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OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread
- Thread starter emma
- Start date
From a competitive standpoint maybe. But RBY had that added insanely late. in a singleplayer game it should be fine i think?
Yeah I’m gonna make the executive decision that posting bad math will no longer be allowed nor will we be explaining why it’s wrong; it’ll just be deleted and infracted so this thread doesn’t devolve into mindless spam of questionable numbers
So is no one else (so far) going to talk about how Nidoqueen of all things saw a +10 rank increase this past year and it’s still not on this VR chart?
:rb/nidoqueen:
Like, this has to be some kind of outlier, right? This is by far the biggest increase any Pokémon saw in viability this past cycle and I don’t see it anywhere in the VR or on the ladder whenever I’m playing the tier more casually. I’m genuinely curious what happened here. Did Nidoqueen do something?
Also, Exeggutor going back up to #3 where it belongs is well deserved. Being the only Pokémon in the tier that resists both Electric and Psychic provides deceptively strong role compression and its ability to outspeed both Snorlax and Chansey and threaten status is invaluable for Chanseyless structures. Even at lower ELOs I find myself dropping this less than I have in recent memory since it’s so good at the collective effort to enable faster offensive threats whether through Explosion against slower walls or the combination of Double Status and Psychic’s Special drops.
:rb/nidoqueen:
Like, this has to be some kind of outlier, right? This is by far the biggest increase any Pokémon saw in viability this past cycle and I don’t see it anywhere in the VR or on the ladder whenever I’m playing the tier more casually. I’m genuinely curious what happened here. Did Nidoqueen do something?
Also, Exeggutor going back up to #3 where it belongs is well deserved. Being the only Pokémon in the tier that resists both Electric and Psychic provides deceptively strong role compression and its ability to outspeed both Snorlax and Chansey and threaten status is invaluable for Chanseyless structures. Even at lower ELOs I find myself dropping this less than I have in recent memory since it’s so good at the collective effort to enable faster offensive threats whether through Explosion against slower walls or the combination of Double Status and Psychic’s Special drops.
Nidoqueen is still very unviable unfortunately, you just had a few players ranking her relatively high compared to her relatively low placement last VR which lead to a big swing on the charts compared to other mons that were on more voters' minds. She didn't receive the required votes to make it onto the actual VR, it just kinda worked out that way lol
How does Exeggutor resisting Electric count as a big part of its profile, lol? Zapdos shreds it...unless you mean Exeggutor#3 is justified by the prevalence of RestTboltDkickTwave jolteon in the back
beats surfbolt mie silly
(please @ moderators delete this post chain and everyone who pollutes the thread with low quality stuff)
It isn't obvious egg wins vs surfbolt mie, it depends.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2638748201
This is my attempt to revive the jank for it shall live on etc etc
On a slightly more serious note - Slowbro with 2 attacks instead of TWave. You can only exclusively use it as a sweeper and you need to be kinda ahead already, but it doesn't lose leads. I've gone for
Amnesia Rest - Obvious
Blizzard - Covers Zappy D and Eggy
Psychic - Covers chansey in the long run (with special drops).
But the idea is to trade out support functions for more sweeping utility
This is my attempt to revive the jank for it shall live on etc etc
On a slightly more serious note - Slowbro with 2 attacks instead of TWave. You can only exclusively use it as a sweeper and you need to be kinda ahead already, but it doesn't lose leads. I've gone for
Amnesia Rest - Obvious
Blizzard - Covers Zappy D and Eggy
Psychic - Covers chansey in the long run (with special drops).
But the idea is to trade out support functions for more sweeping utility
If I'm going all in on Bro as a sweeper I probably prefer Reflect tbh, as it shuts down almost all revenge killing options, which I think is far more beneficial to supporting a Bro sweep. To use Egg as an example, I think I prefer Reflect since Egg's main counterplay against Bro (assuming sleep has been used) is to boom and set up a revenge kill, which Blizz doesn't really prevent.
