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OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

“Should RBY Jynx be placed on Fraud Watch!?”

:rb/jynx:

Well… maybe. But probably not. It’s hard to say, really. Lately I’ve been finding myself thinking a lot more about this Pokémon as I’ve been getting back into RBY OU as a more casual player, and in contrast to my enthusiasm for the Cloyster + Starmie combination, I’m not putting RBY Jynx on Fraud Watch just yet but I genuinely struggle to see how it’s a Top 10 caliber pick in this metagame, at least from my battles.

I want to make something clear- I’m not necessarily saying Jynx’s VR placement should drop whenever the next update happens in 2026. What I am saying is that Jynx is a Pokémon whose appeal I feel like comes from its role compression rather than being the best at any one specific thing. Role compression is far from a bad thing, but it faces competition as a fast Psychic-Type, competition as a sleep user, competition as an Ice resist, and to some extent, as a win condition. In any of those specific roles I believe there to be better individual Pokémon, and that’s not considering any of Jynx’s other issues too. Unlike some of the Pokémon it’s competing for a team slot with, paralyzing this thing can absolutely ruin it with little upside for the Jynx user, and with how literally free (no, like, literally free, RBY has no switch punishing mechanics) it is to switch and pivot in RBY, I have often myself in situations where I want to make progress with Jynx and I just… can’t. As good as Ice and Psychic are in Gen 1, that typing is also a huge red flag for me, more specifically Jynx’s over-reliance on STAB usage for offense when those moves have lower PP than other offensive tools and can run into a wall against something like Chansey or other Psychic-Types. I’m genuinely asking, what is Jynx supposed to do then? Substitute doesn’t block status. Thief isn’t an option like it is for GSC Jynx. Switching out at a bad time can give your opponent more momentum than you’d like for them to get, and this is all assuming Jynx isn’t statused, in which case Lord help you as Jynx becomes complete bait for at least half of the metagame.

Jynx’s talents it does have and the success Lead Jynx can see on team compositions that appreciate that role compression the most in place of more dedicated options is enough for me to not want to say Jynx should be dropped in the VR, ultimately, but at least in my “filthy casual” experience, aside from actually learning RBY’s Types and mechanics as a newer player, I struggle to want to team build with this Pokémon since, in a generation with limited options, I’m almost always going to gravitate towards options that outclass Jynx in dedicated roles while still offering their own utility- just for one example, I’m taking Gengar’s less accurate sleep and different typing over Jynx’s such traits every single time in favor of the higher Speed, the Normal immunity and access to Explosion. As an Ice resist? Give me Starmie even on teams where Jynx could fit outside of the lead slot thanks to its better typing, better stats, Thunder Wave, type coverage, and access to Recover meaning a paralyzed Starmie can still use Ice-Type moves as a point of entry where Jynx only has Rest.
 
Utter Yap (Air maybe?)
What jynx does is be the 2nd fastest sleeper in the game, more consistent than the first, and doesnt lose to 2 of the most common leads, while the first does. It is unmatched when it comes to being a Sleep Lead. You also want your jynx to get slept so facing gengar isnt that big of a deal. Also you ever hear of a Jynx Special? Its when jynx lands sleep and then freezes the incoming chansey. Tell me another lead who can do that, i'll wait.

Also i dont get why you would complain abt jynx if you admit its a good slot for its roles and good role compression. Would that not just make it a good pokemon.
 
What jynx does is be the 2nd fastest sleeper in the game, more consistent than the first, and doesnt lose to 2 of the most common leads, while the first does. It is unmatched when it comes to being a Sleep Lead. You also want your jynx to get slept so facing gengar isnt that big of a deal. Also you ever hear of a Jynx Special? Its when jynx lands sleep and then freezes the incoming chansey. Tell me another lead who can do that, i'll wait.

Also i dont get why you would complain abt jynx if you admit its a good slot for its roles and good role compression. Would that not just make it a good pokemon.
If Jynx achieves sleep, and + 3-4 blizzards it's "role compression" was achieved and it will at least provide that because it's taking up a slot, that at least it's taking a slot from its opp too with sleep +36% freeze.
Its the easiest mon to play, because if you can arbitrarily decide what sleep and freeze are each worth relative to a KO, than you can decide if Jynx is worth it or not.
 
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What jynx does is be the 2nd fastest sleeper in the game, more consistent than the first, and doesnt lose to 2 of the most common leads, while the first does. It is unmatched when it comes to being a Sleep Lead. You also want your jynx to get slept so facing gengar isnt that big of a deal. Also you ever hear of a Jynx Special? Its when jynx lands sleep and then freezes the incoming chansey. Tell me another lead who can do that, i'll wait.

Also i dont get why you would complain abt jynx if you admit its a good slot for its roles and good role compression. Would that not just make it a good pokemon.
In my defense I did also admit I’m a filthy casual. The Jynx Special sounds like fun, though, haven’t heard of that sequence. I think I was subconsciously under the impression Jynx would rather put Chansey to sleep than freeze it, but yeah that makes more sense. I do have my concerns about Jynx itself being outsped by other leads and when the RNG on Turn 1 doesn’t play out in Jynx’s favor but that’s just it- when things don’t work out.

