Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

[kay]

Natu :
Really? Reflect 5 turns eviolite, what a niche. It's totally outclassed as a screener. Feather dance works only with spiritomb, and feather dance means that you can't hit steel types. It can't check fighting type, all of them hit heavily natu, with koff or ice punch. Bad offensive stats, bad defensive stats even with eviolite or feather dance, it's like running def murkrow, it's just bad. Its overall stats are just too low to exerce any pressure. Like i've said, its only niche is magic bounce to "counter" mesprit/ferro, but C+ is too much.

Okay so I originally wasn't going to post to support my own nom, but I think you have a really big misunderstanding of the mon.

Reflect is there to beat Pursuit. This has been a trend on frail defensive mons for as long as I can remember and is nothing new because it works. If they predict you to switch you drop a reflect and now you're covered because the next pursuit, even if you switch, isn't going to do relevant damage to you, allowing you to not get trapped. In Natu's case all the Pursuit trappers bar Crunch Skunk don't actually do enough damage to force you out, so you just stay in on all of them for the reflect, no prediction needed. Its not meant to be this amazing screen setter, its there to use it for itself.

Feather Dance works the exact same way and is the set I personally use, and which by the way, works for more then just Tomb. The most common Skunk set right now are the Poison Jab sets as they aren't set up bait for Clefairy. The effect this has on Natu is it allows you to not get Pursuit trapped by even skunk as Pjab doesn't do enough damage to 2hko you, so its beaten by both the reflect or Feather Dance sets.

The lack of offensive pressure isn't relevant. One because you're running Natu on defensive balance or stall which naturally will have low pressure mons and walls that can make up for its lack of pressure. The ability to say to any Clefairy/ Ferroseed/ Mesprit/ Regirock team "you're not getting hazards out" is actually insane as hazard stacking is one of the best ways to break balance and stall right now.

Two is because it runs Night Shade which allows it to hit steels like you said it can't, but also 3hkos stuff like Hitmonchan and Primeape as well as stuff like Aurorus after rocks. So you'll give offensive stuff a switch in at the cost of chunking them, so it's not exactly free. Plus U-turn on a predicted switch can give your team momentum as you're always forcing out these defensive mons like Ferroseed.


I know this is kind of a long post for just a Natu, but I recommend before you talk down on it you give it a shot. Here's the set in case you wanted to try it.

 

[Arcobaleno]

I know that Reflect is for pursuit, but i just think it's too specific to put that thing C+, because natu does to find a slot in stall teams, and it's very hard to run natu in stalls simply because cuno + 2nd defog core is more reliable. Furthermore, in balanced, you lose a role slot if you already run a hazard remover, et if you're not, natu isn't enough for fat balanced.

 

[jklioe]

Every single argument against Ferroseed seems to boil down to "it's predictable" and "it loses to Fire moves/Grass-types with coverage/passive". As for addressing the former argument, its predictability and the fact that it only uses one set with maybe a few filler options, is not so much a negative point as it may seem and it's not what I'd consider entirely fair either.

Pokemon like Archeops, Charizard (though it had more viable sets), and Hariyama needed pretty much only one set to be dominant forces in the metagame while they were in the tier, key term being "dominant". It doesn't matter if a Pokemon is just limited to one particular set, what matters is its overall effectiveness, to which I maintain that Ferroseed's dominance, influence, and effectiveness is on par with the S-rank Pokemon.

Even without the examples of the banned Pokemon, it's worth noting that I believe that Physically Defensive Mesprit is the single best set in the tier. It check loads of Pokemon without really being passive, plays an integral part in U-turn/Volt Switch cores due to it generating an insane amount of momentum easily (even things that try to check it, such as Skuntank, do negligible damage with its Colbur Berry in tact while in return being slow U-turn fodder), sets up Stealth Rock extremely easily, almost impossible to OHKO outright, and Healing Wish is one of the best support moves in pretty much any team. Even if this was Mesprit's only set, I would still rate it S-rank just by its sheer effectiveness.

I think Ferroseed's set is also extremely effective because the utility it possesses is phenomenal, it's passiveness is offset by the amount of pressure that Leech Seed and Iron Barbs apply against opposing teams, and it's extremely difficult to exploit without the obvious examples I've mentioned in my first paragraph. While those are relevant to mention, I don't think it's entirely fair to make it out as if they're the end-all and be-all to Ferroseed's effectiveness as they don't directly stop it from doing its job, they all have to be careful about switching in, and how Ferroseed teams can be built in a way that doesn't get rolled over by those Pokemon completely thanks to the insurmountable amount of Pokemon that appreciates its support. To me, I don't see why this argument wouldn't be applied to even Skuntank, a Pokemon who is typically checked by a similar pool of Pokemon (Fighting-types, Ground-types, Regirock, Ferroseed, etc.) but they don't completely detract its ability to function in the roles that it is used for. I think this is a big point that certain people are often overlooking in this nom.

I also don't think that examples like Hitmonchan are very convincing since Hitmonchan itself has lots of problems with checking Ferroseed in general. If Hitmonchan switches into a Leech Seed, Ferroseed can then Protect the following turn, adding a total of 25%. From there, Hitmonchan can predict it switching out and Rapid Spin or click Drain Punch. If Hitmonchan mispredicts and spins/goes for a coverage move, Gyro Ball does about %40, combined with an extra turn of Iron Barbs damage and Leech Seed damage. Clicking Drain Punch successfully will do about 60-70%, but it's not gaining that much health back with the combined damage of Leech Seed and Iron Barbs. Doesn't seem so solid a check to me. Similar scenarios like this apply to every other switch in that isn't immune to Leech Seed, which includes other hazard removers that aren't Lurantis.

I see the arguments against Ferroseed, but I just don't think very many of them are very fair when compared to the problems that the other S-rank Pokemon can have. I still think it shapes and dominates the metagame in a way that's on par with them.

 

[Darkinium]

Tangela from C+ to B-/B: Neutral

Reasoning

The Magmortar ban was just really good for this, since now it doesn't let in what was the tier's most dangerous wallbreaker for free. Archeops leaving was nice as well, but Tangela could theoretically 1v1 it due to ridiculous physical bulk. Honestly, its physical bulk is just... really good. However, this thing is also pressed for moveslots, between Leech Seed, Toxic, Synthesis, HP Fire, Knock Off, and Grass-type STAB, and is complete Ferroseed fodder depending on its moveset. It also lets in other dangerous attackers for little to no cost, such as Pyroar, Oricorio-Sensu, and Exeggutor-Alola. Its special bulk overall is quite mediocre, too. Honestly, I can see this thing both rising or staying, but if it were to rise I'd definitely only back a conservative move to B-.