Not to disagree that BlizzPsy a valid option, as it has different support requirements and can be better in some matchups, but I think I prefer Reflect most of the time. I see Blizz being useful mostly against Zap, there are also some scenarios where the extra attacking PP is valuable, but if a mono-Psychic Bro is getting PP stalled it's probably dealing a huge amount of damage in the process anyway so yeah there's that
Also side note, ReflectBro is fucking amazing. As long as Starmie is paralysed and sleep clause is active it can singlehandedly win games
Not to disagree that BlizzPsy a valid option, as it has different support requirements and can be better in some matchups, but I think I prefer Reflect most of the time. I see Blizz being useful mostly against Zap, there are also some scenarios where the extra attacking PP is valuable, but if a mono-Psychic Bro is getting PP stalled it's probably dealing a huge amount of damage in the process anyway so yeah there's that
Also side note, ReflectBro is fucking amazing. As long as Starmie is paralysed and sleep clause is active it can singlehandedly win games
-Body Slam
-Screech
-Hyper Beam/Fire Blast
-Explosion
Admittedly this is mostly theorycrafting, I'm still a little undecided on what team I'd like to try this out on, but I felt compelled to share my thoughts on this idea I had. Muk has some very interesting traits; one of the most interesting of which being that it has an incredibly powerful Explosion, being the third most powerful in the game after Snorlax and Golem's, beating out even the two Mewbers (except for a boosted Mew, but whatever). Second, it has access to Screech. On top of the obvious benefits of doubled physical damage, Screech, of course, will reapply any stat drops incurred from paralysis or burn. This set aims to take advantage of these two traits to make Muk a sort of strange wallbreaker that aims to blow a hole through the opponent's team with the (admittedly pretty short-lived) time Muk has on the field. A Screech + Hyper Beam combo is enough to one-hit KO Alakazam and KO Chansey after some chip damage or with some luck. Screech also helps Muk keep Chansey out of range of gaining health from Softboiled if you're pressuring it with damage. While it does not appreciate Earthquake, Muk has some decent tricks for Snorlax as well, as Screech can negate its Reflect and Explosion can get a teammate in while dealing heavy damage and keeping Snorlax from using Rest. Being just faster than Lax and taking neutral hits fairly well are also nice bonuses. Admittedly, though, none of this really solves the issue of Muk being slow and having a bad defensive typing, I'd assume there would be a decent few situations where it's forced to use Explosion the moment it gets in because it's going to have an otherwise hard time creating value otherwise, which, while this means it can still demand a little respect (I don't know of any non crit moves that will outright kill it in one hit, other than perhaps Amnesia Slowbro or something?), it's not really super ideal for it. Also it REALLY sucks that Screech is an 85% accurate move, so you might be a little fucked if you miss it.
I've returned from the wilderness after conducting unspeakable experiments, now I'm going to, uh, report on them
It's unusual for me to be posting about things with relevant usage, but even though Dragonair (and Weepinbell) are ranked on the VR, this feels like the spot to talk about them. Anyway, Dragonair has made its name as a key cog on Wrap teams, but when I moved onto testing it I wanted to explore other niches.
Firstly, is having a different typing enough to enable it to step out from the shadows of Dragonite? Superficially the answer might be yes, but when you start running calcs, things start to look very bleak, as Dragonair loses huge amounts of stats relative to Dragonite. My best argument is in the Starmie matchup- Dragonair is never KO'd by Blizzard unless it crits or freezes, giving it a roughly 73% chance to not die and land para. This also holds true after switching in on non-STAB Tbolt btw. Dragonite on the other hand, only has a roughly 49% chance to not get immediately incapacitated, as it gets OHKO'd by Blizzard a significant amount of the time. Does that matter? It's not big a difference in odds, but I kinda think it's enough for you to make different decisions, at which point the answer starts to become yes.
If you're running solo Dragonair as a high value para spreader that's better than Dnite at trading with Starmie, and can secure free switches for teammates, there's actually a lot of cool ideas there. I also tried Dragonair as a lead, since that's again something Dragonite could never reasonably do. It's mediocre at that role, but usable, the only unplayable matchup is Jynx
I also looked at running dual AgiWrap, with both Toxic and with a more conventional status plan. In theory this makes sense, as the Dragons can easily grind down opposing teams for each other. This is true in practice, but not nearly to the same extent that I was hoping. Randomly missing Wrap, and the need to set up gives opponents plenty of opportunities to undo your progress. Still, this core is lethal lategame. It's not uncommon to be well-behind in the midgame, only to full send the lategame and clutch up.
But yeah, dual Dragons isn't great midgame, especially Toxic. Although Toxic has AMAZING synergy with AgiWrap, Toxic is so bloody hard to spread that in practice it only helps a little. The synergy is so strong that I'm adamant that it has potential, but further optimisation may be needed to realise it.
Lastly, there's full Wrap. I decided to test 3xWrap for Dragonair, and look at 4xWrap as part of my Weepinbell testing. Anyway, I've gone full circle on Wrap. As a noob you had Wrap because it's toxic and unfun. Then as you get better you start to accept that it's a valid strategy that you need to plan for. Then after a while you hate Wrap because it's toxic, unfun and garbage. Like the strategy absolutely works on paper and a decent chunk of matches it will play out for you. But it's such an incredibly luck dependent strategy, that also has further flaws, like being extremely matchup-prone.
The one other thing I'll say regarding 3xWrap is that it's a bit of an awkward middle child, as it plays like a a full Wrap team but also doesn't consistently maintain Wrap chains. Wrap teams are also not that aggressive with para, as paralysing things slower than your Wrappers often isn't worth it. This all makes a 3rd non-Wrapper kind of awkward, as if it's Lax, it's not going to be getting the para support that it normally would, and it provides openings for the opponent to strike back (e.g. Egg trying to sleep). If you want to use something other than Lax, you're just looking at a much worse, less versatile Pokemon- it doesn't feel great either way.
Anyway, my verdict on Dragonair is that it's deserving of its D rank, and I have it on par with Kadabra. On its own merits it's mediocre due to its lack of bulk/power, but it's really valuable for Wrap teams, but I also think it's usable on more team structures than people give it credit for, where it's capable of playing a solid support role. Even if you disagree with me running Dragonair without Dragonite, the two value each other as they serve slightly different roles and can tweak their sets accordingly
I was overall quite happy with Dragonair. The same cannot be said for Weepinbell. I consider its ranking on the official VR an obscene, fraudulent mistake, and an affront to the many trashmons that are better than it (often by a large margin) but couldn't muster enough votes to secure a ranking.