If Jynx achieves sleep, and + 3-4 blizzards it's "role compression" was achieved and it will at least provide that because it's taking up a slot, that at least it's taking a slot from its opp too with sleep +36% freeze.
Its the easiest mon to play, because if you can arbitrarily decide what sleep and freeze are each worth relative to a KO, than you can decide if Jynx is worth it or not.
Actually, I will give Jynx this, now that I think about it. Jynx might be the best Ice attacker (notice how I didn’t say Ice-Type, there’s only five in whole game lol) against opposing Ice resists, since none of them really want to take one of either STAB Psychic or Lovely Kiss. It definitely feels easier to play because even though a poorly played Jynx can feel like dead weight sometimes, Jynx can still attempt to use the threat of sleep to force switches to increase the likelihood of scoring a freeze on a key target. A paralyzed Jynx still has over 50% odds of landing Lovely Kiss with accuracy compensated, I believe (is it 25% or 50% for full paralysis in RBY?) meaning Jynx still has good odds of making progress regardless of an Ice Beam or Blizzard is the right move to click.
 
Also what the fuck are garbage ass mathematical "proofs" about Jynx doing here? Pretty sure this thread was intended for discussion of jank strategies that aren't likely to be good enough to use in tournament. I'd rather this thread serve that purpose than act as garbage disposal for shitty ideas/posts that are clearly intended for other threads

Honestly if you're going to go to that much effort to make shitty mathematical "proofs" that don't make sense, use flawed methodology, are so riddled with arbitrarily assumed numbers that calling them proofs is laughable, ignore a lot of nuance and complexity in gameplay and just generally don't hold up, just make a new thread
 
Also what the fuck are garbage ass mathematical "proofs" about Jynx doing here? Pretty sure this thread was intended for discussion of jank strategies that aren't likely to be good enough to use in tournament. I'd rather this thread serve that purpose than act as garbage disposal for shitty ideas/posts that are clearly intended for other threads

Honestly if you're going to go to that much effort to make shitty mathematical "proofs" that don't make sense, use flawed methodology, are so riddled with arbitrarily assumed numbers that calling them proofs is laughable, ignore a lot of nuance and complexity in gameplay and just generally don't hold up, just make a new thread
These were moved here because they were ruining the OU thread but on further consideration yeah we're just not doing this anymore, please no more walls of text about made up numbers to justify why everyone should only run the same one lead always or whatever Believer of GXE

No new threads about it either, we will not be approving new threads to dump a bunch of bad math
 
At least someone is out there trying to find the real stuff like concepts like what sleep is worth relative to a KO....that's probably worth looking into.
Yeah, and that someone is everybody but you, because your math is out of touch with reality. Please stop spamming all the RBY OU threads with nonsense or you’re going to get escalating infractions. From now on you stick to this thread and talk about whatever ladder stuff you want, but don’t post walls of bad and misleading math, and leave the VR and OU discussion (which is based around tournament play) threads alone.

If you want to say “on ladder most people use Psychic leads so i think Jynx is the best lead” go for it. If you want to argue that Golem is good on ladder because of high Zapdos/high Rhydon/opponents don’t understand how to play so the worse damage ranges aren’t that bad/boomspam is good on ladder, by all means, go for it. If you want to post walls of poorly-reasoned math or suggest that people should only ever lead jynx and every other lead is bad because of 1400 elo/1760 glicko ladder stats, delete your post before you send it. If you want to talk about tournaments/overall RBY meta, play in a tournament before you talk. Thank you
 
If you want to say “on ladder most people use Psychic leads so i think Jynx is the best lead” go for it. If you want to argue that Golem is good on ladder because of high Zapdos/high Rhydon/opponents don’t understand how to play so the worse damage ranges aren’t that bad/boomspam is good on ladder, by all means, go for it. If you want to post walls of poorly-reasoned math or suggest that people should only ever lead jynx and every other lead is bad because of 1400 elo/1760 glicko ladder stats, delete your post before you send it. If you want to talk about tournaments/overall RBY meta, play in a tournament before you talk. Thank you
I agree and would argue all of your points kind of, too. Jynx is the best lead, and golem is underappreciated.
 
Meditate Hitmonlee. I really like him. Someone on ladder surprised me with it and swept me. I was like, "HmmmMMMMmmmMMm, that looks fun." So, I've been using it and I really like it.
 
