Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[Bold School]

So I discovered that Ninetails of all things might actually a decent anti-lead in this meta. Might... Unfortunately, I also discovered that I had no room for it on my current team because I needed other things more. Not sure how viable it actually is but I would love to get more data on it. I'll post the set anyway in case people find it useful.

Ninetales @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Roar/Hypnosis
- Foul Play

So this set is all about matchups. Fire is unironically a great typing right now with immunity to the increasingly common Will-O-Wisp in an increasingly physical meta and all the Steel types and G-Darm running around. The Sun is also good for countering rain and sand sweeping strategies, which are fairly common right now. Since Ninetails is otherwise rather weak, the Sun gives it a STAB of actual respectability that can KO a lot of leads. Same with Fire Blast over safer moves. It needs the power. The ability to hit water and some rock types is also important. Solar Beam allows you to kill the ever prevalent Seismitoad and chunk a good portion of Rotom-W, since those are sometimes used as leads. The ability to one shot both Siesmatod and Ferrothorn with one pokemon is pretty handy in the current meta.

The 100 speed allows it to outspeed lead G-Darm and 1HKO it with Fire Blast. This is also why it is scarfed. It beats scarfed G-Darm in speed every time. Fire Blast also does more damage against most things that don't resist it than Foul Play. Even on most Ghost types, you are generally better off firing a Fire Blast than any alternatives. This includes Gengar, which is a 68.8% chance to 1HKO to with Fire Blast. Foul Play is mostly for Dragapult and some situations with Dynamax or other boosted physical attackers. (Not Corvinight because that usually buffs its defense and is weak to Fire.) It can't 1HKO Dragapult, but it can generally do more to it faster than it does to Ninetails, unless it uses Draco Meteor.

I currently have Roar on here because it lets you phase out whatever opposing lead you can't check with Ninetails. It's not necesarrily that useful on a Scarf set where you are locked into moves. (Although, a surprise Dynamax does let you break choice lock when your opponent might not expect it.) Given the speed tier, it might be useful on a team with good hazard control. Since Roar doesn't work on Dynamax, it might be worth switching it out for something else like Hypnosis. The other options were kind of lacking, though. The set is also pretty bad against most dragons.

In the future, I expect the banning of Dynamax and G-Darm will make this lead set less good than whatever level it already is. So I would guess a Wall Breaker type set with Life orb and Nasty Plot will be the more viable option once some of this craziness gets phased out. That set could carry Extrasensory to hit Toxapex, so it could take out that in addition to Seismatoad and Ferrothorn. But it's just hard to run that now with Dynamax and Choice Scarf G-Darm running wild. I personally found more success with it keeping the Choice Scarf to outspeed things and then occasionally using Dynamax to break out of choice lock and tear through a key bit of the opposing team.

 

[readytolose]

Heliolisk has been putting in some really nice work for me. Toxtricity is much stronger, but Heliolisk is faster (base 109) and actually has some really nice defensive qualities. I actually think it's better than Toxtricity who is just dead weight in certain matchups thanks to its low speed. Heliolisk outspeeds Hydreigon and Excadrill among other things which is pretty huge since Toxtricity gets outsped and revenge killed by those (along with a lot of other things). Being a Normal type that's also immune to Water thanks to Dry Skin is very well suited for this metagame, and that typing makes things like Specs Dragapult and choiced Dracovish think twice about locking into Shadow Ball or Fishious Rend. I'm sure you know by now that being Water-immune is great in this meta, not just for Dracovish, but also for switching in on Toxapex, Jellicent, Rotom-W and others. A Ghost immunity is far less common but also very useful given that there are some very viable common Ghost types in the metagame as well (Dragapult, Aegislash, Corsola-G). Heliolisk has some great coverage too and can cover the main switch-ins to its Electric moves like Seismitoad, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill with Focus Blast and Grass Knot.

Heliolisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch / Hyper Voice

I've been using a four attacks Leftovers set so that it can stick around longer to use its defensive qualities. This set forces Corsola-G into a standstill and 1v1s it thanks to Leftovers cancelling out the burn damage, and notably completely shuts down that really annoying Sub Disable Hex Dragapult set, which can usually just burn you, maybe attempt a disable, then switch out while making no headway. I'm pretty sure it can also duel that Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon/Shadow Sneak/King's Shield Aegislash set 1v1 although it loses a lot of health doing so. It generally messes with most defensive cores if you can predict well, as it has some way of hitting pretty much everything.

I'm sure there are other viable sets, too, since Heliolisk has a lot of tech in its movepool (like Sub to take advantage of the free turns it gets, Glare to punish Ground types even harder, other coverage options to hit some specific threats) and can still make good use of its immunities with a more offensive set, like LO or choiced. And I could see it getting even better as the meta progresses. If Dynamax goes that means stuff like Dragapult, Barraskewda and Dracovish can't Dynamax to break their choice lock meaning their prediction against Heliolisk is even more important. Basically this mon is really fun to use if you're good at prediction and is actually quite good right now, and it has a lot of potential too. So try it out people.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

This set...notably completely shuts down that really annoying Sub Disable Hex Dragapult set, which can usually just burn you, maybe attempt a disable, then switch out while making no headway.

How does it do that at all without dark pulse? Thunderbolt gets disabled and then you can't do anything to even break sub. Heliosk is fine, but it's in now way an answer to dragpult.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I'm still audibly guffawing at the decision to reverse Moody Clause. The problem was never that it was broken, but that it's uncompetitive. It will never be a consistently good strategy in OU, but its literally only purpose is to cheese out a win over a more skilled player using the tendency of the ability to push the user towards +6 in all stats. The audacity of the strategy makes me yearn for days of Confide + Rest + Charm Gothorita. Glalie and Octillery are naturally checked by nearly every team but if you happen to give them a free turn in a somewhat unfavorable matchup and they get lucky... yikes

 

[readytolose]

How does it do that at all without dark pulse? Thunderbolt gets disabled and then you can't do anything to even break sub. Heliosk is fine, but it's in now way an answer to dragpult.

It always breaks a sub in 2 hits with Grass Knot (252 SpA Heliolisk Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 80 HP / 8 SpD Dragapult: 48-57 (14.2 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO), and Grass Knot also has 32 PP, so you can just stick around clicking it and clicking Thunderbolt on turns you are not disabled since it almost always breaks a Sub. Eventually you just beat it 1v1 since you outdamage its Leftovers recovery (even if it Subs every other turn). Alternately you can Grass Knot a Sub then Volt Switch, breaking it and going out to something else that can force out or revenge kill an unprotected Dragapult.

 

[Bloo's gash]

I'm still audibly guffawing at the decision to reverse Moody Clause. The problem was never that it was broken, but that it's uncompetitive. It will never be a consistently good strategy in OU, but its literally only purpose is to cheese out a win over a more skilled player using the tendency of the ability to push the user towards +6 in all stats. The audacity of the strategy makes me yearn for days of Confide + Rest + Charm Gothorita. Glalie and Octillery are naturally checked by nearly every team but if you happen to give them a free turn in a somewhat unfavorable matchup and they get lucky... yikes

I must necessarily concur with my colleague upon this point; I have lost to a Glalie several times and experienced quite some humiliations ! Is there some effective counter moves which may help me with such issues ?

 

[DaRkRaii]

I'm still audibly guffawing at the decision to reverse Moody Clause. The problem was never that it was broken, but that it's uncompetitive. It will never be a consistently good strategy in OU, but its literally only purpose is to cheese out a win over a more skilled player using the tendency of the ability to push the user towards +6 in all stats. The audacity of the strategy makes me yearn for days of Confide + Rest + Charm Gothorita. Glalie and Octillery are naturally checked by nearly every team but if you happen to give them a free turn in a somewhat unfavorable matchup and they get lucky... yikes

Not so much just uncompetitive, but also annoying. It doesn't really aid itself in any player interaction whatsoever. The moody user will do their best to stall until they get lucky and it doesn't encourage any sort of gameplay. It really isn't overpowered at all. Just incredibly annoying.

