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Format Discussion Metronome Battle
- Thread starter Ivy
- Start date
Sturdy + Shed is banned.
Okay, then how did that guy do it in his replay?
Edit: Nvm, I see he passed it on with receiver. New question then, why Diglett and not something that can die easier like Shuckle or Sunkern?
737373elj
Banned deucer.
You can always do that! It’s up to the person who uses Shed. You can even choose to use Power of Alchemy if you want; it’s just the same thing.
The team of the day! A Mudboi and Defiant...
Alois (Swampert) (M) @ Muscle Band
Ability: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Didacus (Gallade-Mega) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
What does this look like it does? Yep, Alois is a physical attacker, and Sap Sipper not only patches his immense weakness but also gives him more attack boosts! And Didacus... I started Technician, but Technician kinda sucks, so I defaulted back on Defiant. Welp!
Anyways, here's a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7metronomebattle-993731090
Next up on my testlist: Plus and Minus? Wonder Skin? Tinted Lens?
Alois (Swampert) (M) @ Muscle Band
Ability: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Didacus (Gallade-Mega) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
What does this look like it does? Yep, Alois is a physical attacker, and Sap Sipper not only patches his immense weakness but also gives him more attack boosts! And Didacus... I started Technician, but Technician kinda sucks, so I defaulted back on Defiant. Welp!
Anyways, here's a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7metronomebattle-993731090
Next up on my testlist: Plus and Minus? Wonder Skin? Tinted Lens?
I was thinking about that one too! For now, though, I think I'm gonna play with Plus and Minus. Time to break out the Mega Ampharoses!
In the meantime while I play this out, may I present to you:
The Case AGAINST Simple and Contrary, Abridged
So at first gander, Simple and Contrary seem like really awesome abilities, aye? If you get a boost, auto-doubled, in the case of Simple. If you get a stat lowered, HAH! It's now raised, because of Contrary.
But... It works the other way too. A simple -1, as a move like, uh... I dunno, but there are SO many stat-dropping moves - any -1 immediately turns into -2, and -2 into -4, turning your simple, say, Superpower drop into an easy kill. And Contrary? Don't get me started on how many times a mon with Contrary Calm Minds.
Simple is... I don't like it much, but WP Simple is actually pretty smart of a set. Contrary? Don't see the purpose.
So yea. That's my 2 cents. Anyone have any opinion on this?
The Case AGAINST Simple and Contrary, Abridged
So at first gander, Simple and Contrary seem like really awesome abilities, aye? If you get a boost, auto-doubled, in the case of Simple. If you get a stat lowered, HAH! It's now raised, because of Contrary.
But... It works the other way too. A simple -1, as a move like, uh... I dunno, but there are SO many stat-dropping moves - any -1 immediately turns into -2, and -2 into -4, turning your simple, say, Superpower drop into an easy kill. And Contrary? Don't get me started on how many times a mon with Contrary Calm Minds.
Simple is... I don't like it much, but WP Simple is actually pretty smart of a set. Contrary? Don't see the purpose.
So yea. That's my 2 cents. Anyone have any opinion on this?
I tried a Plus/Minus team a couple weeks ago (and thought I posted it but apparently not!) and it's pretty underwhelming:
Gengar-Mega @ choice specs
Ability: Plus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Metronome
Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Minus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Metronome
This specific team is a lot more frail than MAmps would be, but it was enough to get a sense of the limitations of Plus/Minus. Mainly, it's that Special moves are surprisingly rare, especially given the number of immunities in this format. Since you're also dependent on both abilities to be present, this strategy is also weak to anything that impedes that, like Entrainment/Skill Swap/Worry Seed or even just having one of your 'mon faint. (It also generally isn't great to hyperfocus on Special Attack since it means Struggling is an absolute death sentence whereas something with enough Attack can theoretically still have a chance, but that's more situational.)
Gardevoir was intended to at least partially address the second issue; the idea is that when Gengar dies, if either 'mon loses its ability, or if you're facing a couple of Ghosts, you Mega Evolve to get Pixilate instead. Gengar was chosen because it seemed like it would balance frailty and power well; unfortunately, in practice, Gardevoir died first much of the time. However, I managed to pull off a Magnetic Flux once or twice, which is neat, and
it was pretty nice to be able to proactively respond to things on the field. (So far as Mega Evolutions go, I've also tried Download Altaria on a different team, which is better but not overwhelmingly so. Being able to get a new ability isn't really as useful as just having a good item and better stats to start with.)
