Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

I'd like to also agree that Dracovish is unhealthy. It puts in too much consistent work breaking balance and stall. Sure, we can all run a defensive water absorb but I think it warps teambuilding in a way that Dracozolt doesn't. We all know the calcs, I just don't think it's healthy for the meta to have a kill button for such little risk to the user (risk << reward). Generally moves of this power level have some significant downside (Water Spout, Explosion, Mind Blown)...
Balance and stall don't even exist rn.
Maybe after the Dynamax ban but tbh, given that Seismistoad is being run everywhere due to Jordy I honestly don't have that much of a problem.
But, moving on from that, I have a custom spread specifically atoned to Dracovish
Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 108 Def / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Filler
- Something to hit big toad

108 allows you to get out of 2hko threshold from opposing draco after rocks.
Definitely shouldn't be your Dracovish counter but can check opposing draco in a pinch
 
Can confirm SubDisable Pult is awesome. It'll be so much better post-Dynamax when they can't break the Disable lock. Being able to Sub against Darm and disable Icicle Crash to force it out is hilarious!


20 Spe outspeeds Timid Hydreigon so you can disable Dark Pulse. Not sure about the 12 SpD though.

I have seen a variant of the set that runs Draco over Hex to hit Sub Hydreigon (Infiltrator) once Dark Pulse is disabled.
Nothing exceptional tbh , makes the sub live max spe atk tbolt from rotom scarf , outside of dpult itself , common faster threat are scarf rotom,dracovish,hydreigon and darm
 
idk if this is the right place to post this, but moody is pretty broken, even with the removal of evasion boosts. I'm a really really bad player and i just reached top 10 spamming moody glalie:
View attachment 209256
Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Disable
- Freeze-Dry

It takes no skill, serves as a ticking time bomb from turn 1 it's in, invalidates good teambuilding because it's independent of the other 5 mons, and is literally randomness incarnate. And for a mechanic that as i said is completely dependent on randomness, it doesn't even matter most of the time because you gain a net positive of +1 boost every turn and can just stall it out to victory, because moody puts your opponent on a timer and forces them to be the ones actively trying to stop your snowballing snowball. And as long as you don't play like the offspring of an ape that drank during pregnancy, you're almost guaranteed to set up with it every game. There are very few pokemon in the game that can even wall you because you can just sit behind your sub, disable their move that breaks your sub, spam protect every other turn, and just play the waiting game because again, your opponent is the one on the timer, not you. I assume the octopus thing is broken with moody too, I just haven't bothered to play it yet. Jesus was black, ronald reagan was the devil. thank you for your time and good night.
Yea, I faced off against this just now and good lord it was awful. To be fair, I got frozen twice by first use of Freeze Dry against the mons I sent out (DISABLE DRAGAPULT WOULD HAVE BEAT IT), and then crit, but it was still very VERY annoying.
 
Dracovish is the new Dugtrio/Heatran for me; I hate both its design and how stupidly strong it is. I'm not going to rush to call for a ban, but I would feel no sadness if I never have to see it in OU again.

EDIT: Moody has no business being legal either; even without the Evasion or Accuracy boosts/drops, it's simply not fun to have to deal with a Sub/Protect abuse mon like that. I'd say Moody is on par with Arena Trap; few of the Pokemon who have it are particularly uncompetitive on their own, but the Ability itself is what takes them to another level of intolerable.
 
I’ll steer clear of discussing the specific pitfalls of the current metagame, which have already been dissected in a hundred different ways, but I do want to raise a few indicators of a healthy metagame that we should pay close attention to coming into an inevitable suspect:

Rate of forfeit: anecdotally I’ve noticed a huge uptick in the number of early forfeits following an unexpected Dynamax KO – yes it’s possible that the opponent has nothing to counter and that playing on would be delaying the inevitable, but it says a lot about how frustrating the game is becoming for players when these unexpected win-cons are so commonplace. This could be symptomatic of a new metagame where players are still experimenting with new teams and strategies and care less about sustaining their rating, but I’m of the theory that the unpredictability and volatility of dynamax is making the metagame less enjoyable.

Win-loss ratio: I play a lot of random battles and now that I’ve racked up a representative enough sample of gen 8 matches, I’ve noticed my win-loss ratio is 60% while in gen 7 it was 75%. It could be that my playstyle just doesn’t lend itself to this new metagame, I’m being more careless/experimental or generally suck at dynamaxing; I think the more likely reason is that dynamax has made finding a win-con less about strategy and more about dumb luck. Yes, you can argue this favours both parties but if the game becomes more about chance and opportunity, even the top players are going to see their win-rate decline and we may as well be playing a heads or tails simulator.
 
The OU Council has no plans on this because, as re-iterated many times:

1) Pokemon are caught at different Dynamax levels
2) Pokemon cannot have their Dynamax levels lower
3) This is, at best, a terrible band-aid attempt to try to keep something that (in my opinion) is broken.

Please stop suggesting this (even though I'm sure someone will in another 2 pages)...
I agree with banning Dynamax, but c'mon. You're arguing that a reduced power (which is in the game) won't work because that's not how it always is in the game. "Staying true to the game" is your argument to completely remove something from the game.

