Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Scolipede from C- -> C

Sweeper

It's ability to outspeed 99% of pokemon after 1 turn and run swords dance sets allows it to be one of the better physical sweepers in the tier, especially since it is actually able to beat lando t. It's main goal as a sweeper is to find a pokemon to switch in, and once it is in you can simply use swords dance and become a +2 atk +1 spe in a single turn. Even with an average atk stat, it is still able to pull of sweeps. There are a decent amount of mons that it can easily switch in on such as tapu bulu and Chansey, and there a large amount of pokemon that it can switch into if you read a move such as toxic or a hazard. Not that many pokemon can ohko Scolipede anyway, so if one of your pokemon end up dying you can switch in scolipede and end up setting up right infront of the opponent. The only real walls to this mon are celesteela and skarmory, though they only really work if scoli has already used its z move.

Scolipede @ Waterium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 169-199 (64.7 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 381-448 (108.2 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (allows user to reach +3 and then ohko ferro, at this point only priority will be stopping scoli)
+1 252 Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Landorus-Therian: 482-568 (151 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Adamant doesn't even need to use Z move if stealth rocks are up)
244 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 195-229 (74.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (landorus t does not work as a switch in at all)
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 330-389 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (If using adamant can easily do a huge amount of damage)
0 SpA Celesteela Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 234-276 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Scolipede can potentially even reach +4 atk against celesteela and at that point you can kill it)
+4 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 368-433 (92.6 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+4 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 296-349 (88.8 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (can't even ohko which allows scoli to reach +4, and a decent amount of skarms run more Spdef)

Spikes Setter

Scolipede is one of the best lead spike setters. If holding sash it is pretty much guaranteed to get 2 layers spikes, and if you run a 1/2 half berry it can be incredibly annoying to kill which allows it to potentially get 3 layers of spikes. It has a large selection of moves such as Endeavor, toxic, and toxic spikes which is great against teams lacking poison types

Scolipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor
- Megahorn

Scolipede @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Megahorn

Most of the defensive calcs from before apply here

Other uses include absorbing t spikes, annoying chansey, and being a decent revenge killer
Some of this stuff is just plain wrong and unsupported. Maybe if you can get some replays and make legitimate points, I would agree, but until then...This post just lacks any factual base and has random calcs. Also this:
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (can't even ohko which allows scoli to reach +4, and a decent amount of skarms run more Spdef)
first off, what the hell does this contradictory nonsense mean? like you said it doesn't ohko, but the calc clearly says:
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
like seriously, get your facts straight please for the sake of anyone on this VR.

Anyways, the defensive calcs shouldn't matter anyways, as you're usually sashed and live everything (barring multi-hit moves like shuriken), which is 2 free layers of spikes.
 

Colonel M

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Dont give Finch too much credit he still has some random fuck named Colonel M in the list of moderators.
161805

Never heard of that clown.

Anyway continuing on the Ted Talk:

Tapu Lele to A+ - as Omari P can attest Psychic Terrain is broken very good. Right now Lele is showing a major presence in SPL and has been threatening with Z sets and Choice sets. While Celesteela and AV Magearna are still headaches (Jirachi too), Lele has still been very strong and ripping apart through teams that don't have as effective of a Steel-type (Tran and Ferro are okay but they have to be really careful of Focus Blast). Even Celesteela has to be careful because it cant take repeated Specs Psyshocks if its SpD. I think it's quite defining in the tier right now - a bit more than Bulu for sure and Bulu recently dropped to A. Being an enabler for Mega Zam, though the core is kind of rocky at times, is nothing to shrug at. I'm sure others could explain things better, but wanted to get the ball rolling for this Pokemon too.
 
I think we can all acknowledge the Thundurus-T post was bad. Let's move away from that post and focus on other Pokemon to discuss please.
Nah bro we have to go over obviously bad posts until you stop us.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with the Lele nom to A+. I think the current A+ roster are all significantly stronger and meta defining than lele is. Yes, it's true that alakazam mega psyspam cores are powerful, but it is only sometimes a partner and I simply don't think it is enough. Spdef rachi rising along with celesteela does no good for lele since hp fire does absolutely nothing to either pokemon. The speed tier is slightly too slow for it to be a monstrous threat with specs and its spA is slightly too low for it to be a monstrous threat with scarf. I do agree psychic terrain is insane for alakazam as it removes the water shuriken threat though.
 

Guard

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162162
Greninja A >>> A+

This should not come as a surprise. This nomination has been made several times already and it's honestly unfathomable if Greninja doesn't rise up again. It got ridiculous usage in SPL and has never really fell off in ladder as far as my ladder experience can tell me, even though Ash-Greninja took OU by storm. Insane balance breaker with near unmatched versatility and unpredictability but the tournament usage alone should be enough to bump this up.


162168
Tapu Koko A >>> A+

I nommed this last slate but apparently it was too early. Specs Koko is an absolute wrecking ball right now. Tangrowth usage has been decimalized ever since Zygarde's au revoir and combined with Bulu's tendency to run Band nowadays, Specs Koko's renaissance is a fact. Aside from Ferrothorn and Amoongus, there isn't much that can switch into Koko and somewhat keep up momentum for you due to Volt Switch. The only thing keeping Koko in check right now is the fact that it needs prediction to excel.

162167
Kyurem-Black A- >>> A

With Koko's rise, KyuB rises too. Phenomenal wall breaker with unwallable coverage that shreds current defensive cores into pieces (Pex, Steela, Ferro, Zapdos, Washtom, Tran and the likes). It feels weirdly out of place alongside its rankmates so I though it was about time to propose a rise.

162172
Gyarados B+ >>> B

I think we can all agree HO doesn't need regular Gyarados' grass-luring skills anymore. The Z-spot has enough competition as is and Blacephalon and Kommo-o both offer a lot more than Gyarados at the moment.
 
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Scizor should really go down to at least B+. Heatran's rise in usage really hurts him as well as Specs Lele being super popular. Psychic Terrain makes it really hard for it to do it's job effectively. It puts it in a situation where it must be used with it's own Terrain setter to properly function. With Koko, it basically gains nothing outside of getting rid of Psychic Terrain and being able to switch into sleep inducing moves. Grassy Terrain is great but it adds an extra fire weakness and the type coverage is terrible.
 