Natu from C- to C+: Leaning towards C

Reasoning

This Pokemon is just great for hard bopping Ferroseed, Regirock, Weezing, Clefairy, and a good amount of setters overall. Not a total momentum drain, either, with U-turn for capitalizing on forced switches, Feather Dance / Reflect to escape Pursuit (not to mention it already takes reduced damage from Skuntank's because it escapes with a slow U-turn), and Night Shade for good chip. However, not super easy to fit onto teams because most prefer other removers, but Natu is definitely a solid option. Just, again, choosing more conservatively for C rather than C+.

Alolan Exeggutor from A- to A: Agree

Reasoning

Nothing much to add to what's been said: bans have been good, strong breaker, OTR alleviates low Speed and is nigh unbeatable for Offense, etc.

That's all I've got for commentary on actual nominations. As for arguments, Ferroseed being one-dimensional isn't neccesarily a flaw if it's able to perform its role well, as jklioe pointed out. Regarding Natu, it's not much different from other removers, only differentiating itself in how it "removes" hazards. All that's changing is that it just has to be in front of the setter when they click their hazards, so saying stuff like "you could use an Rapid Spinner of Defogger instead" by virtue of the way they remove hazards isn't an extremely steady argument.

allstarapology is a like farmer like if you agree

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Victreebel to C+
with the banning of Archeops and the prevelance of pokemon like carracosta, regirock, and kingler, Victreebel is a bigger threat than ever. +2 solar beam is absolutely no joke, decimating basically everything that doesn't resist it. Furthermore, Victreebel has weather ball, which lets it get past annoying steel and bug types, especially ferroseed, who would hardwall it otherwise, giving it a big niche over other sun sweepers like exeggutor. +2 sludge bomb and weather ball in sun are also devastating, here are some calcs to prove this mons power.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 772-907 (212 - 249.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (772, 780, 788, 798, 806, 814, 827, 834, 842, 853, 860, 868, 881, 889, 897, 907)

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 312-367 (93.4 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 132+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in Sun: 925-1092 (317.8 - 375.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 328-386 (107.8 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Primeape to A+
another mon who really appreciates the departure of Archeops, Primeape is a much better scarfer now that both archeops and qwilfish are gone. While it may still struggle with Spiritomb, it can now freely run gunk shot without worrying about that pesky puffer fish switching in. Crushes great pokemon like Carracosta and Aurorus, and can easily get an attack boost with so many defoggers running around, which if you are using the powerful CB set, can be devastatingly powerful. great scarfer/bander and great fighting type currently. bump it to A+.

 

[Darkinium]

View attachment 117222Victreebel to C+
with the banning of Archeops and the prevelance of pokemon like carracosta, regirock, and kingler, Victreebel is a bigger threat than ever. +2 solar beam is absolutely no joke, decimating basically everything that doesn't resist it. Furthermore, Victreebel has weather ball, which lets it get past annoying steel and bug types, especially ferroseed, who would hardwall it otherwise, giving it a big niche over other sun sweepers like exeggutor. +2 sludge bomb and weather ball in sun are also devastating, here are some calcs to prove this mons power.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 772-907 (212 - 249.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (772, 780, 788, 798, 806, 814, 827, 834, 842, 853, 860, 868, 881, 889, 897, 907)

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 312-367 (93.4 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 132+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in Sun: 925-1092 (317.8 - 375.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 328-386 (107.8 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

View attachment 117225 Primeape to A+
another mon who really appreciates the departure of Archeops, Primeape is a much better scarfer now that both archeops and qwilfish are gone. While it may still struggle with Spiritomb, it can now freely run gunk shot without worrying about that pesky puffer fish switching in. Crushes great pokemon like Carracosta and Aurorus, and can easily get an attack boost with so many defoggers running around, which if you are using the powerful CB set, can be devastatingly powerful. great scarfer/bander and great fighting type currently. bump it to A+.

Although at best I'm leaning towards C+ for Victreebel due to how it rips apart most builds lacking Aurorus or Abomasnow, I feel the calcs are heavily biased in its favor, given how it assumes that Victreebel has gotten a Growth boost under its belt, which isn't very easy to accomplish given that it's quite frail and its durability is even worse when compounded by Life Orb. I also don't really see how the Archeops ban has helped it since Victreebel already beat in under sun, which is usually the only time it'll be on the field, and calling Carracosta "prevalent" is definitely not as true as it was some time ago. This nomination also doesn't address Victreebel's issues, that is its frailty, lack of durability with Life Orb, needing to play around Skuntank, and Sun not being an extremely great archetype.

I also really gotta disagree with the Primeape nomination here. First off, mentioning Qwilfish isn't really relevant at all given how long it's been since it has left PU, and not much in the current meta has changed in favor of Primeape. In fact, it has gotten worse because of Regirock being less obligatory on almost all builds with Archeops leaving, Spiritomb's very existence, and Togedemaru taking Primeape's throne as the best Choice Scarf user.

 

[MZ]

Voting started yesterday, so we never hit on the above Victreebel or Primeape noms. They'll be in the next round though.

Ferroseed A+ to S
Kangaskhan A- to A
Lilligant A- to A
Floatzel A- to B+
Alolan Dugtrio B to B+
Bellossom C+ to B-
Tangela C+ to B-
Crabominable C+ to B-
Carbink B- to C+
Bronzor C+ to C
Zebstrika C- to D
Wormadam-Trash UR to D
Chatot D to Unranked
Grumpig D to Unranked
Cacturne D to Unranked

Ok, there's a lot to touch on here both in nominations we did and did not agree with, even though most of these nominations had fairly decent supporting posts. Ferroseed is the biggest change, and one where I might not be the best person to justify as I don't remotely agree with the change. However, it's undeniable that Ferroseed is a hugely effective and splashable Pokemon. Its presence and the effectiveness of Spikes are what force teams to so strongly consider hazard removers, and it pairs well with pretty much every common defensive Pokemon. The fact that teams are prepared to run lures and more or less handle Ferroseed with proper planning doesn't change the fact that it's always a highly effective Pokemon at controlling the hazard game and racking up chip damage. This is the opposite of the rejected S rank nomination, Gurdurr, where the level of adaptation does legitimately make it perform worse and be less useful overall. Teams prepared for Gurdurr can still struggle versus it, but Gurdurr has suffered much more from preparedness than Ferroseed due to the different role it plays. It also just doesn't really define the metagame like, at all, and the vote was 10-0 against it rising.
To talk about some of the non-S rank nominations: Wormadam actually differentiates itself by Aurorus switchins being highly valuable making up for how garbage it is, Shiinotic works when you use it but can't realistically be justified on teams. That issue with Pokemon which maybe work but realistically you'd never want to use is why we unranked 3 Pokemon despite those nominations not being brought up in the thread, we decided it was time to just cut down D rank a bit and Chatot, Grumpig, and Cacturne are all super niche and fairly awful Pokemon. People in the thread were also much more positive on Silvally-Ghost and Kecleon than we were in discussions, both are still awkward picks at the teambuilder stage and haven't really had a big chance to prove themselves, they're good but not really deserving of a bump. Jynx didn't drop because low usage doesn't change how it's still just terrifyingly effective in tons of matchups, although yeah it has slipped a bit since the Passimian meta, and Carbink dropped because countering Magmortar was a huge deal for it, but it's still just an underrated Pokemon overall. I think those were the most controversial things here (e: oh Bronzor wasn't brought up in the thread, council just thinks it kinda sucks and is a highly mediocre and pressure-able Aurorus resist that didn't deserve to be so high), but if you want some specific reasoning on any vote or change, feel free to PM me, ask on Discord, post in the SQSA thread, etc. Also the votes can be viewed here, just hit the "see previous responses" link.

