Also just noticed that neither Latias nor Latios are on the list. Think you should be more concerned about those mons than something that would rank in E-tier.
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Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
I wouldn't mind writing it. I think it adds some value insofar as an analysis would allow it to be added to the viability rankings and thus make this list a comprehensive one, which it ought to be. As the OP states,
I think it's pretty clear that this section is meant to be for Pokemon that are unviable in the Ubers metagame, but are Ubers by tiering. How exactly does Zygarde-50% not fit this bill?
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TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
Neither Latias nor Latios are Ubers by tiering, and are therefore not obligated to have analyses.
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I don't even know why this is even an argument. When Zygarde-Complete was banned from OU, it was essentially just banning the ability, but now that Zygarde is banned from OU in its entirety, it's pretty much the same case as Zygarde being reunited (and banned) as a whole. Acknowledging Aura Break Zygarde's existence now is about as pointless as giving Blaze Blaziken a second glance.
Like if you really want to emphasize it that badly, literally all you'd have to do is mention Aura Break Zygarde in the current analysis's Other Options section, along the lines of "Aura Break is another ability that Zygarde has but why bother lmao"
Like if you really want to emphasize it that badly, literally all you'd have to do is mention Aura Break Zygarde in the current analysis's Other Options section, along the lines of "Aura Break is another ability that Zygarde has but why bother lmao"
"Zygarde-C" is changed to simply say "Zygarde" to avoid further confusion - see the above post for the jist of it. The dex pages are being discussed elsewhere, but we do not currently intend for the 50% forme to receive its own analysis or VR ranking as it doesn't follow much logic.
Expect a VR update post UPL.
Expect a VR update post UPL.
Does Aura Break, in fact, have any conceivable niche over Power Construct? Not the kind of thing that would make it actually viable, but more in a "Deoxys-N survives Shadow Sneak from Marshadow with the right set" kinda way.
The only ones I can think of are as a check to Geomancy Xerneas (with full Sp Def investment and a Roseli berry, Aura Break can 100% survive a +2 or even +3/+4 Moonblast with max investment after SR whereas Power Construct can't*, and Zygarde can proceed to Haze or status), or as some kind of defensive check to Yveltal.
*It can also reliably survive +2 with SR and 3 layers of spikes up. The only way for Xern to have a chance to KO is to have SR AND 3 Spikes AND exactly one layer of Toxic Spikes up, or to carry HP Ice which it will never do.
The only ones I can think of are as a check to Geomancy Xerneas (with full Sp Def investment and a Roseli berry, Aura Break can 100% survive a +2 or even +3/+4 Moonblast with max investment after SR whereas Power Construct can't*, and Zygarde can proceed to Haze or status), or as some kind of defensive check to Yveltal.
*It can also reliably survive +2 with SR and 3 layers of spikes up. The only way for Xern to have a chance to KO is to have SR AND 3 Spikes AND exactly one layer of Toxic Spikes up, or to carry HP Ice which it will never do.
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TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
That’s a fine solution. I agree that Pokemon should not be ranked more than once for each ability; my problem was just with Zygarde-C being ranked, while Zygarde-50% wasn’t. Changing the listing altogether to Zygarde fits the goal, and is actually the optimal, most consistent solution, so thanks for the fix, and looking forward to the new post-UPL VR update!
Scizor should definitely be demoted to B or B-, the only thing it does is check Xerneas and that's not necessary since we have DM Necrozma doing it 10x better, and more. Not to mentioned Scizor is OHKO by HP fire anyway, unlike DM Necrozma.
The Dovahneer
UPL Champion
Scizor is notable for offensive momentum based playstyles which abuse U-Turn and the fact that it lures in certain mons (Primal don, Ho-Oh, etc.) which gives it a notable niche, as well as more viably running a bulky boosting Curse set due to its decent enough priority attack. Comparing it with Dusk Mane like this only considers it as a Xern check, something which overlooks these qualities and is in fact the only real way they overlap. Niche options like Pursuit are notable as well, giving it enough of a presence to not be overshadowed.
For the Zygarde 50% discussion I think something such as a footnote in the current analysis is fine, it's definitely an outlier case when it comes to VR but I think it should be included in D rank as it's technically a different form. It's not exactly clear cut either way and I'd accept it not being included, but just my two cents.