Scizor should really go down to at least B+. Heatran's rise in usage really hurts him as well as Specs Lele being super popular. Psychic Terrain makes it really hard for it to do it's job effectively. It puts it in a situation where it must be used with it's own Terrain setter to properly function. With Koko, it basically gains nothing outside of getting rid of Psychic Terrain and being able to switch into sleep inducing moves. Grassy Terrain is great but it adds an extra fire weakness and the type coverage is terrible.
I think that the increased defensive viability of Magnezone, Pex, and Celesteela are all causes for Scizor to drop too. Lele is important, but it can't really switch in for fear of sets that run U-Turn and Knock Off to keep the pressure off. But between those factors and the rise of Heatran, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Garchomp, Zapdos, Zard X/Y, and Skarmory make M-Scizor way less appealing. It doesn't check a whole lot of mons anymore and needs more support to sweep now, so it should probably drop.
 
Scizor should really go down to at least B+. Heatran's rise in usage really hurts him as well as Specs Lele being super popular. Psychic Terrain makes it really hard for it to do it's job effectively. It puts it in a situation where it must be used with it's own Terrain setter to properly function. With Koko, it basically gains nothing outside of getting rid of Psychic Terrain and being able to switch into sleep inducing moves. Grassy Terrain is great but it adds an extra fire weakness and the type coverage is terrible.
I agree with a Scizor drop. There are no meta trends favoring it. The post Zygarde meta doesn't really give much breathing room for it. It can work, but I feel like it's just hard walled by way too many prominent threats without checking/scaring enough on its own (it used to be able to check Zygarde and ubiquitous Spd Bulus). Rotom-W is everywhere, Celesteela is everywhere, Zapdos is everywhere (static punishes even the slightest attempt to generate momentum with poor Scizor), Heatran is everywhere, and I've seen an uptick in Volcorona use (probably owing to Fini+and Rotom-W picking up so much). (Note that Zygarde punished all this stuff). It's strictly outclassed as a physical steel breaker by Mega Mawile and SD Kart (who can punish the shit out of all the aforementioned checks to Sciz) and honestly I think it's outclassed as a U-Turn mon by Scarf Lando. It's right at home somewhere in B+ or B. The better megas will rarely do nothing in a match but there's some relatively common matchups (Celepex!) that having a Scizor feels like you're playing a 5-6. Drop.
 
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Finchinator

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Tapu Bulu,
Tapu Koko, and
Tapu Lele to all stay A.

There have been talks lately about all three of these being A+. Hell, Tapu Bulu, which I feel to be the closest to A+ of the three personally, recently was demoted from A+ to A. I personally voted for A and I stand by that vote. Regardless, I view all three of these Pokemon as solid metagame choices that you cannot go wrong with on balance or even bulky-offensive teams. However, I do not think any of them qualify as metagame or archetype staples outside of Tapu Koko on screens, which is more of a niche, cheesy archetype, thus not proving to be enough to warrant a bump at this high subrank as you're generally defined by your best, most common variants. I think that one of the big things that define the pretty clear line between A+ and A is that the Pokemon in A+ either are seen on a majority of a certain team archetype or are top tier threats. On the other side, the Pokemon in A are still common, but they do not necessarily have the same sense of commonality to where you almost have to try not to use them on teams. Back when SDef Bulu was the Grass type of choice, it belonged in A+ as it fit into that category, but now it's more of an aggressive offensive presence that's seen pretty often, but it isn't nearly as close to a staple as it once was. While these Pokemon are all vastly different, I find them all to fit comfortably into the A rank currently. I will break down each specifically in the remainder of this post just to outline specifics.

Tapu Bulu is obviously a great Pokemon; the Choice Banded set is perhaps the best right now and it is as close to a literal wall-breaker as you can get in SM OU. Grassy Terrain boosted Wood Hammer dents everything that is not a 4x resist (Celesteela, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Kartana, bulky Volcarona, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, and some other niche Pokemon). On top of this, it also has nice, complimentary coverage options that make the Choice Banded set a bit more than one-dimensional. Just off the top of my head, it was used successfully in multiple recent SPL games (1 and 2). It is a potent presence, undoubtedly. The thing is that while it's great, it still is quite far from staple status and you see a lot more BO teams without it than with it right now. Couple that with it downside of lacking the defensive presence of the SDef set and being on the slower side and you cannot necessarily label it as consistent offensively as pokemon like Mega Mawile in A+ or Ash Greninja in S.

There are other Tapu Bulu sets, so let's go through those, too. The offensive SD set is not seen too often, but it does a nice job assuring some form of progress in mot games depending upon the Z set. However, shaky longevity, lack of consistent usage, and causing teams to be compressed defensively are all downsides that do not make it remotely close to an A+ caliber variant, in my eyes. Finally, the classic SDef set is still around and while it isn't near its peak, it's still fine...the issue is that it's just that: fine. It's not spectacular, it's not as common as Ferrothorn, and it's not going to be anytime soon in all likelihood. Tapu Bulu is a good Pokemon, but it does not have enough to distinguish itself from A rank Pokemon while it simultaneously lacks the metagame presence to fit-in with A+ Pokemon, thus leaving it squarely in A.

Tapu Lele is a Pokemon that has not been A+ for a long while, if I recall correctly. However, there have been recent posts about it potentially getting a rise, so I want to address this topic without directly responding to those posts as I like having more general perspectives shared throughout my posts as opposed to back-and-forth, isolated discussion sparkers that lead to derailing the entire thread.

Tapu Lele is a Pokemon that a lot of people view as synonymous with descriptors like potent and dangerous, especially with regards to the increasingly common Choice Specs set. However, there is a lot of opportunity cost that comes alongside using Tapu Lele and it also provides near 0 defensively outside of the priority killing from Psychic Terrain, thus making people think twice about using it consistently, especially when checks such as Magearna, Celesteela, and Jirachi are all near their peaks currently.

The fact of the matter is that both Choice Specs and Z, mainly Fighting, sets are quite nice right now. They either force unmanageable amounts of damage or very predictable lines of counterplay, such as quick pivots to Jirachi or Celesteela, which can be taken advantage of given the right team support. However, the thing is that these counter measures still do exist and are increasingly seen. It is far from as simple as "click Psychic and your troubles will go away" or "click Calm Mind as the check comes in and then the right coverage/STAB will do away with the opposing check". Because of this, Tapu Lele need to be used in a bit more of a timely, even methodical fashion if consistently brought. There are some games where it chips the check early and then picks later on, which even can be arguably more games than not. But when it is such a burden to get in safely more than 1-2 times a game and when it still has enough consistent countermeasures, the pros simply do not outweigh the cons by enough to make it some consistent, top-tier offensive presence like the aforementioned Mega Mawile.

