Quick question about Dugtrio on more defensive teams: what is it usually used to target on those teams? I get how to use it on ZapDug offense (remove special walls so Zapdos/Starmie can clean up), but if I'm trying a defensive TSS type team with Dug on it (i.e. several sample teams, like this), what types of mons does it typically try to eliminate on those teams?
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- Thread starter vapicuno
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It's very good at handling fighters, it also can deal with jirachi or celebi if they have set up on you. Metagross, starmie and blissey are also common targets. It's very good at coming in and revenge killing to stop momentum, you can also use it predictively for kills potentially.
There are also teams built around trapping ttar and then getting rid of sand with a weather move. Which gives a lot more longevity to defensive pieces. If you have seen lead dug that is usually its purpose. Then it has EVs to live one eq.
Dug on defensive teams is typically focused on removing things that can break your defensive core. There are a limited number of mons that can break a say, Milo + Bliss + Skarm team and many of them are trappable by dug such as tar, meta, cmers (rachi/celebi/raikou). It's worth noting however, that unlike special offense teams, this dug is not EV'd to live Blissey Ice Beam and should therefore only be used to revenge a low blissey or one that has revealed no Ice Beam. It also provides these low speed stat teams with a form of speed control (only outsped by Aero/Jolt).
The other thing to consider about Dug + defense is that opponents typically try to punish dug entries by getting a threat in afterward (e.g. ddmence, subzard, subzap, etc). On dug offenses this can pose a big risk due to the lack of defensive backbone. On dug stall, you can usually neutralize the tempo loss from trapping something with dug by just bringing in Milo or Blissey. So in many respects Dug makes typical stall cores better, and typical stall cores make Dug better. Hence why they so often go together.
**not a pro so take everything I write with a grain of salt**
In theory forretress has two very desirable traits, one being that it gets spikes and spin in one slot, and while weak to spikes itself, its reasonably bulky and sand immune. The other is that it has potential to beat skarm 1v1; e.g. on protox skarm you can always come and spin for free. You can even run stuff like counter/zap cannon for drill peck skarm.
The potential issue is that (1) it needs a lot of support and (2) in practice it can be hard to execute the plan. Meaning, you can never go anywhere vs gengar so you need suittar, it also really wants wish support, and also, its just very passive overall and telegraphs your structure to your opponent most of the time. I'm saying one needs to play very precisely with forretress (***) for it to work. You often end up on the backfoot a lot. Due to its shortcomings people sometimes tag it as a "high skill" or "pro" pokemon, meaning you may want to wait to use it until you know the ins and outs of the game first. My opinion there is to just use whatever you want and just play 100's of games with that team until you learn all the optimal lines in detail.
Ugh there is a great post by possibly the best ADV player ever (McMeghan) on forretress and why you shouldnt let it get low which often means you often only click spike with it once: I can't find the link it somewhere in the old metagame discussion or VR thread. Try to find it...
UPDATE: Found it: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-metagame-discussion.3687814/page-2#post-9235472. This surely has what you're looking for :D
(***) footnote: on the usual structures. But pros have been experimenting with newer forre structures that might be better, see ABR's VR post maybe.
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I'm confused about baton pass. I understand the value of baton pass when a pokemon has something to pass like a stat boost, but I see baton pass on a lot of teams when there isn't anything to pass.
What makes this worth a move slot when you could just switch? I can't think of any difference except avoiding pursuit but that still doesn't seem worth it to me. What am I missing?
What makes this worth a move slot when you could just switch? I can't think of any difference except avoiding pursuit but that still doesn't seem worth it to me. What am I missing?
The opponent's switch happens before you use Baton Pass, so you get to see what pokemon they're switching to before you decide what you're passing to. Even if they don't switch on the turn you use Baton Pass, if you are faster, you now have the knowledge that they are staying in and you can respond in kind. It's a potentially very powerful way to preserve momentum, especially if you have trappers like Dugtrio or Magneton on your team you can risklessly pass to them then trap and pick off an opposing pokemon. Even without trappers, that aforementioned momentum preservation is huge.
What Kollin mentioned is the main point, but you also have the benefit of scouting for focus punch from ttar/snorlax.
What does an actual stall team look like in ADV? Is a defensive TSS team stall, or are stall teams even more passive than that, and focus on pp stalling without using sand and spikes?
Try looking at superman stuff, those are typically trying to avoid the meta of passive damage as much as possible alongside having recovery.
There's nothing as crazy as modern stall with regen pivot or magic guard/boots. Don't think PP stalling is really a reliable wincon outside of stall v stall matchups here due to crits likely to screw you before the pp stall is done. (Crits do 2x not 1.5x and are 1/16 not 1/24 like in later gens)
Generally speaking, MiloDol TSS is the most common extreme stall team. Some interations of this team-style avoid setting sandstorm (and sometimes even have tools to clear the opponent's) to further enhance the logevity of its defensive pieces. Winning by PP stalling the entire team isn't a thing, however you can win some interactions by taking into account PP values. (Example: Defensive Suicune can win one-on-one against Utility Blissey because it can stall it out of Seismic Toss PP. Refresh Claydol vs. Toxic Skarmory without Drill Peck is a similar deal, but watch out for Roar and ghost types.)
from my knowledge it can range from a v5 team to something like superman with misdreavus. v5 teams are stupid fat and can generally dumpster some teams with milo, dugtrio trapping limiting some pokemon to 1 kill at best or 0 with good reads, and just being super annoying to deal with
Superman stall teams just lay u down with spikes, keep them up with missy, and run over u that way
I just wanted to know what does missy means? I saw a missy term in a recent Viablity ranking and this is the second one the term was used again.