But both sides are using increasingly stupid arguments here now. Just have to wait and see what the suspects lead to (which will be a ban of course).
 
Let's talk about a mon which has somewhat flown under the radar:

:sm/Xatu:

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 84 SpA / 8 Spe
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- U-turn/Defog (post-home)/Giga Drain
- Psychic/Giga Drain

Xatu is underrated on certain Balance/Semi-stall builds as hazard removal isn't as ubiquitous compared to USUM. It also works in Xatu's favor that Ferrothorn is less likely to run Gyro Ball than is previous generations and the continued rise of Seismitoad as a rocker. Is Xatu top tier? Absolutely not, it lets a ton of dangerous shit in and lacks decent bulk or typing. It will also require a hazard remover along side it because of an unfortunate rocks weakness. This mon will probably end up at either C+/B- after Home. C rank right now. Certainly better than coal monster or club penguin, and yes, I am cognizant of the fact that those Pokémon fill different roles.

The Xatu above is faster than banded Dracovish and the Special Attack guarantees a 2HKO against 252/252+ Ferrothorn with Heat Wave. The rest is invested in Health and Def in an attempt to mitigate its dreadful natural bulk. Roost is for recovery. Psychic is for Toxapex and Hawlucha after D-max gets the ban hammer. U-turn is nice for pivoting purposes, though Defog will be the best option once Home comes out. You can run Giga Drain if you hate Gastrodon, though it isn't the best option in general since you already beast toad with Psychic. I tried a spread with speed for Jolly Excadrill, but it lacks the bulk to take it on effectively.

I unfortunately did not save any replays with this set and am ready to accept castigation for my hypocrisy regarding the issue of requesting replays for outlandish shit. They will be added to this post in time. Please bear with me until then. I wouldn't be surprised if someone else posted about Xatu in this thread, but I really don't want to read 35+ pages about why Dynamaxing needs to get the boot.
 
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I’ll steer clear of discussing the specific pitfalls of the current metagame, which have already been dissected in a hundred different ways, but I do want to raise a few indicators of a healthy metagame that we should pay close attention to coming into an inevitable suspect:

Rate of forfeit: anecdotally I’ve noticed a huge uptick in the number of early forfeits following an unexpected Dynamax KO – yes it’s possible that the opponent has nothing to counter and that playing on would be delaying the inevitable, but it says a lot about how frustrating the game is becoming for players when these unexpected win-cons are so commonplace. This could be symptomatic of a new metagame where players are still experimenting with new teams and strategies and care less about sustaining their rating, but I’m of the theory that the unpredictability and volatility of dynamax is making the metagame less enjoyable.

Win-loss ratio: I play a lot of random battles and now that I’ve racked up a representative enough sample of gen 8 matches, I’ve noticed my win-loss ratio is 60% while in gen 7 it was 75%. It could be that my playstyle just doesn’t lend itself to this new metagame, I’m being more careless/experimental or generally suck at dynamaxing; I think the more likely reason is that dynamax has made finding a win-con less about strategy and more about dumb luck. Yes, you can argue this favours both parties but if the game becomes more about chance and opportunity, even the top players are going to see their win-rate decline and we may as well be playing a heads or tails simulator.
I agree with the forfeit rate but win-loss ratio isn't exactly comparable from gen to gen especially in one this early.
I got around a 1.1 ish win-rate ratio in gen 7 but in gen 8 right now I have a much higher win-rate ratio of 1.5
But, obviously I was much more skilled in gen 7 than gen 8. 'Course, before an anti-dynamaxer says it was because I clicked the "big red button to win" (lmao it's actually a black box surrounded by white) I'll have to say since you're clamoring for dynamaxing's dismiss because it makes games broken and too easy wouldn't the same logic work the other way. And no, I'm definitely not saying this justifies Dynamaxing just fending off arguments in advance. Before I get sidetracked, let me wrap up this argument. This early in the metagame especially with the imminent ban of Dynamaxing doesn't really tell much; even if this continued later on after Dynamaxing's ban (if Dynamax stays then I have no idea what happened) it wouldn't necessarily mean the generation is bad. Say Gen 5 had an average win-rate ratio of 1.1 from 200 randomly picked people but Gen 6 had 0.9 from the same people assuming they played throughout the whole generation, that doesn't necessarily prove Gen 6 is worse. Every gen either has a "worse" win to lose ratio or a better one randomly picked from 200 people. That being said, fucking Gen 6 tho.
:blobshrug:
 
It has been hinted in this thread before that a suspect for Dynamax will happen. I'd say let's hold off on further arguing over whether or not to ban it here until then, but who am I kidding, someone's probably going to do so anyway about five posts from now.

Anyway, Xatu seems interesting as a Magic Bounce user. Heat Wave and U-Turn are a couple of tricks Hatterene doesn't have but could use big time. If Xatu had better bulk and fewer weaknesses to common attacking types, I could see it being a staple of stall or balance.
 
