Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

Might not be my place to talk about this, since I'm just a low ladder semi-casual, but on the subject of Moody clause, I'm a bit baffled why running just one sub-breaking mon or move per team (which would also completely bypass half the issue with SubProtect Moody Glalie) isn't a solution?
The problem is that Glalie can just Protect on the sub-passing move and Disable it.

Here's a replay to demonstrate Moody in action: replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021012758

Once I got it running, not even paralysis, Imposter, or freaking Dynamax was enough to stop it.
 
252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 136-162 (41 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 272-320 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Standard NP Sub Hydreigon can't really touch you unless it gets crits or is running Life Orb.
Oh my b, I read the calc wrong, ty brother
 
I waited till to right here till I lern the Meta more, but now it's time to start doing it, so here's my first post. Dynamax is being tested now and will likely be banned which I agree on.

Here's another Problem of the Metagame and it's not even GDarm, Hawlucha or Excadrill, it's

887.png


and especially the Sub + Disable Set

Dragapult Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
- Substitude
- Disable
- WoW
- Hex

This Thing is a menace.. this set won me so many games that I would have lost otherwise. Thanks to it's insane Speed it can setup a Sub on any mon bar some Scarf Users. Sub helps to make Disable always work and against the Scarf Users that outspeed this it can setup a Sub on any other mon on the enemy team and just beat it 1v1. Even on supposed to be checks like Clef. Setup a Sub, Disable that Moonblast and there you go.

There are so many choice Items around that One Sub + Disable is enough to force the opponnent to switch if they can, if not they end up with Struggle. Combo this thing with Hazards and you'll see the HP goes down in an instant.
Even again non-choice locked Pokemons it's crazy as they have only 1 Move that hits this thing hard enough to break the sub.

It's funny that the (in my Opinion) best Substitude User even gets Infiltrator to stop the opponnent to protect them behind a Sub. Will-O Wisp hitting a mon behind a Sub is crazy good.
The only Mon that outright kills it behind a Sub is Infiltrator Dragapult itself.

Dynamaxing helps, sure but as I said, I think it will get banned 100% anyway. As I'm righting this I had a crazy idea like, what about banning Disable as a whole?

Let me speak first, yes, I don't think Disable is broken or anything but Disable is and will always be a move that see only play in some cheesy ass tactics. We had the exact same set with Gengar one or two gens ago. Disable is not a skill intense move to use, everyone can click Sub and then Disable.

Like I said, I don't think it will be banned. Maybe it doesn't even need to be banned. It's just that it does not add anything to the fun of competitive pokemon. I would say people get frustrated way more over this then let's say some 90% accuracy miss or something like that.

Dragapult itself is just really strong with lots of different set which I'm not gonna go into further as this set is (in my opinion again) the best of all of them. You can even play 5 defensive mons and add this to the team as wincon alone.
 
Yeah, Moody might still be broken. I decided to try out just one battle with SubDisable Glailie and...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021511221

For what it's worth, it can be played around via setup moves, but SubTaunt can get past that. I'm wondering how a set with both Taunt and Disable would fare, since it would beat both strong unboosted moves and setup, but I feel like you really need both Protect and Substitute. But yeah, Glailie is a genuinely viable, non-gimmicky, consistent threat. Though I am very unsure that any other Moody user could be effective, Glailie just happens to have all the tools it needs to be good.
 
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If you seriously think Dracovish is the only reason people are using Ferrothorn or Seismitoad then I don't know what to tell you. Ferro has been a staple on OU teams for the past like 9 years and Seismitoad provides great team compression atm thanks to its access to rocks, its ability to check rain sweepers, and the fact that it's one of the few non-poison defensive mons that actually has access to toxic right now.
Straw man. I never said it was the only reason. I said it was a big reason, meaning it practically forces certain team comps. Sure, they have other uses and Ferrothorn in particular has been popular for awhile. However, the usage stats indicate a general necessity to bringing those pokemon specifically to counter Dracovish. Yes, they are useful in other ways good at checking other things like rain. (Speaking of rain, it would also be a lot less dangerous if it weren't for Dracovish.) Outside of Dracovish, there are often other ways to do the things they do. Yet because of the presence of Dracovish, any alternatives aren't nearly as viable.