Weepinbell on its own merits is bad. Still usable, but clearly too weak, being too vulnerable, not quite reliable enough and just struggling to justify a spot. However, because it's a worse version of Victreebel, building around it basically requires a certain type of team (4xWrap), so evaluating Weepinbell becomes a question of specifically evaluating its role on such teams, as well as the teams overall. I think that outside these teams Weepinbell isn't really usable- there's literally zero argument for solo Weep, while I don't think the VicWeep core is really worthwhile outside full Wrap, being less potent, less versatile and even worse in terms of defensive weaknesses
Firstly, its role on these teams. Even on dedicated Wrap teams, it feels like a weak link, but it does fill in the numbers, which sounds bad, but is very valuable for teams that depend on having too many Wrap/para users for opposing teams to handle. I find its contributions are usually fairly small, but nonetheless valuable, setting the stage for these teams to snowball towards their win con. Having said that, it stands out as being especially unreliable as part of an already unreliable strategy thanks to its dependence on Powder moves, and it manages to be arguably outclassed by Arbok and Dragonair, with both generally having better matchups.
The matchup issue is especially important, as Wrap teams are already very matchup prone, and this is by far Weepinbell's biggest flaw. Because it needs to be run alongside Victreebel, it compounds the existing matchup issues for these teams and amplifies them to the extreme, in some cases pushing them into borderline unwinnable territory. I think that if any team has any unwinnable matchup it's unviable (this might be a spicy take in newer gens), but for an RBY team you have to be doing something truly insane to reach that point.
Fortunately, I don't think 4xWrap teams quite cross that threshold, so I'm going to say that Weepinbell is viable, but bad. I think it's definitely better than Magneton, but I honestly don't see it as being better than Parasect, in theory a more flawed Pokemon, but one capable of fitting on more balanced teams. Either way, Weepinbell is criminally overrated and utterly undeserving of its rank on the official VR when many more deserving Pokemon miss the cut- it belongs in E rank
It's unusual for me to be posting about things with relevant usage, but even though Dragonair (and Weepinbell) are ranked on the VR, this feels like the spot to talk about them. Anyway, Dragonair has made its name as a key cog on Wrap teams, but when I moved onto testing it I wanted to explore other niches.
Firstly, is having a different typing enough to enable it to step out from the shadows of Dragonite? Superficially the answer might be yes, but when you start running calcs, things start to look very bleak, as Dragonair loses huge amounts of stats relative to Dragonite. My best argument is in the Starmie matchup- Dragonair is never KO'd by Blizzard unless it crits or freezes, giving it a roughly 73% chance to not die and land para. This also holds true after switching in on non-STAB Tbolt btw. Dragonite on the other hand, only has a roughly 49% chance to not get immediately incapacitated, as it gets OHKO'd by Blizzard a significant amount of the time. Does that matter? It's not big a difference in odds, but I kinda think it's enough for you to make different decisions, at which point the answer starts to become yes.
If you're running solo Dragonair as a high value para spreader that's better than Dnite at trading with Starmie, and can secure free switches for teammates, there's actually a lot of cool ideas there. I also tried Dragonair as a lead, since that's again something Dragonite could never reasonably do. It's mediocre at that role, but usable, the only unplayable matchup is Jynx
I also looked at running dual AgiWrap, with both Toxic and with a more conventional status plan. In theory this makes sense, as the Dragons can easily grind down opposing teams for each other. This is true in practice, but not nearly to the same extent that I was hoping. Randomly missing Wrap, and the need to set up gives opponents plenty of opportunities to undo your progress. Still, this core is lethal lategame. It's not uncommon to be well-behind in the midgame, only to full send the lategame and clutch up.
But yeah, dual Dragons isn't great midgame, especially Toxic. Although Toxic has AMAZING synergy with AgiWrap, Toxic is so bloody hard to spread that in practice it only helps a little. The synergy is so strong that I'm adamant that it has potential, but further optimisation may be needed to realise it.
Lastly, there's full Wrap. I decided to test 3xWrap for Dragonair, and look at 4xWrap as part of my Weepinbell testing. Anyway, I've gone full circle on Wrap. As a noob you had Wrap because it's toxic and unfun. Then as you get better you start to accept that it's a valid strategy that you need to plan for. Then after a while you hate Wrap because it's toxic, unfun and garbage. Like the strategy absolutely works on paper and a decent chunk of matches it will play out for you. But it's such an incredibly luck dependent strategy, that also has further flaws, like being extremely matchup-prone.
The one other thing I'll say regarding 3xWrap is that it's a bit of an awkward middle child, as it plays like a a full Wrap team but also doesn't consistently maintain Wrap chains. Wrap teams are also not that aggressive with para, as paralysing things slower than your Wrappers often isn't worth it. This all makes a 3rd non-Wrapper kind of awkward, as if it's Lax, it's not going to be getting the para support that it normally would, and it provides openings for the opponent to strike back (e.g. Egg trying to sleep). If you want to use something other than Lax, you're just looking at a much worse, less versatile Pokemon- it doesn't feel great either way.
