seadra::doduo::tropius::delcatty::omanyte:
Sub SD Kingler by Eve [importable]

ARCHIVE
Arbok Balance by BP [importable]
:omanyte::arbok::togetic::abra::mawile::sealeo:
Abra FWG by BP [importable]
:abra::sealeo::magcargo::ivysaur::duskull::mawile:
Sun by BP [importable]
:swalot::volbeat::tropius::charmeleon::tangela::houndour:
CB Kingler Balance [importable]
:omanyte::kingler::togetic::magcargo::dragonair::abra:
SpDef Noctowl Balance by TONE [importable]

Charmeleon Anti-Lead by SergioRules [importable]

SD Anorith Offense by Tack [importable]

Standard Offense [importable]

Charmeleon Offense by Akir [importable]

Banded Marshtomp Balance [importable]

SubSeed Grovyle Balance [importable]

Furret Spikes Balance [importable]

Walls (reliable recovery):

:lickitung:(Wish)

:tangela::togetic::tropius:
Walls (no reliable recovery):

:magcargo::mawile:
Clerics:

:lickitung:
Common Leads:

Normal Checks:

:graveler::magcargo::mawile:
Water Checks:

Ground Checks:

:seadra::tropius:
Fire Checks:

:graveler::kingler::magcargo::seadra:
(Physical) Dragonair Checks:

:mawile:
Priority (Quick Attack):

Wallbreakers:

:abra::arbok::swalot:
Spikes:

Rapid Spin:

Set Up Sweepers:
Swords Dance:

:kingler::lickitung::mawile::tropius:
Calm Mind:

:abra:
Agility:

:seadra:
Other (Curse, Dragon Dance, Belly Drum. Tail Glow):

:lickitung:

:shelgon:

:volbeat:
Pinch Berry (Salac, Liechi, Petaya):

/

/:abra:
Weather Abusers:

:seadra:/

:tangela::tropius:

/tour create Gen 3 NU, elimination
/tour name Gen 3 PU
/tour rules -bellossom, -cacturne, -chimecho, -dewgong, -flareon, -glalie, -golbat, -haunter, -hitmonchan, -huntail, -kecleon, -metang, -murkrow, -octillery, -pidgeot, -pikachu, -plusle, -pupitar, -raticate, -relicanth, -roselia, -sableye, -sudowoodo, -torkoal, -vigoroth, -whiscash, -crawdaunt, -diglett, -machoke, -pelipper, -venomoth, -wailord, -dunsparce, -piloswine

FEs / NEs
Aipom Arbok Ariados Beautifly Beedrill Butterfree Castform Corsola Delcatty Delibird Ditto Dustox Furret Farfetch'd Illumise Kingler Ledian Lickitung Luvdisc Magcargo Masquerain Mawile Mightyena Minun Noctowl Nosepass Parasect Seadra Seaking Seviper Shedinja Shuckle Spinda Sunflora Swalot Tangela Togetic Tropius Unown Volbeat Wigglytuff Yanma

NFEs
Bayleef Cascoon Charmeleon Clefairy Combusken Croconaw Dragonair Flaaffy Gloom Graveler Grovyle Ivysaur Jigglypuff Kakuna Kirlia Lairon Lombre Loudred Marill Marshtomp Metapod Nidorina Nidorino Nuzleaf Pidgeotto Poliwhirl Quilava Sealeo Shelgon Silcoon Skiploom Vibrava Wartortle Weepinbell

LC / First evolution stage
Abra Anorith Aron Azurill Bagon Baltoy Barboach Beldum Bellsprout Bulbasaur Cacnea Carvanha Caterpie Charmander Chikorita Chinchou Clamperl Cleffa Corphish Cubone Cyndaquil Doduo Dratini Drowze Duskull Eevee Ekans Electrike Elekid Exeggcute Feebas Gastly Geodude Goldeen Grimer Growlithe Gulpin Hoothoot Hoppip Horsea Houndour Igglybuff Kabuto Koffing Krabby Larvitar Ledyba Lileep Lotad Machop Magby Magikarp Magnemite Makuhita Mankey Mareep Meditite Meowth Mudkip Natu Nidoran-F Nidoran-M Nincada Numel Oddish Omanyte Onix Paras Phanpy Pichu Pidgey Pineco Poliwag Ponyta Poochyena Porygon Psyduck Ralts Rattata Remoraid Rhyhorn Sandshrew Seedot Seel Sentret Shellder Shroomish Shuppet Skitty Slakoth Slowpoke Slugma Smoochum Snorunt Snubbull Spearow Spheal Spinarak Spoink Squirtle Staryu Sunkern Surskit Swablu Swinub Taillow Teddiursa Tentacool Togepi Torchic Totodile Trapinch Treecko Tyrogue Venonat Voltorb Vulpix Wailmer Weedle Whismur Wingull Wooper Wurmple Zigzagoon Zubat

May this be edited to mention that Baton Pass has been unbanned?

