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OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

It has a gigantic Jynx weakness, where if you miss hypnosis turn 0 (40%) and you swap Chansey and Jynx freezes you turn 1 (9%), which is like 5% of the time....it has nothing to swap into jynx's blizzard and has to check it by sacking instead of switching something in.
Here are my methods of answering Jynx outside of gambling Hypnosis.
- Trading with Jynx T1 with Explosion: Gengar Explosion vs. Jynx: 331-389 (99.3 - 116.8%) -- 94.9% chance to OHKO
^ Jynx Psychic vs. Gengar: 159-188 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO | Gengar is allowed one switch barring crits in a dire situation
- Stalling with Chansey & Cloyster: Blizzard has limited PP. Back Jynx might be a bit of a struggle but enough PP stalling should reduce the likelihood of Blizzard freezes and Cloyster takes between 33-40 for Psychic anyway, so it has a bit of a cushion in the event it pivots into the wrong move.
- Tauros, reliable revenge killer post-sleep, Earthquake is fine to bait Counter, otherwise Body Slam if Jynx is still around in the late-game
- Rhydon, OHKOs paralysed Jynx, see: Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Jynx: 343-404 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While Jynx might cause some minor issues, I do think something like Lapras may pose a strong threat against this team, which Thunderbolt Chansey helps navigate the matchup against Lapras. Otherwise, I do think it is a somewhat functional team against a lot of structures within the metagame based on my first experiences. Hope all is well with you
 
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Cloyster wins vs Tauros unless what? T bolt is like 10% so 90 to 10
Google Tauros critical hit rate, paraslam chance, Blizzard miss chance, etc. One crit from Slam-Slam-Beam = Tauros beats Cloyster 1v1
Cloyster wins vs Snorlax like idk isn't 70 to 30 more than fair? Considering even if it's behind.
In a vacuum, yes, now try switching into Lax, which is the main way Cloy gets in

Cloyster wins vs exeggutor...if it had to...this isn't usually how that goes down, but as long as something is asleep already, it's still 49% vs sleep powder even.
Again, have fun getting in vs it

Cloyster is questionable vs Chansey. It still has explosion
"Questionable" is a weird way to say "hit Clamp 5-8 times in a row or you get Twaved and instantly lose." Explosion = your Cloyster no longer beats all 4 of these mons like you're insisting it does

Still not addressing that Starmie exists either

But it still has explosion and that goes for all of those too...non of them like tanking explosion.
Okay, so does Gengar. Does Gengar beat all of these? Is Exploding on them for most of their HP a win? As I see it, trading your Cloyster for 80% of a Tauros or whatever isn't the same thing as winning the matchup

Your option is to say swapping exists, but if swapping exists for one it exists for two.
Yes you can go starmie, I can go Chansey too, that's not the point, the point is I condensed your 4 into my 1.
That doesn't mean I get the value of 4, I'm just saying if each mon is considered for the team, they should be able to get 1to1 or more of value. Cloyster if considering the range it will face on average should have anybody be able to use it and it would be good.
To determine the value of it, I can see it will on average have 0.25% chance or more vs each of the 4 of them. If they only use 3 of those? I need to cloyster to be able to win 33% vs each, which I still see feasible.
I know from usage stats i get to face those often. What should i want to face them with? I'm choosing Cloyster.
I'm saying cloyster captures a gigantic clump of things that it can do moderately okay against, maybe not thrilling great.
Okay, you know what other Pokemon have gigantic clumps of OU things they do moderately okay against? Every single Pokemon in OU, and lots that aren't. Lapras has a pretty good matchup into Tauros, Snorlax, Chansey, and Exeggutor, and certainly a better Starmie matchup than Cloyster does. Venusaur has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Victreebel has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Articuno has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Moltres has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Looking at it in a vacuum is just fundamentally misunderstanding the game and refusing to look at the flaws in your logic, such as, again, the fact that some teams simply do not have any mons that are bad into Cloyster or don't allow it entry points without it taking paraslam risks or 50 from Psychic
 
If I may a hypothetical to you though.
What VR ranking do you consider each of these? Rock, Paper, Scissors?
Let's say Two players are playing Rock, Paper, Scissors against each other on a online platform.
And you have to rate the viability ranking of each of them.
But you also know the usage rate data for the month is showing this:
Rock 39%
Paper 27%
Scissors 34%

That makes rock temporarily S-Tier, even if they are all the same tier otherwise. Yes or no?