To add on to this, I don't think anyone views Lele as even close to a staple or even defining piece in any archetype right now. The threatening sets I mentioned and even Scarf are things to consider and use a decent amount on your balance and bulky-offensive teams, but neither will be finding their way on to more teams than not -- or even close to that. Tapu Lele is good, but not great. Tapu Lele is not as metagame defining as anything in S or A+, so it should definitely stay A rank.

The last of the trio is Tapu Koko. Honestly, I am not as high on Tapu Koko as most, so there may be a bit of negative bias here, but it seems to be rising a bit in usage since Zygarde got banned and Tangrowth fell. The thing with Tapu Koko is that it has a a great momentum generating presence, especially with the 3A+Roost Z/Magnet/Shuca set, but also with Specs. The problem is that this really is more of a luxury to use right now when options like Tornadus-Therian or Rotom-Wash provide a similar momentum-generating force, but also a lot more defensive merit. I'm aware that they are not entirely comparable, but the amount of competition there is coupled with the fact that every decent team has at least a 'check' to conventional Koko that's reliable, even if it is HP Ice which almost all are rn, leaves there little room to convince me that it should be A+.

I feel like Tapu Koko is in an awkward spot where it is a nice tempo pick against a lot of other playstyles, but it is not something you can use without a bit of team limitations and specific catering to its pros/cons. This can be said about a lot of Pokemon, even those in A+ arguably, but the thing is that the positives of Tapu Koko more stem from its indirect impacts on gameflow and perhaps scouting out of the set rather than its direct presence, thus making it really hard for anyone to persuade me that standalone Tapu Koko is anywhere near A+ rank, let alone on the fringe of it or possibly something I would vote up rn.

I do feel like Z variants have nice nuke potential, but even then it's quite awkward to time that and while it has the god-given ability to come in on Tornadus-Therian consistent, there is not much else that grants it consistent safe entry without some trade-off that could leave the entire interaction a net-neutral/negative (i.e: Toxic/TSpikes from Pex) as the game draws out. I feel like Tapu Koko is a good pick for Bulky-Offense and even balance teams with a synergetic breaker as the focus, but it is never the focus itself and it is never going to be given the direction of the metagame. Tapu Koko is like that good, supportive character in the background, but not remotely close to being the protagonist or focus. I know that's a bit of a far-fetched analogy, but in all seriousness it's nowhere near as prominent or trend-setting as the things you see ranked above it, so I fail to see much of a reason to move it up to A+.
 
Its Mr ShitOpinion here to add shit opions to some of the current noms and make some of my own.


M.Scizor A- -> B+
M.Scizor is probably my favourite mega to build around due to its usual consistency as pivot, as well as providing a win con and deterrent for most bulk boosting mons, cramming all this into 1 mon. However everythings turned against it with Zygarde gone, giving way to the rise in: Rotom-W, Heatran, Celesteela, Magnezone, Pex, Lele, Zapdos, Tank Chomp and Volcarona, M.Scizor often finds itself regulated to only providing to the defence of the team, ruining its role compression while others can still provide utility. M.Scizor seems much more at home with M.CharX and Tapu Fini with the consistency it provides to each game.


Protean Greninja A -> A+
With few reliable checks + Ash Greninjas sky high viability makes its rise as a lure for things like Toxapex, Magearna and Chansey only more brutal. Its customisability to fit on every team, and never be dead weight, and a lot of current bulky offence find it hard to wear down outside of hazards meaning this thing can sit up on base122 and rain attacks.


Jirachi B -> B+
Love this mon. I know it just rose but I think Jirachis consistency on BO can be compared easily to the likes of Fini and Gliscor, providing key resists for the team, pivoting and most importantly healing wish, which is very nice right now with the increase if status going around from Rotom-W, Amoonguss and the rare Twave Ferro, as well as allowing mons to be played more recklessly in this spike stacked meta. Only thing that really hurts its viability at the moment is its weakness to Zams Shadow Ball imo.


Zapdos B+ -> A-
Static is nice to punish the myriad of U-Turners in the tier now, from LandoT, TornT, Jirachi, M.Scizor, as well as punishing Scarf Kartana greatly, covering probably the 2 most common Scarfers. With Spikes being everywhere, as the three main spikers are as viable as ever, having spike immune defog is incredibly nice currently.


Landorus Therian Formation S -> A+
I doubt I'm going to persuade anyone to change there views, just wanted to put my thoughts out anyway, and I'm not to sure I agree with this myself but here we go: I believe Landorus to be near the middle between A+ and S currently, but leaning more so A+. With Zygardes ban, near non of the current meta trends has been to LandoTs benefit, not only gaining a few more checks, less stuff to check but also competition with some of its best sets, taking a bite out of some of its niche.

Choice Scarf
Landos most common set, and undeniably the best Scarfer in the tier, hitting hard with Earthquake, intimidate allowing it to work as a bulky-ish pivot, access hazard control in both SR and Defog and customisable coverage, allowing it to revenge what it chooses, the set is the poster child of versatile. However this is one of Landos most exploitable sets, with every move it has being easily punished by every team. U-turns Landos safest move is easily punish through Rocky Helmet. With the rise in the use of this item on Torn-T ( December Rocky Helmet 37.126%, Janurary
Rocky Helmet 59.039%) Tank Chomp + Iron barbs with the rise of Ferro usage as a grass types severly cuts into Landos longevity and ability to check mons. With more ground immunes popping up thanks to the lack of TA, Earthquake is rarely being used, with mons life Zapdos and Celesteela, which have just currently risen in usage, added onto Lando, Torn-T and Gliscor, all being hard to weaken throughout the match. Rotom-W gains the most out of this, taking little damage from most of Landos options, and can abuse through pivot, stats or Defog. Its coverage moves in Stone Edge, Hp Ice both allow common speed boosters in Magearna and Volc. While this is true of all Scarfers, Landos moves seem to suffer more than the others, and with Lando being the best Scarfer, its more on a state of Scarfers right now, and I believe this set its not worth its S ranking. TL:DR meta trends make this set more exploitable.