Kahila911 · Jan 17, 2024

Question regarding Furret, other than being incredibly scary late game with CB Return/Double Edge, what other roles can it fill?

Aurist · Jan 18, 2024

Kahila911 said:
Question regarding Furret, other than being incredibly scary late game with CB Return/Double Edge, what other roles can it fill?

Furret is also often used as a Lead (with the same CB set) due to its ability to outspeed and/or threaten much of the meta with KOs, acting as an early/mid game breaker. There is a Role Compendium in the original post which you can look for :furret: in, as far as I'm aware it pretty much always runs Choice Band no matter where you're placing it in a team.

Monai · May 19, 2024

I'm often picked up to play these super random tiers, and was picked up for ADV PU this year. I've gotta say it was a super fun and interesting tier IMO and big ty to mad dawg especially for testing and building with me. I've posted a bunch of my observations on the tier and might play it again next ADVPL or sign up for PUPL

I'll put thoughts I think are controversial or general notes

S: Minun is the king and is undroppable

S-: Considered putting duskull here but it doesn't have quite the same splashability as Swalot and Togetic even if it has the same impact. They're broken and can be slotted on like 80% of teams.

A+: Pretty style defining, I encountered very little Furret during the tour despite its ability to brute force checks but maybe no one wanted to get flame body burned by magcargo. Dnair may be a little controversial but paralysis is king and its ability to deal with status, spread it, have broken resists and run whatever set it wants felt incredible.

A: Have flaws that A don't but feel equally necessary on teams for defensive and offensive roles. Magcargo and Grav are EXCELLENT and should be considered on any team that needs a normal resist; Furret is just wayyyyy too punishing for teams without one.

A-: Ruining the aesthetic by not putting all the starters together. I liked Wart as a Sealeo alternative that shored up against spikes and Lairon has other cool roles compared to Grav. TBH Maw should be B.

B+: Omanyte here will probably get the pitchforks out but it felt only applicable on fat. It was also very easy for me to stick HP grass on a huge number of mons and completely cuck the pressure stall could put out on me. Pineco replicated the niche pretty well on offense and felt like a solid lead, able to trade spikes and look for booms. We really wanted to make Wigglytuff work but couldn't figure it out, although normal typing good stats and good movepool means theres something that isnt outclassed by licky fs.

B: Kingler probably deserves higher tbh but these are all niche mons at best. Vibrava probably deserves lower honestly, has very little defensive utility, isn't very fast and isn't very strong.

B-: Everything here should definitely be zu. Grovyles only role is letting minun get parad, not having a swalot, and still feeling decently safe against waters.

Comps in this tier pretty much always started with me thinking about Minun, poison, water resist, and then normal resist. Water spam, tox spam, and stall all felt very powerful and strong, but the best style had to be paraspam. Fitting 2 paralysis users on a team was extremely easy and the benefits of Graveler, Marsh, Pinch, Lairon, Swalot, and or Sealeo when supported by para was devastating. If I had to identify an issue with the tier at all, it would be the enormous amount of para running around which turns otherwise consistent interactions into borderline coinflips after fishing para with sub on graveler or swalot for 2-3 turns.

Trapinch seems like a very volatile part of the meta and a huge abuser of paralysis, although I'm not sure if I would support a ban? It can be used to open up either extremely punishing offensive mons like seadra or pick off stallbreakers like swalot or minun, and is only really counterbalanced by the fact that like 4-5 of the best pokemon are all weak to it and trapinch cannot trap them all. Would consider looking into a suspect for it.

Kahila911 · May 26, 2024

Monai said:
I'm often picked up to play these super random tiers, and was picked up for ADV PU this year. I've gotta say it was a super fun and interesting tier IMO and big ty to mad dawg especially for testing and building with me. I've posted a bunch of my observations on the tier and might play it again next ADVPL or sign up for PUPL

View attachment 634094
I'll put thoughts I think are controversial or general notes

S: Minun is the king and is undroppable

S-: Considered putting duskull here but it doesn't have quite the same splashability as Swalot and Togetic even if it has the same impact. They're broken and can be slotted on like 80% of teams.

A+: Pretty style defining, I encountered very little Furret during the tour despite its ability to brute force checks but maybe no one wanted to get flame body burned by magcargo. Dnair may be a little controversial but paralysis is king and its ability to deal with status, spread it, have broken resists and run whatever set it wants felt incredible.

A: Have flaws that A don't but feel equally necessary on teams for defensive and offensive roles. Magcargo and Grav are EXCELLENT and should be considered on any team that needs a normal resist; Furret is just wayyyyy too punishing for teams without one.

A-: Ruining the aesthetic by not putting all the starters together. I liked Wart as a Sealeo alternative that shored up against spikes and Lairon has other cool roles compared to Grav. TBH Maw should be B.

