The fourth and fifth games were absurd. I can't believe you beat the rain team after having the corviknight tear your team up like that. This looks much better than I imagined it would. I might not know much about it, but why aren't people using haze? Is it because you protect then disable it? If so these guys really messed up in the mind games since one haze could've destroyed 30 turns worth of effort.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
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The fourth and fifth games were absurd. I can't believe you beat the rain team after having the corviknight tear your team up like that. This looks much better than I imagined it would. I might not know much about it, but why aren't people using haze? Is it because you protect then disable it? If so these guys really messed up in the mind games since one haze could've destroyed 30 turns worth of effort.
Nah man, fun is extremely relevant. Fun is the whole reason we're playing showdown instead of cart.
Smogon attracts a certain type of player - one that finds competitive, skillful games fun. It's ideal to discuss gameplay in terms of competitiveness and skill because it keeps our discourse objective and provides a unified vision. But don't forget the end goal. We want fun.
You're right though. Moody is random, unskillful, and a pain to check. The power level seems higher than Double Team and the gameplay reminds me of SwagPlay. Fighting just Glalie is annoying, but teams with Glalie+Octillery make me want to pull my hair out.
i dont entirely agree with you here. Fun is only relevant as part of the reason and should not be used as the primary reason for something being banned/seen as unhealthy.
Moody is unhealthy for reasons stated, including yourself. Its similar to Arena Trap and Shadow Tag in terms of abilities that are unhealthy and unbalanced in a competitive metagame. Different reasons but similar premise for all 3.
haze goes through protect anyway bro
I strongly disagree that consistency is a point against Moody, it completely flies in the face of the argument that the mechanic is heavily RNG dependent. Both arguments can't exist at the same time. And if it's consistent, (which it is) im not sure how it's any more problematic than any other substitute set up sweepers. They're dealt with in exactly the same ways, except Glalie can only afford to run a single attack which is limited to 16 pp. If it's consistent, then what it really is is consistently worse than Hydreigon and Dragapult. And then we're just back to the argument that it feels bad to lose to.
sorry but this is dumb as hell
getting up to +6 evasion makes it 66% likely you will dodge any 100% accuracy move. That's very consistent and also very RNG dependent. The consistency of Moody just means that the person using Moody does not need to get lucky to use it to great effect, they just need an average outcome and the player playing against it needs good outcomes to really stand a chance.
Sorry but this is wrong as hell
Moody doesn't affect evasion
Thanks for reading my post today
I wasn't implying that moody boosts evasion but evasion boosting is all of the following 3 things: banned, consistent, RNG dependent
thanks for not reading my post today
:)
Add Seismitoad to the party and you have a pretty decent defensive core
In read through the front page of this thread, am I correct in saying that if you switch a choice scarfed ditto in against a Dynamaxed Pokemon, your ditto will also become that dynamaxed Pokemon, but it won't have the choice scarf speed boost nor will it be locked into a single attack? Also, does ditto transforming into the opponent's dynamaxed Pokemon use up your Dynamax for the game?
Ditto will transform into the regular form of the Pokemon, and retain choice scarf's effect. However, you can then dynamax it to become a dynamaxed version of what it transformed into, nullifying choice scarf's effect for 3 turns.
Can we all just give a shoutout to Seismitoad? He is invaluable in this meta for so many reasons. Absolute glue mon that checks BOTH fossils. My only complaint is I can't run two, because rain is still pretty overwhelming right now and he gets worn down. He's also a competent rain sweeper himself that can take on Ferro with Focus Blast.
You could use Gastrodon if you find Seismitoad gets worn down too much; Gastrodon is bulkier and has access to recover. However, you would have to fit stealth rock on a different member, and you miss out on toxic.
This is partly why I experimented with Ninetails. Pokemon with grass coverage moves that can also hit other things are invaluable in this meta because Seismitoad is everywhere.
Also, I figured I might as well post a list of pokemon with abilities that counter water moves because of Dracovish and Rain Teams.. The three abilities I know that do this are Water Absorb, Dry Skin, and Storm Drain. Some of the ones I'm about to mention are better off running other abilities and/or lower tier. But I figured it was important to mention them all because a lot of the old options got cut out. I'm also only mentioning final evolutions.
Water Abosorb:
Lapras
Vaporeon
Lanturn
Quagsire
Mantine
Seismitoad
Maractus
Jellicent
Araquanid
Dracovish
Arctovish
Dry Skin:
Heliolisk
Toxicroak
Storm Drain:
Gastradon
Maractus*** (Once hidden abilities are allowed. Except it's inferior to Water Absorb in singles)
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So that's roughly 14 evolution lines. (Maractus is a maybe twice.) Less if you want things that are good in this tier. A couple things to note... Pokemon with 4X resist to water may be better off running other abilities since they can still counter water moves fairly well with their typing. This includes Dracovish and Lanturn, the latter of which could ironically counter both fossils and if it had Volt Absorb. However, Lanturn is also probably better in a lower tier.
