Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

Colonel M

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Question before the dynamaxing gets banned. Has there been a discussion about lower levels of dynamax? theres 10 levels, would it be more balanced if, let's say we go with level 5 dynamax for only 50 percent boost in hp, or even level 1 for just the 10 percent?

I recognize dynamax itself is broken. But it's broken because of the bulk of the mon in tandem with the power and the effect of the attacks right?
The OU Council has no plans on this because, as re-iterated many times:

1) Pokemon are caught at different Dynamax levels
2) Pokemon cannot have their Dynamax levels lower
3) This is, at best, a terrible band-aid attempt to try to keep something that (in my opinion) is broken.

Please stop suggesting this (even though I'm sure someone will in another 2 pages)...
 
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Gross Sweep

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When reacting to the usage stats at a glance nothing surprises me more than Gengar usage being so low. With the new usage cutoff at 4.52% if I'm not mistaken Gengar will start the generation out in UU based off my readings of 1695 and 1825 OU. After Gengar gained Nasty Plot this generation, and pursuit was removed from the game, I think people expected this thing to go insane. I think this has a lot to do with how offensive the meta is right now making something like Dragapult just better most of the time given its superior speed.

Honestly I still think Gengar can be great in the current metagame, and I don't know if its usage is so low because people want to use other ghosts right now like Dragapult, Aegislash and the tea pot since they're new to OU (Aegi isn't new but is has been banned to Ubers for a majority of its existence); or if Ditto is ruining this thing. In a meta where Ditto is seeing 40 something percent usage Gengar really needs to be running Sub + Nasty Plot sets if you want to utilize Nasty Plot at all, which just don't seem overly optimal to me as I think Gengar really appreciates a third attack over sub. I'm interested to see if this thing climbs back up the usage ranks as new toy syndrome wears off, or if the meta is really that unkind to Gengar this generation.
 

Jordy

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When reacting to the usage stats at a glance nothing surprises me more than Gengar usage being so low. With the new usage cutoff at 4.52% if I'm not mistaken Gengar will start the generation out in UU based off my readings of 1695 and 1825 OU. After Gengar gained Nasty Plot this generation, and pursuit was removed from the game, I think people expected this thing to go insane. I think this has a lot to do with how offensive the meta is right now making something like Dragapult just better most of the time given its superior speed.

Honestly I still think Gengar can be great in the current metagame, and I don't know if its usage is so low because people want to use other ghosts right now like Dragapult, Aegislash and the tea pot since they're new to OU (Aegi isn't new but is has been banned to Ubers for a majority of its existence); or if Ditto is ruining this thing. In a meta where Ditto is seeing 40 something percent usage Gengar really needs to be running Sub + Nasty Plot sets if you want to utilize Nasty Plot at all, which just don't seem overly optimal to me as I think Gengar really appreciates a third attack over sub. I'm interested to see if this thing climbs back up the usage ranks as new toy syndrome wears off, or if the meta is really that unkind to Gengar this generation.
Just to add a little bit onto this post, Kasib Berry is also an interesting tech option that I have seen a few people run on Gengar in order to deal with Ditto.
 
Wow. Dracovish is straight up cancer. It can simultaneously work as nuke and a counter for itself due to it's double water resist. And on top of that, it isn't one shot by Darm yet it always 1HKOs in return. Like I knew it was bad but it's worse than I thought. It is both a powerhouse and can be a check to some of the more serious offensive threats in the meta. This thing gets banned when? I'm gonna abuse the heck out of it until it's gone because I don't see it staying. I'm shocked usage rates for it aren't higher.
I do think that dracovish is pretty unhealthy for the metagame. It has an extremely spammable stab move that blows past most resists and it also has alot of defensive utility. That speed is the only reason for why I don't think it's broken, but I do think that it's unhealthy for the metagame.