B+: Omanyte here will probably get the pitchforks out but it felt only applicable on fat. It was also very easy for me to stick HP grass on a huge number of mons and completely cuck the pressure stall could put out on me. Pineco replicated the niche pretty well on offense and felt like a solid lead, able to trade spikes and look for booms. We really wanted to make Wigglytuff work but couldn't figure it out, although normal typing good stats and good movepool means theres something that isnt outclassed by licky fs.

B: Kingler probably deserves higher tbh but these are all niche mons at best. Vibrava probably deserves lower honestly, has very little defensive utility, isn't very fast and isn't very strong.

B-: Everything here should definitely be zu. Grovyles only role is letting minun get parad, not having a swalot, and still feeling decently safe against waters.

Comps in this tier pretty much always started with me thinking about Minun, poison, water resist, and then normal resist. Water spam, tox spam, and stall all felt very powerful and strong, but the best style had to be paraspam. Fitting 2 paralysis users on a team was extremely easy and the benefits of Graveler, Marsh, Pinch, Lairon, Swalot, and or Sealeo when supported by para was devastating. If I had to identify an issue with the tier at all, it would be the enormous amount of para running around which turns otherwise consistent interactions into borderline coinflips after fishing para with sub on graveler or swalot for 2-3 turns.

Trapinch seems like a very volatile part of the meta and a huge abuser of paralysis, although I'm not sure if I would support a ban? It can be used to open up either extremely punishing offensive mons like seadra or pick off stallbreakers like swalot or minun, and is only really counterbalanced by the fact that like 4-5 of the best pokemon are all weak to it and trapinch cannot trap them all. Would consider looking into a suspect for it.

I think you're underrating Mawile and Mightyena a lil', the former can be run as a this ultra thick defensive mon with Intimidate and Baton Pass, or as an extremely oppressive Swords Dancer, while the latter is a very bulky cleric that can shut down even Swalot with, again, Intimidate, and even weirder stuff like Growl+Rest, or just get defense drops with Crunch/Shadow Ball to set up for something else

Lily · Jun 10, 2024

Haven't really done much by way of VR stuff in a while and this is easily my favourite tier of all time, so I figured it was about time I made one of those really long posts that most people probably don't read the full way through.

S+ Rank
:rs/minun:
Minun is undroppable. Anything that drops it is a meme and will not work consistently. It is immensely versatile between being the fastest viable Pokemon, having plenty of attacking options between obligatory Thunderbolt & its choice of Hidden Power or Seismic Toss, and then its auxiliary status choices in TWave, Toxic, Wish, Sub, BP, Encore etc - it abuses everything that's strong in this tier like all the powerful Waters, Togetic, Paraspam (which it facilitates better than anything else save for maybe Dragonair), and it's also the main thing that keeps Furret honest.

S Rank
:rs/marshtomp:
Marshtomp, while not as good as Minun, is sort of in a league of its own. It's so strong and difficult to switch into given its versatility; it can slam Tangela with Ice Beam, Duskull with HP Ghost, Togetic with Rock Slide, and there aren't really many super strong physically defensive mons to tank it. Stuff like Wigglytuff and Lickitung *can* run physdef spreads to take it on but they almost always wanna be SpDef so that Charmeleon doesn't pick every single time it gets on the field and so they can better handle Minun. It'd be one thing if it had all these good traits without being fast or defensively valuable, but it is both of those things... like sure it's pretty slow but it's plenty quick enough to outrun defensive mons like Swalot, Ivysaur, Duskull, Licki, Wiggly, Togetic etc. and also potentially even Tangela. It does all this while being a bulky Poison resist, not even being mortally threatened by most Grass moves (Giga Drain from Arbok is quite weak, it tanks it from Swalot too, HP Grass from Minun isn't an ohko etc.). Completely invalidates TBolt / HPIce Minun which is pretty much exclusive to it and the Wish Normals. It's just so hard to drop when it does so much in one slot. Swampert Jr, figuratively and literally.

S- Rank
:rs/sealeo:
Sealeo is the best Water check while also being the best Water (kinda... Marshtomp is sort of barely a Water lol). Water + Ice is super difficult to switch into for anything that's not a Wish Normal or opposing Sealeo, which is what makes stuff like Seadra so scary, especially because the Grasses are specially frail enough that even Seadra's Ice Beam feels like a STAB move. To quote Eve, "every Water in this tier has stab on Ice Beam but Sealeo has ultrastab on it". It's also insanely threatening and versatile thanks to its move options in Toxic, Protect, and Encore, and Freeze fishing is legtimately a perfectly viable strategy against the Wish Normals thanks to how many opportunities Sealeo gets to do shit. It's also one of the few things capable of putting a huge dent in...

:rs/dragonair:
Dragonair, a former "good but not great" Pokemon that stuck to its threatening DD sets which are no longer very scary at all. The proliferation of its TWave + Rest sets, however, has turned it into a nightmare to face. Basically nothing can safely absorb Dragonair and actually threaten it back save for Sealeo, which still takes a decent amount from HP Grass and the rarer Thunderbolt. Wish Normals, Duskull and opposing Dragonair can all kinda tango with it but none really immediately threaten it and it's often a PP stall game against it. It's great at spreading TWave and is one of the best "utility checks", since you can use it to switch into and annoy basically anything if you really want it to; I personally like 200 Speed + PDef sets to handle Marshtomp decently, but SpDef is also fairly common as a way to handle Magcargo and Minun. Excellent mon, arguably even too good at what it does.