It has been hinted in this thread before that a suspect for Dynamax will happen. I'd say let's hold off on further arguing over whether or not to ban it here until then, but who am I kidding, someone's probably going to do so anyway about five posts from now.

Anyway, Xatu seems interesting as a Magic Bounce user. Heat Wave and U-Turn are a couple of tricks Hatterene doesn't have but could use big time. If Xatu had better bulk and fewer weaknesses to common attacking types, I could see it being a staple of stall or balance.
lmao who are you kidding stall and balance don't even exist anymore.
Anytime I, or for that matter, anyone tries to build stall/balance but trying to mantain something that'd work well it just becomes something offensive. It's very hard to be anti-meta rn imo
 
Rate of forfeit: anecdotally I’ve noticed a huge uptick in the number of early forfeits following an unexpected Dynamax KO –
I have noticed this too. Whenever a Dmax completely shuts someone down in an unexpected way such as breaking choice lock, breaking disable, becoming immune to moves like heat crash, bypassing destiny bond, i can go on.... usually illicit a forfeit. and I am a culprit of this too
 
I have noticed this too. Whenever a Dmax completely shuts someone down in an unexpected way such as breaking choice lock, breaking disable, becoming immune to moves like heat crash, bypassing destiny bond, i can go on.... usually illicit a forfeit. and I am a culprit of this too
Yes but maybe forcing your opponent to dyna early is part of the meta.

Maybe to force it early, deal with it with some strats / "sub par moves" and then proceed to sweep with your dyna mon. Seems like a meta to me.

Yes the games are objectively faster with dynamaxing in, but is that an objectively bad thing...

And is it bad enough to change the game.

There is a million things in the game that are objectively uncompetitive, not just subjectively uncompetitive (ex my play style does not work in this current meta - yes its a new game).

We could ban Dynamaxing, but I have a list of things that should go or change if we do. Do we want to change the base game, and if so why not fix it completely.
 
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lmao who are you kidding stall and balance don't even exist anymore.
Anytime I, or for that matter, anyone tries to build stall/balance but trying to mantain something that'd work well it just becomes something offensive. It's very hard to be anti-meta rn imo
I have a lot of issues with this, but I'll keep it short

Stall and balance still exist, though these play-styles are threatened by the existence of Dynamax. There have been several posts in this thread about this, thus I will not go into depth about them.

Sand balance, from what I've seen, is pretty damn good though suffers from the prevalence of rain. Full stall suffers somewhat from the departure of Chansey and the introduction of G-Darm and Dracovish; however, certain adaptations have been made such as the rise of Seismitoad on full stall (great mon on that archetype btw) to deal with shit like Baraskewda and the Dracovish/zolt and the exploration of Rotom-H because of Darm and access to HDB. These play-styles will further adapt to properly dispatch of new meta trends, especially after a Dynamax ban and a Wobbuffet retest. Stall and balance aren't dead, but gasping for air.

It really isn't difficult to be anti-meta right now considering how much unexplored shit there is. The best example of this is Dragapult, which has a superb movepool (minus a better Physical Ghost move) and decent stats all around. New sets and optimal spreads are being discovered daily, the best of which, Hex and Hex+Disable, haven't exactly caught on yet. There are a lot of mons both old and new which I suspect have potential in SwSh. I could add more here.

Stall Lives.jpg
 

Attachments

Moody has no business being legal either; even without the Evasion or Accuracy boosts/drops, it's simply not fun to have to deal with a Sub/Protect abuse mon like that.
I hate this logic. "Fun" has no business determining (which I will differentiate from influencing) the legality of pokemon/abilities/moves/etc. You're reacting in an emotional manner and lashing out, I get it. However, in this situation the question we should be asking isn't "is this fun," (mostly because it will never be fun for the person losing so if that's the main question, we may as well ban G/D-maxing, Dragapult, Choice items, etc) but we should instead ask "is this game breaking?" The answer to that I don't actually know, but I think it's a more fair interpretation of "is it busted," because we know that people for some reason are arguing that G/D-maxing isn't busted, so you'll always have people on the wrong side; but when framed as "is it game breaking," that implies there is an inherent problem with the mechanic (which there might be), to the point it should be reworked (which for our purposes is off the table) or removed. Until we can figure out if Moody is still a game breaking mechanic, I think it's fair to let it stay (although I would have no problem with a some sort of action like a suspect to determine this).

TLDR: Don't ban things because you're not having fun when you're losing, ban things that are truly messed up, and that's what we need to figure out before we jump on the ban wagon.

Rate of forfeit: it's up
I think it's an interesting thing to note, but I'm not very surprised tbh. I look at it two ways:

A) G/D-maxing is very polarising already - let alone in game, so people getting steamrolled by it don't feel the need to play out the game because of how far behind they are.
B) It's up because people are trying out new teams with the game being - you know - days old and are encouraged to drop when they find a piece of the meta they cannot answer because they did not account for it, so they can adjust their team accordingly.

TLDR: It's likely just a natural progression of the new meta, and the forfeit rate should go down over time. But cool thing to point out!
 
Anyone tried out defensive Kommo-o?