I haven't tried +/- MAmp, but it looks like it would probably be slightly more useable, since it'd stay on the field longer. The primary issue with the abilities still stands, though--there just aren't enough Special moves for them to be reliable. Gengar's 1k+ SpA totally nuked things even on weak or neutral hits, but most of the time it would land on status, physical, or immune moves. You get a bigger bonus from, like, a single activation of Competitive than you do from Plus, so the opportunity cost is pretty high.
Anyway, I've been meaning to try out Simple WP since that looks pretty fun. I wonder how successful something dumb like Symbiosis CB could be with it?
+4 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ampharos-Mega: 215-253 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Heracross has enough weaknesses that it doesn't feel too hard to proc the WA. And if the Symbiosis mon is another Hera, the Band would be useful even before you trigger it so it wouldn't be deadweight in the meantime. But perhaps it'd be more useful to have a defensive ability so the WP mon can stay on the field longer.
Damn this thread got active, new ideas all around as the new gen approaches. Speaking of which I wonder if gigantamaxes will have different stats + be selectable in the teambuilder. Anyway, back to the present.
In any case it can be novel to play with stat changes. When it comes down to it, pokemon is just putting numbers against numbers so changing those numbers can get you somewhere. Simple is kind of like going big or going home and Contrary is like playing in the wrong way. Compared to the real meta Contrary suffers from having no reliable setups so there's not an opportunity to take advantage of it, and you just end up with a weird mechanic on yourself. As for Simple I don't think you would get debuffed as much in the usual game, but at the same time all the random boosts just get better. On average off the top of my head I'd say Simple would benefit more than it loses over time, but yeah you could do better than Contrary.
Sturdy Shedinja: This is funny. Ivy is right about loss streaks, I went to 1000 when I tried this back with ladder. Fortunately it was easy enough to rejoin the exclusive 1300 club. A sacrifice to unleash a banned monster seems fitting, but Shedinja just doesn't go the distance. Makes me think about having the same 1v2 handicap, but being used to allow Arceus or something in.
Plus/Minus: Apparently I made one Minus team once with Mega Lucario 2x. I always preferred physical but the instant power is to be considered I guess. Still as said it has weaknesses in its simplicity, nothing is perfect. I've made a team that's more on the mixed side and I think it could really go places.
-----
Recent ability talk reminded me of my plans of an ability tierlist. At this point people know the meta and what's good, but at the time I wanted to try new things and think about all the other filler/niche abilities. There's different ways to rate these things that all do different things so I started with the basics, the things that do nothing.
No effect: These don't work.
Emergency Exit, Wimp Out, Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Triage, Suction Cups, Stance Change, Run Away, Honey Gather, Magnet Pull, Anticipation, Forewarn, Stakeout, Illuminate
No useful effect: These do something but don't affect the result of the battle.
Frisk, Illusion
Bad:
Defeatist, Slow Start
This is when I let go. The good meta stuff all kind of has powerful effects/convenient and consistent/good in general, and everything else either is outclassed or has some kind of weird niche counter usage that might be more helpful than something else. Even "No Ability" has an effect in halting Trace. Still it's about having fun too and there's always a chance to win. The combination of Unranked ladder + default 252 evs has kind of helped with team variety and being able to try/test/judge new ideas easily. Imagine dying to anger point or some terrain setup? Stay tuned for my EV spread tier list next time.
~
Also RIP Harvest + Rowap/Jaboca. In the end it was stronger than I expected and probably viable but not dominating. Could be freed but first let's #FreeSchooling
Interesting discussion topic. The risk of Simple is manageable with Flower Veil, I think it's the only way other than Mist to block stat drops for both mons. Fveil protects against most of the Simple debuffs, but it is crippling when you occasionally debuff yourself to -2 or -4 (At least it's with a strong move, worse if it's nve). iirc Flower Veil + Contrary does allow the enemy to buff you, but on the other hand it still lets you debuff yourself. In general with Contrary there's so many buffs that you could roll for yourself that it doesn't end up being that good. I don't know the exact numbers on if they would actually counterbalance, but it does make you play against yourself sometimes. Also Weakness Policy just drops your stats lol.