Another problem keeps popping up. I'm having trouble justifying any of my balance builds. I kept trying for defensive options to make a balance team. Every time I changed a defensive option to an offensive one, my results got better. It started when I first changed out Toxapex for scarf Gengar and my team improved. Then I changed Runerigus for Dracovish. Ironically, Dracovish was better at checking some of the threats I had trouble with while bringing a ton of offense. I even added Ditto over hazard control just because and, at least in preliminary testing, it actually works better in most cases due to all the high powered cancer running around. I'm certainly not saying do this as it was a very limited low rank sample and I expect it to come back to bite me at some point. But it does speak to how strong offense is right now.

At first glance, some of you may find this conflicting with my earlier comments on stall. Well, I'm not talking about stall. I'm talking balance. In balance, I'm finding you can't bring enough walls to check every offensive threat commonly out there right now. So you might as well just go more offense. This isn't to say that I think stall is dead. You can adjust to this meta defensively. You just need more than 2 or 3 walls/pivots to do it. The problem I'm finding with balance right now is it doesn't have enough of either offense or defense. It's impossible to set up something or pivot when you don't have the right switch in to every monstrous threat running around. So then in those games, you just have less offense and wall breaking capability
I'm having a very similar problem. Coming into gen 8 from gen 7, having used mainly stall and balance teams just feels weird since most bulky build without alot of offensive pressure just fold to most of the metagame. I built a team that I'm decently happy with, but it's still not defensive enough for my taste.

I tried building a stall team, thinking that banded dugtrio + xatu would be capable of checking the majority of stall counters. My thought process was basically, trap toxtricity and darm with it and ohko both with quake or edge respectively. But then I learned two very valuable lessons, the first was that scarf darm sweeps my team and the 2nd was that dynamaxing was broken.

Then I tried my hand at balance, and I just kept being disapointed at how passive it was. I started by building a simple volt turn with specs tox and band darm, only to realise that sub + setup mons swept me. Scarf darm only hampered my team even more, as now it couldn't break rotom as reliably, which was terrible since I couldn't really deal with it well without my pex getting heavily chipped.
 
Last night on Discord Jordy was hyping up this Dragapult set that looks pretty cool:

Dragapult (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 80 HP / 208 SpA / 8 SpD / 212 Spe
Timid Nature
IV: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Hex
- Will-o-Wisp

IIRC the SpA is for the 2HKO on Clefable post-burn, not sure about the bulk or speed. This thing is nice for pressuring slower teams and irritating switchins to its offensive sets, and any archetype gets pressured late-game by Hex Spam. It can also Wisp Corviknight through Sub and avoids being copied by Ditto if it uses Sub.

Has anyone else tried this or used something similar?
 
Wow. Dracovish is straight up cancer. It can simultaneously work as nuke and a counter for itself due to it's double water resist. And on top of that, it isn't one shot by Darm yet it always 1HKOs in return. Like I knew it was bad but it's worse than I thought. It is both a powerhouse and can be a check to some of the more serious offensive threats in the meta. This thing gets banned when? I'm gonna abuse the heck out of it until it's gone because I don't see it staying. I'm shocked usage rates for it aren't higher.
Make a team with a Seismitoad counter bc he destroy Dracovish.. Anything who forces Dracovish to use another move outside of Fishious Rend is a good mon againt the fossil
 
I'd like to also agree that Dracovish is unhealthy. It puts in too much consistent work breaking balance and stall. Sure, we can all run a defensive water absorb but I think it warps teambuilding in a way that Dracozolt doesn't. We all know the calcs, I just don't think it's healthy for the meta to have a kill button for such little risk to the user (risk << reward). Generally moves of this power level have some significant downside (Water Spout, Explosion, Mind Blown)...
 
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This metagame is currently all about very low risk for insanely high reward (the vast majority of dynamax setup sweepers, Darmanitan and Dracovish being the main examples). There's hardly any thought required in setting up or clicking on your nuke move because in most situations you blow past your resists anyway. Very little repercussions as the abusers of this stuff aren't at really at risk of getting set up on as they either OHKO or 2HKO everything or their resists are too defensive to set up and sweep (Seismitoad). And of course, even if they could you could bypass your choice lock anyways.