In terms of discussion points, Alolan Persian was 50/50 on dropping. I'd like to see it stay in B, people not using it is not the same thing as it being bad and in a metagame with so many decently strong but somewhat awkward wallbreakers to bring in (Aggron, Aurorus, Crabominable, Zangoose), it's a really annoying Pokemon to have to deal with. More opinions there from people who've actually used it would be nice. Also I personally would like to see more on Sensu dropping, we just voted against it but it was kind of under-discussed and is absolutely worth considering. And, finally, there's another episode of Untier Talk! HJAD and I are joined by Taskr and talk mostly about the VR and some of the nominations voted on above. We were all fairly against Ferroseed rising so that's a bit awkward now, but whatever.

 

[Skankovich]

View attachment 117222Victreebel to C+
with the banning of Archeops and the prevelance of pokemon like carracosta, regirock, and kingler, Victreebel is a bigger threat than ever. +2 solar beam is absolutely no joke, decimating basically everything that doesn't resist it. Furthermore, Victreebel has weather ball, which lets it get past annoying steel and bug types, especially ferroseed, who would hardwall it otherwise, giving it a big niche over other sun sweepers like exeggutor. +2 sludge bomb and weather ball in sun are also devastating, here are some calcs to prove this mons power.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 772-907 (212 - 249.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (772, 780, 788, 798, 806, 814, 827, 834, 842, 853, 860, 868, 881, 889, 897, 907)

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 312-367 (93.4 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 132+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in Sun: 925-1092 (317.8 - 375.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 328-386 (107.8 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

View attachment 117225 Primeape to A+
another mon who really appreciates the departure of Archeops, Primeape is a much better scarfer now that both archeops and qwilfish are gone. While it may still struggle with Spiritomb, it can now freely run gunk shot without worrying about that pesky puffer fish switching in. Crushes great pokemon like Carracosta and Aurorus, and can easily get an attack boost with so many defoggers running around, which if you are using the powerful CB set, can be devastatingly powerful. great scarfer/bander and great fighting type currently. bump it to A+.

I think Victreebel should rise but I'm not sure it should do so based on its Sun sets, particularly when Aurorus is such a prominent mon and brings trouble to the playstyle as a whole. Instead I think it should do so for this set:

Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 132 HP / 252 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Vic's dual STABs + HP Fire threatens most common balance cores and the raw power of Leaf Storm means even blanket special checks like Eel, Hitmonchan and Audino have to be weary:

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 203-239 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 304-360 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 234-279 (79.8 - 95.2%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (The percentages for this feature seem to be inverted? The more hazards you put on the lower the percentage gets you get the point though)

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb into Leaf Storm vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 263-309 (89.7 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 301-359 (73.5 - 87.7%) -- not a KO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb into Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 339-399 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- not a KO

If you get the sludge bomb poison it's game over for dino!

Not only that but its power means that non-specially bulky things that resist its STABs take a huge chunk too:

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 169-199 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 187-222 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar: 177-209 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togedemaru: 164-192 (60.5 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Oricorio-Sensu: 168-199 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But anyway you get the idea, it's hard to switch into but that's not especially unique in a tier full of breakers. What makes it worth using and rising imo is its ability to get easy switches on balance staples like Ferro, Clef, Gurdurr, Gastrodon, non-cm Spiritomb etc. thanks to its typing, and then its access to Strength Sap which gives it the sustainability to switch into these mons throughout a match and also lets it render checks like Skunk useless. You also check the likes of the aforementioned Gurdurr along with Primeape and Kingler and absorb TSpikes! Neat mon imo.

 

[SergioRules]

Been almost 2 months since I've posted so here's a short thing about some Water-types I've been feeling lately

Rises

Poliwrath: B- --> B
So I think this mon's really cool right now in the meta especially since Mag and Arch ban as the stuff it checks now are really important. I posted about it in my sample team submission, but basically its typing offers tons of great resistances to top tier mons (and other not top tier but still strong mons) that allow it to easily threaten stuff with Scald burns or Focus Blast. Personally my favorite set is SubToxic with enough speed for Modest Aurorus. Some of the best mons that Poli checks are as follows: Ferroseed, Aurorus not locked into Freeze Dry, Scarf Pyroar, Regirock, Carracosta, Kingler, Lycanroc, and that's just in S and A rank. It really gets over shadowed by other Fighting-types we have but the resistances it gets with Water and access to Scald give it a definite niche that I think merits a rise.

Kingler: A --> A+
Idk why but I feel like A just isn't high enough for this thing. its physical breaking power is insane and not much checks it. Even the new Check Compendium GSI section has Gastro, followed by a bunch of weird stuff that people don't really use like Lurantis, Leafeon, and Tangela (which by no means are bad mons, just really uncommon). And as much as I hate to speculate on future stuff in a VR post, the rumors of Gastrodon rising makes Kingler really happy and I'd say if those rumors do turn up to be true in the next tier shift, Kingler should definitely be looked at to rise.

Drops

Carracosta: A --> A-
This thing just isn't as good right now as it has been in the past. The Shell Smash set is still too slow and with Ferroseed on the rise, it either has to run ridiculous lure Z-moves or HP Fire to KO it and then you're left with no real way to hit opposing Water-types. It also faces competition from Kingler which is much faster and can beat Ferroseed much easier. The defensive set is still okay but I can't think of too many notable things that it's useful for that Regirock can't do except for taking Water moves a little better.
edit: fsr the only set I could think of when writing this was rockium but people reminded me of fightinium which is a really good set that actually busts through a lot, comment about speed still stands but I can see why people wouldn't want this to drop from that set. imo it's still not as good as some other stuff in A like Chan, Lilli, or Ape

people not using it is not the same thing as it being bad

Ludicolo and Kabutops: B --> B-
Grouping these two together because I think they should drop for the same reason. Rain isn't nearly as big of a playstyle as it used to be. Aurorus is super common, ending Rain Dance as it comes in (though both of these can still beat it so I guess that's something) and Ferroseed beats them unless they have rare Fighting coverage. Both suffer from extreme 4MSS and while that's not necessarily a reason for them to drop, it does make them a lot more difficult to fit on teams unless the have same dedicated support. I must say, a Sash SD Weak Armor Kabutops set sounds pretty fun but is a lot more situational than just using Kingler.