~~
From here on, things aren't necessarily ordered within their tiers.
~~

A+ Rank
:rs/furret:
Furret is one of the strongest pure wallbreakers in the tier. A solid Normal resist is absolutely mandatory on every single team and Furret is the reason why. It is just too fast and too strong to ignore; you can't really out-offense it. There are some good soft checks that aren't necessarily bulky Normal resists like Tangela and the hella niche PDef Masquerain but you really do need to have a good plan vs this thing at all times lest you get bowled over by it. A well-played Furret is the biggest threat in ADV PU.

:rs/charmeleon:
Charmeleon is essentially unwallable, putting major dents in absolutely everything save for Magcargo. Its Fire Blast tears the tier to shreds and backing this up is not only the quintessential HP Grass, but also the rare and useful Dragon Claw - this is particularly important with Dragonair often dropping Thunderbolt now in favour of some combination of Ice Beam, Flamethrower, and HP Grass, letting Charmeleon get free Substitutes on it. Because of this, Charmeleon also has fairly significant defensive value, as it can abuse not only Dragonair but also Duskull and Tangela/Ivysaur quite heavily. Wish Normals and Togetic are your best bets in terms of being safe against it without the snail, but seriously nothing is ironclad, especially with Sunny Day Mawile in the back (which is extremely valuable support that's also quite easy to fit).

:rs/duskull:
If not for ADV's weirdo sleep mechanics, Duskull would probably be an S rank contender. You can throw it in vs like 70% of the tier and have it at least do something, with it being a particularly excellent check to some otherwise big threats like Arbok, Furret, and non-Crunch Seviper. It's also great at taking advantage of passive Pokemon like Tangela, Swalot, Togetic, and Wigglytuff to spread burns. The big issue with Duskull is that it's reliant on RestTalk loops and that can be a big problem if it's forced out after clicking Sleep Talk, and it's also fodder for Charmeleon and Magcargo. Still an excellent mon though.

:rs/mawile:
The best guy to throw directly into Furret and the CEO of clicking Baton Pass and nothing else, Mawile is a very useful teammate to have thanks to all those resists. Intimidate is an incredibly useful ability and Mawile is never a momentum sink thanks to how freely it gets to BP on everything while also being decently annoying to switch into itself thanks to the SToss + Toxic combo. It can be a little frustrating against Fire Punch Swalot, EQ Arbok, and Flamethrower Dragonair, but the ability to act as a one-time pivot into Everything really can't be understated.

:rs/swalot:
I had Swalot in S before but I think its flaws have become more apparent over time. It's really lacking in resists - which is sorta fine, because it stat gaps everything anyway - and it's not that strong - which is also fine, because it has coverage out the ass. This leads to Swalot being a jack of all trades, since it's decently threatening to everything and also good at stopgapping everything, but it rarely puts up an excellent performance and it's also only decent at abusing the things it wants to take advantage of since a lot of the time stuff like Ivy and Dragonair aren't immediately threatened by you. It's also super owned by Trapinch. That said, Swalot is the CEO of versatility and can be molded to do whatever you want; I prefer the offensive sets with HP Ground + Explosion, but I know a lot of people swear by bulky SpDef sets as a Minun check that doesn't immediately explode to a random Hidden Power. Definitely the best Poison.

:rs/togetic:
If anything feels like an immortal bastard, it's Togetic. One-turn recovery is rare in ADV PU as-is, and most of the Pokemon that do learn it are things like Staryu and Tropius that have pretty significant flaws. Togetic on the other hand has an amazing defensive typing, incredible bulk, an endless movepool, and great stats that make it sorta do whatever you want. It has flaws in that it lacks resistances, so it can't super safely handle stuff like Charmeleon and Furret, and it's also a status sponge, but seriously this thing just does whatever you want it to thanks to its amazing coverage and deceptively strong 80 SpA. Being a Flying type also really helps in pivoting around choiced Arbok/Vibrava.

A Rank
:rs/arbok:
In general, I think Arbok is worse than Swalot, WIth that said, it has some very noteworthy traits; it's fast, it hits pretty hard, it has great coverage in Earthquake, but above all else it has Glare which lets it land paralysis on some stuff that's otherwise hard to get it on like Marshtomp and Togetic. Glare aside it's just a solid breaker and Intimidate gives it value even though it's so frail that it still gets toasted by Furret since it can let other teammates pick up the slack.