It's pretty much a circus right now. Reminds me of when Mega Kangaskahn was running around, but worse.
 
I'm also a lurker, but I just wanted to chime in and say that it makes little sense not to ban Dynamaxing when the option to make a separate "Dynamax OU" tier exists. If it turns out that the non-dynamax tier is stale and unfun, wouldn't the playerbase simply switch over to the Dynamax meta? I'm speaking as someone that would play the shit out of a tier with Dynamaxing available; there's no point in forcing people to play meta game they don't want to play . . .
 
Question before the dynamaxing gets banned. Has there been a discussion about lower levels of dynamax? theres 10 levels, would it be more balanced if, let's say we go with level 5 dynamax for only 50 percent boost in hp, or even level 1 for just the 10 percent?

I recognize dynamax itself is broken. But it's broken because of the bulk of the mon in tandem with the power and the effect of the attacks right?
on PS they always assume your mons are 31/31/31/31/31/31 perfect with 508 evs. i dont see why they wouldnt just assume the same thing for dynamax with it being perfect

I'd like to also agree that Dracovish is unhealthy. It puts in too much consistent work breaking balance and stall. Sure, we can all run a defensive water absorb but I think it warps teambuilding in a way that Dracozolt doesn't. We all know the calcs, I just don't think it's healthy for the meta to have a kill button for such little risk to the user (risk << reward). Generally moves of this power level have some significant downside (Water Spout, Explosion, Mind Blown)...
dracovish is defo one of the top tier threats in the current metagame because of just fishious rend alone. anything that can ohko toxapex under rain is defo a big ass threat. i'm not sure what the calcs are to certain mons like jellicent are, i'll add those later but dracovish is def a threat

dracovish is agency certified
 
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if the meta is really that unkind to Gengar this generation.
I've really struggled to bring it along considering its weakness to Earthquake when I'm fighting Excadrill every single match and Dugtrio is still being Dugtrio.
Make a team with a Seismitoad counter bc he destroy Dracovish
I switched my Seismitoad into an opponent's Seismitoad expecting Scald but was yeeted by Power Whip, so I guess...Seismitoad IS the Seismitoad counter. What a time to be alive.

I experimented with Water Absorb Dracovish for a while actually (lol), it loses power but the lack of any more obvious Water Absorb mons makes the opponent think they can Fishrend with impunity. If kept up your sleeve until the right moment you can force the opponent to switch into a Fishrend of your own, albeit a weaker version.

Looking forward to jumping down to the UU pool just to get away from all this nonsense, but I'm sure some fresh hell awaits down there.
 
This metagame is currently all about very low risk for insanely high reward (the vast majority of dynamax setup sweepers, Darmanitan and Dracovish being the main examples). There's hardly any thought required in setting up or clicking on your nuke move because in most situations you blow past your resists anyway. Very little repercussions as the abusers of this stuff aren't at really at risk of getting set up on as they either OHKO or 2HKO everything or their resists are too defensive to set up and sweep (Seismitoad). And of course, even if they could you could bypass your choice lock anyways.

It's pretty much a circus right now. Reminds me of when Mega Kangaskahn was running around, but worse.
Defensive playstyles are at an all-time low. People try to build a balance and it ends up being an offense because there’s little to no reason to run most of the defensive pokemons anyway. Stall is pitifully weak to the point where the more experience people get with sweepers such as dracovish, gyarados, darmanitan and so on and so forth, the harder it becomes to even find a good 6-man team that doesn’t end up being a coinflipping matchup experience.
I wish we would have already quickbanned dyna and gigantamax in order to focus on bigger and worse threats, especially dracovish and darmanitan (which MIGHT be okay without dyna running arond, atm it’s stupidly broken).
 