Floatzel: B+ --> B
Now this is one I'm more iffy on since it did just drop in the last VR update but Archeops' ban really did take away Floatzel's main niche in the meta. Don't get me wrong, I love Floatzel and I like using it, but its main appeal was outspeeding the base 110's and outspeeding that has become a lot less necessary so it makes it harder to justify than stronger special attackers like Pyroar, Sensu, Frostom even though they're slower. It does however have the ability to outspeed both non-Scarf Pyroar and Alolan Duggy, which is part of the reason that I'm iffy on this, I mostly just wanted to bring it up for discussion.

 

[Dr N Gin]

Probopass B- ---> A-/B+

- Excellent MUs vs top Pokemon
- Versatile
- Splashable on all playstyles
- Less passive than Regirock

Probopass is one of the best anti-meta Pokemon in PU at the moment. It's typing, immunity to toxic, bulk, wide offensive and support movepool and ability in Magnet Pull means it can deal with a range of significant threats and can be fitted on almost any team.

Probopass checks and counters a huge swathe of the meta. Notably, it hard counters all the current S Rank mons and at least checks everything in A+ bar Gurdurr and Swanna (the latter can't switch in due to fear of volt switch.) It deals with common cores exceptionally well. Being able to have a single mon that can switch in and pressure Ferroseed, Clefairy, Mesprit, Skuntank and Weezing is invaluable to every type of team. It's ability, Magnet Pull means it can trap the hugely annoying Ferroseed to prevent hazard pressure or clear the way for normal and water type sweepers. Probopass also checks/counters some highly dangerous, difficult to manage Pokemon including Oricorio-g, Aurorus, Pyroar and Stoutland. It also forces Togedemaru to spam u-turn rather than its STAB moves.

Probopass' wide movepool means it can be tailored to fit the teams needs. It can come in on common Pokemon and set up Stealth Rock all game. It can run Flash Cannon, Hidden Power Fire, Earth Power and Power Gem depending on what the team needs to pressure/counter. Probopass also provides a super slow volt switch that guarantees (bar ground types and Lanturn) that your wall-breakers can get damage-free multiple times per game. Finally Probopass can run toxic and/or taunt to function as a stall-breaker. Probopass' MU vs Stall is further improved by its immunity to toxic.

Probopass' above average stats can be EVd according to the team's needs. Defensive variants can invest in HP and either def or spdef or both. Offensive variants can run max special attack without sacrificing top much of Probopass' bulk. Stall breaker variants can run enough speed to outspeed up to neutral base 75s (although out speeding base 60s is usually sufficient.) Finally, running 0 speed with a negative nature means Probopass attacks last, volt switching on nearly everything and out speeding both Crabominable and Exeggutor A in Trick Room.

Probopass' versatility means it is splashable on a wide range of play styles. It provides a reliable rocker and check to common wall breakers for stall and acts as a rocker, sponge, and slow pivot for Offense and Balance. It can also function as a stall breaker for all playstyles. Probopass pairs extremely well with common fighting resists like Mesprit and Weezing and easily forms part of two or three Pokemon cores that are capable of checking most of the metagame.

I have found that Probopass + fighting check frees up a lot of space for creative team building. Below is a replay of a room tournament final showing Probopass' prowess against common metagame Pokemon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-755399543

In short, Probopass needs a big promotion. I personally think A- is appropriate but I understand if that is too big of a jump. It should be moved up to B+ at least.

 

[Crying Lightning]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I'm a little bit biased because I love crappy stall Pokemon, but I've used these two mons waaaay too much on the ladder so I feel pretty confident in how good they are.

Tangela C+ ---> B

Tangela deserves a rise for its absolutely absurd physical bulk and extremely useful defensive typing. Counters just about every fighting/physical water type even after eating a knock off. Beats Hitmonchan and Gurdurr with Leech Seed, Sleep Powder and Knock Off, and completely invalidates Carracosta/Kabutops/physical Poliwrath/Kingler/Basculin/Golem/Kecleon/Floatzel just through its sheer bulk and typing. Knock off is mandatory IMO, because it allows Tangela to annoy switch ins once something is already asleep, although HP Fire could have some merit to beat Grass types. Regenerator is just the icing on the cake, allowing it to eat U-turns and Volt Switches for free and allowing Tangela to forego Synthesis.

Corsola Unranked- - ->C-
In a similar vein, Corsola is actually viable in a Regenerator core alongside Tangela and Audino. By no means am I saying that Corsola is good, but it actually checks quite a few prominent threats in the meta such as Skuntank, Weezing, Mesprit, and just about every form of Silvally while providing Stealth Rock support. Recover and Regenerator also allow Corsola to eat hits and spread Toxic/Scald multiple times throughout a match. It's actually surprisingly difficult to OHKO, and it can heal back to full health very easily. It's situational, but surprisingly pretty solid in the right circumstances.

 

[yogi]

Okay, just going to reply to a few nominations:

Probopass b- > a-: disagree with this big of a jump, I'd settle with b here

Probopass has definitely gotten better, there's no denying that. Both Archeops and Magmortar getting banned are pretty big for it, as now it's able to act as a better Fire- and Flying-type resist compared to before, checking threats like Pyroar, albeit with difficulty if it's the Choice Specs set, and Oricorio-G. Being able to beat the ever-common Ferroseed + Clefairy core is also a big bonus alongside checking a lot of higher ranked Pokemon somewhat. However, I find that Probopass can be rather difficult to actually fit on team that are looking for a Normal-type resist, as it loses to basically every Normal-type in the tier, and is actually deadweight in quite a few matchups that don't include FerroClef. This leads me to believe that it doesn't belong at a- or even b+ at this point in time.