It's not that Ferrorthorn and Seismitoad are only good because of Dracovish. It's that they are basically necessities because of Dracovish. That's the real problem here. It's become necessity rather than practicality.

This would be silly reasoning even if it were true. Dragapult beats Mega Rayquaza 1v1, does that mean Dragapult is broken and Mega Rayquaza isn't?
I don't see how this is even relevant to this discussion. First of all, this is an OU discussion. So talking about pokemon like Mega Rayquaza, which was banned to like the highest tiers possible, isn't really a scenario that would happen in OU even if Megas weren't gone in this gen. This can't and won't happen. G-Darm versus Dracovish is a thing that is actually happening in OU right now.

Second, Dragapult doesn't have anything as game breaking as Fishious Rend. It's not going to one shot most walls that aren't weak to it. It's not really good enough defensively to check much of anything that isn't a normal type move. It's a fast glass cannon that isn't even all that powerful. It's not a wall breaker that also checks some of the biggest offensive threats out there better than most walls like Dracovish. The situations between these pokemon or so incredibly different that you basically made a massive red herring. They aren't comparable.

Either way, if you're staying in against a full-health Dracovish with your Darm then you're just playing it completely wrong. Scarf Darm U-turns on Dracovish into a Water Absorb mon or Ferrothorn and does like 40% in the process, which already puts it in range to get KOd by the next Icicle Crash. Banded Darm will probably want to hard switch out to scout for the scarf, but once you know it's not scarfed you can safely OHKO it with banded Icicle Crash. Switching into Darm with Dracovish is an even worse idea due to how easy it is for them to just click U-turn and chunk you while gaining momentum, or just predict your switch and flat-out kill you with crash.
Missing the point. Almost all G-Darm builds are specifically choice locked because of Gorilla tactics. Most players don't blindly spam U-Turn the entire battle because they know that makes them vulnerable and easy to play around. U-turn only does less than half on a Choice Scarf build. Then Dracovish gets a free attack off. This strategy only works reliably at the start of the game and IF you have counters for Dracovish on your team to absorb that attack. As I basically alluded to before, this forces you to carry Dracovish counters and essentially dictates much of your team comp because otherwise you are screwed. Also, most players would only go lead Dracovish against a slow team or expected slow lead. But let's run through the rest anyway.

If scarf G-Darm uses Icicle Crash, it does either 45.7 - 54.2% or 68.5 - 80.6%. Based on my actual battles, I suspect it's the latter and that Damage Calculator is basically not updated to properly account for Gorilla Tactics damage. Either way, it's not a 1HKO. Fishious Rend is a 1HKO even if Dracovish goes second. So Dracovish wins. Same for Earthquake, except it does more like a little over half. Dracovish also wins against Flare Blitz, except it takes far less damage from that. So Dracovish can switch in on the Flare Blitz and then get a free Fishious Rend.

So play out what happens in an actual battle, when pokemon on both sides are switching and getting knocked out. If G-Darm uses anything except U-Turn when Dracovish is healthy, Dracovish lives and KOs it. If G-Darm uses U-Turn, it has to have living supporting allies that can absorb a hit or it's still a free KO for Dracovish. This becomes problematic after said counters are taken out or even just substantially weakened. If G Darm is up against a pokemon that requires Flare Blitz like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, or itself, Dracovish can come in an absorb that hit. It can either do it right away or to force a return KO. Just having the threat of Dracovish absorbing that Flare Blitz basically makes it a ton easier to play around the choice locked G-Darm. But it can also win most head to head battles with it as well.
 
So I finally got a chance to play 8th gen for a few hours. Oh wow this is by far the worst meta I have ever experienced. I've played the gen 4 Garchomp meta, gen 5 SS + Drizzle, and all those weird times when Darkrai was allowed in OU for some reason. None of that craziness compares to the absolute garbage that is early gen 8.

Dynamax is full on terrible. Literally just turns a turn of setup into a sweep. 6-1 advantage? Nope, Hawlucha just ended the game 0-1. Or Gyarados. Or Corviknight. Or anything, it doesn't fucking matter. Double anything's HP and give them 130 base power moves with UPSIDES and they will be broken. The only countermeasure seems to be Ditto I guess but even that doesn't always work. Not that Ditto being on every team is evident of a healthy meta. Using Dynamax "defensively" doesn't work because now you get 2HKOed by a boosted move instead of OHKOed and you can't even KO back because the sweeping mon still has double HP.