Example:
Rock is S-Tier
Paper is B- Tier
Scissors is F-Tier
For the example VR list.


And this is what I'm trying to say happened to cloyster, that because people are essentially using rock 39% of the time, it then makes cloyster S-Tier because of why everyone is using this clump of things(Tauros,Snorlax,Chansey,Exeggutor) that cloyster plays well vs this. This is like having my opp use rock 39% so I turn have to use rock based off of why they also use paper lower than scissors. So I have to use cloyster to overcompensate for the clump of 4. because I see rock being used too much.

Here is my example again:
Rock 39%
Paper 27%
Scissors 34%

See how others using rock too much makes it mathematical that you have to also use rock too?
Its not that rock is intrinsically S-Tier it's that other people using exact things creates the viability ranking.

Edit: although in pokemon some things are intrinsically S-Tier because of like how Aces in poker are intrinsic to being the best. There are some mons that are intrinsic, like Mewtwo and Mew, but they were banned for being intrinsic to winning. Everything else is considered intrinsic to being balanced enough that each mon isn't intrinsic to winning. Therefore S-Tier is considered something less than what is considered to be intrinsic to winning otherwise it would be Uber, Uber as a tier ranking would be above S-Tier.

So my point being that if everything in the game is considered to being balanced enough that they aren't intrinsic to winning, why would Tauros find it's usage rate at what it is? Why would Snorlax find it's usage rate at what it is?
What about Chansey or exeggutor? They aren't intrinsic to winning so why play them 9 to 10 out of 10 times?
If everyone is...that makes the clump of 4 being either all or some of them are then Uber and they aren't being accurately classified as such or why have that clump being used at the usage rates they are? I think the game itself has so many things to expand to because of stuff like this.
Things that I think could happen?
Tauros is Uber? No.
Snorlax is Uber? No.
Chansey is Uber? Maybe.
Exeggutor is Uber? No.

Chansey has more characteristics to being similar to the Uber things than the others do.

But I'm getting off the original focal point that the main message is that if those 4 things are all used at rates above 70% than I'll net 2-3 or 4 of them often every single game, and I'll slowly bring cloyster to the victory that it deserves!!!!
All of this rests on the assumption that S-tier and Uber tier are as qualitatively distinct as you are saying in pokemon, which is just not the case. Tauros just is that good despite usage rates, for example. More importantly, rock paper scissor's wins and losses are decided in 1 v 1 head to heads. Paper vs rock, scissors vs paper, etc. That is NOT how pokemon matches are decided. They are team vs team in which sequence of moves A is pitted against sequence of moves B. And it is the sequences which determine the winner. Your whole conceptual framework is wrong from the very beginning.
 
Aren't there rock paper scissor games where you play a sequence of like 10 in a row vs your opps sequence of 10 in a row?
The atomic level of those rock paper scissors games consists of wins and losses determined by 1v1s. The atomic level of pokemon is sequence vs sequence, and that determines the winner. If pokemon was a game in which you and your opponent only brought one pokemon each, your argument would hold some weight, but that isn't how it works at all. Pokemon games, contrary to what you think, are not reducible to 1v1s. The pokemon must always be seen in the context of sequences, contingencies, and the history so far of the particular game that is being played, which determines and changes the optimal path forward (and of course the history of all the games that have been played so far contain lessons to be abstracted out for future strategizing.) So, it makes no sense whatsoever to frame the discussion as if pokemon is played 1v1.
 
