OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

So a few weeks ago, I made the bold claim that if Gallade was in RBY - even if it was a Gallade with only 65 special and no EQ or Rock Slide coverage - it would still be a more viable psychic type in OU than Mr. Mime. But after I said that, I got to thinking - is that, like, true?

I can't find any information at all about Mr. Mime in OU. On the one hand, I completely understand why no one's chomping at the bit to cover Mr. Mime, but on the other hand, thanks to Ortheore, I literally have more resources on hand regarding Kadabra's utility in OU than I do Mr. Mime's. I found Ortheore's extended viability rankings earlier in the thread and saw Mr. Mime placed in E6, but no words on why it's there.

So if you were somehow forced to use Mr. Mime on the RBY OU ladder, what would you do with it?
 
XionGaTaosenai said:
So a few weeks ago, I made the bold claim that if Gallade was in RBY - even if it was a Gallade with only 65 special and no EQ or Rock Slide coverage - it would still be a more viable psychic type in OU than Mr. Mime. But after I said that, I got to thinking - is that, like, true?

I can't find any information at all about Mr. Mime in OU. On the one hand, I completely understand why no one's chomping at the bit to cover Mr. Mime, but on the other hand, thanks to Ortheore, I literally have more resources on hand regarding Kadabra's utility in OU than I do Mr. Mime's. I found Ortheore's extended viability rankings earlier in the thread and saw Mr. Mime placed in E6, but no words on why it's there.

So if you were somehow forced to use Mr. Mime on the RBY OU ladder, what would you do with it?
Click to expand...

Psychic, Tbolt, Counter, Submission.

Psychic is STAB.
Tbolt is the ONLY thing that Mime has over Zam.
Counter because its frail as fuck and opposing Normal guys sometimes will use Normal moves. Also, if someone explodes and kills some of your other Mon, you send Mime and they send a Poison type, you predict switch and Counter previous Explosion.
Submission because otherwise you have almost 0 chance to kill Chansey. Zam (who has more Attack btw, lol) doesnt need it because he has 32 PP Recover and in long games will end up winning vs Chansey with the drops, Mime doesnt have that luxury. An underrated advantage of Submission is that if you kill yourself with it, even if Chansey stays alive, it wont be able to heal that turn.

Stoss and Twave are other options, but then you are just much better using Zam.

The only good thing I can say about Mr. Mime, is that unlike many other los tier Mons it at least isnt walled by Gengar, the fun killer. Otherwise, its a terrible Mon, worse than Kadabra and almost worse than Abra, lol.
 
Yeah I didn't give a reason for where I ranked Mime bc I haven't tested it at all, and I'd be pretty open to moving it if anyone wanted to argue.

Mime's probably not terrible to use, given that it's mostly a watered down Zam without Recover. It's just that justifying its use is really fkn difficult when there are so many better psychic types. I think Eeveeto's comment that Kadabra is better than it is probably accurate tbh

I haven't seriously tried finding a niche for Mime yet, but it probably follows similar logic to Kadabra in that you're stacking it w Zam, Tbolt isn't enough to distinguish it otherwise. However, beyond that I suspect it plays completely differently. Mime's lack of recovery makes it less useful early game, whereas its better physical bulk when compared to Kadabra means that at least it isn't OHKO'd by Taur, so it's likely geared more towards lategame. That said, this is still fairly superficial theorymon
 
Literally the only thing Mime has going for it is Thunderbolt to hit Starmie, Cloyster and Slowbro, threatening a 3HKO / 2HKO / 3HKO respectively. It is not "almost worse than Abra", Mr. Mime has superior bulk + Thunderbolt with Abra's only advantage being 5 more Special. It's basically an upgraded Abra, which of course means it's nowhere near good enough in OU. Kadabra alone is certainly superior to it, and Hypno is right there if you want a non-OU slow recoverless Psychic-type. Even if Mr. Mime had over 300 HP and Recover, it would be hard to justify it over Starmie is another Psychic-type with Thunderbolt that has superior speed, bulk and movepool. Even the lack of Electric weakness isn't very meaningful when it still loses to Zapdos easily in a 1v1. Perhaps if its type was Psychic/Electric, then its Thunderbolt would be something worthwhile and would stand out as a Psychic-type that isn't Zapdos-weak.

Edit: I think if there were a niche for Mr. Mime, it'd be used alongside TBolt Starmie as a Mie/Cloy/Bro + Don counter team. While Mr. Mime is bad in a vacuum, I can imagine end game scenarios where the combined threat of Psychic + Thunderbolt + Thunder Wave could be tricky for those teams to navigate, and could let you play more aggressively with Starmie earlier on. I think for this purpose the ideal set would have Barrier as 4th move, as that changes the Rhydon matchup in a way that makes Mr. Mime favored in a 1v1 instead of losing it (also handy for gaining speed advantage in a paralyzed Mr. Mime vs. paralyzed Starmie situation):
Mr. Mime Psychic vs. Rhydon: 154-181 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Mr. Mime: 169-199 (59.7 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. +2 Mr. Mime: 85-100 (30 - 35.3%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO

Victreebel and Venusaur serve a similar purpose and should do it better most of the time, but STAB Psychic and the lack of Ice/Psychic/Flying weaknesses can help in certain situations, such as against Gengar and unparalyzed Zam/Mie. Mime is also problematic for wrappers, STAB Psychic + Thunder Wave + >80 Speed is always a problem for them.
 
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I've had success against many good players with a variation of the 4-starters team (Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, Raichu, Lapras, and Chansey), which very much surprised me. The issue, of course, is that this team, as it stands, could never obtain an impressive gxe. I was wondering if any professional shitty team users here could recommend any changes to boost the consistency. The fact that I can perform well with this team suggests to me that there is potential here.
 
Here are some replays of me using the four starters team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2249262332-ty2xjwxgxyjnaff29hb27mq8mp51fpbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2248345351-cbjkquczqw4ji81poazu2pe5ft9k90cpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2247329240-8jzkpdsyb198xcgqyfh9yfydl9gbvghpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2130590451

Beelzemon 2003 (my favorite pokemon player) is also a fan of the 4 starters team. Here he is using it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-669283209?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1136379254
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1132285414

The four starters team is the poster boy of jank. It is what jank is all about, and one would expect that it just wouldn't work. That it just couldn't work. That it just SHOULDN'T work. Yet... this thing can obviously be pretty scary. I feel that we, as the jank community, should collectively band together to once and for all figure out what in the world are the optimal pokemon for the remaing two slots. Like, mathetmatically accurate and objectively optimal. Beelze uses Zam and Chansey. I use Lapras and Chansey. But I feel we haven't made the best version of this team yet.
 
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