Z Rocks
While nothing much has changed for this defensive counter play wise, the rise of Garchomps RockZ set bites out a huge chunk of Landos niche, while being weaker, it provides a nice defensive typing, and most importantly speed. Between Lando and Garchomps speed, most have been seen rising and have the ability to revenge Lando, or force switch smacking whatever switch in hard, while Garchomp has the ability to revenge these in turn.

January Usage Rank
12 | Tapu Lele
19 | Medicham-Mega
24 | Kyurem-Black
30 | Volcarona
61 | Hydreigon
67 | Kyurem

December Usage Rank
13 | Tapu Lele
24 | Medicham-Mega
48 | Kyurem-Black
51 | Volcarona
72 | Hydreigon
75 | Kyurem

(This obviosuly doesn't invalidate it in the slightest, its still an amazing set and better than Garchomps but chomp has taken some of its niche, and the rise of the above also hurt it)

Defensive
Not gonna lie, havn't seen a defensive Lando in a hot minute. Its really nice along side Magearna and other to form a defensive core, however its by no means as prevalent or relevant as it used to, with Rockers such as Ferro, Tank Chomp and Gliscor all being just as viable holding different niches to them selves.

While I am under selling LandoT a lot to get my point across, I still believe it to only be inbetween A+ and S, more leaning more towards the very top of A+, with similar consistency of the defensive capabilities of Pex, and vast utility of Ferro. Please don't kill me for this D':
 
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Torn T- A+ to A.

Rotom W is rising and still Zap is around who keeps being nominated to rise. Only top tier Pokemon that has to rely on a Missicane in many instances, next worse is MS Heatran. Lets in Magerna (rising) which is always very bad. Also lets in Mawile which is just as bad. Seeing more Stone Edge on Chomp/LandoT/CB Bulu and ZGiga Kart to get through this and Zap. Often dies to get Defog off. Offensively it cant run everything but I think the taunt+3 attacks is good, generally has to forgo an important Knock or Uturn though. I'd rather face this than a Lele/Gren/Celestela which are below it.

Heatran S>A+.

Z sets are what put it in S but generally lets in the best offensive threat in Ash Gren. Rotom W rising. Just too many mons that get off a Focus Blast and Superpower (Lele, Torn, Magerna, Bulu, Scizor) also seeing a bit more Mega Lati. Liability vs Rain which is strong atm. Strong vs stall as always but tend to see less Magma Storm than a few months ago. Offensively still very strong (but slow) but defensively has many flaws currently. Can't really lead with all the Lando/Chomps so can struggle to find ways into games.
 
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Landorus Therian Formation S -> A+
I doubt I'm going to persuade anyone to change there views, just wanted to put my thoughts out anyway, and I'm not to sure I agree with this myself but here we go: I believe Landorus to be near the middle between A+ and S currently, but leaning more so A+. With Zygardes ban, near non of the current meta trends has been to LandoTs benefit, not only gaining a few more checks, less stuff to check but also competition with some of its best sets, taking a bite out of some of its niche.

Choice Scarf
Landos most common set, and undeniably the best Scarfer in the tier, hitting hard with Earthquake, intimidate allowing it to work as a bulky-ish pivot, access hazard control in both SR and Defog and customisable coverage, allowing it to revenge what it chooses, the set is the poster child of versatile. However this is one of Landos most exploitable sets, with every move it has being easily punished by every team. U-turns Landos safest move is easily punish through Rocky Helmet. With the rise in the use of this item on Torn-T ( December Rocky Helmet 37.126%, Janurary
Rocky Helmet 59.039%) Tank Chomp + Iron barbs with the rise of Ferro usage as a grass types severly cuts into Landos longevity and ability to check mons. With more ground immunes popping up thanks to the lack of TA, Earthquake is rarely being used, with mons life Zapdos and Celesteela, which have just currently risen in usage, added onto Lando, Torn-T and Gliscor, all being hard to weaken throughout the match. Rotom-W gains the most out of this, taking little damage from most of Landos options, and can abuse through pivot, stats or Defog. Its coverage moves in Stone Edge, Hp Ice both allow common speed boosters in Magearna and Volc. While this is true of all Scarfers, Landos moves seem to suffer more than the others, and with Lando being the best Scarfer, its more on a state of Scarfers right now, and I believe this set its not worth its S ranking. TL:DR meta trends make this set more exploitable.

Z Rocks
While nothing much has changed for this defensive counter play wise, the rise of Garchomps RockZ set bites out a huge chunk of Landos niche, while being weaker, it provides a nice defensive typing, and most importantly speed. Between Lando and Garchomps speed, most have been seen rising and have the ability to revenge Lando, or force switch smacking whatever switch in hard, while Garchomp has the ability to revenge these in turn.

Janurary
12 | Tapu Lele
19 | Medicham-Mega
24 | Kyurem-Black
30 | Volcarona
61 | Hydreigon
67 | Kyurem

December
13 | Tapu Lele
24 | Medicham-Mega
48 | Kyurem-Black
51 | Volcarona
72 | Hydreigon
75 | Kyurem

(This obviosuly doesn't invalidate it in the slightest, its still an amazing set just Garchomp has taken some of its niche, and the rise of the above also hurt it)

Defensive
Not gonna lie, havn't seen a defensive Lando in a hot minute. Its really nice along side Magearna and other to form a defensive core, however its by no means as prevalent or relevant as it used to, with Rockers such as Ferro, Tank Chomp and Gliscor all being just as viable holding different niches to them selves.

While I am under selling LandoT a lot to get my point across, I still believe it to only be inbetween A+ and S, more leaning more towards the very top of A+, with similar consistency of the defensive capabilities of Pex, and vast utility of Ferro. Please don't kill me for this D':
I agree with Zapdos and Jirachi but not Lando dropping, its still the king. It blanket checks too much and has too many functions it excels at. I still really like the defensive set, sure its not as good without Zygarde but it has many opportunities to come in, especially with Mawile everywhere. Its always really nice against the odd Zardx, Lopp and Drill. Intimidate is just too useful in so many instances (as is Helmet) where it can come in on stuff like Medi and Pert to help get though the stage of the game. I've seen a few SR+Defog on the same set and it really opens up what you can run with the other 5 Pokemon. Lead Z or Explosion always keeps you guessing and immediately pressures you, theres almost never a time when Lando doesnt do something. FWIW I don't think Scarf is as good as its usage but its still the other functions that make it what it is.
 