Yes but the set of sequences in pokemon are comprised of many 1v1's, there is only 1 mon each for yourself and your opponent at a time. That's 1v1.
noooooooooooo. Look. Pretend we each only bring one pokemon to a match. You bring Jynx, and I bring Cloyster. Both standard sets. Who wins in a Jynx vs Cloyster mu? Jynx most of the time right? You win. If we play a hundred games, you will win every time. Okay, now lets say we play again but this time we both add a pokemon to our teams. The mu starts the same. Cloyster vs Jynx, but my second pokemon is starmie with surf and thunderbolt and your second pokemon is starmie with phsychic and blizzard. Now this is completely different. Now you know if you play like you were playing before, which was 1v1, you'll lose. Before you could just press psychic, but now you can't. Yet why not? Because I'm going to press explode and then I win because my starmie will beat your starmie. Now you have to press different moves or switch. Why? Because your choices are CONTINGENT on future circumstances. This right here is how the game is played. Obviously this is a very simplified version, for we play 6 vs 6 as opposed to 2 v 2. But hopefully this makes it a bit clearer. We do not play 1v1s. We do not. The logic behind our plays drastically changes when other pokemon are introduced.
 
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Yes but the set of sequences in pokemon are comprised of many 1v1's, there is only 1 mon each for yourself and your opponent at a time. That's 1v1.
There is quite literally a tier all around this dynamic called RBY 1v1, where almost every possible moveset choice matters in this vacuum. Elo Bandit and Murm have put out great resources for this tier and it was featured in the first ever RBYOMPL earlier this year. It's a great tier and it may be what you're looking for if this is how you view the game.

However, once you introduce 6v6 into RBY though(as RBY OU is played), it COMPLETELY changes the way we have to think about mons. It's no longer just about the 1 to 1 interactions but the various teams, switches and positioning both players can do to put themselves in the best spot to win. That's the point of what others are trying to say.
 
Recently reached 1500 elo with a team that doesn't use Snorlax, so I think I have a unique perspective on this.
(Proof: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1671958287)

S: :chansey::tauros:
A: :snorlax::exeggutor:
B: :alakazam::starmie:
C1: :rhydon::zapdos::jynx::cloyster:
C2::slowbro::gengar::jolteon:
D: :lapras::victreebel::moltres::articuno::persian: (unordered)

Chansey is the most indispensable of the "big 3," and in my view, at this stage in the meta, slightly edges out even Tauros. It's the only Pokémon in the game that is straight-up buffed by being paralyzed—that is to say, the benefits of getting your Chansey paralyzed utterly eclipse the downsides in a manner that may as well be referred to as a "buff," because that's essentially what it is. There's a reason many people will forfeit the moment their Chansey gets frozen; without Chansey in play, it becomes almost impossible to protect the rest of your team from status conditions in a meta where inflicting status serves as your primary win condition. I would liken losing your Chansey in RBY to hanging your queen in chess. It's a tremendous setback that is extremely difficult to come back from, and not having a Chansey on your team while your opponent has one is like being 75 meters behind in a 100 meter dash. It's that important. The choice to forgo Chansey on any serious team can only be described with one word—foolish.

Not much to say about Tauros—it's still indispensable, and the king to Chansey's queen, but its vulnerability to status conditions and inability to recover its health means that you REALLY have to pick your battles with it—a downside that Chansey lacks. Chansey can safely switch into every special attack in the game when paralyzed. Tauros cannot. That said, obviously, it's still the best kill switch in the game. I think people will always view Tauros as #1 because of its role as a sweeper—after all, Tauros is designed for scoring KOs, and Chansey isn't—but the thing is, Tauros needs a lot of support before it can get that late game sweep going in the first place, and Chansey is simply the best Pokémon at providing that support—and, therefore, the true MVP of the metagame.