Hey guys, I played quite a lot lately (didn't really played seriously since Gen6, like little after ORAS I think), with different playstyles and I just wanted to share some thoughts about it. Started off with "obviously broken things" without thinking much about what i putted in my team, just slashing some gyarados, excadrill, ditto, dragapult and stuff to have a first view of the metagame. Back then I already realized substitute would be an amazing move in this meta and gave it to gyarados to really great success. I also realized that the meta would be awfully physically centered, and although I did start the Dragapult moveset with DD/DD, I finally gave it a special movepool which is much more diverse, so definitely Dragapult is a special attacker to me (we already mainly see special sets for him on the ladder).

Then I tried to make use of other allegedly broken things such as Hawlucha, but as I expected it didn't have that high of usage, I think it was a bit overrated at first. I mean sure it's great but not THAT great in my opinion.

After gaining all that information I thought, yeah this meta is really screwing with stall, especially those pesky substitute users like gyarados or hydreigon, so let's build a stall team with a ferropex core. I also wanted to try some new stuff so I played an Avalugg with a similar set than one previously mentioned (Boots, Rapid spin, avalanche, body press, recover). And to deal with sub hydreigon I just tried out a Whimsicott Infiltrator set, becuase evryone expects prankster and infiltrator is such a god ability right now. I have to say it was quite satisfying koing them hiding behind their sub, it may be the most satisfying kills i have done in the past few weeks. Anyway, I found myself to a dead end because I had to play ditto in the team to prevent dynamax abusing, so I was screwed by everything that could BU or CM like Corviknight, Hatterenee, Clefable and so on. I actually tried to play Encore on Whimsicott to avoid that problem, but Dynamaxing removes the encore restriction which is dumb. And anyway, LO Clefable destroys stall, and Galarian Darmanitan is sometimes barely manageable.

At that time I had a pretty clear idea of what the meta would look like and I tried some stuff posted here lie the RK9 team that was brought up (it had some success but really lacks defense against ghost types which are running rampant right now, and also lack some real offensive electric/grass presence to deal with most common stuff).

The usage stats were quite predictible, but are still quite impressive. Top6 pokemon being present in more thant 1/4 of the teams is just absurd in my opinion. I will not argue about Dynamax, I personnaly think it should be banned as soon as possible but actually some abusers of the mechanic should also be banned, and may be they are the one giving the impression the mechanic is broken (galarian darmanitan is such a pain). Now it seems like the best pokemon right now are those that can "counter" ditto in some way, like Hydreigon having dark pulse/flash cannon or Dracovish having sometime no dragon move, sometimes outrage, in order to "not being able to kill themself" (or being locked in the case of outrage).

Now I wanted to speak about some pokemon I didn't even see any mention even though I saw them used by people reaching top10 of the ladder which is quite impressive. First of there is Sigilyph played by Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh which I guess is running something like that :

Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Heat Wave

Not sure about HP/Speed though. First off, this thing is a pain for stall, as if stall didn't have enough trouble. It also is a set up sweeper that can "counter" ditto by virtue of using Calm Mind/Roost. When dynamaxing it will boost its speed and Max flare can kill resists (mainly steel). I also noticed there isn't much good electric types in the meta right now : Rotom-Wash is the n1 choice if you need an Electric type. Rotom-Heat is really good now that boots exists. Other than that, there may be dracozolt (which is really not that good imo, you can miss so many times in a critical moment when you would have just use a 100% accuracy move with another pokemon) and toxictry, the latter having really little usage compare to what I would expect because it can actually be really good, but that's it. So spamming Air Slash can easily lead you through victory, it's not a shitty coverage move like bounce (and flinch can also be winning you games). So yeah surprised this has never been brought up.