Colonel M

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I fucking hate Finch.

I might agree to disagree on Lele but I can see why you could draw that conclusion at the very least.

I'm not sure what happened in the last few posts, but there is absolutely no way in hell Lando-T nor Heatran should drop from S to A+. Both of these Pokemon are so meta defining and still very potent in their roles right now, and nothing really negative has changed for them either. As I've outlined in my Metagame post in the Metagame Thread Landorus-T just helps a lot of teams with its Scarf and Z sets. There are still other sets like Suicide Lando-T that are really good for Hyper Offense too. Meanwhile, Heatran still remains a dominant Pokemon throughout the metagame thanks to its great typing and being able to be more offensive with Z or defensive with Lava Plume and Toxic. Zygarde's disappearance has only made Heatran a lot better and I don't see it ever dropping back to A+ for a long time.
 
I was making another post, but I feel like I must respond to this one.
Tornadus-T
Rotom W is rising and still Zap is around who keeps being nominated to rise.
Although Rotom-W and Zapdos are becoming more prominent since Zygarde's departure, none of them appreciate Knock Off, especially Rotom-W, since its recovery is mainly from the pinch Berry or Leftovers or the semi-reliable recovery method Pain Split. Tornadus-T can also U-turn on them, bringing in a teammate that can either take a hit and force them out or set up with something that forces them out, like Mega Latias (or whatever has an advantageous matchup against the foe that is sent out).

Only top tier Pokemon that has to rely on a Missicane in many instances, next worse is MS Heatran.
If we go by that logic, Ash-Greninja and Magearna also have that problem with Hydro Pump and Fleur Cannon respectively. Mega Alakazam risks Focus Blast, Mega Mawile risks Play Rough, etc. These are all top-tier Pokemon, are they all dropping a rank because they rely on a move that can miss?

Lets in Magerna (rising) which is always very bad. Also lets in Mawile which is just as bad.
In a sort of way I think letting in Magearna is also a good thing because it lets you scout for its item and the set with Knock Off and Hurricane damage. AV Magearna dislikes having AV removed with Knock Off and Mawile that hasn't Mega Evolved can't really switch in since it has miserable bulk.
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 104-123 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 129-152 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
Z-Focus Blast is a clean KO on non-Mega Mawile and Z-Hurricane does like 80% minimum. Even after Mega Evolution, Mega Mawile takes over half from Z-Hurricane and Z-Focus Blast does like 72% minimum. In the recent SPL, one thing I have noticed is that players that use Mega Mawile don't risk any unnecessary damage on it because every bit of chip means it can get revenged killed more easily.

Seeing more Stone Edge on Chomp/LandoT/CB Bulu and ZGiga Kart to get through this and Zap.
I cannot disagree with this, seeing this is actually true, but Tornadus-T is still a very nice buffer against these Pokemon: It outspeeds Garchomp and does 85.7 - 101.3% to offensive Garchomp with Supersonic Skystrike, or can Taunt it to prevent Stealth Rock, or even risk haxing it with Hurricane confusion. Lando-T clicks Stone Edge: bad thing because you lose your Tornadus-T if it hits, but Rocky Helmet (or anything that has bulk invested) can live from max, and it can force it out when you go out into something that takes advantage of Lando-T locked into Stone Edge. Choice Band Bulu and Normalium Z Kartana are definitely threats, but you are still pressuring them offensively, since, unlike Zapdos, you outspeed them.

Often dies to get Defog off.
Ok this is really based on your matchup and how you decide to bring it in to Defog so I'm not gonna argue with this point.

Offensively it cant run everything but I think the taunt+3 attacks is good, generally has to forgo an important Knock or Uturn though.
"Offensively it can't run everything". How many times have you wished you could run a more accurate Water-type STAB move on Ash-Greninja; Thunderbolt on Lele for Celesteela or HP Fire for Ferrothorn after you missed Focus Blast; Thunderbolt on Magearna just for Toxapex because you're Focus + Fleur; and a bunch of other stuff you wished you had an extra move for? A lot of Pokemon have 4mss, that doesn't necessarily make them bad: a bunch of Pokemon I just listed are top-tier threats. Tornadus-T has good versatility, being able to lure Tyranitar and Heatran (doesn't guarantee OHKO AV Ttar even if you Knock Off the turn it switches in and SpDef Heatran, but you still weaken it a lot) with Z-Focus Blast, nuke fat things with Z-Hurricane, blanket check a bunch of physical attackers with the bulky set, or even be a big threat with LO / Metronome under Rain. Nothing you use is without an opportunity cost.

I'd rather face this than a Lele/Gren/Celestela which are below it.
Why the hell are you comparing Tornadus-T with these Pokemon? They do quite different things, and none of them are Defog users.


Heatran
Z sets are what put it in S but generally lets in the best offensive threat in Ash Gren. Rotom W rising.
Ok so because it invites in Ash-Greninja means it's not fit for S? You already said it: the Z-Move set is what makes it S. This mon is a big fucking threat and is not dropping just because a bunch of Water-types can switch into it. Both dislike taking Magma Storm + chip damage, especially Ash-Greninja, since you have no recovery whatsoever, and Rotom-Wash gets messed up by Toxic. You can even set up rocks when they switch in, and then you could even use this opportunity to scout if Rotom-W has Defog.

Just too many mons that get off a Focus Blast and Superpower (Lele, Torn, Magerna, Bulu, Scizor) also seeing a bit more Mega Lati.
These Pokemon have been running Focus Blast and Superpower for a very long time, even when Zygarde was around. iirc Heatran was nominated when Zygarde was around (like July/August?). Mega Latias is more common, and? Calm Mind sets can't really set up in front of Heatran with Taunt, and unless you run Reflect Type you're crippled by Toxic. Toxic really affects Mega Latias' ability to blanket check stuff and affects its longevity. Mega Latias has risen in the ranks because it can check Heatran, but does that really mean it's enough to make Heatran fall?

Liability vs Rain which is strong atm.
Ngl Rain has always been a big underrated threat. Heatran does suck against Rain, especially since Ferrothorn and Magearna are somewhat protected with Rain and Tornadus-T hits really hard.