Snorlax is overrated. As I mentioned above, the fact that I was able to reach 1500 elo without a Snorlax basically proves this in my eyes, especially when I didn't find the task particularly difficult. It goes without saying that Snorlax is strong, and can be a challenge to deal with—if you don't have one yourself, it's probably gonna take more than one of your Pokémon to deal with it (unless you run Porygon). However, Snorlax has a bevy of exploitable weaknesses that simply prevent it, in my eyes, from being the true undroppable S-tier Pokémon that everyone seems to think it is. For one thing, it gets outsped by Chansey and Rhydon. Any Snorlax that switches in on a healthy Chansey puts itself at risk of getting hit by all manner of status conditions. Since low speed means bad crit rate, Chansey is very likely able to take at least two hits before needing to switch out, which means that Snorlax has to dodge Sing three times in this scenario before its opponent pivots to another, more accurate sleeper. Snorlax is one of the worst Pokémon to have asleep or frozen. Rest is annoying to deal with, but the fixed two-turn wake up makes it extremely easy to exploit the wake up turn and simply put it back to sleep, or even just smack it with Alakazam Psychics until it dies in two or three hits (minding his high crit rate). Without Amnesia, it also struggles to deal with Porygon, which is just... kinda pathetic, really—and with Amnesia, you're running a suboptimal Snorlax that's even easier to exploit. Obviously, I'm not saying Snorlax is trash—I have it at the top of my A-tier, and it's still the third strongest Pokémon in the meta. But this notion that you can't make a good team without one is just utter nonsense. It is by far the least threatening of the big 3, and I think its popularity is more a measure of self-reinforcing groupthink than anything else. "It's true because the community says so," or "It's true because the numbers say so," rather than "It's true because you literally cannot win without Snorlax." This isn't GSC—you CAN go without Snorlax. It's just a very strong Pokémon that you probably should use. Nothing more.

Exeggutor is extremely annoying. Like, nothing kills it. Even moves that are supposed to kill it (Starmie's Blizzard) do a terrible job of killing it, and even then, it has such an easy time putting all its checks to sleep anyway. The only surefire way to KO an Exeggutor is to have it blow itself up—a scary prospect, which makes every encounter with this big dumb palm tree far more of a nail-biter than it ever feels like it needs to be. In my opinion, every team needs to pack a Rhydon, a Gengar, or both, simply because of this Pokémon alone. The only reason it's not higher than Snorlax is because when it blows up, at least it's gone for good.

Alakazam and Starmie are incredibly strong, but they're down here because they are absolutely terrible at fighting other special attackers, including themselves. An Alakazam cannot consistently close the deal on another Alakazam, which is a problem. Starmie has Thunderbolt to deal with members of its own species, I suppose, but Starmie's problem is having to run Thunderbolt in the first place when it would much rather be running STAB. Out of all Pokémon in the RBY meta, Starmie suffers the hardest from 4MSS, and it's a shame to see. I would also like Starmie more if it had a little bit more HP to supplement its decent physical bulk—but then, it would be even harder to two-shot it in the mirror match, I guess. Oh well.

Rhydon is good enough that I believe every team (at least of certain archetypes) needs to use it, but HAVING to use Rhydon also kinda sucks. Getting walled by Pokémon like Exeggutor and Cloyster blows, and moves like Rock Slide simply aren't strong enough (or accurate enough) to consistently deal with these threats. Plus, since Subsitute is garbage in this generation, it's liable to getting checked by all sleepers, as well, since they all outspeed him. Even Chansey can two-shot it with Ice Beam. Rhydon has a lot going against it, making him one of the harder meta Pokémon to use, but he's an absolute beast if you play him very intelligently.

Jynx is basically a less scary Exeggutor that gets STAB Blizzards and freeze immunity. Too bad it doesn't have the same bulk, and only runs three moves (nobody has ever seen Jynx use its fourth move. Ever). Cloyster gets the same Ice-type benefits, but of course trapping, while extremely annoying, is also super gimmicky and inconsistent.

Slowbro spends too many games dying before it can get all of its boosts up before it's able to wreak any real havoc, but it can be scary if you're not prepared for it, or if all of its checks are dead (which means you're in a pretty bad spot anyway). The problem is, even if its checks are crippled with status, they can still deal with Slowbro adequately.

Gengar would be C1-tier or higher if it had a better sleep move, or a slightly higher Attack stat, or wasn't weak to Psychic, or wasn't weak to Ground, or had ANY good STAB moves, or if Mega Drain had a higher base power, or if the most common leads in the game couldn't threaten to OHKO it, or if it wasn't speed tied with Tauros, or if it had any sort of consistency whatsoever. It really has everything going against it in this generation, doesn't it? The fact that it's usable in the meta at all is actually incredible. You could fix just ONE or TWO of those issues I mentioned, and Gengar would be an excellent Pokémon, all for the sheer utility of its Ghost typing alone—but to have all of those issues at once? It's just... a lot.