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For leading on the ladder:
With Jynx leading, Chansey as a secondary backup sleeper with sing to catch the opposing Starmie or Alakazam T-Waves is also a good play instead of just clicking LK vs these.
Clicking LK is probably worth like 70% of a KO
Clicking Chansey is hard to calculate the value of it, and likely isn't worth more than straight sleeping the opp with LK at first glance, but a paralyzed Chansey early on also means in some instances that you can block sleep on yourself entirely, as well as not be frozen.
An alt strategy for turn 0 instead of LK, or Chansey Swap, is to swap Jynx out turn 0 into Golem, and block the T wave, they then go for a range of swapping to their sleeper or attacking, if you then swap back to Jynx, Jynx is now in vs Exeggutor for turn 1 sometimes, or it takes para. Now Jynx can Blizzard here for a small advantage, before using LK.
Other turn 0 ideas: Lead with Jolteon, and opp will often go for the following range of moves turn 0: T-Wave, Swapping to Chansey, Swapping to Exeggutor, Swapping to Rhydon. Vs this range of moves, all you need is to swap to a back Jynx to win for turn 1.
Jynx is too good to pass up for the early game. I can't even see Starmie as palpable for the lead spot, Starmie might be better if sleep hasn't been dished out yet, but the early game still has something needing to deliver sleep, because starmie isn't better until that is resolved, which is why it should be in the back.
 
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Swords Dance, Sharpen, Meditate sweeper tier list.

B/C is the cutoff for guys i would bring to tournament. This is ranking their ability to swords dance sweep. It has nothing to do with their overall viability. At this role vic is outright outclassed by venu hence the significantly lower ranking.

Sandslash is undeniably the best at doing this. Twave immune is great. Venu is p damn good too with razor and powder.

Kabu is nice bc resists normals and can bop chansey with submission.

Kingler is nice. Krabhammer go brrr. Bulky and can ohko chansey. I like tang in this role. Not weak to psychic is great. Has dual powder. Kinda bulky. Can actually switch the fuck in on rhydon. Pinsir has bind and submission and hbeam and shit its great.

Rest isnt important but id like to talk abt specific guys. Zard is actually raw as hell in the lead slot. Would reccomend toying around with. Krabby and Sandshrew arent that bad paired with their bigger mons. They can do things. Farf is by far the worst no contest.
 
1. Sandslash.
2. Venusaur
3. Pinsir
4. Kabutops
5. Lickitung
6. Kingler
7. Victreebel
8. Tentacruel
9. Hitmonlee

Then the rest. There is a big gap between Sandslash and Venusaur. Smaller gap between Lickitung and Kingler. After Hitmonlee, everything else is very situational, at least in OU.
 
1. Sandslash.
2. Venusaur
3. Pinsir
4. Kabutops
5. Lickitung
6. Kingler
7. Victreebel
8. Tentacruel
9. Hitmonlee

Then the rest. There is a big gap between Sandslash and Venusaur. Smaller gap between Lickitung and Kingler. After Hitmonlee, everything else is very situational, at least in OU.
can you atleast explain SOME of this list lmao. Pinsir and lickitung are far too high id think.
 
I speak from my own experience. Pinsir has a very powerful Hyper Beam at +2, only really having Gengar as a roadblock (Rhydon can sometimes be beaten with Submission). It also has no weaknesses. Still needs support, but what booster doesn,t? None of these Mons is OU anyway.

As for Lickitung, well, I used it a lot on ladder and only 2 times in official RBY Tours. But those 2 times were these ones:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-791688 < RBY Cup Finals. Excal ended up winning the tour, but he had to prepare better for me in set 2.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2252984655-wgzgg2c9ehdjw6gduv0gbx7ravnqvlepw < RBY Championship.

After those 2 battles, you can understand that I trust Lickitung more than Tangela, Kingler or Charizard.
 
Although I've previously supported the idea that Venu is a better SDer in a vacuum than Bel, I think sometimes we take it too far lol and that the gap isn't as big as we tend to make it out to be. Sure SD isn't Bel's best set, but imo it can gain a lot of mileage out of the fact that most people expect Bel to be a Wrapper and status spreader.

The two sets kinda have opposite counterplay- vs Wrap you go to a paralysed mon to block status and bait out Wrap, then swap to something that threatens Bel. The part where you go to a paralysed mon is pretty bloody dangerous if Bel is SD though
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Also Beedrill is the worst fully evolved SDer in the game by a decent margin imo. Dies to everything, requires multiple boosts to be merely adequate, and has basically no good matchups aside from Grass/Poisons. Basically if it can't OHKO everything in front of it with HB it's screwed, but it's also really weak so that just doesn't make sense. I don't think it really has any tech options, and even if you try to wallbreak with DEdge rather than going for HB kills, it's gonna kill itself in a hurry

Farfetch'd may also suck, but I think it has better tech options- being able to set up on ReflectLax if timed right and Sand Attack to mitigate the impact of its hard counters. Because it uses Slash/BS rather than HB, it tends to be more of a wallbreaker that is a bit less inconsistent in making an impact than a HB sweeper that needs everything to align to fulfil its purpose. I find that a bit better, because at this power level, killing things is a struggle lol.

Not that it really matters though, both are trash lol
 
Not sure if hypno counts, but you included Hitmonlee which is meditate so I guess he does. I would rather use hypno with meditate than many of the boosting SDer's by quite a lot. like scyther, beedrill, lickitung, farfetched, even kabutops, or tentacruel. Hypno has more practical utility with t-wave and is useful outside of going for the SD KO, while retaining better typing and defensive utility than Venusaur/Victreebell usually.

...I doubt meditate is hypnos best set though.
 
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