I dont know if it refers to the miss chance or a specific pokemon.
Thank you for the clarification in advance...
In gen 3 it refers to Misdreavus the pokemon. (In gen 4 onwards its likelier to be talking about mismagius the gen 4 evo)
You're allowed only 1 way to boost your stats (through a move/berry/ability) + BP per team and you're not allowed to have a permanent trapping move + BP. Other clauses that are tangentially related to Baton Pass is the ban of the move Assist, the combination of Smeargle + Ingrain and Soundproof.
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1) One Boost Passer Clause
2) Soundproof
3) Baton Pass + Mean Look
4) Baton Pass + Spider Web
5) Baton Pass + Block
6) Smeargle + Ingrain
More info if you want to dig deeper and read different perspectives: ADV Speed Pass Policy Review Thread.
A couple of noob questions regarding spinners.
1. Why isn't HP Ghost used on Forretress at all?
It seems like Forretress typically draws in either spin blockers to block him from rapid spinning, or Starmie to spin away his spikes. And he has a fairly respectable 90 attack to hit Ghosts or Starmie hard on the switch. I've been liking it in my low rank games, would be nice to hear from better players why it might not be as good as it seems to me.
2. How to use Claydol against Skarmory?
Using either Forretress or Recover Starmie as a spinner against opposing Skarmory feels very simple to me. Forretress is immune to Skarmory's toxic, barely takes any damage from drill peck. Starmie can switch out the Toxic's with Natural Cure and recover any Drill Peck damage. But I don't understand what to do as Claydol.
If I switch in Claydol against a Skarmory, and even if I run Refresh for his Toxic, the Drill Peck still destroys Claydol. When running Claydol, am I supposed to just hope really hard that they don't have a Drill Peck Skarmory and accept the loss if they do? Or let Skarmory put 3 layers of Spikes and only try to clear them with Claydol sometime later in the game?
1. Why isn't HP Ghost used on Forretress at all?
It seems like Forretress typically draws in either spin blockers to block him from rapid spinning, or Starmie to spin away his spikes. And he has a fairly respectable 90 attack to hit Ghosts or Starmie hard on the switch. I've been liking it in my low rank games, would be nice to hear from better players why it might not be as good as it seems to me.
2. How to use Claydol against Skarmory?
Using either Forretress or Recover Starmie as a spinner against opposing Skarmory feels very simple to me. Forretress is immune to Skarmory's toxic, barely takes any damage from drill peck. Starmie can switch out the Toxic's with Natural Cure and recover any Drill Peck damage. But I don't understand what to do as Claydol.
If I switch in Claydol against a Skarmory, and even if I run Refresh for his Toxic, the Drill Peck still destroys Claydol. When running Claydol, am I supposed to just hope really hard that they don't have a Drill Peck Skarmory and accept the loss if they do? Or let Skarmory put 3 layers of Spikes and only try to clear them with Claydol sometime later in the game?
1. It is used sometimes and I think some actually prefer it. Seems viable to me
2. Claydol is generally bad vs skarm, your best bets are refresh dol for tox skarm, or perhaps fire dol. But drill peck is gonna beat dol. and most skarms now have drill peck.
You don’t have to accept loss you just need other means of wearing skarm down because dol cannot do that at all. Yeah, just use claydol a couple times throughout the game don’t send it on skarm expecting to beat it. Beat skarm down through other means.
This line of thinking is generally why skarm is king.
1. HP Ghost is sometimes seen on Forre. About 10% of the time according to the usage stats. The main drawback is that Forre has some major 4 move slot syndrome as well as 1 hidden power syndrome. HP Bug having stab allows it to more confidently duel defensive starmie and claydol, while moves like Earthquake/Counter allow it to kill a magneton trying to trap it, and explosion is one of the best moves in the game. Moreover, Forre is often paired with pursuit tar so hitting Gengar is not always the top priority for these teams. That all said, HP Ghost is a viable and good option especially on teams without pursuit or with severe gengar weakness aside from suittar.
2. Most of the time, Claydol should not switch in vs. Skarmory. The exceptions being if you are the rare HP Fire claydol or if you are refresh claydol facing a toxic tect skarm (in which case you can stay in forever and pp stall it if needed). Otherwise, as you've noticed, Claydol will lose the duel and eventually get forced out under worse circumstances. Claydol, being a spinner that does not takes spikes or sand damage itself and can at least somewhat hold its own against gengar, is more willing than most other spinners to just allow 3 spikes up and come in later to spin them away. Typically that's the route you should go. Either go to your own skarm and trade spikes or go to something that can damage skarm heavily to punish the spikes, and then spin later.