Jolteon gets to be in C because it's the fastest viable Pokémon, and it's capable of slapping Chansey around in a pinch. It has some respectable characteristics. I just don't care about Electric-types in this meta when you can just run Rhydon and shut them down completely. Zapdos gets to be much higher because it's much bulkier and Drill Peck is very strong, but it's underwhelming for the same reason. It's too bad moves like HP Ice and Roost didn't exist yet.
Update: No changes. Still the perfect VR after 3 years.
 
“Should RBY Jynx be placed on Fraud Watch!?”

:rb/jynx:

Well… maybe. But probably not. It’s hard to say, really. Lately I’ve been finding myself thinking a lot more about this Pokémon as I’ve been getting back into RBY OU as a more casual player, and in contrast to my enthusiasm for the Cloyster + Starmie combination, I’m not putting RBY Jynx on Fraud Watch just yet but I genuinely struggle to see how it’s a Top 10 caliber pick in this metagame, at least from my battles.

I want to make something clear- I’m not necessarily saying Jynx’s VR placement should drop whenever the next update happens in 2026. What I am saying is that Jynx is a Pokémon whose appeal I feel like comes from its role compression rather than being the best at any one specific thing. Role compression is far from a bad thing, but it faces competition as a fast Psychic-Type, competition as a sleep user, competition as an Ice resist, and to some extent, as a win condition. In any of those specific roles I believe there to be better individual Pokémon, and that’s not considering any of Jynx’s other issues too. Unlike some of the Pokémon it’s competing for a team slot with, paralyzing this thing can absolutely ruin it with little upside for the Jynx user, and with how literally free (no, like, literally free, RBY has no switch punishing mechanics) it is to switch and pivot in RBY, I have often myself in situations where I want to make progress with Jynx and I just… can’t. As good as Ice and Psychic are in Gen 1, that typing is also a huge red flag for me, more specifically Jynx’s over-reliance on STAB usage for offense when those moves have lower PP than other offensive tools and can run into a wall against something like Chansey or other Psychic-Types. I’m genuinely asking, what is Jynx supposed to do then? Substitute doesn’t block status. Thief isn’t an option like it is for GSC Jynx. Switching out at a bad time can give your opponent more momentum than you’d like for them to get, and this is all assuming Jynx isn’t statused, in which case Lord help you as Jynx becomes complete bait for at least half of the metagame.

Jynx’s talents it does have and the success Lead Jynx can see on team compositions that appreciate that role compression the most in place of more dedicated options is enough for me to not want to say Jynx should be dropped in the VR, ultimately, but at least in my “filthy casual” experience, aside from actually learning RBY’s Types and mechanics as a newer player, I struggle to want to team build with this Pokémon since, in a generation with limited options, I’m almost always going to gravitate towards options that outclass Jynx in dedicated roles while still offering their own utility- just for one example, I’m taking Gengar’s less accurate sleep and different typing over Jynx’s such traits every single time in favor of the higher Speed, the Normal immunity and access to Explosion. As an Ice resist? Give me Starmie even on teams where Jynx could fit outside of the lead slot thanks to its better typing, better stats, Thunder Wave, type coverage, and access to Recover meaning a paralyzed Starmie can still use Ice-Type moves as a point of entry where Jynx only has Rest.
 
Utter Yap (Air maybe?)
What jynx does is be the 2nd fastest sleeper in the game, more consistent than the first, and doesnt lose to 2 of the most common leads, while the first does. It is unmatched when it comes to being a Sleep Lead. You also want your jynx to get slept so facing gengar isnt that big of a deal. Also you ever hear of a Jynx Special? Its when jynx lands sleep and then freezes the incoming chansey. Tell me another lead who can do that, i'll wait.

Also i dont get why you would complain abt jynx if you admit its a good slot for its roles and good role compression. Would that not just make it a good pokemon.
 
What jynx does is be the 2nd fastest sleeper in the game, more consistent than the first, and doesnt lose to 2 of the most common leads, while the first does. It is unmatched when it comes to being a Sleep Lead. You also want your jynx to get slept so facing gengar isnt that big of a deal. Also you ever hear of a Jynx Special? Its when jynx lands sleep and then freezes the incoming chansey. Tell me another lead who can do that, i'll wait.