 

[Nugget]

Honestly I would argue that Moody is both uncompetitive AND broken. It's more consistent than it should be. The risk/reward on it is just so stupid. The risk is you lose one mon if you don't get the boosts you need but you should be able to find an opportunity to stall for 3 or so boosts fairly easily in any given game. If you get bad boosts the game is a 5 v 6 effectively yes but if you get decent boosts you will probably get a 2 for 1 or at least a 1 for 1. If you get good boosts? You just win the game full stop. Like, worst case you do nothing (honestly pretty bad) but average case you are probably gonna break even.

Additionally, the moody Pokémon basically operates independent of the team around it. Yeah a little support helps but all the moody mon needs to do is get a sub up and you don't really need your other teammates to help you find that opportunity. And let's say you get the sub up but you only ever drop defenses and speed so you get wrecked. That sucks but honestly there are so many games in this meta where one player finishes a game with 1-3 mons who never even touched the field. It's not really too hard to pull off a win with just 5 mons when you really only need a strong dynamax or a ditto in the back to make up for a deficit of 2-3 pokemon. And again even if you lost every single game where your moody died, the mere fact that you are gonna win a non-negligible number of games just off of that moody mon getting boosts your opponent had 0 ability to stop for is not a very cool thing.

Frankly, I like that we gave moody a chance in the meta without evasion boosts but I don't think it was a good addition to the metagame and it being unbanned really only served to demonstrate that any very high variance RNG mechanic functions pretty similarly to evasion at the end of the day. They both create situations where the difference between the optimal play and a bad play is almost nothing. If you have a 33% chance to hit the opponent, how much does it really matter what move you pick? If you have no chance to break Glalie's sub does it matter what move you pick? The optimal play is just to forfeit.

If pokemon is a game of risk and reward then playing without moody is blackjack and playing with moody is a slot machine.

 

[KamenOH]

While everyone is talking about moody, i wish to bring up an alternative to Glalie while moody is still here, if it were to leave one day.

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 106 HP / 150 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Scald
I am still working out some kinks (and there may be large ones), but this is an alternative to the pure ice type that is Glalie. With the superior defensive type, which resists Fisheous Rend, it only has to worry about grass and electric attacks. It has 75/75/75 defenses, which in previous generations would have been piddling, but due to Dexit, it is now somewhat serious. It has more HP than Toxapex, and less weaknesses to boot.
It also has 105/105 offenses, but we all know only the special side will be used because of the lack of a need for special walls. All the prominent attackers are physical, so why worry about the much rarer special attacker?
It works like a worse Glalie due to Octillery not having Disable, but that only leads to being able to use two offensive moves vs Glalie's one. This coverage, of which I chose ice beam and scald but there are probably far superior options (it learns flamethrower, so ferrothorn is less of a problem), lets it stay in play in situations where Glalie could be forced to switch out or stall.
In short: if you want more coverage on a slower but stronger Glalie, use Octillery. Maybe not my set, but someone will probably make a better one.

 

[DiscoDucky]

While everyone is talking about moody, i wish to bring up an alternative to Glalie while moody is still here, if it were to leave one day.
View attachment 209774
Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 106 HP / 150 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Scald
I am still working out some kinks (and there may be large ones), but this is an alternative to the pure ice type that is Glalie. With the superior defensive type, which resists Fisheous Rend, it only has to worry about grass and electric attacks. It has 75/75/75 defenses, which in previous generations would have been piddling, but due to Dexit, it is now somewhat serious. It has more HP than Toxapex, and less weaknesses to boot.
It also has 105/105 offenses, but we all know only the special side will be used because of the lack of a need for special walls. All the prominent attackers are physical, so why worry about the much rarer special attacker?
It works like a worse Glalie due to Octillery not having Disable, but that only leads to being able to use two offensive moves vs Glalie's one. This coverage, of which I chose ice beam and scald but there are probably far superior options (it learns flamethrower, so ferrothorn is less of a problem), lets it stay in play in situations where Glalie could be forced to switch out or stall.
In short: if you want more coverage on a slower but stronger Glalie, use Octillery. Maybe not my set, but someone will probably make a better one.