Then we have broken shit like Darmanitan and Dracovish. Just click a button, who needs skilled play? If someone predicts your choice lock just Dynamax lol, who needs skilled clicking. It's gen 8!

Also someone had the bright idea to unban Moody? The ability that wins games through luck alone? Yeah that's good for this game. Nothing more competitive than Sub Disable Glalie.

Oh sure, in like 6 months Smogon will ban the broken stuff but then what kind of meta are we left with? Like 25 Pokemon in OU? Even now the tier is heavily restricted to only like 30 Pokemon that make the OU cutoff. What happens when the "new toy" syndrome wears off and the meta starts centralizing around what ends up being good? There aren't even many lower tier Pokemon to pick for fun or niche counterplay thanks to Dexit fucking destroying half the Pokedex. Once Darmanitan / etc get banned we'll probably just see the meta devolve into stall, as stall loves smaller OU.

I'll be interested in seeing where this game goes in 6 months to a year once bans start happening but right now this meta is miserable.

3/10 I'd rather just play a different game.
 
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So I finally got a chance to play 8th gen for a few hours. Oh wow this is by far the worst meta I have ever experienced.

Dynamax is full on terrible. Literally just turns a turn of setup into a sweep. 6-1 advantage? Nope, Hawlucha just ended the game 0-1. Or Gyarados. Or Corviknight. Or anything, it doesn't fucking matter. Double anything's HP and give them 130 base power moves with UPSIDES and they will be broken. The only countermeasure seems to be Ditto I guess but even that doesn't always work. Not that Ditto being on every team is evident of a healthy meta. Using Dynamax "defensively" doesn't work because now you get 2HKOed by a boosted move instead of OHKOed and you can't even KO back because the sweeping mon still has double HP.

Then we have broken shit like Darmanitan and Dracovish. Just click a button, who needs skilled play? If someone predicts your choice lock just Dynamax lol, who needs skilled clicking. It's gen 8!

Also someone had the bright idea to unban Moody? The ability that wins games through luck alone? Yeah that's good for this game. I got destroyed by an Octillery in Random battles.

Oh sure, in like 6 months Smogon will ban the broken stuff but then what kind of meta are we left with? Like 25 Pokemon in OU? Even now the tier is heavily restricted to only like 30 Pokemon that make the OU cutoff. What happens when the "new toy" syndrome wears off and the meta starts centralizing around what ends up being good? There aren't even many lower tier Pokemon to pick for fun or niche counterplay thanks to Dexit fucking destroying half the Pokedex. Once Darmanitan / etc get banned we'll probably just see the meta devolve into stall, as stall loves smaller OU.

I'll be interested in seeing where this game goes in 6 months to a year once bans start happening but right now this meta is miserable.

3/10 I'd rather just play a different game.
Fun fact: Broken shit causes more centralization (see Ditto), not less. Then again who am I to doubt your sage wisdom on the state of a hypothetical meta 6 months down the line

And bans are already happening, the dynamax suspect is live
 
I hate this, because I use to use these sets back in 5th gen as part of a joke gimmick. However I have been getting away with more wins because of these that I realistically should.

Kilos said:
Grimmsnarl @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252Hp / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Swagger
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
- Substitute

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Transform
Prankster plus its high speed lets them go first most of the time even with priority, Thunder Wave cripples, Swagger sets up for Ditto or itself with Foul Play and Substitute lets it stall out Dynamax. If you switch in on a Dynamax Pokemon, you can either cripple it and switch in with a healthy ditto and proceed to sweep, cripple and kill it with hax, or force it out making it lose its stat increases.
 