Defense is actually its highest stat, so STAB Body Press from max defense Kommo-o actually hits significantly harder than an Aura Sphere from special Kommo-o or Dragon Claw from a physical set.

Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Abilty: whatever
EVs 252 HP / 252 Defense / whatever
Impish nature
-Body Press
-Dragon Tail
-Stealth rock
-Toxic

Hit hard, phase, setup hazards, spread status and switch into this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o in Rain: 123-144 (34.7 - 40.6%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Body Press will 2HKO fish after rocks. Just pray they didn't click Outrage.
Yup. You also have decent options in iron defense to boost body press, autotomize (double dance set), draco to hit dragapult if they come thinking they wall you, flash cannon ( becomes max steelspike to boost defense), omniboost...lots of options depending on what your team needs. My favourite rn is leftovers with clangorous, body press, flash cannon and draco but the one i had most success with was overcoat in a sand team, very solid stealth rocker.
 
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TLDR: Don't ban things because you're not having fun when you're losing, ban things that are truly messed up, and that's what we need to figure out before we jump on the ban wagon.
Allow me to clarify: when I said "not fun", I meant "truly messed up". I think Moody (especially when combined with Protect and Substitute) gives a very unfair advantage to the Pokemon with it, since it gives a net increase of +1 to your stats every turn, and when you factor in Protect and Substitute, you can basically sit for 3-5 turns building up said stat boosts. Now, if a Glalie were to end up with +4 Attack and -2 Speed after 2 turns, then it might not do itself any favors, but the odds of that happening are 1 in 400. Ironically, Dynamaxing is one of the few ways to do much of anything substantive against Moody users, and when you have to rely on another potentially-uncompetitive mechanic in order to counter it, that's a good sign it's uncompetitive itself.
 
I really don't understand the claims that Dracovish is broken, especially with freaking G-Darm still running around. IMO it's basically functioning as Medicham right now; it's absurdly strong and absolutely smashes slower teams in addition to usually getting at least a kill or two versus most other team builds with a little help from VoltTurn partners, but it's also extremely easy to revenge kill thanks to its lackluster speed that not even a scarf can really fix, and it has a select few common or common-ish defensive mons that can withstand a few hits from it (Ferrothorn, Seismitoad) or are immune to its nuke move (aforementioned Seismitoad, Jellicent, Vaporeon).

Now if we're open to discussing Darm being unhealthy, I'm all ears. Scarf in particular is the set that I think completely pushes it over the edge; the amount of constraint that thing puts on teambuilding to ensure you don't just get flat-out swept by Icicle Crash or Flare Blitz once your Rotom gets chunked by one or two U-turns is absolutely absurd. It's nearly as strong as Dracovish and also way, way harder to revenge kill; it outspeeds the entire unboosted meta, has U-turn to punish its already extremely limited switch-ins, and can only be threatened with a speed tie at best from Ditto. And with this gen bounding with spinners, defoggers, court changers, and Magic Bounce mons, it's not even that hard to keep rocks off the field for it in most cases.
 
Also copperajah is a nice suicide lead, i’ve been using it with shuca berry to beat exca (bring to sash with heat crash and then finish with gmax steel surge, setting steelth rocks permanently):

On that note, Chople Berry is also useful on Copperajah to guarantee the matchup against Defog + Body Press Corviknight.
 

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This time I'm posting the usage stats with just the mons that have 4.52% usage and above, as these are the mons that will start off in OU, while everything lower be usable in UU Alpha.

Code:
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Dragapult          | 36.22021% | 921374 | 35.663% | 660270 | 34.170% |
| 2    | Darmanitan-Galar   | 33.86691% | 845528 | 32.727% | 639910 | 33.117% |
| 3    | Excadrill          | 27.33934% | 647707 | 25.070% | 503401 | 26.052% |
| 4    | Corviknight        | 24.87415% | 624516 | 24.173% | 464274 | 24.027% |
| 5    | Ferrothorn         | 24.87397% | 601620 | 23.286% | 499486 | 25.849% |
| 6    | Ditto              | 20.95252% | 485493 | 18.792% | 324063 | 16.771% |
| 7    | Gyarados           | 16.24761% | 386563 | 14.962% | 271719 | 14.062% |
| 8    | Cinderace          | 15.56380% | 405609 | 15.700% | 304119 | 15.739% |
| 9    | Grimmsnarl         | 15.35037% | 396861 | 15.361% | 297956 | 15.420% |
| 10   | Corsola-Galar      | 15.16613% | 388387 | 15.033% | 311135 | 16.102% |
| 11   | Rotom-Wash         | 14.77904% | 346122 | 13.397% | 286766 | 14.841% |
| 12   | Toxapex            | 13.52855% | 333812 | 12.921% | 262702 | 13.595% |
| 13   | Aegislash          | 13.50231% | 332485 | 12.869% | 241280 | 12.487% |
| 14   | Hatterene          | 12.70359% | 318647 | 12.334% | 238932 | 12.365% |
| 15   | Hydreigon          | 12.14223% | 282357 | 10.929% | 212233 | 10.984% |
| 16   | Dracovish          | 11.92270% | 287527 | 11.129% | 218752 | 11.321% |
| 17   | Toxtricity         | 10.92490% | 290826 | 11.257% | 205602 | 10.640% |
| 18   | Barraskewda        |  9.39838% | 251096 |  9.719% | 173026 |  8.954% |
| 19   | Tyranitar          |  8.61463% | 210848 |  8.161% | 166683 |  8.626% |
| 20   | Pelipper           |  8.19664% | 198975 |  7.702% | 178933 |  9.260% |
| 21   | Seismitoad         |  7.23395% | 162603 |  6.294% | 134726 |  6.972% |
| 22   | Clefable           |  7.12785% | 162871 |  6.304% | 125676 |  6.504% |
| 23   | Hawlucha           |  6.33132% | 154211 |  5.969% | 105540 |  5.462% |
| 24   | Polteageist        |  6.05901% | 161558 |  6.253% | 108653 |  5.623% |
| 25   | Conkeldurr         |  5.93646% | 140911 |  5.454% | 107156 |  5.546% |
| 26   | Dracozolt          |  5.80743% | 143643 |  5.560% | 105355 |  5.452% |
| 27   | Gengar             |  5.32119% | 140479 |  5.437% | 97199  |  5.030% |
| 28   | Mandibuzz          |  5.10345% | 115892 |  4.486% | 88759  |  4.593% |
| 29   | Togekiss           |  4.52508% | 113864 |  4.407% | 84388  |  4.367% |
| 30   | Centiskorch        |  4.52203% | 136720 |  5.292% | 100185 |  5.185% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +

Code:
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Dragapult          | 34.77819% | 921374 | 35.663% | 660270 | 34.170% |
| 2    | Darmanitan-Galar   | 34.63651% | 845528 | 32.727% | 639910 | 33.117% |
| 3    | Ditto              | 33.01591% | 485493 | 18.792% | 324063 | 16.771% |
| 4    | Excadrill          | 32.75617% | 647707 | 25.070% | 503401 | 26.052% |
| 5    | Corviknight        | 32.13087% | 624516 | 24.173% | 464274 | 24.027% |
| 6    | Ferrothorn         | 28.40382% | 601620 | 23.286% | 499486 | 25.849% |
| 7    | Rotom-Wash         | 19.51660% | 346122 | 13.397% | 286766 | 14.841% |
| 8    | Gyarados           | 18.54957% | 386563 | 14.962% | 271719 | 14.062% |
| 9    | Hydreigon          | 17.63615% | 282357 | 10.929% | 212233 | 10.984% |
| 10   | Toxapex            | 17.42956% | 333812 | 12.921% | 262702 | 13.595% |
| 11   | Aegislash          | 15.62743% | 332485 | 12.869% | 241280 | 12.487% |
| 12   | Hatterene          | 15.49125% | 318647 | 12.334% | 238932 | 12.365% |
| 13   | Clefable           | 15.28517% | 162871 |  6.304% | 125676 |  6.504% |
| 14   | Grimmsnarl         | 13.80130% | 396861 | 15.361% | 297956 | 15.420% |
| 15   | Cinderace          | 13.63177% | 405609 | 15.700% | 304119 | 15.739% |
| 16   | Seismitoad         | 13.20005% | 162603 |  6.294% | 134726 |  6.972% |
| 17   | Corsola-Galar      | 12.69631% | 388387 | 15.033% | 311135 | 16.102% |
| 18   | Dracovish          | 12.43686% | 287527 | 11.129% | 218752 | 11.321% |
| 19   | Tyranitar          |  9.94552% | 210848 |  8.161% | 166683 |  8.626% |
| 20   | Mandibuzz          |  9.42030% | 115892 |  4.486% | 88759  |  4.593% |
| 21   | Toxtricity         |  9.22502% | 290826 | 11.257% | 205602 | 10.640% |
| 22   | Pelipper           |  7.76577% | 198975 |  7.702% | 178933 |  9.260% |
| 23   | Barraskewda        |  7.05556% | 251096 |  9.719% | 173026 |  8.954% |
| 24   | Conkeldurr         |  6.58137% | 140911 |  5.454% | 107156 |  5.546% |
| 25   | Hawlucha           |  6.27095% | 154211 |  5.969% | 105540 |  5.462% |
| 26   | Rotom-Heat         |  5.75952% | 87298  |  3.379% | 71794  |  3.715% |
| 27   | Dracozolt          |  5.66516% | 143643 |  5.560% | 105355 |  5.452% |
| 28   | Mimikyu            |  5.54591% | 97463  |  3.772% | 69012  |  3.572% |
| 29   | Dugtrio            |  5.43636% | 101633 |  3.934% | 77751  |  4.024% |
| 30   | Bisharp            |  5.33964% | 85092  |  3.294% | 61439  |  3.180% |
| 31   | Togekiss           |  5.29094% | 113864 |  4.407% | 84388  |  4.367% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +

Code:
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Ditto              | 42.62249% | 485493 | 18.792% | 324063 | 16.771% |
| 2    | Corviknight        | 40.45125% | 624516 | 24.173% | 464274 | 24.027% |
| 3    | Excadrill          | 33.95677% | 647707 | 25.070% | 503401 | 26.052% |
| 4    | Dragapult          | 32.70835% | 921374 | 35.663% | 660270 | 34.170% |
| 5    | Darmanitan-Galar   | 31.48085% | 845528 | 32.727% | 639910 | 33.117% |
| 6    | Ferrothorn         | 28.38106% | 601620 | 23.286% | 499486 | 25.849% |
| 7    | Clefable           | 22.56488% | 162871 |  6.304% | 125676 |  6.504% |
| 8    | Toxapex            | 20.70026% | 333812 | 12.921% | 262702 | 13.595% |
| 9    | Rotom-Wash         | 18.65980% | 346122 | 13.397% | 286766 | 14.841% |
| 10   | Seismitoad         | 17.22325% | 162603 |  6.294% | 134726 |  6.972% |
| 11   | Hydreigon          | 16.98151% | 282357 | 10.929% | 212233 | 10.984% |
| 12   | Gyarados           | 16.68533% | 386563 | 14.962% | 271719 | 14.062% |
| 13   | Aegislash          | 16.00095% | 332485 | 12.869% | 241280 | 12.487% |
| 14   | Hatterene          | 15.76903% | 318647 | 12.334% | 238932 | 12.365% |
| 15   | Grimmsnarl         | 12.97473% | 396861 | 15.361% | 297956 | 15.420% |
| 16   | Cinderace          | 11.63623% | 405609 | 15.700% | 304119 | 15.739% |
| 17   | Corsola-Galar      | 11.07196% | 388387 | 15.033% | 311135 | 16.102% |
| 18   | Dracovish          | 10.74365% | 287527 | 11.129% | 218752 | 11.321% |
| 19   | Tyranitar          | 10.57290% | 210848 |  8.161% | 166683 |  8.626% |
| 20   | Mandibuzz          | 10.20208% | 115892 |  4.486% | 88759  |  4.593% |
| 21   | Rotom-Heat         |  8.27123% | 87298  |  3.379% | 71794  |  3.715% |
| 22   | Toxtricity         |  7.80059% | 290826 | 11.257% | 205602 | 10.640% |
| 23   | Kommo-o            |  6.42836% | 81565  |  3.157% | 58350  |  3.020% |
| 24   | Togekiss           |  6.39365% | 113864 |  4.407% | 84388  |  4.367% |
| 25   | Hawlucha           |  6.07375% | 154211 |  5.969% | 105540 |  5.462% |
| 26   | Pelipper           |  5.93963% | 198975 |  7.702% | 178933 |  9.260% |
| 27   | Dugtrio            |  5.85490% | 101633 |  3.934% | 77751  |  4.024% |
| 28   | Barraskewda        |  5.80878% | 251096 |  9.719% | 173026 |  8.954% |
| 29   | Mimikyu            |  5.57173% | 97463  |  3.772% | 69012  |  3.572% |
| 30   | Conkeldurr         |  5.51374% | 140911 |  5.454% | 107156 |  5.546% |
| 31   | Dracozolt          |  5.17226% | 143643 |  5.560% | 105355 |  5.452% |
| 32   | Hippowdon          |  4.75450% | 52662  |  2.038% | 44403  |  2.298% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +

I will be discussing the 1695 usage stats, which Kalolokki has graciously put into a single image that I will link below:

:dragapult:
Dragapult is a big threat in OU thanks to the combination of its speed tier, its coverage and power with choice specs, and then having access to U-turn, allowing it to act as the fastest non-scarfed pivot in the tier. Dragapult's speed tier allows it to force out offensive mons, which then leads to the opponent switching in a bulkier mon like Mandibuzz. From there, Dragapult can deal big damage or U-turn into a teammate to abuse the bulky switchin. Dragapult is also a good revenge killer that can outspeed big threats including Choice Scarf Dracovish. Finally, a new Sub + Hex set is starting to see some usage which utilizes Sub + Disable in order to prevent the opponent from breaking Dragapult's substitute the second time onwards. Dragapult can then proceed to status the opponent and start firing Hex's to break the opposing team.

:darmanitan-galar:
Darmanitan is an incredible wallbreaker thanks to its signature ability, Gorilla Tactics, alongside its perfect coverage. Choice Scarf variants are able to outspeed most of the tier and hit incredibly hard with Icicle Crash, Flare Blitz, or Earthquake. Similar to Dragapult, because Darmanitan hits so hard, it's very likely that the opponent sends in a bulky switch in, which Darmanitan can U-turn against to bring in another teammate. With Choice Band sets, to put it bluntly, nothing is a safe switch in. Everything can be 1-2HKO'd by Icicle Crash, Flare Blitz, or Earthquake with Stealth Rock. However, if something is out of range of one of those three moves, then Darmanitan can use a very strong U-turn to grab momentum instead. One can technically outsplay Darmanitan for a while by going into Flying-types and Levitate mons on Earthquake, Toxapex or Water/Fire-types on Icicle Crash/Flare Blitz, but because Dynamax can allow Darmanitan to get out of being choice locked, the option to outplay it suddenly gets extremely hard. It does lose a significant amount of power, but losing a defensive mon because of a single turn to dynamax can be fatal at times.