I also wanted to hightlight a pokemon I've seen used once or twice and can actually be really good : Sirfecth'd. With a Choice Band it can really break teams and when Dynamaxing it becomes even more impressive. I guess the one I saw was this one :

Sirfetch'd @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off

Obviously you can run jolly instead of adamant, i didn't check speed tiers. With the ability to have scrappy, I think this is a true power house. It does insane damage to the main physical wall right now, namely ferrothorn, Mandibuzz, Corsola-G, Rotom-W, Corviknight. You don't even need to predict anything if opponent has like aegislash because Close Combat will rip through him. Poison Jab is really great coverage against fairies (which means against Hatterenee and Clefable) and it also has brave bird to boost speed when dynamaxing. I don't think you can ask for much more. I'm actually quite unsure about knock off, may be another coverage would be better like leaf blade for Seismitoad and Rotom-W but I think they take enough damage already from Close Combat. He also has access to First Impression as a priority move but you will be forced out after that.

Lastly I want to talk about Conkeldurr. I really think it will rise in usage in the near future because it really has the ability to shine. I'm not even sure what is best set could be, but for sure it revolves around flame orb/guts + drain punch. Aside from that you have a myriad of possibility, Mach Punch gives you a good priority and I really think having priority is awesome in this gen because so little pokemon have access to it. You can run facade to abuse the burn, you can run ice punch, EQ, fire punch, , thunder punch, Poison Jab, Bulk up to screw dittos. It even got defog for whatever reason. So I think it can be quite unpredictable and it will be quite good. If you take into account Dynamax, I think it becomes even better. I'm pretty sure Conk could be a decent check to most common things out there such as hydreigon.

Talking about Hydreigon, I really think this thing is busted. Like, it was decent in previous gen and I loved to play it, but right now I think it is totally nuts. Like you don't even need dynamax at all. In a lot of scenario you just sub (like on a seismitoad), then proceed to NP and sweep a whole team. I really think this thing is insane, and that it will be suspected at some point. To be quite fair, i feel like Hydreigon is more of a problem than most busted things in the meta rn like Dracovish. Dracovish is really good at what it does but in all honesty i never felt I insta-lost if it ever entered the battlefield and it can not come on scald which is kind of the "passive move you always use on a defensive mon". Plus there is so much things rn to keep it in check like ferro, pex, rotom or seismitoad imo. And it get a little screwed by ditto because you can just give a free win sometimes to your opponent just by killing something with dracovish and letting ditto copy it. Hell it even "checks itself" in a way. But Hydreigon, there is no easy countermeasure against it. If it comes, you HAVE to assume it is sub-NP which it is most of the time, and switch into something that can break the sub, and either survive a hit and outspeed or survive a +2 hit. For the record, 98 speed tiers was underwhelming in previous generation but right now it is really good. Like you get outspeed by Hawlucha, Gengar, Cinderace, Dragapult mainly and none of them are a safe switch in to a Hydreigon ever. Dragapult is really appealing thanks to inflitrator (and also the sub disable recent set) but really in which world are you switching dragapult in Hydreigon. So you have to survive a +2 hit and still being able to break that sub and be threatening enough. Apart from the Whimsicott set I brought up earlier which can be fucked up by multiple flash cannon on the switch I really can't think of any completely safe switch in to Hydreigon (and it will be even more true when dynamax disappears and double HP will not be a thing anymore). You can still sac something just breaking the sub but then ditto isn't even a great answer, aforementioned fast pokemon can kill it but heh you can not realistically sac a mon each time hydreigon enters the battlefield. I can't think of a healthy metagame with Hydreigon in it right now.
 
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252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o in Rain: 123-144 (34.7 - 40.6%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not sure if this correct, because when I calc'd this I got:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o in Rain: 165-194 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The damage calculator didn't factor in fishious rend's secondary effect so I manually put in 170 BP and got this.
 
I've really struggled to bring it along considering its weakness to Earthquake when I'm fighting Excadrill every single match and Dugtrio is still being Dugtrio.
Gengar is a ghost type, so Dugtrio can't trap it with Arena Trap. Dugtrio isn't an issue for Gengar at all, considering the fact it can't trap Gengar and Gengar often carries sub or scarf.