:rs/seadra:
Seadra is a pretty noteworthy threat that does big damage but it's hard to justify using it over Sealeo which also does big damage and has defensive utility. I think Seadra's best traits are as part of Waterspam teams and also on HO; fortunately those are a Lot of teams so it's pretty easy for Seadra to find its way onto teams. Not much really boosts its Speed in this tier and Seadra also has pretty good physical bulk which lets it handle the only priority move (Quick Attack from Furret or Trapinch) decently well, so Agility is a cool niche. Would be really great if it kept Swift Swim from Horsea...

:rs/trapinch:
The king of bullshit, Trapinch dictates the viability of some mons pretty heavily. It's really good at trapping Poisons, very easily getting the trap off on Swalot and Arbok; it can also nail Magcargo and slow Omanyte. It's also decent at getting a trap off against Lickitung and Wigglytuff, and it provides good value with Quick Attack. This all basically means it's a good partner for certain mons like Charmeleon, Furret, and your own Arbok. You have to heavily respect Trapinch in the builder; people who don't mix in Baton Pass on their Minuns can very quickly fall victim to a smart Trapinch user.

A- Rank
:rs/ivysaur:
The proliferation of Swalot and Tangela means Ivysaur has a frustrating guy to deal with and strong competition, but it's still very solid. Not being mortally afraid of Ice Beam is super helpful in switching into Marshtomp and Seadra, especially since it can avoid the 2HKO from Adamant EQ with some smart EVing. Sleep Powder and Leech Seed are still intensely obnoxious to switch into, and since Tangela can't run Leech Seed + Morning Sun due to movepool incompatibilities, this is a pretty unique niche for Ivysaur. SD can be a big threat if Mawile or Duskull is removed.

:rs/omanyte:
This lil dude has seen better days, but Omanyte is still the best spiker. With Furret usage being lower for one reason or another, it's harder than ever to find turns to come in and click your move, and the fact that Grass coverage is everywhere for Marshtomp is a big issue. With that said, there is a ton of experimentation to be done here... maybe some SpDef or Timid sets can help it get a Spike more reliably against stuff like Togetic, Duskull or Mawile. Mandatory on Rain.

:rs/seviper:
The Other Poison. Seviper is awkward because it has like no defensive value but it's really really tough to switch into with all that coverage and deceptively great Speed tier on top of just having the best attacking stats in the tier. Crunch sets also let it switch into Duskull pretty well since it can Shed Skin burns away so that's something. Requires some specific building support since you lose out on a ton of value by not running Swalot or Arbok but this is one of the few cases where it's wroth it to do that.

:rs/wigglytuff:
Good old Wish Wigglytuff is pretty good although competition with Lickitung is very real now. The reason I have it above Licki is the offensive sets that have been popping up. Sub sets play like an alternative Furret that's a lot slower but has bluff value and a much more bulky Sub. Can be very frustrating to deal with, especially with Body Slam luck.

:rs/magcargo:
Truthfully Magcargo is pretty ass but I've come to respect it a bit more. It's the most Trapinch'd mon in the tier, it's a normal resist that doesn't really beat Furret that well if it doesn't get lucky, it's completely invalidated by Dragonair without exploding on it, and it doesn't actually check anything very well save for Charmeleon and Duskull. With all that said, Fire STAB is pretty broken in this tier and in non-Dnair matchups it's one of the most frustrating things to run into. I don't really believe in these Self-Destruct sets but I do think offensive investment is what makes it good; I ran a set with Toxic and Refresh in ADVPL Semifinals TB and it pulled its weight quite well. Distinctly worse Fire than Charmeleon due to lacking coverage and abysmal Speed but still a pretty good mon.

~~
From here I have less to say about these guys in general so things will be shorter.
~~

B+ Rank
:rs/graveler:
Graveler is a Certified Good Paralysis Abuser and a serviceable Normal resist that just has way too many weaknesses to common attacking types to be super consistent. Strong EQ is very valuable and Rock Slide is great at bullshitting games.

:rs/kingler:
Slightly better at abusing Paralysis at the cost of lacking defensive utility beyond its raw bulk, Kingler is the most on-paper mon of all time. It's threatening but not threatening enough, and its special bulk really lets it down. It's fast and strong as shit and has stats out the ass so surely there's something here we just haven't figured out...

:rs/houndour:
Houndour is threatening to switch into and traps Duskull extremely well, which is very valuable for stuff like Furret and Arbok. Can be pretty obnoxious to deal with since Dark resists are nonexistent; the only one is Mawile which lol. Pursuit is always valuable and Flash Fire is very nice vs Charmeleon and Magcargo.

:rs/lickitung:
Lickitung... what do I even say. Good Wisher, Heal Bell is rare and useful, Knock Off can be nice, Seismic Toss is tough to switch into when everything has a base HP of 2, and it's very bulky. Crolicki does not convince me but I'm sure I'll eat my words on that.

:rs/shuckle:
Perhaps the only tier where it's better to run Attack EVs on this guy, Shuckle is a passably threatening mon when fully invested while completely ironclad against Furret, Swalot, and Arbok. Not quite bulky enough to handle stuff like Charmeleon and typing leaves it very vulnerable to Sealeo, Refresh Marshtomp, and I mean it's a Shuckle so its Rest loops are gonna be abused or it's gonna get worn down if it runs Tect sets. Still quite good though.