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Fun fact: Broken shit causes more centralization (see Ditto), not less. Then again who am I to doubt your sage wisdom on the state of a hypothetical meta 6 months down the line

And bans are already happening, the dynamax suspect is live
Not really. Gen 7 at the start had more Pokemon in OU than it did at the end, and by the end the "top" mons were way more centralized among a few threats instead of more spread out like in the beginning. The reason for that is early on there's a lot more experimentation but later on as sets are figured out and broken things are banned what does and does not work becomes more well understood. The size of OU also is determined by available mons for counterplay, typically meaning the more Pokemon available the more usable mons there are. Examples of OU sized per gen:

Gen 1: 15 / 151
Gen 2: 24 / 251
Gen 3: 27 / 386
Gen 4: 45 / 493
Gen 5: 51 / 649
Gen 6: 58 / 721 (+ Megas)
Gen 7: 52 / 807
Gen 8: 30 / 400

At a certain point more Pokemon have diminishing returns for how many mons are viable but there's some pretty obvious correlation between dex size and viable Pokemon number. Considering we have ~400 Pokemon + a few legends and starters that are yet to be released I don't see any reason why we should be expecting the size of OU to increase considerably. We already see a similar 30 OU - 400 Pokemon numbers compared to gen 3.

Now of course bans will happen and a true comparison to gen 3 isn't fair... Power levels are much higher than they once were. So who knows what will really happen but the precedent shows that will will see a similar sized OU all gen even with bans.
 
The SubDisable Dragapult set made me far more worried about Sub than Moody Glalie ever did in its short time since being un-banned. SubDisable Dragapult is 10x worse since Hyper Voice/Boomburst can't even hit it thanks to its typing and Dragapult is an actual threat already, which Glalie is decidedly not.

But, since I felt like this needed to be done due to SubDisable/SubProtect becoming more and more common due to those two, lets run over the list of everything notable that can have Substitute-ignoring capabilities in SwSh (ignoring wether or not they currently run said move, bold for OU users):

Infiltrator:
- Whimsicott (though yeah, you'd never not run Prankster)
- Chandelure
- Noivern
- Dragapult

Bug Buzz:
- Mew
- Flygon
- Galvantula
- Ribombee
- Frosmoth

Clanging Scales:
- Kommo-o

Hyper Voice:
- Clefable
- Mew
- Gardevoir
- Togekiss
- Seismitoad
- Hydreigon
- Heliolisk
- Sylveon (Fairy-type from Pixilate)
- Primarina (Water-type from Liquid Voice, but not legal yet)
- Kommo-o

Boomburst:
- Flygon
- Noivern
- Kommo-o

- Toxtricity

Sparkling Aria:
- Primarina (Not legal yet)

Snarl:
- Crawdaunt (Adaptability)
- Toxtricity (Technician/Punk Rock)

Round:
- Literally every mon in existance. It's a universal TM (or TR, not sure which in SwSh). Basically your last resort option if nothing else.

Uproar (The move lock is the only reason I don't mark it as viable, 90 BP is plenty powerful):
- Clefable
- Gengar
- Flygon
- Togekiss
- Rotom
- Seismitoad
- Hydreigon
- Noivern
- Kommo-o
- Toxtricity

Ya'll know the best way to completely shut down Glalie and everything it tries to do? Or did people forget these hit through Sub?

TAUNT:
- I don't think I actually need to list anything here.

Whirlwind / Roar
- Phasing is still a thing too.

Haze:
- Bye Moody boosts.

Destiny Bond / Perish Song:
- If you really want to just end your suffering I suppose.

I don't think I missed anything. And oh boy there are a lot more ways to deal with Subs than I thought diving into this in depth. SubProtect Moody Glalie is just complete and utter taunt-bait for one, and Toxtricity, Kommo-o, Dragapult, Chandelure and Frosmoth just dunk on it because of excellent sound options, infiltrator, or in the case of Frosmoth, Freeze-dry doing absolutely nothing through Ice Scales + QD, along with Bug Buzz bypassing sub.

If this set makes Glalie OU, then so be it. It is no more annoying than G-Corsola: A nightmare if not accounted for, and a joke with minor preparation. I am infinitely more worried about Dragapult.
 