Ludicolo and Kabutops b > b-: disagree

I really don't agree with this nomination. Recently I've play-tested with Hjad and both I and him have used Choice Scarf Kabutops as an effective form of aggressive removal. A decent enough speed tier coupled with great STABS and the ability to force switches actually means Choice Scarf Kabutops carves a very solid niche for itself; even the Swords Dance Z-move set is effective in the current meta, with Fightinium Z being able to dismantle things like Gastrodon and Ferroseed. Ludicolo is another one that I just can't get behind. People underestimate how good its STABs alone are, being able to hit practically everything in the tier for at least neutral, alongside a fantastic way of sweeping teams with Rain Dance late-game. I understand these nominations are due to how common Aurorus is and the fact you're considering them on a Rain archetype, but I just can't get behind putting two underexplored Pokemon this low, especially when they function fine outside of a dedicated hyper offensive team.

Allstarapology - Today at 12:13 AM
like, water you doing trying to nom it down when it kicks grass late-game

I do agree with both the Kingler and Poliwrath rises too, but don't have much to add to either of them.

 

[Darkinium]

Metang from C to C-/D

This thing competes way too closely with two of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier, Ferroseed and Regirock. What does this offer over them? Well, uh... Jynx counter? Jynx has not only decreased in usage, but has gained better answers than Metang, such as Spiritomb and Togedemaru. Aurorus check? Why not use Wormadam-Trash, who does the same thing but reliably? It can even hold Leftovers, too! More offensive presence/not as passive? Leech Seed and Gyro Ball chip from Ferroseed definitely isn't doing nothing as most of us can attest to, not to mention Protect racking up more damage as Ferroseed continues to Spike up. Regirock has both a higher Attack stat and higher BP STAB move. Normal check not weak to Fighting-type moves? Stoutland is still checked very solidly by Ferroseed and Regirock. The fact that Metang has no reliable recovery is a big letdown, which is where Regirock and Ferroseed come in... again. Metang admittedly has cool utility options too, such as Pursuit, but can't fit them in easily between Stealth Rock, Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Pursuit, Toxic and Bullet Punch. Overall this is just way too hard to justify over Ferroseed, Regirock, and even Wormadam-Trash. Please drop.

Rotom-Fan from C to C-/D

Another very difficult-to-justify Pokemon. As a defensive remover it's awful, quite frankly: loses to nearly every setter I can think of; it's a magnet for Toxic and Leech Seed due to its source of recovery being Leftovers; can't check Fighting-types, or anything, really, because of its Stealth Rock weakness and hating Stone Edge, Ice Punch, and Knock Off; hard to find a reason not to just use Eelektross/Lanturn + hazard removal. As a scarfer I feel it's even worse: unremarkable speed tier; emergency hazard removal is shit compared to Swanna, Kabutops, Shiftry, etc.; very little reason to use over other scarfers such as Togedemaru, Pyroar, or Primeape. Please drop as well.

I'll probably edit my post or make a new one commenting on other nominations, but I really wanted to get out my hatred for these two Pokemon, lol

 

[ManOfMany]

Manectric to B-

I've been using a Specs Manectric set recently, and it has surprised me by being consistently a valuable player on teams. Manectric's role is to be a decently powerful offensive sweeper who grabs easy momentum with Volt Switch. Manectric has gotten better recently with the loss of Palossand, meaning that less teams carry actual Electric-immunities. This means that Manectric can often revenge common pokemon like Swanna, Oricorio, and Kingler while gaining momentum in the process, which is great for offensive teams. Furthermore, Manectric has the perfect coverage to deal with the Electric-immunities, with Gastrodon being OHKO'd by HP Grass and Togedemaru by Overheat (which hits almost like a STAB move off of a Choice Specs set). Only Lanturn is really a huge thorn in Manectric's side, and even then it often loses momentum itself trying to play around Lightningrod. Archeops leaving also helps because it outsped Manectric and this speed tier is no longer as relevant. This makes Manectric a better pick than Zebstrika a majority of the time. Raichu-Alola is its most significant competition as a fast Electric-type attacker but it is still weaker by a good amount, and being easily Pursuit-killed by both Skuntank and Spiritomb is a major flaw for running a similar set. Even if one considers Manectric's niche as a fast Electric-type unimportant, it still manages to be a decent special attacker by itself. It is speedy, it has great coverage, a semi-useful ability, and is deceptively strong. Specs off of 105 SpA can do significant damage to neutral pokemon as well, such as Mesprit, Skuntank, Gurdurr, and Regirock. Manectric is actually very comparable to Pyroar in this aspect, although of course it is not quite as good. And although I'm not going into depth on it for this nom, Manectric can also run a decent Choice Scarf set. It's not too powerful but it can revenge pretty much everything in the tier, including other Scarfers. TLDR: fast, strong, momentum-y


Other noms:
Probopass: I agree this should rise, though not as high as A- because it's definitely not on par with pokemon like Gastro and Stoutland. Very awkward to use in practice, but it does have great matchups with many top pokemon in the tier and a valuable niche in trapping. B+ should be a good spot.

Oricorio: Very dangerous pokemon and still good, but it should probably drop a subrank. Lots of unfavorable matchups due to common Pursuit trappers, the continued popularity of Regirock, Eelektross, and others and I feel it is just a bit worse than Swanna. Bulky sets are interesting but just exacerbate its flaws.

 

[Memeing Hard]

Just one little nom here:

Leafeon from B- to C+

The meta is pretty unkind to the grass eeveelution right now. Almost every mon at the top of the VR beats leafeon handily and it absolutely hates the the ferroseed half of the ferroclef core (to be honest, it doesn't really do well against a CM clef either). The prevalence of mini-hail cores as well as wisp mons also hurt leafeon's viability.

I've tried the old SD set as well as a z-celebrate set and they both really lack the coverage to be able to effectively punch holes into common switch ins. Typically the best thing it does to defensive mons is hit it with a knock off, which while useful in a match isn't enough to justify it being in the B- ranks.

 

[Graceclaw]

Just one little nom here:

Leafeon from B- to C+

The meta is pretty unkind to the grass eeveelution right now. Almost every mon at the top of the VR beats leafeon handily and it absolutely hates the the ferroseed half of the ferroclef core (to be honest, it doesn't really do well against a CM clef either). The prevalence of mini-hail cores as well as wisp mons also hurt leafeon's viability.

I've tried the old SD set as well as a z-celebrate set and they both really lack the coverage to be able to effectively punch holes into common switch ins. Typically the best thing it does to defensive mons is hit it with a knock off, which while useful in a match isn't enough to justify it being in the B- ranks.

I actually disagree with this nom. With the loss of Mortar and Archeops (both of whom could revenge-kill Leafeon), offensive grass types (and, indeed, grass types in general) are in a much better spot. Leafeon has a good speed tier, and the SD set can beat both Ferroseed and all Clefairies 1v1, though it will take chip from Ferro if it is not weakened beforehand (but in that case, why are you bringing in Leafeon to clean/sweep/break?). Its innate physical bulk also makes it hard to revenge-kill with priority (22-25% from fully invested Chan).