Anyway, my verdict on Dragonair is that it's deserving of its D rank, and I have it on par with Kadabra. On its own merits it's mediocre due to its lack of bulk/power, but it's really valuable for Wrap teams, but I also think it's usable on more team structures than people give it credit for, where it's capable of playing a solid support role. Even if you disagree with me running Dragonair without Dragonite, the two value each other as they serve slightly different roles and can tweak their sets accordingly
Honestly a lot of these replays aren't necessarily the best. I had a lot of Dragonair ideas, so I didn't collect as many replays as I normally would, but continued using these teams after I was done collecting them
Solo Dragonair 1
Ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2388380665-nh2ot9cc68sp9k8t8us9rgga7p5hje6pw
Got a win with an early version of the team, and I think it's a reasonable showcase of Dragonair's ability- landed a high value para on the opponent's Zam, then managed to spread a reasonable amount of chip damage after an Agility. The only caveat here is that Dragonite would've performed better, as Dnite would've done more damage while Dragonair's typing made no difference in terms of longevity
Tour: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2535325624-dp5wxrvsd9i6c21nkttwyq9haf9vj30pw
Honestly a mess of a battle on my part, as some questionable early game plays but me well and truly behind. By the time I revealed Dragonair, it wasn't in a position to do much, as I'd failed to scratch Gengar, and my opponent's team had plenty of methods to prevent the spread of status
Solo Dragonair 2
Ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2397766987-axw114j7lqj4k8lorvrrdec81ym5lurpw
I benefited a fair bit from luck in this match, but hey, so it goes. As for how Dragonair performed, it switched in on a fully boosted Bro and eventually forced it out. Later in the game the threat of paralysis consistently scared out Tauros in favour of Star/Bro, both of which were considerably less threatening. Having said that, I was really wanting to paralyse their Starmie, but couldn't because they were constantly switching and thus forcing me to Wrap. This would be less sustainable against a Dragonite or a full Wrap team, and represents a huge problem for my solo Dair endeavours
Tour: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2535330906-979vnfj832rjib8u5mv15cr7q2b7h7tpw
Dragonair played a small but incredibly significant role in this match, switching in on Starmie's Tbolt and living the subsequent Blizzard to secure a huge para. Dragonite could only dream of making that play
Solo Dragonair 3
Both ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2410067477
This showcases what can happen if you don't have a plan for Dragonair. My opponent's response to Dragonair is highly questionable, as they allow it to land para on both Tauros and Starmie, despite having a sleeping Gengar that they could've gone to. As a result, I'm able to not only land 2 key paras, but also chip both Starmie and Tauros to a range where they can be easily KO'd
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2421990013-x0o39hftb2wn11ni9x4q9n6av8yw168pw
Very stupid haxy battle against a solid player. I would've lost but I landed 2 freezes, but I still nearly lost bc of a 255 lol. Anyway, I didn't really spot any openings to bring Dragonair in, so I had to wait until I sac'd Jynx. I would've landed a high value para, but I got haxed- I had to settle for para and chip on Lax and Egg, which didn't really provide a great deal of value.
Toxic+AgiWrap
Both ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2434249124
I think this was like the 3rd or 4th game I played with this team, and I picked up a win on a solid opponent. Having said that, I benefited from a questionable decision by my opponent to sac their Gengar with a revealed Dragonair. By the time it was revealed I would've struggled to take it down. I was also fortunate the rest of their team could be Wrapped without using Agility first, but based on the information I had when Dnite entered play I figured it was likely
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2448962653
Solid opponent, and Dragonair actually performed well. This also showcases the value in Toxic, as I couldn't avoid paralysis when setting up with Dragonair, but it was still able to make a huge impact thanks to the additional damage provided. I did get a bit lucky this game though, with a freeze on Lax and I kinda got bailed out when I had a brain fart and let my Cloy get slept
Dual Dragons, no Toxic
Both ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2466474242-nl89nkaxnlwdik5vogxnwpc3c6hoc2jpw
Picked up a win against a respectable opponent, although it's not really showcasing this team's theoretical strategy. I lost Tauros early in the ditto (sure it's 50-50, but I incorrectly guessed they wouldn't HB so it feels like a misplay), meaning I had to pivot to relying on AgiWrap as my win con. This mostly worked out, though I was helped a little by luck, as my Dragonair Agi'd for free, then didn't miss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2479689142-elfxx7iheqj9cul1xttf05sgd1xh19ypw
Close game against a respectable opponent. Dragonair did a reasonable job of wearing down the opponent before I decided trading para w Zap was worth it. I didn't quite manage to preserve Tauros as a win con, but Dragonite had several opportunities to finish off my opponent's weakened team, only for luck to screw it over. A rough outcome, but I think this team is particularly susceptible to bad luck so that's worth noting
3xWrap
All ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2486111596-9adykh40iihiwbkb2nh7i2ehrj94392pw
Not sure I executed this team's strategy the best this game so I wasn't really planning on saving this replay. But it was a super fucking fun and tight match, aside from the part where Dragonair got PP stalled, so I'm saving it anyway.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2488563021-kjw27x5k3iybvpqh80g3x0fjitd5c47pw
Not sure I'm satisfied with this replay either. Benefited from an early freeze, otherwise this was a solid Wrap game. I did get pretty lucky with Wrap not missing though
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2523829711-j8qrqn5dyajtixm9djbcg37xbuawsx9pw
Another replay against a solid opponent so fuck it, I'm done with this team. Tough matchup, and I kinda struggled to spread status throughout this game, as they did a great job blocking status with their Chansey, leaving their Jynx free to threaten basically my entire team. Swapping out to Chansey from Jynx T1 is brutal for Wrap. Despite that, I had solid odds in the endgame (luck, plus not being punished too badly for missing Wrap), as Lax was sweeping if it got a favourable HB role against Jynx... except I got frozen LOL