Ferro still checks spout/sub ogre with bullet seed, it deserves it's place in A-
The only thing that would make remotely sense would be to update the Zygarde's Smogon Articles so that the Complete Forme loses it's own page and is just integrated into the other formes pages (like how Ultra Necrozma or Mega Evolutions are). But that's not really VR discussion.
TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
I was going to mention this - I think we should aim for consistency when we can, especially when it takes very little effort to attain. You’re completely right, but as far as VR discussion goes, the renaming of Zygarde-C on this list to Zygarde to, in a sense, “reunite” both formes is the correct move, so props for Nayrz for that. I think integrating the analysis pages is the correct next step.
TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
The discussion isn’t about Substitute Kyogre; it’s about Water Spout. As the others have mentioned, Ferrothorn can’t be considered a counter to CM+Water Spout Kyogre when it takes over half on switch-in.
And it can't do BS if it doesn't carry a grass move, and even then it's not reliable. It's still a check to the other sets tho.
Bullet seed ferro sounds like a sub-optimal set and also isn't a switch-in... and it doesn't check ogre anymore than the power whip set does. I'll repeat myself again, ferrothorn's main niche is being able to switch-in to primal kyogre and xerneas, and both of those got to a degree compromised, making it just a spiker that loses to ho-oh.
Can we put requirements on being allowed to post in here or something or just lock the whole thing? Surely it's not just my head and I who want to be driven through a brick wall after some of these posts right?
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Bullet seed ferro is a set, I personally use it and I feel it's very good, but never mind me. I'm not good, I've only peaked ladder three times this past month. I'll take your word for it.
i think if things like goth / msab were more popular in the metagame atm id be more keen on bullet seed. theres probably still merit in covering those mus even if they are uncommon; but there’s still that cost of pwhip/gyro being better in just about every other mu for ferro.
i’m more inclined to agree with lucos tho on overall ferro viability. i think another hurtful factor for the durian is the ho-oh upswing atm. still, tho, spikes is such a broken ass move and theres always going to be ferro food mons seeing some usage. maybe the real take is looking at how the best ho-oh switch ins are commonly large ferro bait. also even if kyogre is running spout, or perhaps moreso, having ferro around to give u that little bit extra switching room could be nice for fatter builds.
i don’t think an elitist attitude is a good idea for the thread; vr is a very far cry from an exact science and it exists primarily as a tool or newer / unfamiliar players interested in the metagame. id argue the same is true for discussion on vr as well.
i’m more inclined to agree with lucos tho on overall ferro viability. i think another hurtful factor for the durian is the ho-oh upswing atm. still, tho, spikes is such a broken ass move and theres always going to be ferro food mons seeing some usage. maybe the real take is looking at how the best ho-oh switch ins are commonly large ferro bait. also even if kyogre is running spout, or perhaps moreso, having ferro around to give u that little bit extra switching room could be nice for fatter builds.
i don’t think an elitist attitude is a good idea for the thread; vr is a very far cry from an exact science and it exists primarily as a tool or newer / unfamiliar players interested in the metagame. id argue the same is true for discussion on vr as well.
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TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
I disagree that Bullet Seed is worse than Gyro Ball and Power Whip, although I appreciate your general attitude towards the matter, and towards viability rankings as a whole Melee Mewtwo. Bullet Seed has exponentially more PP than Gyro Ball and Power Whip, and better accuracy than the latter. Bullet Seed also gives you the advantage of being able to break through Substitute Kyogre and stop it from setting up on you, which neither other option provides. Gyro Ball can hit things like Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy, but as we've already established, Ferrothorn is never a Xerneas counter, and even with Gyro Ball, and Ferrothorn beats Arceus-Fairy anyway, regardless of whether or not it's running Gyro Ball (unless the Arceus-Fairy is running Fire Blast, in which case Ferrothorn loses regardless of whether or not it's running Gyro Ball). Power Whip hits the obvious Grass-weak Pokemon such as Kyogre and Arceus-Ground, but so does Bullet Seed, and even a low number of hits is more than enough to break the Substitute that when not broken thanks to a miss, can prove extremely costly.