B Rank
:rs/grovyle:
Grovyle is genuinely awful so I rank it here solely for usage. Lead Endeavour sets are pretty much the only reason to use this but it's super walled by Minun and Ivysaur and even Tangela, stopped in its tracks by Fires and Dragonair, and has to rely on Petaya Overgrow crits to really pose a significant threat.

:rs/snorunt:
Snorunt is solely useful as a Spikes lead with Endure Salac. Good at getting one up and maybe getting an Icy Wind off but that's about it. Noteworthy bc it outspeeds Minun at +1.

:rs/beedrill:
Quite the fall from grace but Beedrill is still threatening. It essentially mandates Houndour support to get rid of Duskull, but if you can manage that then SD + Sludge Bomb + HP Ground is very threatening, and it can fit any of Sub, Agility, or even Rest with Chesto in the last slot. Deceptively good special bulk can let it get nice setup turns on Sealeo, Dragonair, and even Minun. Just very specific and usually not worth the effort.

:rs/clamperl:
With DeepSeaTooth Clamperl is yet another Good Paralysis Abuser, honestly probably better than most of this rank. Entirely locked to paraspam but those teams are good enough to justify its use.

:rs/corsola:
CM Corsola is genuinely decently threatening and has decent flexibility in the last slot thanks to Toxic and Ice Beam letting it frustrate different things (Toxic owns Sealeo, Ice Beam owns Tangela, etc). Would be a lot better if it was pure Water but oh well. Good Normal resist and 32 PP Recover + Natural Cure is pretty cool.

:rs/gastly:
If you play like a god Gastly is a big ass threat with its coverage and great SpA, and it can get turns on Furret and sometimes Swalot/Arbok so it's not entirely lacking defensively. Will die to a sneeze though.

:rs/combusken:
Combusken is pretty interesting as a Fire with much more immediate threat potential into Sealeo but it's just so slow that it's difficult to justify using. SD is cool.

:rs/lairon:
Mostly eclipsed by Graveler these days but Lairon has value thanks to its slightly better stats and Steel typing letting it act as a better Normal resist, though it does explode against Fighting moves. Can tank the common HP Grass a lot better and still hits hard, though lacking STAB on EQ is sad.

:rs/mightyena:
Heal Bell is cool, Crunch is decently threatening even with its crappy SpA, and Intimidate makes it really bulky, but Mightyena just doesn't do enough to be worth it most of the time.

:rs/tropius:
Great movepool and honestly great stats for ADV PU standards has led to Tropius seeing more experimentation lately, but I'm not convinced as of yet. I would like to see where it goes from here... SD is cool since EQ is very scary for Poisons and instant recovery is neat. Quad Ice weakness is brutal though.

:rs/vibrava:
Vibrava has fallen off very significantly but strong EQ is still decently valuable, Quick Attack is useful, and if you get good clicks with Rock Slide and HP Ghost there are definitely situations where this thing can go the distance. Tragic that it's decidedly worse than its prevolution.

B- Rank
:rs/abra:
Abra gets Screens up and dies. Psychic is scary to switch into but it can never get a turn to click it. Owned by fat Normals.

:rs/chinchou:
The mascot! Chinchou is a Minun check that really can't fit all the moves it needs to be good and just doesn't have the stats to be useful.

:rs/dustox:
Dustox is like... a mildly annoying Toxic spreader with Thief to punish non-Sticky Hold Swalot, which is most of them. I guess it's something.

:rs/elekid:
Elekid is like Minun if it traded all defensive value and utility for the ability to run both Hidden Powers at the same time. Can threaten fat Normals but it's just too weak to be good.

:rs/lombre:
Defensive Lombre is pretty useless these days outside of being a mildly acceptable Marshtomp check, but offensive sets are good on Rain.

:rs/masquerain:
Masquerain is pretty bulky with Intimidate, Haze can be kinda useful, against stuff like Crolicki, Whirlwind is nice with Spikes, serviceable Toxic spreader thanks to its strong-ish Ice Beam threatening Dragonair. Not very good but passable.

:rs/wartortle:
Wartortle is strictly worse than Sealeo unless you really need Haze or Rapid Spin which you don't because nothing sets up and nothing clicks Spikes.

:rs/yanma:
There will always be someone trying and failing to cheese a win with Yanma but don't let them fool you, this thing is useless.

:rs/shelgon:
Wish on a Dragon is unique and lets Shelgon kinda set itself apart but it's too passive to be great and it's not that bulky either. Just use Dragonair.

C Rank
:rs/bayleef:
In a world where you can use any other Grass-type, don't use Bayleef. Its sole advantage is Screens which I guess is something, and it's the best of the Grasses at beating Marshtomp.

:rs/doduo:
Doduo's just worse than Furret since the Flying STAB doesn't let you beat anything Furret doesn't already own, but it can work well with it as like a second Furret.