:ditto:
Ditto is back to doing what it did late in SM OU, but thanks to dynamax, its potential has never been better. It punishes offensive mons and now has the option to break out of its choice lock thanks to dynamax. Ditto is great speed control while also keeping opposing set up sweepers in check while simultaneously punishing the opponent and potentially reverse sweeping them.

:excadrill:
Excadrill got lucky this generation with Rapid Spin seeing a huge buff. Rapid Spin was not only boosted up to base 50 power, but increases speed as well. A good example of Rapid Spin's speed boost being annoying, would be if one tried to switch in Rotom-Wash directly into an Excadrill as it uses Rapid Spin. The problem here is that Excadrill now outspeeds Scarf Rotom-Wash, meaning you need to be prepared to take damage before 1HKO'ing them back. Rapid Spin's boosted power can hit decently hard now too, with +2 Rapid Spin dealing 44%-52% to an uninvested Rotom-Wash. Both Sand Rush and Mold Breaker sets utilizing Swords Dance can get dangerous very quickly. Mold Breaker sets are able to get past Rotom-Wash/Heat, and Sand Rush sets are able to outspeed the entire tier.

:corviknight:
This generation's bird is incredible. While sporting the same type is Skarmory, Corviknight can provide solid defensive utility while also providing Defog. Corviknight can be a great check to Excadrill, and if it has Bulk Up, then it can continue to handle SD Excadrill and other physical attackers. Corviknight also has some additional helpful moves, including U-turn to grab momentum, and Taunt to prevent mons like Ferrothorn from setting up hazards. Bulk Up in particular can turn Corviknight into a sweeper that also utilizes Max-Brave Bird to increase Corviknight's speed.

:ferrothorn:
Ferrothorn is an excellent support mon that can provide Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Knock Off in addition to its defensive utility. It can check water types like Barraskewda and Gyarados, and because there are no mega pokemon and no z-move items, Knock Off becomes very helpful as everything is prone to losing its item. Aside from Toxapex and Eldegoss (the only regenerator mons), Knock Off can remove leftovers/black sludge/heavy-duty boots and force pokemon like Mandibuzz to use up a turn to heal up with Roost.

:rotom-wash:
Scarf Rotom-Wash provides great speed control while also being capable of providing fast Volt Switches. Ground-types being less common and no longer mandatory allows Rotom-Wash to have an easier time clicking Volt Switch. Rotom can also provide an emergency Choice Scarf Thunder Wave to paralyze fast threats before they set up too much. Finally, Trick has become much more threatening this gen because no pokemon is immune to it anymore. You can Trick away your choice scarf to anything and this usually means crippling a defensive mon as they aren't suited to being locked into a single move, not to mention they usually aren't heavily invested in speed. Defensively, Rotom-Wash can switch into Sand Rush Excadrill and Corviknight, both of which are common as you can see above.

:gyarados:
Gyarados is a formidable sweeper that became much more out of control thanks to dynamax. Not only does it become much harder to kill, but Max Bounce can boost its speed, making it harder to revenge kill. On top of this, Moxie can help Gyarados sweep as it continues to use max moves to get KO's while stacking boosts.

:hydreigon:
Hydreigon received Nasty Plot this generation and also has the added benefit of every Fairy-type being weak to Flash Cannon. There aren't too many Dark resists, but if you ignore Fairy-types, then the remaining notable Dark resists are Hydreigon, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Obstagoon, Umbreon, Bisharp and Kommo-o. Among this list, the defensive mons (Umbreon and Mandibuzz) are unable to break Hydreigon's Substitute, and the remaining offensive mons outside of Bisharp don't appreciate tanking a Flash Cannon as they all lack recovery. Sub + Nasty Plot + Dark Pulse + Flash Cannon is the common set, and Hydreigon is able to set up a Substitute on defensive mons like Toxapex and Seismitoad, and then proceed to use Nasty Plot and wallbreak/sweep from there. It also has the additional benefit of not immediately being threatened by Ditto, as Flash Cannon + Dark Pulse is not enough to KO Hydreigon.

:toxapex:
Toxapex continues to be difficult to KO thanks to solid bulk + regenerator, and it is able to help check a few set up sweepers like non-EQ Gyarados, Corviknight, and Barraskewda. Dynamax helps the aforementioned mons sweep, and Toxapex being able to Haze the boosts away is a very nice way of dealing with them. Toxapex is also able to deal with some strong attackers, including Darmanitan-Galar not locked into EQ, Aegislash, and Cinderace. Baneful Bunker can help punish U-turn users such as Dragapult and Darmanitan-Galar, while also being capable of stalling out a turn of dynamax and/or weather.

I'll put the usage stats for 1695 in the first post of this thread as well.
 
Allow me to clarify: when I said "not fun", I meant "truly messed up"
I hope you can see how that's not how I took it, but apologies if I mis-attributed your argument.