As far as it being "not a set," I think this is the sort of elitist mindset that should be avoided. Even if we completely ignore the fact that Bullet Seed Ferrothorn has been seen multiple times in UPL, Seasonals, and other tours, its merits alone should be enough for it to stand out as a set that is so uncommon and unviable that it should not even be regarded. It's much, much more than some bizarre fringe set, and treating it as such is unproductive. It's a move that is obviously seen in the metagame, and therefore the notion that it's "not a set" is untrue and elitist, and does not portray the metagame accurately.
Finally, I would have thought that this would go without saying, but abject rudeness and flippancy is not only unproductive and not valuable to the discussion, but also off-putting to newcomers to the tier. I hope some of us can strive to do better in how we discuss with our fellow players.
As far as it being "not a set," I think this is the sort of elitist mindset that should be avoided. Even if we completely ignore the fact that Bullet Seed Ferrothorn has been seen multiple times in UPL, Seasonals, and other tours, its merits alone should be enough for it to stand out as a set that is so uncommon and unviable that it should not even be regarded. It's much, much more than some bizarre fringe set, and treating it as such is unproductive. It's a move that is obviously seen in the metagame, and therefore the notion that it's "not a set" is untrue and elitist, and does not portray the metagame accurately.
Finally, I would have thought that this would go without saying, but abject rudeness and flippancy is not only unproductive and not valuable to the discussion, but also off-putting to newcomers to the tier. I hope some of us can strive to do better in how we discuss with our fellow players.
The only reason to ever run it is if you're scared of sub ogre, which I don’t think is that common. Maybe people abuse it on ladder, not sure. I personally haven’t seen it anywhere and feel like it’s a sub-par set. I’m not trying to be elitist, but what I gather from this thread is that people just post (and sometimes agree with each other) without thinking much over it. I feel like this could in fact be harmful to new players, as they gather false believes about the tier.
As for the post right above me, I feel like from what I’ve read you’re doing exactly what you call “elitism” without being elitist. The zygarde posts where as far of a cry from productive and valuable as anything. Also to adress the ferro not being a xern check, this claim is false. It’s not a geoxern check, it checks about every other set out there, apart from something like the very uncommon hp fire pixie plate. Possibly hp fire specs as well, but it would require some predicting to get rid of it.
As to sum it all up:
It’s fine to post but please think about what you’re saying. If you’re not sure feel free to ask any staff member or someone you feel is more knowledgable about the tier on ps smogon or discord. And if you decide you don’t want to, at least phrase it in an asking manner instead of stating it as truth. It avoids empty discussions and misinformation for newer players. And “discussing” stuff like the reg zygarde analysis is about as pointless as arguing over wether to spell it with or without a capital letter.
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TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
I'm not sure how you managed to glean elitism from any of my posts, as they honestly seem quite the opposite, but I'll address your points anyway. The Zygarde posts were just a call for consistency, which could have been assuaged with a brief analysis and listing on the VR thread, or by combining the listings of both formes on the VR listing. If you notice, I wasn't even the one who began the discussion regarding Zygarde; I merely gave my support for someone else's point, while merely defending myself when you attacked my posts as being useless. Anyway, the issue has been fixed for the most part now, so I think talking any more about this matter is unproductive.
Ferrothorn is a check to Xerneas as you mentioned, but similar to the manner in which it checks Arceus-Fairy, it checks Xerneas as well, with or without Gyro Ball. In other words, Bullet Seed Ferrothorn does not lose any Xerneas matchups that Gyro Ball Ferrothorn wins, under standard conditions.
I listed the merits of Bullet Seed Ferrothorn already, and they eclipse merely being insurance against Substitute Primal Kyogre. Bullet Seed Ferrothorn is also able to help to break through Mega Sableye lacking Will-O-Wisp, as in conjunction with Iron Barbs damage, you're able to PP stall its Recovers. Apart from that, I think being able to break through Substitute sweepers more consistently than the other options is justification enough for it to be considered a viable set. As I said, it has been used in well-respected Ubers tours, and if you still feel that it is, in your own words, "not a set," I'm not sure what to tell you, other than to urge you to try it yourself.