In any case it can be novel to play with stat changes. When it comes down to it, pokemon is just putting numbers against numbers so changing those numbers can get you somewhere. Simple is kind of like going big or going home and Contrary is like playing in the wrong way. Compared to the real meta Contrary suffers from having no reliable setups so there's not an opportunity to take advantage of it, and you just end up with a weird mechanic on yourself. As for Simple I don't think you would get debuffed as much in the usual game, but at the same time all the random boosts just get better. On average off the top of my head I'd say Simple would benefit more than it loses over time, but yeah you could do better than Contrary.
Sturdy Shedinja: This is funny. Ivy is right about loss streaks, I went to 1000 when I tried this back with ladder. Fortunately it was easy enough to rejoin the exclusive 1300 club. A sacrifice to unleash a banned monster seems fitting, but Shedinja just doesn't go the distance. Makes me think about having the same 1v2 handicap, but being used to allow Arceus or something in.
Plus/Minus: Apparently I made one Minus team once with Mega Lucario 2x. I always preferred physical but the instant power is to be considered I guess. Still as said it has weaknesses in its simplicity, nothing is perfect. I've made a team that's more on the mixed side and I think it could really go places.
-----
Recent ability talk reminded me of my plans of an ability tierlist. At this point people know the meta and what's good, but at the time I wanted to try new things and think about all the other filler/niche abilities. There's different ways to rate these things that all do different things so I started with the basics, the things that do nothing.
No effect: These don't work.
Emergency Exit, Wimp Out, Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Triage, Suction Cups, Stance Change, Run Away, Honey Gather, Magnet Pull, Anticipation, Forewarn, Stakeout, Illuminate
No useful effect: These do something but don't affect the result of the battle.
Frisk, Illusion
Bad:
Defeatist, Slow Start
This is when I let go. The good meta stuff all kind of has powerful effects/convenient and consistent/good in general, and everything else either is outclassed or has some kind of weird niche counter usage that might be more helpful than something else. Even "No Ability" has an effect in halting Trace. Still it's about having fun too and there's always a chance to win. The combination of Unranked ladder + default 252 evs has kind of helped with team variety and being able to try/test/judge new ideas easily. Imagine dying to anger point or some terrain setup? Stay tuned for my EV spread tier list next time.
~
Also RIP Harvest + Rowap/Jaboca. In the end it was stronger than I expected and probably viable but not dominating. Could be freed but first let's #FreeSchooling
Updates!
Team 1: Plus/Minus - A Case Study
OffTheDashboard (Ampharos-Mega) (M) @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Plus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
ShapedSunglasses (Ampharos-Mega) (F) @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Minus
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
First off, if you understand the reference, good on you. Secondly, ehhh. As saltyseahag69 said earlier, Plus/Minus is quite underwhelming. If the Amphys get a special move, it hits like a truck. But they don't...
Team 2: Fishing for Crits
Haxor's Shundo (Farfetch'd) (M) @ Stick
Ability: Sniper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Gym Fodder (Chansey) @ Lucky Punch
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Yea, it's a TERRIBLE team, and I haven't won with it once. But you can kinda see what I'm going for, right? (I wonder if Chansey still gets Lucky Punch crit boost if it has Imposter and transforms, HMMMM...) But yea, I'mma try to find a crittastic team... someday.
Today's testing: Wonder Skin!
Team 1: Plus/Minus - A Case Study
OffTheDashboard (Ampharos-Mega) (M) @ Wise Glasses Ability: Plus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
ShapedSunglasses (Ampharos-Mega) (F) @ Wise Glasses Ability: Minus
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
First off, if you understand the reference, good on you. Secondly, ehhh. As saltyseahag69 said earlier, Plus/Minus is quite underwhelming. If the Amphys get a special move, it hits like a truck. But they don't...
Team 2: Fishing for Crits
Haxor's Shundo (Farfetch'd) (M) @ Stick
Ability: Sniper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Gym Fodder (Chansey) @ Lucky Punch
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Yea, it's a TERRIBLE team, and I haven't won with it once. But you can kinda see what I'm going for, right? (I wonder if Chansey still gets Lucky Punch crit boost if it has Imposter and transforms, HMMMM...) But yea, I'mma try to find a crittastic team... someday.
Today's testing: Wonder Skin!
Yes, but Leppa Berry Imposter Blissey is much more reliable. Can't stall if you only last 5 turns.
Anger Point of all things was randomly devastating.