:rs/ledian:
Formerly an acceptable passer of Swords Dance or Agility, Ledian unfortunately just lacks any value with the new BP clause in mind, but it's pretty fast and bulky so it can work as an okay screener... which would be great if anything set up, but nothing really does.

:rs/magby:
Magby is like a super crappy Charmeleon that outspeeds Arbok and that's pretty much where its value starts and ends. Thunder Punch would be cool but you need HP Grass for Marshtomp anyway so it's super whatever.

:rs/volbeat:
Volbeat is basically the same thing as Ledian but it can at least pretend to be useful thanks to a recovery move letting it Baton Pass a bit more reliably into offensive guys, but it doesn't have useful resistances for this to be a valuable job. Used to be a nice Tail Glow passer but oh well.

~~
These guys weren't on the VRMaker I used but they're worth noting so I'm just gonna talk about them real quick, they aren't very good though.
~~

:rs/quilava:
Quilava is a crappy Charmeleon that lets you use a second Charmeleon. Can be an acceptable SubTox user since it threatens Duskull p hard and this helps with dealing with Magcargo, but it's owned by SpDef Swalot and Dragonair.

:rs/parasect:
Parasect has great stats, SD Spore is cool, and Fire is uncommon enough outside of the STAB users that this is a decent threat. Really not great but acceptable. Shame it can't use Grass STAB well so Marshtomp can just stay in and Toxic it.

:rs/aipom:
I think I'd rather use Aipom than Doduo for the "second Furret" role, though it really doesn't have much going for it. Beat Up would be cool if anything in this tier had an Attack stat.

:rs/shedinja:
Shedinja is very annoying to switch into and low Spikes usage opens up a niche for it. Great on stall.

:rs/anorith:
Anorith is a good CB Rock Slide user thanks to great Speed and acceptable power. Tough to pick between HP Bug and HP Ground.

:rs/cubone:
I'll admit I haven't used Cubone but it is theoretically a great Paralysis abuser with absurd power letting it get KOs Graveler misses.

:rs/tentacool:
Tentacool is a Toxic-immune Spinner which is useful for Stall but Spikes are essentially out of the meta rn so it's kinda whatever. Also a decent Fire check.

~~

The meta is in a fantastic state right now and I'm excited to continue playing it in other tournaments. I hope all the newcomers to the tier are enjoying it and I hope this is a nice read regardless of whether or not you actually play ADV PU. ^^

SergioRules · Jul 22, 2024

Hello all, time for a long overdue VR update. Originally, I was going to wait until the end of PUPL but with recent events and the upcoming ADV ZU money tour coming up, it was time for some changes! I'll post the new VR followed by reasonings maybe even some personal thoughts if they're warranted, not everything is super massive but there are a few I'll definitely touch on.

:Minun: S -> S+: If you've seen ADV PU, you know that Minun is almost mandatory on a team. There are very few teams that would not benefit from having a Minun and I'd say 90% of those are stall teams, and even then, several stall teams can still utilize Minun for the sheer amount of support it can bring.
:sealeo::marshtomp: A+ -> S: In thinking of this VR on my own, I heavily considered not putting Marshtomp in the S-rank. So many things like Swalot, Seviper, and the Fires like Charmeleon and Combusken run HP Grass as coverage and it's even taken over as the primary HP choice for Minun. I've seen HP Grass on Togetic, Dragonair and even Marshtomp's neighbor Sealeo. It wasn't until I thought deeper about it that I realized those Pokemon run HP Grass almost exclusively to hit Marshtomp. A Pokemon that so heavily dictates what coverage Pokemon have to run just so they can damage it deserves an S-rank. Sealeo is a consistently good Water-type that really enjoys its STAB Ice Beam having so few sturdy resists in the tier. In fact, the best thing to check a Sealeo (other than outspeeding and KOing with Minun) is your own Sealeo.
:duskull: A -> A+: One of the best physical walls in the tier, similar to Marshtomp in that it can dictate coverage options (ie. Vibrava and Arbok's HP Ghost). Makes it very hard for Choice Band users like Arbok, Furret, and Trapinch to lock themselves into moves.
:togetic::dragonair: A- -> A+: Consistent mons that have seen a lot of usage and great results in PUPL so far. Togetic offers a lot of support options and has decent bulk. Dragonair has a ton of versatility and takes advantage of Minun since most lack the coverage for it nowadays.
:charmeleon::trapinch: A- -> A
:kingler: B+ -> A
:magcargo: B -> A-
:graveler: B- -> A-: Quite a big jump for this mon, but it seems the potency of STAB QuakeSlide coverage+Boom has finally caught on.
:wigglytuff: B -> B+
:lairon: B- -> B: Lairon feels like one of the classic ADV PU mons from way back when I first started getting into the tier. It fell off quite a bit due to Marshtomp being so good but with and influx of Poisons and an unresisted STAB combo outside of Marshtomp and Mawile, this can take advantage of more passive mons and get off some big damage in the process.
:shedinja::pineco: UR -> B: These are some more recent developments but with the decline of Omanyte, Shedinja gets much better, as it has one less thing to worry about in many situations. It also can kind of blank a good portion of the meta like Minun, non-Rock Slide Marshtomp, Sealeo, Dragonair, and Togetic to name a few. Throw on a Lum Berry to scout for random Toxic and you're set. Pineco on the other hand likes the decline of Omanyte because it has a better opportunity to show off its own Spiking ability. Pineco has had a few uses in PUPL already and from what I can tell has three things going for it over Omanyte. 1) The obvious Rapid Spin, 2) not dying immediately to Minun, and 3) lacking a 4x weakness to Grass. Remember how I talked about HP Grass being everywhere thanks to Marshtomp? Pineco is starting to rise up as a formidable choice as a Spiker.
:clamperl: C -> B-
:corsola: UR -> B-
:seaking::parasect: UR -> C