Also i dont get why you would complain abt jynx if you admit its a good slot for its roles and good role compression. Would that not just make it a good pokemon.
In my defense I did also admit I’m a filthy casual. The Jynx Special sounds like fun, though, haven’t heard of that sequence. I think I was subconsciously under the impression Jynx would rather put Chansey to sleep than freeze it, but yeah that makes more sense. I do have my concerns about Jynx itself being outsped by other leads and when the RNG on Turn 1 doesn’t play out in Jynx’s favor but that’s just it- when things don’t work out.

If Jynx achieves sleep, and + 3-4 blizzards it's "role compression" was achieved and it will at least provide that because it's taking up a slot, that at least it's taking a slot from its opp too with sleep +36% freeze.
Its the easiest mon to play, because if you can arbitrarily decide what sleep and freeze are each worth relative to a KO, than you can decide if Jynx is worth it or not.
Actually, I will give Jynx this, now that I think about it. Jynx might be the best Ice attacker (notice how I didn’t say Ice-Type, there’s only five in whole game lol) against opposing Ice resists, since none of them really want to take one of either STAB Psychic or Lovely Kiss. It definitely feels easier to play because even though a poorly played Jynx can feel like dead weight sometimes, Jynx can still attempt to use the threat of sleep to force switches to increase the likelihood of scoring a freeze on a key target. A paralyzed Jynx still has over 50% odds of landing Lovely Kiss with accuracy compensated, I believe (is it 25% or 50% for full paralysis in RBY?) meaning Jynx still has good odds of making progress regardless of an Ice Beam or Blizzard is the right move to click.
 
Also what the fuck are garbage ass mathematical "proofs" about Jynx doing here? Pretty sure this thread was intended for discussion of jank strategies that aren't likely to be good enough to use in tournament. I'd rather this thread serve that purpose than act as garbage disposal for shitty ideas/posts that are clearly intended for other threads

Honestly if you're going to go to that much effort to make shitty mathematical "proofs" that don't make sense, use flawed methodology, are so riddled with arbitrarily assumed numbers that calling them proofs is laughable, ignore a lot of nuance and complexity in gameplay and just generally don't hold up, just make a new thread
 
Also what the fuck are garbage ass mathematical "proofs" about Jynx doing here? Pretty sure this thread was intended for discussion of jank strategies that aren't likely to be good enough to use in tournament. I'd rather this thread serve that purpose than act as garbage disposal for shitty ideas/posts that are clearly intended for other threads

Honestly if you're going to go to that much effort to make shitty mathematical "proofs" that don't make sense, use flawed methodology, are so riddled with arbitrarily assumed numbers that calling them proofs is laughable, ignore a lot of nuance and complexity in gameplay and just generally don't hold up, just make a new thread
These were moved here because they were ruining the OU thread but on further consideration yeah we're just not doing this anymore, please no more walls of text about made up numbers to justify why everyone should only run the same one lead always or whatever Believer of GXE

No new threads about it either, we will not be approving new threads to dump a bunch of bad math
 
At least someone is out there trying to find the real stuff like concepts like what sleep is worth relative to a KO....that's probably worth looking into.
Yeah, and that someone is everybody but you, because your math is out of touch with reality. Please stop spamming all the RBY OU threads with nonsense or you’re going to get escalating infractions. From now on you stick to this thread and talk about whatever ladder stuff you want, but don’t post walls of bad and misleading math, and leave the VR and OU discussion (which is based around tournament play) threads alone.

If you want to say “on ladder most people use Psychic leads so i think Jynx is the best lead” go for it. If you want to argue that Golem is good on ladder because of high Zapdos/high Rhydon/opponents don’t understand how to play so the worse damage ranges aren’t that bad/boomspam is good on ladder, by all means, go for it. If you want to post walls of poorly-reasoned math or suggest that people should only ever lead jynx and every other lead is bad because of 1400 elo/1760 glicko ladder stats, delete your post before you send it. If you want to talk about tournaments/overall RBY meta, play in a tournament before you talk. Thank you
 
Meditate Hitmonlee. I really like him. Someone on ladder surprised me with it and swept me. I was like, "HmmmMMMMmmmMMm, that looks fun." So, I've been using it and I really like it.
 