Not really. Gen 7 at the start had more Pokemon in OU than it did at the end, and by the end the "top" mons were way more centralized among a few threats instead of more spread out like in the beginning. The reason for that is early on there's a lot more experimentation but later on as sets are figured out and broken things are banned what does and does not work becomes more well understood. The size of OU also is determined by available mons for counterplay, typically meaning the more Pokemon available the more usable mons there are. Examples of OU sized per gen:

Gen 1: 15 / 151
Gen 2: 24 / 251
Gen 3: 27 / 386
Gen 4: 45 / 493
Gen 5: 51 / 649
Gen 6: 58 / 721 (+ Megas)
Gen 7: 52 / 807
Gen 8: 30 / 400

At a certain point more Pokemon have diminishing returns for how many mons are viable but there's some pretty obvious correlation between dex size and viable Pokemon number. Considering we have ~400 Pokemon + a few legends and starters that are yet to be released I don't see any reason why we should be expecting the size of OU to increase considerably. We already see a similar 30 OU - 400 Pokemon numbers compared to gen 3.

Now of course bans will happen and a true comparison to gen 3 isn't fair... Power levels are much higher than they once were. So who knows what will really happen but the precedent shows that will will see a similar sized OU all gen even with bans.
You seem to fail to realize that the usage threshold is 4.52% this gen rather than the previously used 3.41%, which is rather significant. If we used 3.41% we'd also have Kommo-o, Polteageist, Gengar, Hippowdon, Ribombee and Mew in OU, putting it at 37 / 400 which actually looks quite healthy for now.
 
The SubDisable Dragapult set made me far more worried about Sub than Moody Glalie ever did in its short time since being un-banned. SubDisable Dragapult is 10x worse since Hyper Voice/Boomburst can't even hit it thanks to its typing and Dragapult is an actual threat already, which Glalie is decidedly not.

But, since I felt like this needed to be done due to SubDisable/SubProtect becoming more and more common due to those two, lets run over the list of everything notable that can have Substitute-ignoring capabilities in SwSh (ignoring wether or not they currently run said move, bold for OU users):

Infiltrator:
- Whimsicott (though yeah, you'd never not run Prankster)
- Chandelure
- Noivern
- Dragapult

Bug Buzz:
- Mew
- Flygon
- Galvantula
- Ribombee
- Frosmoth

Clanging Scales:
- Kommo-o

Hyper Voice:
- Clefable
- Mew
- Gardevoir
- Togekiss
- Seismitoad
- Hydreigon
- Heliolisk
- Sylveon (Fairy-type from Pixilate)
- Primarina (Water-type from Liquid Voice, but not legal yet)
- Kommo-o

Boomburst:
- Flygon
- Noivern
- Kommo-o

- Toxtricity

Sparkling Aria:
- Primarina (Not legal yet)

Snarl:
- Crawdaunt (Adaptability)
- Toxtricity (Technician/Punk Rock)

Round:
- Literally every mon in existance. It's a universal TM (or TR, not sure which in SwSh). Basically your last resort option if nothing else.

Uproar (The move lock is the only reason I don't mark it as viable, 90 BP is plenty powerful):
- Clefable
- Gengar
- Flygon
- Togekiss
- Rotom
- Seismitoad
- Hydreigon
- Noivern
- Kommo-o
- Toxtricity

Ya'll know the best way to completely shut down Glalie and everything it tries to do? Or did people forget these hit through Sub?

TAUNT:
- I don't think I actually need to list anything here.

Whirlwind / Roar
- Phasing is still a thing too.

Haze:
- Bye Moody boosts.

Destiny Bond / Perish Song:
- If you really want to just end your suffering I suppose.

I don't think I missed anything. And oh boy there are a lot more ways to deal with Subs than I thought diving into this in depth. SubProtect Moody Glalie is just complete and utter taunt-bait for one, and Toxtricity, Kommo-o, Dragapult, Chandelure and Frosmoth just dunk on it because of excellent sound options, infiltrator, or in the case of Frosmoth, Freeze-dry doing absolutely nothing through Ice Scales + QD, along with Bug Buzz bypassing sub.