Solo Dragonair 1
Ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2388380665-nh2ot9cc68sp9k8t8us9rgga7p5hje6pw
Got a win with an early version of the team, and I think it's a reasonable showcase of Dragonair's ability- landed a high value para on the opponent's Zam, then managed to spread a reasonable amount of chip damage after an Agility. The only caveat here is that Dragonite would've performed better, as Dnite would've done more damage while Dragonair's typing made no difference in terms of longevity
Tour: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2535325624-dp5wxrvsd9i6c21nkttwyq9haf9vj30pw
Honestly a mess of a battle on my part, as some questionable early game plays but me well and truly behind. By the time I revealed Dragonair, it wasn't in a position to do much, as I'd failed to scratch Gengar, and my opponent's team had plenty of methods to prevent the spread of status
Solo Dragonair 2
Ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2397766987-axw114j7lqj4k8lorvrrdec81ym5lurpw
I benefited a fair bit from luck in this match, but hey, so it goes. As for how Dragonair performed, it switched in on a fully boosted Bro and eventually forced it out. Later in the game the threat of paralysis consistently scared out Tauros in favour of Star/Bro, both of which were considerably less threatening. Having said that, I was really wanting to paralyse their Starmie, but couldn't because they were constantly switching and thus forcing me to Wrap. This would be less sustainable against a Dragonite or a full Wrap team, and represents a huge problem for my solo Dair endeavours
Tour: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2535330906-979vnfj832rjib8u5mv15cr7q2b7h7tpw
Dragonair played a small but incredibly significant role in this match, switching in on Starmie's Tbolt and living the subsequent Blizzard to secure a huge para. Dragonite could only dream of making that play
Solo Dragonair 3
Both ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2410067477
This showcases what can happen if you don't have a plan for Dragonair. My opponent's response to Dragonair is highly questionable, as they allow it to land para on both Tauros and Starmie, despite having a sleeping Gengar that they could've gone to. As a result, I'm able to not only land 2 key paras, but also chip both Starmie and Tauros to a range where they can be easily KO'd
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2421990013-x0o39hftb2wn11ni9x4q9n6av8yw168pw
Very stupid haxy battle against a solid player. I would've lost but I landed 2 freezes, but I still nearly lost bc of a 255 lol. Anyway, I didn't really spot any openings to bring Dragonair in, so I had to wait until I sac'd Jynx. I would've landed a high value para, but I got haxed- I had to settle for para and chip on Lax and Egg, which didn't really provide a great deal of value.
Toxic+AgiWrap
Both ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2434249124
I think this was like the 3rd or 4th game I played with this team, and I picked up a win on a solid opponent. Having said that, I benefited from a questionable decision by my opponent to sac their Gengar with a revealed Dragonair. By the time it was revealed I would've struggled to take it down. I was also fortunate the rest of their team could be Wrapped without using Agility first, but based on the information I had when Dnite entered play I figured it was likely
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2448962653
Solid opponent, and Dragonair actually performed well. This also showcases the value in Toxic, as I couldn't avoid paralysis when setting up with Dragonair, but it was still able to make a huge impact thanks to the additional damage provided. I did get a bit lucky this game though, with a freeze on Lax and I kinda got bailed out when I had a brain fart and let my Cloy get slept
Dual Dragons, no Toxic
Both ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2466474242-nl89nkaxnlwdik5vogxnwpc3c6hoc2jpw
Picked up a win against a respectable opponent, although it's not really showcasing this team's theoretical strategy. I lost Tauros early in the ditto (sure it's 50-50, but I incorrectly guessed they wouldn't HB so it feels like a misplay), meaning I had to pivot to relying on AgiWrap as my win con. This mostly worked out, though I was helped a little by luck, as my Dragonair Agi'd for free, then didn't miss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2479689142-elfxx7iheqj9cul1xttf05sgd1xh19ypw
Close game against a respectable opponent. Dragonair did a reasonable job of wearing down the opponent before I decided trading para w Zap was worth it. I didn't quite manage to preserve Tauros as a win con, but Dragonite had several opportunities to finish off my opponent's weakened team, only for luck to screw it over. A rough outcome, but I think this team is particularly susceptible to bad luck so that's worth noting
3xWrap
All ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2486111596-9adykh40iihiwbkb2nh7i2ehrj94392pw
Not sure I executed this team's strategy the best this game so I wasn't really planning on saving this replay. But it was a super fucking fun and tight match, aside from the part where Dragonair got PP stalled, so I'm saving it anyway.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2488563021-kjw27x5k3iybvpqh80g3x0fjitd5c47pw
Not sure I'm satisfied with this replay either. Benefited from an early freeze, otherwise this was a solid Wrap game. I did get pretty lucky with Wrap not missing though
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2523829711-j8qrqn5dyajtixm9djbcg37xbuawsx9pw
Another replay against a solid opponent so fuck it, I'm done with this team. Tough matchup, and I kinda struggled to spread status throughout this game, as they did a great job blocking status with their Chansey, leaving their Jynx free to threaten basically my entire team. Swapping out to Chansey from Jynx T1 is brutal for Wrap. Despite that, I had solid odds in the endgame (luck, plus not being punished too badly for missing Wrap), as Lax was sweeping if it got a favourable HB role against Jynx... except I got frozen LOL
I was overall quite happy with Dragonair. The same cannot be said for Weepinbell. I consider its ranking on the official VR an obscene, fraudulent mistake, and an affront to the many trashmons that are better than it (often by a large margin) but couldn't muster enough votes to secure a ranking.