Strong vs stall as always but tend to see less Magma Storm than a few months ago.
I don't think usage strongly reflects a Pokemon's viability, and Heatran is quite solid against Stall even with Lava Plume, since you will invite in Chansey/Toxapex after revealing no Magma Storm and give you some free setup opportunities.

Offensively still very strong (but slow) but defensively has many flaws currently.
Heatran's flaws (being weak to water/ground/fighting, low speed has been present since its release in DPP, the common presence of rain in BW, and fulfilling similar roles in XY/ORAS. You're taking a shit ton of damage from Specs Tapu Lele, but that's why you don't see much teams that don't run a more solid Tapu Lele check or stuff that can offensive check Tapu Lele. No defensive wall is without its flaws, even Chansey and Toxapex can be easily trapped with Magma Storm Heatran and Celesteela beaten by sheer force or the common Tapu Koko or Rotom-W.

Can't really lead with all the Lando/Chomps so can struggle to find ways into games.
Why the fuck are you leading with Heatran anyways.
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uwu Sith Lord uwu sniped me but ok. Horrible Greatest name btw
 
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I was making another post, but I feel like I must respond to this one.
Tornadus-T

Although Rotom-W and Zapdos are becoming more prominent since Zygarde's departure, none of them appreciate Knock Off, especially Rotom-W, since its recovery is mainly from the pinch Berry or Leftovers or the semi-reliable recovery method Pain Split. Tornadus-T can also U-turn on them, bringing in a teammate that can either take a hit and force them out or set up with something that forces them out, like Mega Latias (or whatever has an advantageous matchup against the foe that is sent out).


If we go by that logic, Ash-Greninja and Magearna also have that problem with Hydro Pump and Fleur Cannon respectively. Mega Alakazam risks Focus Blast, Mega Mawile risks Play Rough, etc. These are all top-tier Pokemon, are they all dropping a rank because they rely on a move that can miss?


In a sort of way I think letting in Magearna is also a good thing because it lets you scout for its item and the set with Knock Off and Hurricane damage. AV Magearna dislikes having AV removed with Knock Off and Mawile that hasn't Mega Evolved can't really switch in since it has miserable bulk.
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 104-123 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 129-152 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
Z-Focus Blast is a clean KO on non-Mega Mawile and Z-Hurricane does like 80% minimum. Even after Mega Evolution, Mega Mawile takes over half from Z-Hurricane and Z-Focus Blast does like 72% minimum. In the recent SPL, one thing I have noticed is that players that use Mega Mawile don't risk any unnecessary damage on it because every bit of chip means it can get revenged killed more easily.


I cannot disagree with this, seeing this is actually true, but Tornadus-T is still a very nice buffer against these Pokemon: It outspeeds Garchomp and does 85.7 - 101.3% to offensive Garchomp with Supersonic Skystrike, or can Taunt it to prevent Stealth Rock, or even risk haxing it with Hurricane confusion. Lando-T clicks Stone Edge: bad thing because you lose your Tornadus-T if it hits, but Rocky Helmet (or anything that has bulk invested) can live from max, and it can force it out when you go out into something that takes advantage of Lando-T locked into Stone Edge. Choice Band Bulu and Normalium Z Kartana are definitely threats, but you are still pressuring them offensively, since, unlike Zapdos, you outspeed them.


Ok this is really based on your matchup and how you decide to bring it in to Defog so I'm not gonna argue with this point.


"Offensively it can't run everything". How many times have you wished you could run a more accurate Water-type STAB move on Ash-Greninja; Thunderbolt on Lele for Celesteela or HP Fire for Ferrothorn after you missed Focus Blast; Thunderbolt on Magearna just for Toxapex because you're Focus + Fleur; and a bunch of other stuff you wished you had an extra move for? A lot of Pokemon have 4mss, that doesn't necessarily make them bad: a bunch of Pokemon I just listed are top-tier threats. Tornadus-T has good versatility, being able to lure Tyranitar and Heatran (doesn't guarantee OHKO AV Ttar even if you Knock Off the turn it switches in and SpDef Heatran, but you still weaken it a lot) with Z-Focus Blast, nuke fat things with Z-Hurricane, blanket check a bunch of physical attackers with the bulky set, or even be a big threat with LO / Metronome under Rain. Nothing you use is without an opportunity cost.


Why the hell are you comparing Tornadus-T with these Pokemon? They do quite different things, and none of them are Defog users.


Heatran

Ok so because it invites in Ash-Greninja means it's not fit for S? You already said it: the Z-Move set is what makes it S. This mon is a big fucking threat and is not dropping just because a bunch of Water-types can switch into it. Both dislike taking Magma Storm + chip damage, especially Ash-Greninja, since you have no recovery whatsoever, and Rotom-Wash gets messed up by Toxic. You can even set up rocks when they switch in, and then you could even use this opportunity to scout if Rotom-W has Defog.


These Pokemon have been running Focus Blast and Superpower for a very long time, even when Zygarde was around. iirc Heatran was nominated when Zygarde was around (like July/August?). Mega Latias is more common, and? Calm Mind sets can't really set up in front of Heatran with Taunt, and unless you run Reflect Type you're crippled by Toxic. Toxic really affects Mega Latias' ability to blanket check stuff and affects its longevity. Mega Latias has risen in the ranks because it can check Heatran, but does that really mean it's enough to make Heatran fall?


Ngl Rain has always been a big underrated threat. Heatran does suck against Rain, especially since Ferrothorn and Magearna are somewhat protected with Rain and Tornadus-T hits really hard.


I don't think usage strongly reflects a Pokemon's viability, and Heatran is quite solid against Stall even with Lava Plume, since you will invite in Chansey/Toxapex after revealing no Magma Storm and give you some free setup opportunities.


Heatran's flaws (being weak to water/ground/fighting, low speed has been present since its release in DPP, the common presence of rain in BW, and fulfilling similar roles in XY/ORAS. You're taking a shit ton of damage from Specs Tapu Lele, but that's why you don't see much teams that don't run a more solid Tapu Lele check or stuff that can offensive check Tapu Lele. No defensive wall is without its flaws, even Chansey and Toxapex can be easily trapped with Magma Storm Heatran and Celesteela beaten by sheer force or the common Tapu Koko or Rotom-W.