I think Moody unbanning should be re-examined since the nature of the ability fishing for boosts allows the Pokemon to randomly bypass its checks and counters. Recently, two sets (Glalie and Octillery) have been brought to attention in the UU subforum.

Glalie and Octillery

Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Protect
- Substitute
- Disable

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Protect
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave

Credits to Clefable for these sets. Since Moody gives you a net +1 boost (+2 in 1 random stat, -1 in 1 random stat), the longer either Pokemon stays on the field, the harder it becomes for the opponent to have adequate counterplay against either. For example, you could switch Specs Dragapult into Octillery and bypass sub with Thunderbolt, but a random +2 SpDef could easily nullify your attempt to check it. If it doesn't get it, it can either Thunder Wave you or Protect for more random boosts. Even with evasion boosts removed, Moody is still an ability that has no consistent counterplay against it.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1023037918
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1023017700

 

[KamenOH]

Moody is still an ability that has no consistent counterplay against it.

I have a question: Why does this matter? If it has counterplay, isnt it by default defeatable, and as such is fair? Besides, the main users of it are weak if they are unable to pull off the waiting game and get defeated beforehand.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I have a question: Why does this matter? If it has counterplay, isnt it by default defeatable, and as such is fair? Besides, the main users of it are weak if they are unable to pull off the waiting game and get defeated beforehand.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1023017700

I'm currently grinding my way up the ladder, so this low-ladder match isn't representative of the average player. What I did want to draw attention to is how Octillery could stall out against a +6/+6 Corviknight for 31 turns to eventually get every stat to be positive.

 

[Horserax]

I could see this potentially being a valid point if dive/fly were actually surefire answers to dynamax, but they're not at all. It will let you dodge for 1 turn, but there are 3 turns. Bringing tangrowth to every game basically ensures zygarde won't make progress, but using dive on a boosted DMax pokemon is delaying the inevitable at best. And the community still decided being forced to use tangrowth/bulu on every team was too much restriction. Also why would your weak ass dive force out a mon with double HP? Who switches out on that instead of just letting you burn the turn then going back to boosting/killing? Please stop pretending dive is the answer to dynamax.

I never said that it was a surefire uncounterable answer, nor did i saw that it would force out a pokemon, I specifically said it wont force out a pokemon. Please do not be rude, there is no reason for arguments here, we are all working together here.

 

[Nugget]

I have a question: Why does this matter? If it has counterplay, isnt it by default defeatable, and as such is fair? Besides, the main users of it are weak if they are unable to pull off the waiting game and get defeated beforehand.

I'm sorry but what? He just said that there's not consistent counterplay.
Also, just because something is "defeatable" doesn't make it fair. You could come up with fringe "counters" that will beat a specific strategy but if they are super niche (and in Moody's case even the counters that are supposed to beat it will get unlucky a lot of the time and not even work) and drastically hamper your ability to contend with other strategies then there is a problem.
Also, the argument that they are weak if they cannot get the boosts is pretty naïve. It's not going to be up to you when your opponent brings in the Moody user and a good player isn't going to just sack it. They're gonna wait until they can bring it in safely and get a sub (they only need one turn to do this) and then the stall begins. They are getting 2 boosts and there's nothing you can do about it. Maybe those boosts weren't good for the opponent but maybe they just win on the spot. Even if the boosts are bad you are under immense pressure to take care of Glalie/Octillery and even if you make every play optimally you are ultimately at the whim of RNG.