Weepinbell on its own merits is bad. Still usable, but clearly too weak, being too vulnerable, not quite reliable enough and just struggling to justify a spot. However, because it's a worse version of Victreebel, building around it basically requires a certain type of team (4xWrap), so evaluating Weepinbell becomes a question of specifically evaluating its role on such teams, as well as the teams overall. I think that outside these teams Weepinbell isn't really usable- there's literally zero argument for solo Weep, while I don't think the VicWeep core is really worthwhile outside full Wrap, being less potent, less versatile and even worse in terms of defensive weaknesses
Firstly, its role on these teams. Even on dedicated Wrap teams, it feels like a weak link, but it does fill in the numbers, which sounds bad, but is very valuable for teams that depend on having too many Wrap/para users for opposing teams to handle. I find its contributions are usually fairly small, but nonetheless valuable, setting the stage for these teams to snowball towards their win con. Having said that, it stands out as being especially unreliable as part of an already unreliable strategy thanks to its dependence on Powder moves, and it manages to be arguably outclassed by Arbok and Dragonair, with both generally having better matchups.
The matchup issue is especially important, as Wrap teams are already very matchup prone, and this is by far Weepinbell's biggest flaw. Because it needs to be run alongside Victreebel, it compounds the existing matchup issues for these teams and amplifies them to the extreme, in some cases pushing them into borderline unwinnable territory. I think that if any team has any unwinnable matchup it's unviable (this might be a spicy take in newer gens), but for an RBY team you have to be doing something truly insane to reach that point.
Fortunately, I don't think 4xWrap teams quite cross that threshold, so I'm going to say that Weepinbell is viable, but bad. I think it's definitely better than Magneton, but I honestly don't see it as being better than Parasect, in theory a more flawed Pokemon, but one capable of fitting on more balanced teams. Either way, Weepinbell is criminally overrated and utterly undeserving of its rank on the official VR when many more deserving Pokemon miss the cut- it belongs in E rank
Importable
Ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2628964737
First win that I was remotely happy with- managed to spread para extensively, allowing Weepinbell and Dragonite to thoroughly grind down the opposing team. I could've optimised my play further as well, as there were opportunities to SD that I missed because I was kinda playing on autopilot. Having said all that, it cannot be understated just how incredibly impactful my luck in the lead spot was- Jynx is a fucking nightmare for this team and luck invalidated it here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2641911526-8tf6us386o482tgjb4lei30jwy6em8bpw
Solid opponent, don't know how I feel about this match. Although Weepinbell proved useless, Wrap nearly worked out, however it felt like a single misplay was all it took to undermine my position
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2642695945
Solid opponent, not sure if this is a good replay or not, but oh well. Solid opponent anyway. Misplayed the opening and got Weepinbell paralysed, but it was still able to be somewhat effective- pressuring Chansey and then ultimately KOing Starmie on the way out. The trouble was that my opponent succeeded in preventing me from wearing down the rest of their team, meaning that by the time I broke through I didn't have enough juice to close things out against 4 largely fresh Pokemon. Doesn't help that I missed a pretty crucial powder against Zap either
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2657651732
Win against a solid opponent (even if they used IB Star and went too hard for the freeze). Weepinbell only did a little bit, but the part it did play was incredibly clutch, paralysing the opposing Tauros. I probably should've gone for RLeaf chip after that, since my opponent would always have a plan to kill Weepinbell when I Wrap in that scenario, but I wanted to see their followup. Otherwise, this was a very solid Wrap game, with actually fair Wrap luck (18/21), though I benefited immensely from a Hypnosis miss
Tournament
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-946460
I think I stuck to the Wrap gameplan reasonably well through the first half of the game, and things were looking very positive for me. However when I was looking to trade status with Starmie, Weepinbell failed to clutch up, and that honestly completely tanked my position. My now paralysed Weepinbell was fodder for Zapdos and I couldn't reliably maintain a Wrap chain. Status on Dragonite was practically unavoidable, and my Tauros would've been insufficient to carry. Technically this could've happened to any Pokemon, since it was a FP that caused me to whiff status, but Weepinbell's odds here are only slightly better than a coinflip anyway, which really isn't great (0.75*0.75=0.5625)
Ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2628964737
First win that I was remotely happy with- managed to spread para extensively, allowing Weepinbell and Dragonite to thoroughly grind down the opposing team. I could've optimised my play further as well, as there were opportunities to SD that I missed because I was kinda playing on autopilot. Having said all that, it cannot be understated just how incredibly impactful my luck in the lead spot was- Jynx is a fucking nightmare for this team and luck invalidated it here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2641911526-8tf6us386o482tgjb4lei30jwy6em8bpw