If anything, the new ghost and current state of the meta are the reason Gengar isn't used more. People wanna abuse dynamax on Hawlucha/Gyarados and play with new ghost like Dragapult.
 
anything that can ohko toxapex under rain is defo a big ass threat. i'm not sure what the calcs are to certain mons like jellicent are, i'll add those later but dracovish is def a threat
To be entirely fair; not much is going to be surviving a Rain-Boosted; Strong Jaw boosted; STAB; BP 170 move. Even factoring in Toxapex being resistant, that's still a massive hit.

Also:

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

To even secure a 2HKO Dracovish needs to be LO or Banded instead of Scarf. And not being Scarf means it needs support to rip things apart that aren't slow. Jolly Scarf outright cannot break Toxapex without Crits.

And even Adamant Band Dracovish is only doing:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So cannot OHKO even with SR. And Max/Max Bold Toxapex is pretty normal atm because the meta is overwhelmingly physical.

And keep in mind Fisheous Rend is a contact move so Dracovish is probably taking a Poison from Baleful Bunker too.

As for Jellicent? 0%. Jellicent has access to Water Absorb.
 
Gengar is very threatening but it’s hard to find a spot on a team for it. Its low usage doesn’t really surprise me. I often find myself wanting to use Dragapult or Hydreigon instead. Dragapult’s higher speed and ability to hit behind Substitutes brings a lot more utility to teams than Gengar does. Hydreigon has NP like Gengar, but also superior bulk and resistances, so it has an easier time coming in and setting up. Also, the top 2 Pokémon, Dragapult and Ditto, are big threats for Gengar.

Hawlucha’s usage surprised me though. It was often brought up alongside Gyarados as the main abusers of Dynamax, yet it’s noticeably lower in usage than Gyarados.
 
Dracovish having sometime no dragon move, sometimes outrage, in order to "not being able to kill themself" (or being locked in the case of outrage).
I see Dracovish using only Fishious Rend in the moveset.. Resisted x4 but take about 30% the "slowest" Dracovish in a 1v1. Manly seen this set in Rain Teams bc whitout rain is walled by Ferro+Pex+Seis
 
I was surprised that kommo-o didn’t made the cut to OU, it’s been really good in my screens team with a full special set using throat spray, the main problem for this set being aegislash.
The set in action:

Also copperajah is a nice suicide lead, i’ve been using it with shuca berry to beat exca (bring to sash with heat crash and then finish with gmax steel surge, setting steelth rocks permanently):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1020666214

Ps: sry for my english
 
Has anyone found a way to counter Eiscue? I haven't found anyway to beat it. It takes a free hit no matter what then just wins with belly drum.
 
can't trap ghosts
Well I'll be damned, I haven't kept track of all the mechanic changes over the past two gens but it makes logical sense. That's great news. I've been meaning to try out the following stallbreaker set from an old Smog article back when Gengar still had Levitate (rip).

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate Cursed Body :(
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Substitute
Has anyone found a way to counter Eiscue?
Showdown tells me Ice Face only blocks a physical hit, so that's really good to know and I bloody well wish I'd known that earlier. Eiscue hits 327 Spe after Salac, so it sounds like our boy Gengar's the man for the job.
Edit: Add "noice mode gets an insane speed boost" to the list of things the game doesn't tell you if you're on the receiving end of and you "Just Have To Know".
I'm also using defensive Kommo-o under screens and it's invincible, just doesn't give a shit about 60%+ of the meta. I'm sure it'll be back to OU in no time flat...
 
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Has anyone found a way to counter Eiscue? I haven't found anyway to beat it. It takes a free hit no matter what then just wins with belly drum.
If you don’t break the Ice Face, it still has its awful speed tier. Makes it easier to revenge kill.

Special moves don’t break the face and don’t trigger the transformation.
 

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