If this set makes Glalie OU, then so be it. It is no more annoying than G-Corsola: A nightmare if not accounted for, and a joke with minor preparation. I am infinitely more worried about Dragapult.
I think I demonstrated that sub-ignoring moves are ineffective against Glalie when it can Protect and use Disable. Taunt doesn't stop Glalie from boosting and Dbond can be played around. Most infiltrator mons are Ice weak, Chandelure is the closest to a good counter but if Fire Blast is disabled and Glalie has the right boosts, it can be beaten. Haze can be disabled and Glalie can beat the most common user (Pex) with some luck, besides what the hell is Pex doing to you? Phasing sounds like a good option, but keep in mind that the most viable users of Whirlwind, Mandibuzz and Hippowdon, are both weak to Ice. Roar has more users that are viable Pokémon but seriously, if shit like Kommo-o and Hydreigon are forced to use Roar, then the centrilization will just speak for itself. Plus, neither phazing nor Perish Song prevents it from just coming out again. I think the problem with Glalie is that is has no consistent counters, as anything can be beaten with enough luck.
 
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You seem to fail to realize that the usage threshold is 4.52% this gen rather than the previously used 3.41%, which is rather significant. If we used 3.41% we'd also have Kommo-o, Polteageist, Gengar, Hippowdon, Ribombee and Mew in OU, putting it at 37 / 400 which actually looks quite healthy for now.
So... as I said, we're going to see a much smaller more centralized meta.
 
Yes but maybe forcing your opponent to dyna early is part of the meta.

Maybe to force it early, deal with it with some strats / "sub par moves" and then proceed to sweep with your dyna mon. Seems like a meta to me.

Yes the games are objectively faster with dynamaxing in, but is that an objectively bad thing...

And is it bad enough to change the game.

There is a million things in the game that are objectively uncompetitive, not just subjectively uncompetitive (ex my play style does not work in this current meta - yes its a new game).

We could ban Dynamaxing, but I have a list of things that should go or change if we do. Do we want to change the base game, and if so why not fix it completely.
So... as I said, we're going to see a much smaller more centralized meta.
changing the usage cut off does not change how much they are used... doesn't matter if it is called OU or UU, it still has 4% usage or whatever, so how is that centralising?
 
You seem to fail to realize that the usage threshold is 4.52% this gen rather than the previously used 3.41%, which is rather significant. If we used 3.41% we'd also have Kommo-o, Polteageist, Gengar, Hippowdon, Ribombee and Mew in OU, putting it at 37 / 400 which actually looks quite healthy for now.
I don't really think being centralized or not is really that big of a concern. Usage is nice to know how the metagame flows but what matters more is viability. Back when there was 807 Pokemon many of the low tiers couldn't compete. There niche was too 'niche', other Pokemon outclassed them at what they excelled at and many just weren't viable. With that even being the case, I would say close to 100 extra Pokemon could be played in OU and be legitimate threats.

Right now as it stands in the SwSh meta, not so much. Many Pokemon can't get a foothold as Dynamax lets the stronger, more viable Pokemon set up and sweep whereas they can't abuse the mechanic as well. Others are hard countered by the strongest Pokemon in the tier. Dracovish, Darmanitan-G, Excadrill and the Ferrothorn/Toxapex/Corsala-G Core are the worst example of this. If you lose to most or even two of these Pokemon or if any of them do your job better, you simply will have a hard time even finding a place in the meta. Why use a defensive wall that can't survive against the hard hitting Pokemon? Why use a wall breaker that can't break through? Why use any other option that has a more reliable choice? Even the Pokemon that can beat out individual threats have issues that make them not good choices.

I would say maybe 15-20 Pokemon not on the list could see play in OU and do well. That means if there are about 50 viable choices, there are about 350 that are dead weight. I know that there are unevolved and Uber Pokemon, but in all reality that means the meta is going to feel very stagnant compared to even Ruby/Sapphire, which has a similar number of Pokemon, as many of the UU Pokemon and below had niches they could utilize well all the way throughout OU despite the fact now we still have more options with more items, abilities and the Physical/Special Split. I know this is all anecdotal, but that is my experience try out different Pokemon in OU.
 
Just going to drop my thoughts for what they're worth. Stall has to be viable for the meta to be interesting. It's extremely limiting to the metagame when it is not. As anyone who has played can see, if the balance between offense and defense is tipped at all toward offense, you have a large pool of offensive threats who can 2HKO even the very best defensive options, meaning it even more easily plows through everything else, and it all just becomes a race to who can win in 12 turns with their strongest moves.