Additionally, it retains its niche as the most powerful physical sun abuser, though sun is falling in viability due to Aurorus.

I definitely wouldn't argue for it to rise right now, but it certainly deserves its B- ranking.

 

[Conor3197]

Corsola Unranked- - ->C-
In a similar vein, Corsola is actually viable in a Regenerator core alongside Tangela and Audino. By no means am I saying that Corsola is good, but it actually checks quite a few prominent threats in the meta such as Skuntank, Weezing, Mesprit, and just about every form of Silvally while providing Stealth Rock support. Recover and Regenerator also allow Corsola to eat hits and spread Toxic/Scald multiple times throughout a match. It's actually surprisingly difficult to OHKO, and it can heal back to full health very easily. It's situational, but surprisingly pretty solid in the right circumstances.

Corsola -> C- : Agree, but will settle for D.
Just want to comment on this since no one else really seemed to have much to say about it. I have been trying Corsola out myself on a semi-stall team with the core that was suggested and I have to say that Corsola has really proven to be useful. So I would consider its main competition to be Clefairy for bulkier / stall builds, however what Corsola has that Clefairy lacks is Regenorator and leftovers recovery, giving it a bit more longevity. I will admit that Corsola is very situational on builds, but it has something which sets it apart from the other Pokemon in the tier, which is why I think it desserves at least D rank. It's amazing ability to spread statuses like Toxic and Scald burns also works very nicely for bulkier builds, which also sets it apart from Clefairy on bulkier builds. I also think Corsola has a good defensive typing, making it suitable for bulkier teams.
Replay : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-757620979

Tangela -> B+ / B
While I was messing around with some stall builds, I realised that Tangela's bulk is actually something that has really been forgotten about. With Magmortar and Archeops gone, this Pokemon benefits greatly. Tangela can tank at least 1 hit from the physical threats in the tier and continue to drain them down with leech seed. It can also Knock Off bulkier Pokemons items ie. lefties, helping to chip them down. Regenerator gives it longevity. Overall this mon is just a pain to deal with unless you can Knock Off eviolite.

 

[asa]

right so i'm back in this bitch

raise poliwrath to b imo. the defensive typing + ability are highly valuable at the moment, especially with threatening breakers like kingler, aggron, carracosta, and alolan sandslash being as good as they are, subpunch with toxic is annoying for a couple of cores to switch into (namely ferroclef, and even spiritomb to some degree if you catch it on the switch, as well as more offensive cores utilizing aurorus), specially offensive subtoxic sets are more annoying for teams lacking clefairy to switch into (this set even possesses useful priority in vacuum wave), and the utility it can provide with other options like encore is slightly underrated imo.

a bit on the fence about kingler rising, though i'm not 100% against it. i just think that while it's undeniably good and threatening as hell for teams of all kinds to deal with, i feel like the fact that pokemon that can check it defensively, think lurantis, poliwrath, and tangela, as well as more offensive checks such as choice scarf pyroar and manectric are on the rise hurts it.

now for my own nom. imho, spiritomb is a clear cut above the rest of a and should be moved to a+. the amount of utility and support it can provide teams in just one slot due to the roles it can compress is insane. revenge killer, status spreader, pursuit trapper, stallbreaker, spinblocker (which is huge considering ferroseed's dominance as well as defensive rocks mesprit and clefairy being as good as they are), lure for fighting-types and weezing, even a memento user for more offensive teams (ability to spinblock and revenge kill frailer, faster choice scarf users comes into play here). the ability to do all of this while still maintaining good defensive presence due to its bulk + pinch berry is also rather big. on the flip side, i've found that crotomb is rather difficult to prep for and pulls some form of weight in every match its in due to its great defensive presence. even teams with clefairy can find dealing with the thing hard.

other noms i wanna address but didn't know exactly what to say about: raise probopass but not to a-, don't drop carracosta, don't drop the rain duo, raise manectric, leave oricorio-g, ban kingler.

 

[Ktütverde]

Hi, I didnt plan to make a particular nom, I also dont want to cause indignation or whatever with what I'm going to say below. But I read a post about corsola, and as a self-proclaimed corsola expert, would just like to say a few words.

Corsola
Corsola doesn't have a real niche. I've made many teams around it and tried to use its theoretical niche to its fullest, but its pointless. I might be wrong ofc, do not trust what I'm saying, use it as a support for further consideration. If you decide to use corsola, you should use it for/as:
1) Only AV corsola is viable (imo). I might often be regarded as a troll, but I'm serious about corsola having a little niche. Stealth rock corsola is pointless, and can't do anything as compared with AV.
2) As a safe counter to: weezing/oricorio-sensu/mesprit (except CM)/silvally-dragon ( a rising force imo)/ swanna/articuno.
3) Reliable check to: skuntank/ jynx / lanturn/combusken.
4) Aurorus/Pyroar scouter. By "scouter" I mean: "counter" if they click a resisted move (ie 3/4 of their moves); "check" if they click Freeze-dry/HP grass. But the huge difference with, let's say SpDef gastrodon, is that you (the player) will win in all the scenarios: if they go freeze dry u can bring clefairy for exemple, or pyroar. Corsola+the team will therefore beat the dinosaur or the lion.

I probably forgot to say many things, but I want the short to be post. Feel free to try corsola out, to think about it. From my experience, it's nearly impossible to tell if it's viable or not by pure thinking. I would love to say: Unrank corsola; but contrary to shiinotic having an obvious edge over tangela in more offensively oriented teams due to preventing free kills for drampa/eggy-alola and as a better leech seed user, corsola is in practice near impossible to justify, and takes one slot with often little results. Audino is also usually preferred as an aurorus/pyroar "scouter".

DO NOT rank corsola, unless someone proves its viablity through many, many replays.

About other noms
I agree with metang and rotom fan dropping; with poliwrath rising too, it is a pretty good teambuilding choice right now with aggron and kingler becoming very scary threats, able to destroy balance on their own; do not drop sensu, it's a super glue against gurdurr and lilligant, is fast, can open holes and stallbreak with taunt. Kingler is fucking busted, but not necessarily splashable and centralizing yet.

Last note
I wouldn't be surprised if silvally-dragon's usage skyrockets too, this pokemon is actually super good and very underrated, best defogger by far with skuntank, and I'm pretty sure it will be the top1 silvally soon.

EDIT: forgot to say corsola mainly works vs Specs/scarf dinosaur/lion; lifeorb lion is tougher to deal with, bloomdoom=corsola cmon. Locked aurorus is the best aurorus so corsola is generally a safe counterplay to aurorus as a scouter.