Ultimately the problem is that the Moody player does NOT need to get lucky to win, rather that their opponent HAS to get lucky to beat them. If you are still in a position to beat Moody before it snowballs out of control, you are still in position to get screwed over by the RNG and fail. Usually boosting your stats is a tempo loss because you use a turn immediately to gain boosts for future turns. With Moody you are just getting positive boosts no matter what you do so you are free to set up subs, throw out disable/twave or attack while you just get bigger and bigger. I feel like this is similar to Mega-Kanga and Max-Airstream in that they allow you to totally shut out the opponent by holding onto initiative (they HAVE to deal with your threat before they can begin to play proactively against you) and making your threat even harder to take down moving forward. Generally in Pokemon you have to choose one or the other and when you don't the game loses a lot of depth.

 

[KamenOH]

Ultimately the problem is that the Moody player does NOT need to get lucky to win, rather that their opponent HAS to get lucky to beat them. If you are still in a position to beat Moody before it snowballs out of control, you are still in position to get screwed over by the RNG and fail.

I seriously don't understand the first part. If your defenses are lowered, the sub is going to break easier, and you will have lost this pokemon on your team.
The second part is also not without trouble, for it doesn't even contribute. It's defeatist at best because it assumes you aren't able to stop it, even though you say you're in a position to stop it.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I have a question: Why does this matter? If it has counterplay, isnt it by default defeatable, and as such is fair? Besides, the main users of it are weak if they are unable to pull off the waiting game and get defeated beforehand.

Shadow Tag was also beatable, but was matchup reliant and allowed unskilled players to cheese out wins against more skilled players. I am saying this as someone who is terrible at the game in the current meta, so I have nothing to gain from this. Moody is similarly uncompetitive, but in a different way, because it can turn games that are totally in the opponent's favor into coin flips based on the RNG. This is why Swagger was banned in previous gens. Similarly BP/Stag/arguably Arena Trap/Dmax can give a player an advantage because they got a single free turn in a somewhat favorable team matchup, despite making considerably more mistakes both in team builder and in battle. The fact the abusers are both generally bad pokemon is irrelevant.

 

[Negative Charge]

Preface- I am not great at mons. However I must say using

this

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head

Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Disable
- Freeze-Dry
- Substitute

Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpA / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Disable
- Substitute

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Psychic Fangs

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Transform

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Flare Blitz

has been absolutely gross. I have cheesed my way out of numerous defeats by rolling the moody dice. This is peak coinflip and has no place in a competitive metagame. We hear so often the point of Smogon tiering is to make Pokemon more balanced and competitive, where skill is rewarded; Moody is the true antithesis of that.

I'd hate to see someone lose a tour game to this crap (first replay is the most egregious, I'd have lost if I didn't get speed).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1023085185-uvxk5tihzbdzb93dnct3vgs7qm0cg3npw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1023071261
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1022976422

 

[B1001]

Unbanning Moody has to be one of the most questionable decisions Smogon has made. I'm not sure what the thought process was as to allowing this mechanic back into play, as it's literally the opposite of competitive - unless you see gimmicks that rely almost exclusively on luck and RNG as competitive. In that case, why don't we just allow Double Team and OHKO moves and let the best man win?

Let's give this thing a quickban, forget that it ever happened, and move on.

 

[qways]

With sub+ protect + leftovers you lose 12.5% after 2 turns, assuming you are faster than you opponent. That means you can get to around 16 random boosts before you have to attack. Of couse this doesnt always work like that in practice, but i still think we should keep that number in mind. On average you get a +3 in 4 useful (def, spa, sdef, init) stats. Early defenses boosts could even allow you to not have your sub broken and increase the amount of boost you could get. Most boosting moves are weaker but not random and dont require 2 moves and a lot of health to setup.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

Unbanning Moody has to be one of the most questionable decisions Smogon has made. I'm not sure what the thought process was as to allowing this mechanic back into play, as it's literally the opposite of competitive - unless you see gimmicks that rely almost exclusively on luck and RNG as competitive. In that case, why don't we just allow Double Team and OHKO moves and let the best man win?

Let's give this thing a quickban, forget that it ever happened, and move on.