When the pendulum swings in the favor of offense, the strategy is fun, easy, color-by-the-numbers and has a very short decision tree that anyone can follow. Because in order for an offensive strategy to be broken, it needs to 2HKO the best defensive threats--a bar that's so high that you can't miss it when it's met. If stall is overpowered, it's much harder to notice, much harder to learn, much less fun (so less are willing to learn), and the result is still a long competitive match up that at least has the appearance of a chess match even if one strategy is advantageous enough that making several missteps won't cost you the game.
 
It’s on the viability list so I guess I shouldn’t feel bad talking about it, but Alcremie is a solid answer to SubDisable Dragapult, which is tearing up the ladder right now. You’re immune to Disable (Aroma Veil) and have beefy SpDef with Recover to endure Hex. Plus you still have Fairy STAB for it.

252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Alcremie: 123-145 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
 
I think I demonstrated that sub-ignoring moves are ineffective against Glalie when it can Protect and use Disable. Taunt doesn't stop Glalie from boosting and Dbond can be played around. Most infiltrator mons are Ice weak, Chandelure is the closest to a good counter but if Fire Blast is disabled and Glalie has the right boosts, it can be beaten. Haze can be disabled and Glalie can beat the most common user (Pex) with some luck, besides what the hell is Pex doing to you? Phasing sounds like a good option, but keep in mind that the most viable users of Whirlwind, Mandibuzz and Hippowdon, are both weak to Ice. Roar has more users that are viable Pokémon but seriously, if shit like Kommo-o and Hydreigon are forced to use Roar, then the centrilization will just speak for itself. Plus, neither phazing nor Perish Song prevents it from just coming out again. I think the problem with Glalie is that is has no consistent counters, as anything can be beaten with enough luck.
Just ran into this Glalie and CM Sylveon dealed with it quite handily. Here's the replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021692359

Still a very stupid set though
 
So I've been laddering like mad for the suspect test and I've been using this team:
https://pokepast.es/c1ff895b116e507c
I didn't want to discuss the team however.
I wanted to discuss the pink blob that every team necessitates (btw I've been seeing lesser usage of Ditto as the pink/purplish blob), Reuniclus.
:reuniclus: :reuniclus:
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Stored Power
- Substitute/Recover

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Stored Power
- Recover

Personally, I prefer Magic Guard even though I have Regenerator on the team, because immunity to toxic, burn, and all kinds of nasty stuff running around there is so fucking useful. Unfortunately, there are multiple flaws. Not being able to hit Hydreigon and Grimmsnarl is such a liability with Hydreigon on 1/8 of the teams(from personal experience) it can't do diddly squat to it. But, first Regenerator set:
Normally, you'll vie for Recover because you don't want to be switching out and losing your boosts but Substitute also has it's merits. For one, getting another turn to set up or deal damage is immensely useful, and has won me games multiple times. Next, it has to ability to create 101 HP subs which most defensive mons are much too passive to get through (namely Seismitoad and Ferrothorn). Generally click Acid Armor if the opposing team has a powerful wallbreaker... wait that's every team nvm just get to +2 defense and then spam CM.
On Magic Guard I love this mon. Bulky as hell, and Toxic can't take it down. It does struggle against the rare Poleagist but you have Cinderace for that.
(also why is acid armor not in the calculator?
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 116-138 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- 67.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Reuniclus Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 315-372 (89.7 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 SpA Reuniclus Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 120-141 (34 - 40%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 68-82 (16 - 19.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Reuniclus Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 462-544 (153.4 - 180.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Corviknight Power Trip (60 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 72-86 (16.9 - 20.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Reuniclus Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 208-246 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 108-127 (25.4 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Reuniclus Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 146-172 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 76-90 (17.9 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Corviknight Power Trip (60 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 52-62 (12.2 - 14.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Power Trip Corviknight is also great, but not going over that rn.
Also, my suspect ladder alt has higher rating than my main :facepalm:
shows what determination can do
 
I waited till to right here till I lern the Meta more, but now it's time to start doing it, so here's my first post. Dynamax is being tested now and will likely be banned which I agree on.