I also discovered that Vaporeon may still be a viable pokemon in OU due to wish/protect stalling and cleric duties. It resists the ice and fire moves of G-Darmanitan, is immune to Dracovish's main move, and it has enough bulk where it is rarely a OHKO by unboosted pokemon. It's a bit passive, though. It still might be good in certain balance and stall builds.
This is why Gyrados is going to be a big offensive threat even when Dynamax is banned. Getting Power Whip basically fliiped the table as it now so it now counters most bulky water and water/ground types that previously checked it. Seisatoad and Gastrodon now have to live in fear of it. Which is something it has over Dracovish
Being one of the best DD users with phenomenal coverage also helps lol
I wonder without. Dynamax if Intimidate sets may be preferable over Moxie to help weaken or set up vs other Offesnsive mons like G-Darm
Gyarados's loss of free speed boosts via Max Airstream will hurt it hard. And what counts as phenomenal coverage? No longer having a reason to run Bounce post-Dynamax will mean Grass types pretty much wall it. And no, Moxie is always preferable because it increases snowballing potential and Intimidate would be preferable on more defensively-orientated sets which don't even exist on Gyarados.
Post Dinamax the normal will be runing EQ + Grass. I think Gyara will receive a suspect in the future.
Seismitoad is better to all other bc access to toxic + sr + water/electric imnunity also covering the "space" of M-Swampert is rain teams. Is a pretty good mon. Why you would change Toad will having this inmense rol comprendium?
EDIT: Gyarados will loose a reliable STAB after Dynamax ban
And since grass resists EQ Whip and Waterfall it will be walled by them.
Seismitoad is mostly a physical wall, a Dracovish check ( no longer really necessary because the toad has scared away the fish) and Barraskewda is much more suited to the offensive playstyle of rain given higher Attack and Speed and better coverage. And you contradict yourself, having access to toxic and sr are exactly what makes it so valuable defensively and putting that on a swift swim set would take away 2 of your slots for coverage.
Ice Fang is a thing in Gyarados...
This is I think of Seismitoad too. idk why people are looking for a replacement.
Dude you literally just said the new set post-dynamax would be EQ Whip + STAB.
And people aren't looking for a seismitoad replacement.
So, I just got my reqs, though since the fate of Dynamax seems to already be set in stone, I'd like to talk about the second most heated topic at the moment: the removal of the Moody Clause. I can only really talk about only one of the abusers of Moody, that being Glalie, since that's the one I used to ladder. This is the set that I used:
Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Disable
- Freeze-Dry
I've seen Taunt be used over Disable, though I prefer Disable because it's also able to stop attacks that can threaten Glalie. It also notably shuts down any Choice item user, with Galarian Darmanitan being a standout in that group.
As expected, how successful I am with Glalie in games depends on what stat boosts I get the first few turns, though the majority of the time I'm hope for a Speed boost. After all, getting the Speed boost bolsters the stat to 568, which allows it to already outspeed the majority of the metagame once it's on the field. Pivoting really helped with this, since I would technically get two chances to get it, though I typically stay in because I would have rather useful stat boosts after stalling with Substitute + Protect. Surprisingly, however, my first Moody activation was the boost in Speed more times then I thought. It's no surprise that it's a better chance, though, since it's now a 1/5th chance instead of a 1/7th chance. Even if I didn't get a Speed boost, I often stayed in regardless because I felt that the roll I got was useful. What's the exact probabilities of these types of rolls?