:omanyte: A+ -> B+: How the mighty have fallen. Once one of the most common Pokemon in the tier, now reduced to a shadow. Mainly due to Minun running the tier and the aforementioned HP Grass dominance, Omanyte just doesn't get the opportunities to Spike like it used to. It's still a great mon and deserving of B+ but is not nearly as good as it used to be.
:lickitung: A -> A-
:ivysaur: A- -> B+
:grovyle::vibrava: A- -> B: I'm a big Vibrava believer. Something about clicking CB EQ with it gives me a serotonin rush. But with Duskull being the premier physical wall and Vibrava's only way of hurting it being a weak and exploitable HP Ghost or a Toxic that it'll just Rest off eventually, it's really hurting. Vib's main competition in Ground-types are its younger sibling Trapinch which is carried by its ability, and Graveler which threatens the Ground immunities/resists with its strong secondary STAB. Vibrava has neither of those things and is a little left in the dust.
:gastly: B+ -> B
:abra::tropius::shelgon: B+ -> B-: All three of these Pokemon were part of the big drop of mons we got from NU in late 2022. Unfortunately, they couldn't really find a foothold in the current meta. Abra is probably the best of the three, and really suffers from "special-attacker-who-is-slower-than-Minun" syndrome while also having the bulk of a dried up leaf in autumn. Shelgon has some competition with Dragonair whose better Speed makes it a more attractive DD user, though Shelgon's bulk has allowed it to fit on some bulkier teams. Finally, Tropius is a mon that I've always wanted to make work but is just unfortunately outclassed defensively by Tangela and offensively by Ivysaur on the physical side and also Tangela as a Sunny Day sweeper.
:mightyena::chinchou: B -> B-: Mightyena used to be a premier support Pokemon with Heal Bell and Intimidate support. However, it's been slowly getting power crept out of the meta and now will finally fall to ZU where it can hopefully live out its days happily. I, for one, will never forget the memories we've shared since early days of ADV PU. Chinchou is a mon that kind of just exists to counter Minun, and it honestly doesn't do much else. It is a really good Minun counter though which is the only reason it's not falling to UR.
:yanma: B -> C: Another Pokemon with a lit of memories for OG ADV PUers. When the only form of priority was Furret's Quick Attack, all you had to do was take it out, then Sub down to 1 HP to activate your Liechi Berry and throw off 200 BP Reversals. Unfortunately, we've gained some Intimidate users since then, and Duskull has become really good, and while we didn't gain any new priority, this mon just can't cut it anymore.
:dustox::beedrill::volbeat::quilava: B- -> C
:elekid::doduo: B- -> UR: Some stragglers that somehow held on to a rank after the last VR update. Elekid might have the niche of not having to choose between Ice and Grass coverage unlike Minun, but lacks too much bulk to even be considered competition. Doduo just can't hold a flame to Furret as a Normal-type, and really dislikes the influx of things like Duskull, Mawile, and Magcargo.
:bayleef::noctowl::ariados::magby::anorith: C -> UR: Some more stragglers of the lower ranks. Of these I'd say Anorith is the only one I'm a little sad to see go as it used to be the best and really only viable Rapid Spin user. The rest of these are either outclassed or if they do have a niche, it's not notable enough to be worth using.

Again, there are a lot of changes here. I'd love to know what the community thinks and if you'd change anything.
Also be sure to check out ADV ZU's money tournament, there's a big prize pool and we love supporting old gens lower tiers here!

Anyway, thanks for reading! Expect another announcement about the future of ADV PU after the end of PUPL.

Gen 3 ADV PU

Aurist

Aurist

SergioRules

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Deezcastforms

sugar ovens

spiders, snakes and little mice

SergioRules

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Slowbroth

silence between the notes

SergioRules

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SergioRules

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BP

morbidly a beast

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar

Kahila911

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar

Kahila911

wooper

wooper graphic ultra modern girl

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar

Kahila911

SergioRules

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Kahila911

Kahila911

Aurist

Monai

Kahila911

Lily

Banned deucer.

SergioRules

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