Here's another Problem of the Metagame and it's not even GDarm, Hawlucha or Excadrill, it's

View attachment 209493

and especially the Sub + Disable Set

Dragapult Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
- Substitude
- Disable
- WoW
- Hex

This Thing is a menace.. this set won me so many games that I would have lost otherwise. Thanks to it's insane Speed it can setup a Sub on any mon bar some Scarf Users. Sub helps to make Disable always work and against the Scarf Users that outspeed this it can setup a Sub on any other mon on the enemy team and just beat it 1v1. Even on supposed to be checks like Clef. Setup a Sub, Disable that Moonblast and there you go.

There are so many choice Items around that One Sub + Disable is enough to force the opponnent to switch if they can, if not they end up with Struggle. Combo this thing with Hazards and you'll see the HP goes down in an instant.
Even again non-choice locked Pokemons it's crazy as they have only 1 Move that hits this thing hard enough to break the sub.

It's funny that the (in my Opinion) best Substitude User even gets Infiltrator to stop the opponnent to protect them behind a Sub. Will-O Wisp hitting a mon behind a Sub is crazy good.
The only Mon that outright kills it behind a Sub is Infiltrator Dragapult itself.

Dynamaxing helps, sure but as I said, I think it will get banned 100% anyway. As I'm righting this I had a crazy idea like, what about banning Disable as a whole?

Let me speak first, yes, I don't think Disable is broken or anything but Disable is and will always be a move that see only play in some cheesy ass tactics. We had the exact same set with Gengar one or two gens ago. Disable is not a skill intense move to use, everyone can click Sub and then Disable.

Like I said, I don't think it will be banned. Maybe it doesn't even need to be banned. It's just that it does not add anything to the fun of competitive pokemon. I would say people get frustrated way more over this then let's say some 90% accuracy miss or something like that.

Dragapult itself is just really strong with lots of different set which I'm not gonna go into further as this set is (in my opinion again) the best of all of them. You can even play 5 defensive mons and add this to the team as wincon alone.

Doesn't basically any Sylveon set with Hyper Voice wreck this though along with Sylveon being a decent pick in general? It's slightly niche but wish passing is never a bad thing.

It does seem like there's a lot of Disable shenanigans popping up but I haven't encountered much. I'm still busting chops with TR Dynamax Hatterene. Sweeping with her is hilariously easy. Trick Room > Dmax and set up terrain > Destroy everything they love. Steels and Dark types can't stop her because of Fairy stab and Mystical FIre. It almooost makes me sad to see Dmax (probably) going. Almost.
 
You seem to fail to realize that the usage threshold is 4.52% this gen rather than the previously used 3.41%, which is rather significant. If we used 3.41% we'd also have Kommo-o, Polteageist, Gengar, Hippowdon, Ribombee and Mew in OU, putting it at 37 / 400 which actually looks quite healthy for now.
I am confused as to why the usage percentage matters as much when you can always use UU and lower mons in OU. Yes those 6 are between 4.52% and 3.41% in terms of usage, but if they work fine in the OU meta then why are you letting that stop you from using them? Because they aren’t ranked as OU?
 
I think the issues are more so it lets the person who has the advantage keep an insane amount of momentum and that it forces all playstyles to run at least one stall Pokemon just to deal with a mechanic then there is counterplay. Just because something has a means to beat it doesn't mean it isn't overcentralizing. In addition, some of those stall means aren't that good. Protect can only be used once in secession, Para/Conf/Flinch are unrelyable on the best of days, Dig and its derivatives are subpar in most other settings dealing bad damage and are predictable, and other means of beating out set up Pokemon don't even work on them like Destiny Bond. Subsitute is a counter, but you are wasting 75% of your Pokemon's health because your opponent clicked a check box. That can still put you in a disadvantage state.
I personally don't think it being predictable is a problem, there is nothing a dynamax mon can do if you use dive/ex, they cant swap out to punish you without wasting dynamax and basically just have to press the button again. its never been a problem to have one move or even an entire mon to counter a single metagame staple, and any pokemon can potentially dynamax so your gonna be fighting dynamax pokemon just as, if not more often. i can understand the hesitancy to use these moves (cus lets face it the moves are bad) but we have seen bad pokemon raise to counter good things, I don't think we should write this off completely.
 

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