Because when things are nerfed, it's never a bad idea to test if they're still broken. When Moody boosted evasion, a lucky user could end up getting +6 in all stats. It's why evasion boosting is banned in the first place, a +1 to evasion makes further evasion boosts even easier to get. With that gone, Moody users are limited to however many turns they can buy with Substitute + Protect. The boosts don't beget more boosts.

Though I think it's clear at this point that Glalie, at a minimum, is broken. The meta's about as unfavorable to Moody as it's going to get and it's still sweeping pretty consistently.

 

[Finchinator]

The council has been informally discussing Moody. We do not plan to act during the Dynamax suspect and we may not act at all, but the discussions on here, discord, and PS have all been noted. You guys are welcome to continue discussing it of course and I will make sure to read the points expressed on both sides, but I just want to assure everyone that it is not an issue that is being ignored.

Finally, I would like everyone who is salty at it being unbanned in the first place to take it elsewhere. That has no place in a discussion of the current metagame and the main reason it was banned to begin with was the evasion. While I personally did not feel strongly either way, I think unbanning it was justified given that and the fact that the start of generations are largely experimental periods. Perhaps it will get banned and be deemed a failed experiment, perhaps it will not be -- I do not know. But stop beating a dead horse in a place that it is not even appropriate to discuss that way to begin with.

 

[Robot7620]

Because when things are nerfed, it's never a bad idea to test if they're still broken. When Moody boosted evasion, a lucky user could end up getting +6 in all stats. It's why evasion boosting is banned in the first place, a +1 to evasion makes further evasion boosts even easier to get. With that gone, Moody users are limited to however many turns they can buy with Substitute + Protect. The boosts don't beget more boosts.

Though I think it's clear at this point that Glalie, at a minimum, is broken. The meta's about as unfavorable to Moody as it's going to get and it's still sweeping pretty consistently.

Adding on to that, another great example would be Aegislash. It was banned last year but after the nerf I think it'll be OU.
It's much more managable but after Dynamaxing is gone I'm sure it'll be a top-level threat.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I have seen quite a few references to the idea that Moody isn't "fun" to play against (or play with) and I agree completely but I think that's irrelevant. There have been plenty of strats over the years that I don't really think anyone would consider fun (anyone around for GSC Miltank/Starmie teams?) that could still be appropriately spec'd for without drastically worsening an opposing team's match-up against the rest of the metagame. Furthermore, the consequences of giving most things a free turn to most Pokemon is dependent on how you respond as a player. The consequences of giving Octillery or Glalie a free turn are entirely up to the RNG. You could easily beat the strategy by running a dual Infiltrator core or by running multiple bulky phasers with reliable recovery. But your team would be awful against the rest of the metagame, especially with Dynamax's presence. Plus the Moody user could still get lucky. We've seen numerous examples where it turned unfavorable games into coin flips.

I'll give it a rest now, as I'm probably not adding much new to the discussion at this point.

Perhaps it will get banned and be deemed a failed experiment, perhaps it will not be -- I do not know. But stop beating a dead horse in a place that it is not even appropriate to discuss that way to begin with.

You are right it is inappropriate to discuss the initial decision as it has already been implemented, so I apologize if my initial comment was disrespectful.

 

[NewAgeChansey]

Ive found in testing that balance and bulky offensive is actually still pretty good this gen, even with Dynamax and the volume of wallbreakers invalidating stall. Galarian Corsola/Ferrothorn/Toxapex and even Mandibuzz make for a defensive core and you have breakers like Galarian Darm and Dracovish alongside sweepers like Gyarados and Hawlucha that can tear through teams and remove bulkier threats your opponent has.

 

[Sultan]

As I've been trying to ladder for the suspect, I've saved a bunch of replays of Moody being stupid. Anyone who tries to argue that it's easily beatable should look at these. Honestly, I think Moody is a lot more consistent than people give it credit for. In games where I was able to get it to start boosting, only two people were able to stop it, by comparison, much more people were able to stop my Dynamaxed Lucha. It doesn't boost every game, but it's still too consistent to not be problematic.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021730631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021751944
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021758779
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1022232055
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1022373311
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1022446793
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1022914707