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my-image(39).png

Swords Dance, Sharpen, Meditate sweeper tier list.

B/C is the cutoff for guys i would bring to tournament. This is ranking their ability to swords dance sweep. It has nothing to do with their overall viability. At this role vic is outright outclassed by venu hence the significantly lower ranking.

Sandslash is undeniably the best at doing this. Twave immune is great. Venu is p damn good too with razor and powder.

Kabu is nice bc resists normals and can bop chansey with submission.

Kingler is nice. Krabhammer go brrr. Bulky and can ohko chansey. I like tang in this role. Not weak to psychic is great. Has dual powder. Kinda bulky. Can actually switch the fuck in on rhydon. Pinsir has bind and submission and hbeam and shit its great.

Rest isnt important but id like to talk abt specific guys. Zard is actually raw as hell in the lead slot. Would reccomend toying around with. Krabby and Sandshrew arent that bad paired with their bigger mons. They can do things. Farf is by far the worst no contest.
 
1. Sandslash.
2. Venusaur
3. Pinsir
4. Kabutops
5. Lickitung
6. Kingler
7. Victreebel
8. Tentacruel
9. Hitmonlee

Then the rest. There is a big gap between Sandslash and Venusaur. Smaller gap between Lickitung and Kingler. After Hitmonlee, everything else is very situational, at least in OU.
 
1. Sandslash.
2. Venusaur
3. Pinsir
4. Kabutops
5. Lickitung
6. Kingler
7. Victreebel
8. Tentacruel
9. Hitmonlee

Then the rest. There is a big gap between Sandslash and Venusaur. Smaller gap between Lickitung and Kingler. After Hitmonlee, everything else is very situational, at least in OU.
can you atleast explain SOME of this list lmao. Pinsir and lickitung are far too high id think.
 
I speak from my own experience. Pinsir has a very powerful Hyper Beam at +2, only really having Gengar as a roadblock (Rhydon can sometimes be beaten with Submission). It also has no weaknesses. Still needs support, but what booster doesn,t? None of these Mons is OU anyway.

As for Lickitung, well, I used it a lot on ladder and only 2 times in official RBY Tours. But those 2 times were these ones:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-791688 < RBY Cup Finals. Excal ended up winning the tour, but he had to prepare better for me in set 2.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2252984655-wgzgg2c9ehdjw6gduv0gbx7ravnqvlepw < RBY Championship.

After those 2 battles, you can understand that I trust Lickitung more than Tangela, Kingler or Charizard.
 
Although I've previously supported the idea that Venu is a better SDer in a vacuum than Bel, I think sometimes we take it too far lol and that the gap isn't as big as we tend to make it out to be. Sure SD isn't Bel's best set, but imo it can gain a lot of mileage out of the fact that most people expect Bel to be a Wrapper and status spreader.

The two sets kinda have opposite counterplay- vs Wrap you go to a paralysed mon to block status and bait out Wrap, then swap to something that threatens Bel. The part where you go to a paralysed mon is pretty bloody dangerous if Bel is SD though
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Also Beedrill is the worst fully evolved SDer in the game by a decent margin imo. Dies to everything, requires multiple boosts to be merely adequate, and has basically no good matchups aside from Grass/Poisons. Basically if it can't OHKO everything in front of it with HB it's screwed, but it's also really weak so that just doesn't make sense. I don't think it really has any tech options, and even if you try to wallbreak with DEdge rather than going for HB kills, it's gonna kill itself in a hurry

Farfetch'd may also suck, but I think it has better tech options- being able to set up on ReflectLax if timed right and Sand Attack to mitigate the impact of its hard counters. Because it uses Slash/BS rather than HB, it tends to be more of a wallbreaker that is a bit less inconsistent in making an impact than a HB sweeper that needs everything to align to fulfil its purpose. I find that a bit better, because at this power level, killing things is a struggle lol.