Why the fuck are you leading with Heatran anyways.
View attachment 162339


uwu Sith Lord uwu sniped me but ok. Horrible name btw
1. Knock off is Rotom/Zap momentum (and risking Static)
2. Missicane is not the same as Hydro, you can run Surf. Its your main move unlike Mag with FB.
3. Yes Mawile cant switch in initially, but Mag is free switch in. But when you see a Mawile, do you want to go straight for the ZFlying move (when your opponent probably has another steel or Electric) or risk missicane, or let it in on a Defog. Uturn is nice if you have momentum.
4/5. good
6. "How many times have you wished you could run a more accurate Water-type STAB move on Ash-Greninja" Ash Gren does just fine without Hydro, we've all seen it plenty of times. Hydro miss can be a win con for the opponent in the same way it can be for that extra damage for you.
7. Im just saying I believe these perform better than Torn

On Heatran, the lead argument was a stretch I give you that. With that highlighhted quote, its the case for most things in this high paced meta (double switching), and the fact that its more apparent with Heatran just makes it harder for it to do it job. I see this as consistency issues, where something like Lando does what it does much more consistently. Have a nice day
 
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Heatran is so far above the rest of the metagame right now if you wanted to move the rest of S tier to S- it would be reasonable. With zygarde gone it lost its most useable reliable switchin. Sure rotom-w has surged back with a vengeance, but the washing machine is nowhere close to the threat the sand snake was. Basically nothing likes switching into magma storm due to the extra chip, and toxic gimps many of these mons (mega lati the aforementioned rotom-w). The hilarious fact is the best heatran switch in is air balloon heatran which is only temproary anyways, unless you use it exclusively as a heatran switchin. In zygarde meta, felt like people increasingly pigeon-holed heatran into its very potent z-trapper set, but since then people have been exploring a variety of sets with spec. def sets coming back strong. Heatran is the king of the post zygarde meta. End rant.

Edit: To clarify this was in response to the ridiculous suggestion to drop Heatran to A+, not to make a nom for heatran to be raised higher. Although I personally think Heatran is easily the best mon in the meta, others may disagree and the other S-tier mons have a lot going for them.
 
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Colonel M

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I also dont get some of the Tornadus-T drop arguments either. Knock Off was mentioned as free momentum for Rotom-W, which isn't really true. Rotom-W really likes its item because it allows Rotom-W to take a little extra abuse and repeatedly switch into threats like SpD Heatran. Losing its berry or Leftovers means Rotom-W also has a harder time reliably checking said Tornadus-T too. That isn't to say Rotom-W isn't a good check to Torn-T and that the entire statement presented has some evidence of truth, the reality of it all is something to consider too. A lot of teams that lack a Flying-resist (and trust me a lot of these exist still - see Empo's team last week) are terrified if Torn-T does find a way to come out freely because the sheer threat of Hurricane hitting is enough for teams to fold or crumble. And while it's true Hurricane does have mediocre accuracy, the chance of confusion when it does hit is hard to ignore as well.

Personally I disagree with Torn-T to A. While certainly not the strongest, it can be damning for some teams to face and still is very meta defining at this time. Versatility with Rocky Helmet or Offensive with great utility options just makes it really hard to drop. Even though some trends like Zapdos suck for it, it still does some damage to teams in some way or another eventually and still is a great Defogger in the tier too. I can definitely see why arguments for A could exist for it, I don't think the current ones really persuade me towards that alignment.
 
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Just a quick observation, but I find A+ too high for Alakazam. oftentimes, it's just a free invitation for Magearna to come in and shift gear up, which then proceeds to clean up the rest of the team. it also doesn't help that it is one of the hardest threats to prep for. even against a simple AV variant, with the standard core of Lando + Mage, it just provides free momentum for the opposing team.

if we look at SPL, we can see that its usage is trending downwards, with many favoring the eon twins instead as the psychic mega of choice. Latios can actually chip it with EQ, whereas CM Latias can 1v1 some variants of it.

Edit: recently have been resorting to 3 Attacks + Taunt Zam which is quite decent.
 
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I'm on the fence about Torn-T going down to A:

On one hand certain opponents like Bulu and Tangrowth have become less popular whille mons like Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Tapu Koko have improved. The mons Torn-T checks like Landorus-T have started to run Stone Edge consistently, or Kartana might run Breakneck Blitz, or Bulu might be rocking a CB and Stone Edge. Other annoyances like Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, M-Mawile, Magearna, and Jirachi are decently common and can all punish Torn-T in their own ways if it lets them in for free or lacks the right moves to punish them. And that's not to get started on Z-Heatran, who has improved and directly fucks with every mainstream Torn set except Z-Fight. This is a natural case of Torn-T's checks getting more viable independently, and it should mean that Torn-T gets pushed down.

But on the other hand this thing is so versatile and so useful that I can see it adapting to the tier's changes or rising above them and still being a solid utility teammate. It offers so much support while needing so little support that I can see why it's stayed in A for so long. Not to mention that its offensive sets are as varied and useful as any in the current meta, with surprises like Z-Fighting popping up to blast would-be checks. By running Toxic or Taunt it can effectively annoy Zapdos, Rotom-W, and other problematic walls and by running offensive moves it can avoid getting abused by its checks. And because it does check Lando, Bulu, Kartana, and Tangrowth so well, I'm reticent to say it should drop just yet. My vote is to give it a few more weeks and it'll be more apparent where it should go.
 
Just a quick observation, but I find A+ too high for Alakazam. oftentimes, it's just a free invitation for Magearna to come in and shift gear up, which then proceeds to clean up the rest of the team. it also doesn't help that it is one of the hardest threats to prep for. even against a simple AV variant, with the standard core of Lando + Mage, it just provides free momentum for the opposing team.

if we look at SPL, we can see that its usage is trending downwards, with many favoring the eon twins instead as the psychic mega of choice. Latios can actually chip it with EQ, whereas CM Latias can 1v1 some variants of it.

Edit: recently have been resorting to 3 Attacks + Taunt Zam which is quite decent.
I'm going to have to disagree as even though Mag and Rachi are on the rise which hurts Zam, the rise of Zapdos and to an extent Rotom discourages Lopunny use which is the main reason why Zam so often ran timid, this is allowing Modest Zam to reenter the spotlight.
 

Srn

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I'm going to have to disagree as even though Mag and Rachi are on the rise which hurts Zam, the rise of Zapdos and to an extent Rotom discourages Lopunny use which is the main reason why Zam so often ran timid, this is allowing Modest Zam to reenter the spotlight.
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Not sure I follow chief

agree with status quo on most other stuff, but I'd also consider kyu-b and tapu fini switching places.
 