Dynamaxing is one of the few ways to do much of anything substantive against Moody users, and when you have to rely on another potentially-uncompetitive mechanic in order to counter it, that's a good sign it's uncompetitive itself.
I disagree with this, but as having not done any testing with and/or against Moody Glalie, you're welcome to take my opinion with a grain of salt. Now, because of that, I would normally not comment on this, but:

A) I find it the argument that G/D-maxing is one of a handful of ways to deal with it unpersuasive; not because that is or isn't true, but because that argument can be attributed to many Pokemon/Items/etc (eg "One of the few ways to deal with Z-Moves is to use Knock Off to get rid of the item," which is technically true but a bad argument).
B) The latter part of the above ("uncompetitive mechanics" being the most efficient way to deal with another "potentially-uncompetitive mechanic" makes that latter no longer only "potentially-uncompetitive") I just don't think is true. Because we know that G/D-maxing is where the meta is, the default answer to a formidable foe (in this case Glalie) will always be the dominating mechanic (in this case G/D-maxing). I won't hold that against the Moody mechanic, but I wouldn't be against revisiting a suspect when a decision on G/D-maxing is made.

I put this in spoiler because I thought it was confusing but doesn't contradict or dilute my point on B), so if you're interesting to know more on why I think a suspect on Moody is okay after a G/D-maxing suspect, here it is:

I think the lack of the decision on a truly game-altering mechanic will cloud our ability to make hard justification on a suspect of Moody; that said, if the decision on G/D-maxing is that it is not banned, I think we will be able to look at Moody under the lens of a G/D-maxing meta, potentially being able to hold a quick suspect via the data collected since the introduction of Moody to the time a pro-Max decision is - in this hypothetical - made. Since currently it may or may not be banned, all other decisions of the entire meta are sort of back-seated in a way because of how centralised we - the collective - are on G/D-maxing (whether for better or worse will be the decision of a suspect). Hope that makes sense.

As I see it, if your argument is "Moody is fundamentally game breaking," your anecdotes are unhelpful at best. You're welcome to correct me if I don't understand your point well enough, or if you have any sort of data that Glalie/Octillery/any other Moody users I'm not aware of are warping the metagame, but considering none are registered OU, I find the latter unlikely.
 
Dracovish is the new Dugtrio/Heatran for me; I hate both its design and how stupidly strong it is. I'm not going to rush to call for a ban, but I would feel no sadness if I never have to see it in OU again.

EDIT: Moody has no business being legal either; even without the Evasion or Accuracy boosts/drops, it's simply not fun to have to deal with a Sub/Protect abuse mon like that. I'd say Moody is on par with Arena Trap; few of the Pokemon who have it are particularly uncompetitive on their own, but the Ability itself is what takes them to another level of intolerable.
Speaking of Duggy? Why is Arena trap not a problem now?
 
Any body noticed that psychic surge Indeedee-M with 252 Spa EVs does this?

252+ SpA Indeedee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
View attachment 209269
Cancer Incarnate (Snorlax) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Rest
- Stockpile
- Block​
My friends, I hereby present you something not new (since it was doable in older gens anyway) but nevertheless quite interesting. Chronosnorlax.
I don't even know if it's actually legal to play this thing (technically it doesn't break any clause) and I honestly don't think it's a good choice since, at best, you'll get a 1 for 1 trade, it's kind of a beggar and fat version of gothitelle.

Anyway, the power of this incredibly cancerous set lies in the pyschological pressure it puts on the opponent. Most people will either break and start cussing at you (which means they are reportable and staff must intervene, which might result in a free win) or just play in an incredibly tilting way. You don't even need to time stall since the tactic in itself takes usually at least 100 turns for each succesfully trapped mon.

Proof this is not trolling: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1020562430
I know this was low ladder and it's a bad example and so on and so forth, but just IMAGINE the power of surprise of such a wondrous set during a highly ranked game. As I previously stated, the point is making your enemy tilt itself out of the orbit. I also highly suggest using moody glaile posted before together with whatever you want to call this, since it's also a tilt-inducing mon.
The only real requirement it's time.
I just took this set online in my copy of Sword and it's just fantastic. Thank you for allowing me to live out a childhood dream of having a huge immovable Snorlax that does nothing but sleep and eat berries once in a while. All my opponents can do nothing but tire out their Pokémon just trying to put a dent in this thick beast. Sounds like something straight out of the anime! It's so absolutely degenerate, but I completely love it. Definitely something I'm gonna keep in my back pocket when I'm in the mood for something a little different.

I remember I came up with a Toxic/Sub/Taunt/Disable Salazzle back in Sun, but this... this is god tier battle manipulation. Hats off to you lol
 
Now if we're open to discussing Darm being unhealthy, I'm all ears. Scarf in particular is the set that I think completely pushes it over the edge; the amount of constraint that thing puts on teambuilding to ensure you don't just get flat-out swept by Icicle Crash or Flare Blitz once your Rotom gets chunked by one or two U-turns is absolutely absurd
It’s always funny to me how when we are dealing with disgusting stallbreakers with next to no real counters, then everything is ok, but when you can run darmanitan with a scarf which threatens balances and offenses, then it’s immediately a problem.
 
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