That being said, I don't think Ferrothorn's viability should be increased because of this set, of which people are apparently unaware. I think it's fine where it is, and I therefore have no nomination to propose on the matter. Spikes is an incredible move, which is a big part of the reason I nominated Skarmory in an earlier post. I do acknowledge the rise in Pokemon like Ho-Oh, but Spikes-based teams are as good as ever right now, and are being used with prevalence in tournaments at the moment.
for clarification, bullet seed lets u pp stall goth and non-wisp Msab (you might beat wisp too? idr) which are otherwise problematic mus for ferro. personally i value that higher than a slightly better subogre mu (whip isn’t bad vs subogre or anything) although atm these pokemon are very rarely used.
as for the utility of whip / gyro. Gyro’s main appeals are non-geo xern sets and killing cm fairyceus when u opt to not run toxic in favor of protect.(or u fight refresh fairy) more importantly, though, it dissuades potential focus blast / hp fire mega gengar from harding into ur ferrothorn freely. pwhip is when u want to grass stab but prefer actual dmg to pp stalling currently niche threats. a concrete example is bullet seed needing to hit 4/5 times (each) to threaten groundceus with a 2hko; something pwhip has better odds of doing even with accuracy included. in general, even with misses factored in, ur average dmg from pwhip exceeds all but 5hits of bullet seed.
as for the utility of whip / gyro. Gyro’s main appeals are non-geo xern sets and killing cm fairyceus when u opt to not run toxic in favor of protect.(or u fight refresh fairy) more importantly, though, it dissuades potential focus blast / hp fire mega gengar from harding into ur ferrothorn freely. pwhip is when u want to grass stab but prefer actual dmg to pp stalling currently niche threats. a concrete example is bullet seed needing to hit 4/5 times (each) to threaten groundceus with a 2hko; something pwhip has better odds of doing even with accuracy included. in general, even with misses factored in, ur average dmg from pwhip exceeds all but 5hits of bullet seed.
TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
The thing is, Ferrothorn doesn't need Gyro Ball to beat either of these sets. Gyro Ball Ferrothorn doesn't win any Fairy matchups that Bullet Seed Ferrothorn also doesn't win.
Mega Gengar almost never, ever runs either of these moves in USM.
Regarding your points on Power Whip vs. Bullet Seed, I hear you and don't mean to contradict you, but I think the consistency in accuracy offered by Bullet Seed is enough for it to at least be considered as an alternative. You're much safer with Bullet Seed against Substitute Pokemon that could prove threatening. For example, a missed Power Whip vs SD Arceus-Ground could lead to Arceus-Ground getting up to +4, which is unbelievably scary for any team that Ferrothorn might find itself on.
This'll honestly be the last post I make here cause I can't be asked to keep repeating and explaining myself anymore (not directed at you MM). As far as I'm aware Msab pretty much always runs Will-o-Wisp, so that point is almost void, but I suppose it's some sort of niche? As for goth, honestly, just run shed shell if you're worried about the mon. The trade-off just seems not worth it.
I feel like the original point I brought up got sidetracked into this, my point being that Ferro's mainly just a spiker that loses to Ho-oh, in a metagame where it is very present, on top of almost every pokemon being able to learn defog these days. The things it used to be able to at least switch-into found ways to not allow this, and therefore became popular, making it a less than stellar pokemon. It's still not a bad pokemon but if you ask me, not at all worthy of the top of A-. Therefore I'd like to nominate it again to be moved down to B+ or even the top of B.
Non-gyro gives almost free switch-ins to fast offensive threats like Unecro, scarf Yveltal, etc. I'm not going further into this, but as for the bullet seed thing itself, I'm just going to say I fully agree with what Hack said on Discord and am going to leave it at that
TheUndeclared243
Banned deucer.
This is simply not true, at least in USM. Toxic is far more common than Will-O-Wisp on Mega Sableye.
If you run Shed Shell on Ferrothorn, then you're missing out on very important Leftovers recovery. You still haven't explained why it's not worth it to run Bullet Seed, when Bullet Seed gives several advantages over Power Whip apart from beating Gothitelle, as I've already mentioned.
Leech Seed makes switching into Ferrothorn costly, and helps Ferrothorn's teammate make the switch-in to the faster threat in question far more manageable.
It's true that Ferrothorn is a Spikes user that loses to Ho-Oh, but in any matchup lacking Ho-Oh, it very easily abuses Spikes, Leech Seed, and Toxic, and also serves a strong role in a team's general defensive backbone, even Spikes notwithstanding. The prevalence of Defog in USM doesn't make Spikes-centered teams necessarily less viable to a considerable degree, as evidenced by Spikes's prevalence in the Ubers tournament scene as of late.
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