Not that it really matters though, both are trash lol
 
Here is the math for why I believe Jynx is insurmountable for leading with and should be the only lead for RBY....EVER:
Below is the most current (The 1760+ Glicko lead usage stats) for December 2025:
1 | Starmie | 25.51363%
| 2 | Jynx | 24.49624%
| 3 | Alakazam | 15.41635%
| 4 | Gengar | 12.14360%
| 5 | Jolteon | 8.13593%
| 6 | Persian | 3.27018%
| 7 | Chansey | 2.88317%
| 8 | Tauros | 2.84751%
| 9 | Exeggutor | 2.02492%
| 10 | Zapdos | 1.81365%
.
In order to calculate Jynx vs each of them we have to estimate to what a Lovely Kiss is relative to a KO.
Jynx will now be considered worth a percentage relative to the total lead stats based off of what lovely kiss landing is relative to a KO by the arbitrary standpoint of yourself. I'll show based off of many charts how Jynx is the only lead.

((((((68%)))))))
If Sleep is 90% of KO: (approx)
1 | Starmie | 23%
| 2 | Jynx | 12%
| 3 | Alakazam | 13%
| 4 | Gengar | 5%
| 5 | Jolteon | 6%
| 6 | Persian | 1.6%
| 7 | Chansey | 2.5%
| 8 | Tauros | 1.5%
| 9 | Exeggutor | 1.8%
| 10 | Zapdos | 1.6%
End: 68%!!!!!((Saying sleep alone is winning with Jynx if sleep is 90% of a KO, not even counting anything else Jynx is doing.)

((((((((64.3%))))))))))
If sleep is worth 80% of KO:
1 | Starmie | 21%
| 2 | Jynx | 12%
| 3 | Alakazam | 12%
| 4 | Gengar | 5%
| 5 | Jolteon | 6%
| 6 | Persian | 1.6%
| 7 | Chansey | 2.2%
| 8 | Tauros | 1.5%
| 9 | Exeggutor | 1.6%
| 10 | Zapdos | 1.4
End:66% if sleep is worth 80% of KO!!!!!!
(Saying sleep alone is winning with Jynx if sleep is 80% of a KO, not even counting anything else Jynx is doing.)

(((((59.7%))))))))
If sleep is worth 70% of a KO:
1 | Starmie | 18%
| 2 | Jynx |12%
| 3 | Alakazam | 11%
| 4 | Gengar | 5%
| 5 | Jolteon | 5.7%
| 6 | Persian | 1.6%
| 7 | Chansey | 2%
| 8 | Tauros | 1.5%
| 9 | Exeggutor | 1.6%
| 10 | Zapdos | 1.3%
End 59.7%!!!!!!

(((((53%))))))))
If sleep is worth 60% of a KO:
1 | Starmie | 15%
| 2 | Jynx | 12%
| 3 | Alakazam | 9%
| 4 | Gengar | 5%
| 5 | Jolteon | 5%
| 6 | Persian | 1.6%
| 7 | Chansey | 2%
| 8 | Tauros | 1.5%
| 9 | Exeggutor | 1.2%
| 10 | Zapdos | 1.3%
End: 53%

Why this keeps happening is that Jynx keeps static odds vs Itself, Gengar, Tauros, and Persian ......and Jynx if landing LK is considered a percentage of a KO otherwise.
(Also for Tauros and Persian specifically even if Jynx doesn't keep static odds vs those; they only make up a fractal of leads and the static odds I gave them were around 50-50 with Jynx anyways, thus lower than most of the estimates here.

.....Essentially even if you view Sleep as worth only as 60% of a KO, than Jynx still holds majority equity vs leads

However....(I personally believe sleep is worth about 90% of a KO and I believe Jynx holds a gigantic about 2/3 majority advantage over the meta).
 
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Here’s my insurmountable math for why Gengar should be the only lead ever:

100% of leads are Jynx so Gengar is favored.

Here’s my insurmountable math for why Alakazam should be the only lead ever:

100% of leads are Gengar so Alakazam is favored.

Here’s my insurmountable math for why Jynx should be the only lead ever:

100% of leads are Alakazam so Jynx is favored.

Think for just a moment
 
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