 

[tondas]

Hey lads

Put Pommu in B imo. The recent rise of the Taunt Calm Mind set pushed this mon up in viability by a fair margin. Elec/Fly is just a rlly beneficial typing since it checks the abundance of flying and fighting types in the tier, naturally pressures common forms of hazard removal, helmet sets chip things like Primeape and Mes uturning which puts them in range for things like Lycan and Kingler to go haywire, and it threatens spin users in a similar manner to Sensu by virtue of typing and setup and all that. Another thing to note is that Pom is actually a GSI to things like Gurdurr and Crunch Skunk which Sensu has to think twice about doing, and Pom can effectively beat or turn these mons into setup fodder.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-760593199 ted v sam in bo3, Pom is effectively able to abuse Bellossom and turn itself into a wincon, not necessarily CM but it's the same utility roost shenanigans

Drop Rosey to C. It faces increasing competition from the likes of Ferro and Tangela as a spiker/bulky grass respectively, has 4MSS between moves like Spikes, Dual STAB, Sleep, Recovery, HP Fire, etcetera. It loses to/can't threaten most common forms of hazard removal and it ends up being a liability in most games because it just can't consistently keep spikes up. Outside of setting spikes Vic just straight up outclasses this thing too, it's an actual offensive presence with Strength Sap letting it beat traditional checks and in general I'd be glad to have these two swap ranks.

Also rise Dragonvally drop Ghostvally, these two are leagues apart in terms of viability and should not be in the same subrank

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Toucannon C- > C+
Losing Archeops meant many things for the meta, and one of them is allowing Toucannon to strive easier. Another meta change that helped it out was Magmortar’s ban which helped grass types like Ferroseed and Tangela gain usage. I believe it should be ranked for its niche in web teams.

I have been using this set.

Toucannon @ Flyium-Z
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bullet Seed
- Return
- Swords Dance

A +2 Toucannon OHKOs anything that isn’t Regirock, Probopass, or Aggron and can sweep balance teams with either none of the mons I mentioned above, or they are weakened all on its own. It also has a great synergy with other hard hitters like Kingler, and Primeape. It’s immunity to all hazards except Rocks is valuable on web teams and one of the reasons I nommed it for.

Here is several calcs that showcase Toucannon’s wallbreaking potential

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 369-435 (126.8 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 399-469 (119.4 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 399-471 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 379-447 (101.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 40 HP / 220 Def Lanturn: 358-423 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 373-439 (108.4 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togedemaru: 228-268 (84.1 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The afromentioned Probopass and Regirock can still be dealt with depending on the situation on hand.

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 190-225 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Note that Probopass doesn’t OHKO it unless it is carrying Power Gem + rocks.)

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 250-300 (68.6 - 82.4%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery (Regirock has no reliable recovery, so rocks and any form of chip damage should turn the tables for Toucan Sam and Regirock.)

Now I know this question is on everyone’s mind while reading this.

Q: Does it really have a niche as a Normal Type Wallbreaker when we have Stoutland and Kangaskhan that already do the job nicely with a higher speed tier?

A: While Stoutland and Kangaskhan are surperior with their higher bulk and speed and not to mention they have a better matchup against Aggron and Probopass, Toucannon does exceptionally better against Ferroseed, Regirock, and fighting types as a whole. Let me explain. Ferroseed is one of the best balance mons in the tier and so is Regirock. They forces Kangaskhan to run Fire Punch, or Earthquake But if Kanga runs Fire Punch, it loses the opportunity to deal a decent chuck of damage to Regirock, and Earthquake is a 4HKO. Stoutland’s Superpower is a 2HKO on Regirock, but afterwards it takes two more hits to take it out. Ferroseed is 2HKOd by it regardless of the attack drop. But then it takes chip damage. That sounds good enough, but players can take advantage of the stat drops and swap into something that can

A) Simpily force it out.

B) Set up on its face.

C) Gain more momentum on it.

The band set itself is also prediction reliant. Predict correctly, or put yourself in a desirable yet common position. (Also Stoutland may leave because NU is in love with it). Toucannon can beat these two (Regirock if you take chip damage into consideration) without the need of prediction. Kangaskhan and Stoutland are Gurdurr food. They hate taking Drain Punch and Mach Punch and Gurdurr can pretty much sponge hits from Kanga (Stoutland 2HKOs Gurdurr.) Toucannon however, OHKOs it for obvious reasons. Toucannon is unexplored and under appreciated, and deserves to be ranked higher.

 

[Crying Lightning]

I strongly disagree with non AV Corsola being useless. IMO its strongest niche is being able to:

1. Serve as a Water type in a Regenerator core with Audino and/or Tangela
and 2. Tank a hit and set up Stealth Rock while being able to pivot out and heal up.

Corsola is surprisingly very difficult to OHKO, and can almost always get up rocks while being able to pivot in and out multiple times in a game, which other rock setters cannot do as well.
252+ SpA Eelektross Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corsola: 232-276 (69.4 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corsola: 188-224 (56.2 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DO NOT rank corsola, unless someone proves its viablity through many, many replays.

With regard to the replays, Corsola is a hard mon to show viablity through replays, since its impact on the game can be subtle. Its hard to quantify/show how many games I've won at by being able to get a free switch into Skuntank or Weezing and burn them or set up Rocks, but being able to tank hits for free and heal up is incredibly useful. Corsola isn't the type of mon to carry games by itself; it's more of a cog in a machine. I don't think its worth running outside of a Regenerator core, but C- puts it at the level of things like Natu, Servine, and Wishiwashi, and I think Corsola has a more clearly defined niche than those mons.

 

[yogi]

Right I'm back to go over my opinions for the recent nominations:

Manectric c > c+/b-: agree

Now I'm unsure on how I feel about Manectric moving up two sub-ranks, but it's actually a decent Pokémon in the current metagame. With a very good speed tier, sitting at base 105, Manectric pressures many offensive and bulky offensive teams with its just about good enough movepool. Overheat and Switcheroo give it the ability to actually break cores like Ferroclef, and Choice Specs Hidden Power Grass hit reasonably hard versus Regirock and Lanturn, and does a load to both Gastrodon and Carracosta. I guess the argument could be made of "why not use Zebstrika?", and I think it's a valid one that I'll address right now. We no longer need something in that speed tier. Lycanroc and Alolan Raichu are super uncommon and, with the recent departure of Archeops, there's not really any reason to use Zebstrika over Manectric unless you're afraid of either Scarf Abomansnow or Aurorus. Overall I think both the Choice Scarf and Choice Specs versions are decent picks in the current meta, especially with Lanturn usage seeing a decline.