Solid opponent, don't know how I feel about this match. Although Weepinbell proved useless, Wrap nearly worked out, however it felt like a single misplay was all it took to undermine my position
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2642695945
Solid opponent, not sure if this is a good replay or not, but oh well. Solid opponent anyway. Misplayed the opening and got Weepinbell paralysed, but it was still able to be somewhat effective- pressuring Chansey and then ultimately KOing Starmie on the way out. The trouble was that my opponent succeeded in preventing me from wearing down the rest of their team, meaning that by the time I broke through I didn't have enough juice to close things out against 4 largely fresh Pokemon. Doesn't help that I missed a pretty crucial powder against Zap either
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2657651732
Win against a solid opponent (even if they used IB Star and went too hard for the freeze). Weepinbell only did a little bit, but the part it did play was incredibly clutch, paralysing the opposing Tauros. I probably should've gone for RLeaf chip after that, since my opponent would always have a plan to kill Weepinbell when I Wrap in that scenario, but I wanted to see their followup. Otherwise, this was a very solid Wrap game, with actually fair Wrap luck (18/21), though I benefited immensely from a Hypnosis miss
Tournament
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-946460
I think I stuck to the Wrap gameplan reasonably well through the first half of the game, and things were looking very positive for me. However when I was looking to trade status with Starmie, Weepinbell failed to clutch up, and that honestly completely tanked my position. My now paralysed Weepinbell was fodder for Zapdos and I couldn't reliably maintain a Wrap chain. Status on Dragonite was practically unavoidable, and my Tauros would've been insufficient to carry. Technically this could've happened to any Pokemon, since it was a FP that caused me to whiff status, but Weepinbell's odds here are only slightly better than a coinflip anyway, which really isn't great (0.75*0.75=0.5625)
I think its worth mentioning that wrap as an archetype is considered viable due to it's ability to shit on slow and bulky teams, which you'll mostly see in the form of Slowbro or Rhydon teams, and we've been seeing this quite a bit more with Rock + Slow Water teams being brought quite a bit more recently due to people wanting to try out Laxless structures.
When enigami was playing invitational a year or two ago (I dont remember the iteration) he was spamming wrap spam, which led to players "Counter Teaming" wrap. Which meant bring back jynx, zapdos, back alakazam, back gar, keep your fastmons unstatused, etc. Anti-Wrap at its core is literally RBY's version of HO.
Which brings me to the actual issue of your writing off of weepinbell and 4x Wrap teams as a whole: Not a single replay you posted for weepinbell was vs a slow team. Its like Playing Rhydon into Big 6 Amnesia lax and complaining that rhydon is ass. This leads me to believe you either didnt end up playing a rhydon the entirety of your test window (which could be plausibile, as i generally dont see many dons/gols on ladder) or you are too harshly criticizing weep for it's bad matchups but not praising it enough for near autowinning it's good ones. In 2026, atleast to me, it feels like a lot of people are spamming MieEggDon and similar structures. THAT is the enviornment that wrap thrives in, not the crackhead zapdos offense slop ladder throws at you.
I don,t like Weepinbell, but for a different reason. Victreebel is a Mon fully walled by Gengar. Adding Weepinbell means you have 2 Mons walled by Gengar. If said Gengar is not the lead, you almost certainly lose the battle.
So, when I use Victreebel and need multiple wrappers, I add them. But I don,t add Weepinbell, there are better options.
https://pokepast.es/0bd2aaf08a6bb869 < This is my favorite 4 Wrap team. Its by no mean perfect, but wins a fair share of battles. Lead Tauros has a good shot at winning vs Jynx and lead Gengar and a good shot at paralyzing Starmie and Alakazam. It most likely will be paralyzed itself, but not before doing a lot of damaging and maybe paralyzing something. Goal is to paralyze everything on the opposing team and sweeping with Lickitung. Jolteon is a secondary win condition vs Rhydonless teams and can paralyze too. Arbok will live any hit except BOOM and STAB Psychic or EQ. This means it lives EQ from Tauros and Psychic from Gengar unless they crit.
So, when I use Victreebel and need multiple wrappers, I add them. But I don,t add Weepinbell, there are better options.
https://pokepast.es/0bd2aaf08a6bb869 < This is my favorite 4 Wrap team. Its by no mean perfect, but wins a fair share of battles. Lead Tauros has a good shot at winning vs Jynx and lead Gengar and a good shot at paralyzing Starmie and Alakazam. It most likely will be paralyzed itself, but not before doing a lot of damaging and maybe paralyzing something. Goal is to paralyze everything on the opposing team and sweeping with Lickitung. Jolteon is a secondary win condition vs Rhydonless teams and can paralyze too. Arbok will live any hit except BOOM and STAB Psychic or EQ. This means it lives EQ from Tauros and Psychic from Gengar unless they crit.