Sayuze

Banned deucer.
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A- to B+: i was just glancing through the S/A tiers and i disagree with ttar being here, so here's my reasoning on why it should drop:

first of all, tyranitar (not mega), is probably outclassed in terms of viability by all the pokemon in the A- tier right now. in my opinion, i feel that all the other pokemon in the A- tier are gravely more potent in the metagame due to obvious reasons, and therefore tyranitar should be dropped to B+.

really, tyranitar's viable sets in the meta are AV and band, and also the niche sets such as chople/z move/rocks + pursuit + w/e. scarf tar is also a thing, but its not relevant.

let's talk about av first. tyranitar has a pretty shitty defensive typing for the most part, but this set fits on bulky offense teams as a check to stuff like magearna, tran, volc, blace, etc. the problem with it is that it really only has a list of sp. attackers that it walls, and its not an answer to stuff like ash gren, lele, and a bunch of other shit that fills up the metagame. pair that with the fact that it is prone to hazards and tspikes, really being not effective at all on checking shit like reuniclus, and even magearna can take advantage of this by firing hits to chip it when its healthy, and then just setting up and sweeping when tar is low from hazards and w/e. i've never been a fan of av; i don't think it's a terrible mon, just not suited for A- rn.

on to CB: when zygarde initially got banned, and with it being the premier rock resist in the tier, i really expected (and wanted) to see more band tar usage. but it's just not the same as it was in oras, with other mons just outclassing it as a wallbreaker, namely mawile. the addition of pex in the tier is also something, as tspikes and one-time scald fishes are annoyances for it. sure pursuit trapping is great and edge trucks a lot, but again i dont think it's fit at A-.

don't really feel the need to go into any other tyranitar sets. niche shit like chople ttar are seeing a small amount of usage in tours with some success, but CB and AV are the predominant sets here.

with all this in mind, i believe (regular) tyranitar deserves a drop to B+. with it being outclassed by really all of the A- group, being an unreliable check and also being outclassed by other wallbreakers in the tier making it not as good, i think deserves a drop.
 
Heatran S>A+.

Z sets are what put it in S but generally lets in the best offensive threat in Ash Gren. Rotom W rising. Just too many mons that get off a Focus Blast and Superpower (Lele, Torn, Magerna, Bulu, Scizor) also seeing a bit more Mega Lati. Liability vs Rain which is strong atm. Strong vs stall as always but tend to see less Magma Storm than a few months ago. Offensively still very strong (but slow) but defensively has many flaws currently. Can't really lead with all the Lando/Chomps so can struggle to find ways into games.
Umm... no. Just no. Heatran isn't even remotely close to being anything short of the best thing in this tier. It's not the best thing in the tier by a huge margin or anything, but it's definitely worthy of being in S. Zygarde's ban on its own helps Heatran infinitely more than any of the other trends that ended up arising as a result of Zygarde's ban because Zygarde bodybagged Heatran that badly. It still has a ludicrous matchup against Stall which in and of itself is incredibly favorable. Its Z-move sets will still eat something's ass (and Grassium is still a thing so if Rotom-W becomes that much of an issue it can just start running that to lure and clap its cheeks). While many mons run Fighting coverage, not one of them can switch into it. Heatran outpaces and pretty handily demolishes Magearna, Bulu, and Scizor and neither Torn nor Lele wants to risk switching in on it because of how hard Z-move variants hit. While Mega Latias and Garchomp are definitely trends that go against Heatran, they don't hinder it enough for it to not be amazing at compressing a trillion different roles at once and being good at all of them. Incredible defensive typing with some amazing resistances and immunities? Check. Considerable offensive presence with an effective movepool at picking and choosing its checks and counters? Check. A trapping move, Taunt, and coverage to break past Toxapex? Check. Access to Stealth Rock and the ability to pressure almost all means of removing it? Check.

I'm sorry, but Heatran isn't even remotely close to being A+ material. This thing is very good and honestly just got a little bit better recently. It deserves the incredibly high ranking it has.
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Kyurem-Black A- >>> A

With Koko's rise, KyuB rises too. Phenomenal wall breaker with unwallable coverage that shreds current defensive cores into pieces (Pex, Steela, Ferro, Zapdos, Washtom, Tran and the likes). It feels weirdly out of place alongside its rankmates so I though it was about time to propose a rise.
I completely agree with this nomination. Kyu-B appreciates such a wide array of the current metagame trends, especially with the return of CelePex as a crazy good defensive core, and one of its best partners also preys on CelePex quite nicely and is also on the rise (though I'm not sure if I agree with Koko to A+; it's good but I'm not sure if I'd consider it that good again yet). Kyu-B doesn't need to pick and choose any counters because nothing counters it. Kyu-B should rise to A.

I was making another post, but I feel like I must respond to this one.
Tornadus-T
Big quote so I'm gonna cut it short but I'm also a firm believer that Torn-T shouldn't really drop anytime soon. Still a very good Defogger. Still hits like a truck. Fightinium Z sets are pretty fuego. Knock Off shits on most of the things that check it and scouts for Z-move variants of the other things that check it and Regenerator is still godlike both for offensively-oriented and defensively-inclined sets. Keep it in A+ please.


Also gonna live and die by Greninja to A+ even though I posted it earlier. It's physically impossible for that mon to be shit.
 
I’d seriously like to know what Mega Manectric is doing in the VR. I cannot think of a single thing it does that Tapu Koko doesn’t do better. Granted, this is already shown in it being where it is, but I believe it should be at C- or UR.

In my two years of playing OU on and off, I’ve probabaly seen this thing ONCE because whoever was using it despises the Tapus. Koko generally does a better job because it has a secondary type, item slot, and Electric Terrain (usually) to amplify its power to around Manectric’s. Manectric, on the other hand, takes up a Mega slot and is incredibly predictable, only really getting a small handful of usable moves that can barely put together a set. Koko opposes this by having several usable sets (some more so that others), only lacking the Fire coverage that Manectric has that’s useful for getting past Steel types, a few of which Koko blows back with Thunderbolt anyways (Celesteela, Skarmory, Scizor).

In short, I firmly believe that Mega Manectric should drop from C to C- or be entierly unranked if it is seen fit.
 
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