Why not both? Team up with Symbiosis and Eviolite, now you can last for 10 turns too! All blissey has now is an actual teammate.
Crits: That takes me back to my first team. With mine I only committed with 1 Farfetch'd and used super luck for 100%. Hopefully Sirfetchd can revive the dream. This is my most clutch classic crit Farfetch'd replay. Everything has to line up in place, but when it does...
Perish Song: I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, but this is an underrated way to deal with Perish Song.
pulp (Suicune) (M) @ Bright Powder
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Metronome
slug (Camerupt-Mega) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Metronome
RIP empoleon
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Metronome
slug (Camerupt-Mega) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Metronome
RIP empoleon
I tried some different ideas today, so this post will be about highlight replays. First off was Trace on a Mega to change my ability. For the most part it was fine but Trace was meh. In most scenarios it was better to mega for the stats, but sometimes being patient was the key. I did get this nice turn 1 play. Ampharos tracing Technician and getting Electrified into Rock Throw is quite a coincidence. This replay does not make use of Trace, but I saved it because the opponent had a unique Misty Seed strat and on turn 10 Mew gets thawed out and burned in the same move.
The partner Latios is just a kings rock set. For some reason, there were more than a couple (+Speed) Mews that outsped Latios (neutral nature). I blame the teambuilder suggested spread button.
Later I tried to see if my Drought Mega Houndoom theorymon, or even Solar Power in general was worth it. It isn't. Here's a winning replay, I got a Searing Shot in sun with Specs mAlakazam here that didn't even kill Gligar. My second and final fight was a loss, but I think Solar Power actually perfectly killed me in the end. Very impressive.
- Symbiosis & Gluttony: I fought a Harvest Starf team and tried it myself. 25% feels too late to make a difference, so how about Gluttony to fix that? Symbiosis lets you get a second berry/item too and it'll likely be intact to pass on. Tried with Marshadow and Snorlax but it didn't work that well. In one of the games, I got to 1 damage away from 50% early on with Marshadow and ended up winning later without the strategy mattering. Starf did help once but it was alone, not with Symbiosis.
- Anger Point: After seeing rarycaris's Anger Point replay I was inspired. Used Cresselias with Lansat/Salac Berries. It kind of worked like I pictured, but it backfired too. Trace strikes again.
I always end up coming back to metronome. Even when I think I've seen everything, something new always happens. Crazy game
Last edited:
I had no idea Storm Drain did that.... Now that makes that ability very interesting to me. Maybe try a Lightning Rod + Storm Drain team just to see how annoying it gets. Maybe find some good mons that could benefit nicely from a water/electric immunity(Like that ground/fire boi).
737373elj
Banned deucer.
Try Smokomodo
Gonna give this a whirl.
Edit: Here is a match I feel a little bad about. I was just trying to give advice and then I won a little too hard lol.
Edit2: I just had match where Storm Drain didn't protect me from Perish Song.... I wonder why.
"Sucks it up! (Camerupt-Mega) (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
Shiny: Yes
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Damage (Heracross-Mega) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Magic Bounce
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Ability: Storm Drain
Shiny: Yes
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Damage (Heracross-Mega) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Magic Bounce
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Edit: Here is a match I feel a little bad about. I was just trying to give advice and then I won a little too hard lol.
Edit2: I just had match where Storm Drain didn't protect me from Perish Song.... I wonder why.
Last edited:
Wonder Skin! Ahhh, it's such a nice ability given all the status that bounces around...
Lolita (Diancie) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Carmen (Cresselia) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Do I need to explain this? Wonder Skin makes status half as likely to hit, Weakness Policy is standard.
Next Up: Critseeking Imposter Chanseys? Yeah, they're gonna lose...
Lolita (Diancie) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Carmen (Cresselia) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Do I need to explain this? Wonder Skin makes status half as likely to hit, Weakness Policy is standard.
Next Up: Critseeking Imposter Chanseys? Yeah, they're gonna lose...
I'm struggling to see why this should be used over Magic Bounce, unless it got banned and the original post hasn't been updated to reflect that.
Perish Song user didn't have Liquid Voice?
Personally, I prefer Wonder Skin as Magic Bounce is overused and you still get debuffed on one of your 'mons with MB if it's an all-hit move. Also, it's just more satisfying to imagine opponents getting salty over their Toxic missing.