I don't really think there's a substantial sampling issue here, especially since the replays aren't just a random sample of matches, there's a few factors I consider that might filter out replays. I generally don't buy that the difference between ladder and tournament metas is so large that they're mutually exclusive, we're playing the same game and although a lot of the ladder is slop, that doesn't mean there isn't a solid chunk of solid players. Like I was using this team almost exclusively on ladder for roughly 3 months, ofc I played Don teams, in July it had higher usage than Zap anyway
Now I think you are right in that I do weigh Weepinbell's bad matchups more heavily than its good ones, and I'm trying to consider if I'm falling prey to cognitive biases, or if my criteria for an adequate team needs adjusting. I think that even after I account for these possibilities, I still stand by my position that Weepinbell's bad matchups significantly outweigh its positives. I think Weepinbell's bad matchups far outnumber its good ones, and the positive impact it has in favourable matchups is relatively small since its team already has a significant matchup advantage, whereas the opportunity cost of not running something to deal with bad matchups on an already matchup prone team is much more dire.
Genuinely the only unequivocally good matchups for Weepinbell are teams that use Don imo. Meanwhile there's a lot of potential issues, much of which you've noted, but like, there's soooo many. It's such that basically any other reasonable 6 mon combination will have some sort of threatening matchup, either endangering the entire Wrap team if they ever end up on the back foot, or including a mon that wouldn't have been especially problematic were it not for Weepinbell chewing up a slot
- Stacking Blizzard users is a problem- if they enter play and aren't immediately Wrapped, you either switch in Starmie or lose a whole ass Pokemon
- Articuno is apocalyptic for Weepinbell teams, even if it is rare. Jynx is also threatening, but thankfully lead is more manageable while back Jynx is either ultra-esoteric tech or an extreme counterpick
- Even Water types (not Bro) are an issue for Weepinbell, as it's slower, takes a shitload of damage (dies to crits), and nothing else on the team besides Starmie can switch in- most of them straight up just die immediately. And if you're going for status that's not even reliable either
- Modern Gengar usage happens to destroy Wrap. Almost always in the back, Psychic more popular than ever, enough said
- Zapdos is a menace to Weepinbell specifically, it wouldn't even be that big of a deal for a Wrap team that doesn't stack Grass types.
- Back Psychics can easily adjust to just not get paralysed, as 4x Wrap teams make their game plan obvious very quickly. Also Zam specifically would merely be solid against Wrap if you weren't stacking Poison types. With Weepinbell it becomes waaay better
- Lowkey, even Egg isn't great for Weepinbell, that speed tie has incredibly lopsided risk/reward, and paralysing Egg isn't otherwise that worthwhile for other Wrap users a lot of the time.
I also just think matchup fishing is a lousy way to play the game. I'd rather back myself to play well with a solid team than try to get an "unlosable" matchup when it just as easily risks an "unwinnable" matchup
As for other 4x Wrap teams as a concept, not Weepinbell specifically, they are legit- not great, unreliable, but definitely usable. I like to talk shit about Wrap because I don't like using Wrap teams or playing against Wrap, but I don't take it that seriously
Eeveeto you mentioned lead Tauros and I'm actually appalled I didn't arrive at that option for my Weepinbell team previously, I think it's a massive upgrade in the Jynx matchup. It may not have been where you were going with your post, but thanks for the suggestion :)
Unless you run 5 physical attackers, probably no. More often than not, Egg doesn't use Rest, while Chansey always uses Soft. This means Egg is easier to be worn down.
Of course, you could run TW less Jolt, which is viable, but then you will need more Mons that paralyze.
Body Slam would be my #1 pick, followed closely by Earthquake. I just remembered which ones I didn't duplicate that I regretted when doing a run on Pokemon Stadium Round 2.
Why pick one, though? You can do as many as you realistically want. Are you worried about corrupting your save file? I think the "danger" the glitch poses of ruining your save file is an old rumor, combined with some people on old forums probably not admitting to also having cheat codes active while performing the glitch. In that case, I suppose you could ruin your save by trying to manipulate too many things in memory all at once.
I'd go with the following:
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-boiled* (for Chansey and Mew, if you want to do the Mew glitch)
- Hyper Beam
- Rest
- Explosion
It isn't, I got all the TMs I needed and enough Rare Candies to get things to 100.
"You need to have less than 128 of the item on the sixth slot of your Bag. Just that."
I think three things happen:
1. Your ability to pressure sleeping pokemon becomes way worse.
2. Chansey loses one of its best counters
3. Rhydon loses its most problematic check.
I think the result of this is that spamming twave t1 with a normal move egg or Lapras would be the gold standard, because you're less able to actually capitalize off of early sleep. You'd rather open up opportunities to pressure parad Chansey instead. I think the gap in value between para/sleep shrinks a lot, which is also why rhydon becomes a lot better, because it is the para abuser and forces progress.
I suppose some of the Tauros light mons would see some use as well (Kang/Persian), but idt they would be mandatory like Tauros was. Maybe Kang is good enough though, idk.
1. Your ability to pressure sleeping pokemon becomes way worse.
2. Chansey loses one of its best counters
3. Rhydon loses its most problematic check.
I think the result of this is that spamming twave t1 with a normal move egg or Lapras would be the gold standard, because you're less able to actually capitalize off of early sleep. You'd rather open up opportunities to pressure parad Chansey instead. I think the gap in value between para/sleep shrinks a lot, which is also why rhydon becomes a lot better, because it is the para abuser and forces progress.
I suppose some of the Tauros light mons would see some use as well (Kang/Persian), but idt they would be mandatory like Tauros was. Maybe Kang is good enough though, idk.