Leafeon b- > lower: disagree

While I don't quite think Graceclaw's post explained what Leafeon does fully, especially the part where Magmortar is considered a revenge killer, I do believe that he's overall correct. Being able to break defensive cores like Weezing + Hitmonchan, Ferroseed + Clefairy, etc. is actually a sort after niche in the current meta, which is leaning towards more balance-oriented builds again. Saying that it struggles with almost every high-ranking Pokémon is far from the true as the Z- Double Edge set or even the Bloom Doom set deals with or severely dents checks like Skuntank, Gurdurr, and Togedemaru. Like previously mentioned in a post further up, it actually has very good physical bulk meaning that priority isn't a reliable way of dealing with it, especially from the likes of Hitmonchan, Kangaskhan, Spiritomb, and Skuntank. All in all I believe Leafeon is fine where it is, as it creates a niche for itself right now.

Oricorio-G a+ > lower: hard disagree

It's no surprise that both the Choice Scarf and Offensive versions struggle right now, and if they were the only sets then I'd probably agree that is should drop, but they aren't. Bulky Sensu has been picking up hype thanks to HJAD and dibs recently for its ability to not only put extreme pressure on standard Pursuit trappers, namely Skuntank and Spiritomb, but also break stall teams with absolute ease. Acting as a semi-reliable spinblocker compared to the other two sets also means that it can freely come in on Assault Vest Hitmonchan without being forced into a 50/50 and Roost off the damage. Bulky wincons are very good right now, and with Taunt Oricorio-G beats previous counters like Calm Mind Clefairy. This Pokémon shouldn't drop, and if you believe it should I doubt you've faced Bulky Oricorio-G.

 

[gz]

Toucannon C- > C+
Losing Archeops meant many things for the meta, and one of them is allowing Toucannon to strive easier. Another meta change that helped it out was Magmortar’s ban which helped grass types like Ferroseed and Tangela gain usage. I believe it should be ranked for its niche in web teams.

I have been using this set.

Toucannon @ Flyium-Z
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bullet Seed
- Return
- Swords Dance

A +2 Toucannon OHKOs anything that isn’t Regirock, Probopass, or Aggron and can sweep balance teams with either none of the mons I mentioned above, or they are weakened all on its own. It also has a great synergy with other hard hitters like Kingler, and Primeape. It’s immunity to all hazards except Rocks is valuable on web teams and one of the reasons I nommed it for.

Here is several calcs that showcase Toucannon’s wallbreaking potential

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 369-435 (126.8 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 399-469 (119.4 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 399-471 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 379-447 (101.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 40 HP / 220 Def Lanturn: 358-423 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 373-439 (108.4 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togedemaru: 228-268 (84.1 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The afromentioned Probopass and Regirock can still be dealt with depending on the situation on hand.

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 190-225 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Note that Probopass doesn’t OHKO it unless it is carrying Power Gem + rocks.)

+2 252 Atk Toucannon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 250-300 (68.6 - 82.4%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery (Regirock has no reliable recovery, so rocks and any form of chip damage should turn the tables for Toucan Sam and Regirock.)

Now I know this question is on everyone’s mind while reading this.

Q: Does it really have a niche as a Normal Type Wallbreaker when we have Stoutland and Kangaskhan that already do the job nicely with a higher speed tier?

A: While Stoutland and Kangaskhan are surperior with their higher bulk and speed and not to mention they have a better matchup against Aggron and Probopass, Toucannon does exceptionally better against Ferroseed, Regirock, and fighting types as a whole. Let me explain. Ferroseed is one of the best balance mons in the tier and so is Regirock. They forces Kangaskhan to run Fire Punch, or Earthquake But if Kanga runs Fire Punch, it loses the opportunity to deal a decent chuck of damage to Regirock, and Earthquake is a 4HKO. Stoutland’s Superpower is a 2HKO on Regirock, but afterwards it takes two more hits to take it out. Ferroseed is 2HKOd by it regardless of the attack drop. But then it takes chip damage. That sounds good enough, but players can take advantage of the stat drops and swap into something that can

A) Simpily force it out.

B) Set up on its face.

C) Gain more momentum on it.

The band set itself is also prediction reliant. Predict correctly, or put yourself in a desirable yet common position. (Also Stoutland may leave because NU is in love with it). Toucannon can beat these two (Regirock if you take chip damage into consideration) without the need of prediction. Kangaskhan and Stoutland are Gurdurr food. They hate taking Drain Punch and Mach Punch and Gurdurr can pretty much sponge hits from Kanga (Stoutland 2HKOs Gurdurr.) Toucannon however, OHKOs it for obvious reasons. Toucannon is unexplored and under appreciated, and deserves to be ranked higher.

I've been using Toucannon myself recently and I personally agree with a rise to C+. Having used a variety of sets I can confidently say that the choice band set is arguably the best set at the moment.

Toucannon @ Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Frustration

With this set you can break common balance cores like FerroClef mindlessly with Brave Bird, and in general there are not a lot of Pokemon that want to switchin into a cb Brave Bird. Common flying resists like Lanturn and Eelektross get blown away by it and rock types like Regirock get 2hkod by Bullet Seed, which is surprisingly spamable in the current meta. Of course this mon has drawbacks, like lacking bulk, no defensive utility and the rock weakness, but I still believe it has a decent niche right now and is a viable option over other breakers like Stoutland, just because of the lacking physical flying resists.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Toucannon Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 192-226 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Toucannon Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 183-216 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Toucannon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 210-250 (57.6 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[TTK]

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corsola: 188-224 (56.2 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Specs Mane ohkos after rocks and rn I think Specs Mane is better than Scarf but just to counteract your point that Corsola isn't that hard to ohko and when you're giving calcs with mons with decent Special Attack and not giving calcs on the physical side, doesn't really help your point. Corsola is already quite an unviable mon and despite the fact that I have not used it, I dont think it should be ranked.

You say that it should be C- in the ranks of Natu and Wishiwashi but these mons have a decent niche that stops them from being unranked. Wishiwashi is a monster under TR utilising Specs just dealing lots of damage and Natu being able to bounce back hazards is a decent enough niche to put it on the VR despite its not-the-best typing and stats.

Corsola's niche is not "more clearly defined" than them in the slightest. Corsola just sets up Stealth Rock and tanks resisted hits. The only thing it can tank. Being checked by every Fighting-type in the tier isn't nice whatsoever and even though there are a lot of SR setters (Aggron, Probopass Regirock) weak to Fighting, they outclass Corsola really badly, having better stats overall and not being overly passive. These mons can freely switch in on Skuntank and check it, just like Corsola is claimed to do so. I just seriously don't see the point of using Corsola. Maybe give it D and not C-.

Other noms:
Roselia drop Agree.
Metang drop Agree.
Leafeon drop Disagree.