Here's a table of every possible roll you can get from Moody:
For the sake of simplicity, here are the rules for a Moody roll that I would deem useful, with the conditions being that I switch Glalie in after one of my Pokemon got KOed and I use Protect the first turn it's out:
1. (+SpA, -Spe), (+Spe, -SpD), (+Spe, -Atk), (+Atk, -Def), (+Atk, -SpD): +3 Atk, -1 Def, +2 SpA, -2 SpD, +3 Spe
2. (+Spe, -Atk), (+Atk, -Spe), (+SpD, -Atk), (+SpA, -Spe), (+Atk, -Def): +2 Atk, -1 Def, +1 SpA, +2 SpD, 0 Spe
3. (+Atk, -Spe), (+Spe, -SpA), (+SpD, -Def), (+Spe, -SpD), (+SpA, -Spe): +2 Atk, -1 Def, +1 SpA, +1 SpD, +2 Spe
4. (+Def, -Spe), (+Spe, -SpA), (+Atk, -SpD), (+Spe, -Def), (+SpA, -Spe) +2 Atk, +1 Def, +1 SpA, -1 SpD +2 Spe
5. (+Def, -SpA), (+Spe, -Def), (+SpA, -SpD), (+Def, -Atk), (+SpD, -Atk) -2 Atk, +3 Def, +1 SpA, +1 SpD, +2 Spe
I know that only five tests is a really, really small sample size for an simulation like this, but I did this just for time. Simply put, almost all of these final stat boosts optimizes Glalie the best, with the exception being test 2 if you're really care about Speed. Like I said, though, this is a really small part of a simulation that should be done many more times; I've can recall times when one of my stats goes down to -3 or even -4 and times where one of my stats hits the max in only five turns. This sample size proves, however, that Moody can easily snowball quickly in a matter of turns, and it's definitely possible for you to safely get to snowballing your stats if you play your moves right.
Probability is obviously not the only factor in a successful Moody Glalie, though. Your opponent influences that a lot, most important how they play and what their team consists of, with of course getting the optimal rolls. Unfortunately, if everything above didn't seem questionable or controversial, Moody really makes that seem clear in battle. Take a look at this battle, the last battle before I got my reqs, funnily enough.
Wait a minute, there's more.
My opponent makes a fair play and switches into Galarian Darmanitan, which I assumed would probably either U-turn or Flare Blitz. However, I get ANOTHER Speed boost, allowing me to outspeed it now and pretty much hurting my opponent's plan. The chances of that happening is the original 1/25 multiplied by another 4/20, which equals .8%. Yes, it technically didn't matter too much because I chose to Protect, but the fact that I was able to get enough Speed by chance to outspeed pretty much the entire metagame is insane, or rather, insanely lucky. Without getting those Speed boosts in a short amount of time, let alone three turns in a row, I probably would've been facing a much challenging battle. Although this was a high risk, high reward situation, it was entirely up to RNG to determine that. The fact that my opponent had to face the same RNG against me rather than brains can be considered unfair and not competitive at all, and the fact that I can easily spam Substitute, Protect, and Disable without much thought rolling for boosts while my opponent had think hard on how to stop me makes it way to hard for my opponent when I have it easy.
Moody is quite literally rolling for good stats, and now that there's more of chance to get a certain stat boost you want this generation, it arguably makes it almost has hard past generations when evasion was a possible stat to get boosted but with a lower chance. Boosts not going your way? Switch out and possibly pay the price or stay safe. Get a Speed boost as soon as you come in? You're already in a good position, a position with a 12.5% chance to happen. After that, it's relying on luck to get boosts, but when you're spamming Substitute, Protect, and Disable waiting for such luck, is there any much thought put into it? Even with possible ways to circumvent this snowball effect, such as hitting through it's Substitute with Dragapult or forcing it out with phazing, there's always the chance that Glalie will get the boosts to stop you from doing that. Are they able to preserve Glalie with their knowledge of the game and risk taking? No, it's because RNG was in their favor. You can argue that RNG can not be in Glalie's favor, but that's still admitting to the fact that Moody is random-based ability that requires not a lot of skill to get the most use out of it.
As if it wasn't obvious already, I believe that Moody is still an unfair ability that requires little to no competitive knowledge to get the most use out of it. When you're using Glalie, you're spamming moves to prevent it from getting touched, allowing it to get a free boost in whatever stat RNG decides, even when balanced with possible stat drops. If luck is on your side, you can easily go from a guaranteed loss to a win, no matter how hard your opponent outplayed you. Thus, due to its nature of being uncompetitive, the Moody Clause should be reinstated to preserve the competitiveness Smogon has to offer, especially after the highly likely Dynamax ban.
Sorry, Glalie.
Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Disable
- Freeze-Dry
I've seen Taunt be used over Disable, though I prefer Disable because it's also able to stop attacks that can threaten Glalie. It also notably shuts down any Choice item user, with Galarian Darmanitan being a standout in that group.
As expected, how successful I am with Glalie in games depends on what stat boosts I get the first few turns, though the majority of the time I'm hope for a Speed boost. After all, getting the Speed boost bolsters the stat to 568, which allows it to already outspeed the majority of the metagame once it's on the field. Pivoting really helped with this, since I would technically get two chances to get it, though I typically stay in because I would have rather useful stat boosts after stalling with Substitute + Protect. Surprisingly, however, my first Moody activation was the boost in Speed more times then I thought. It's no surprise that it's a better chance, though, since it's now a 1/5th chance instead of a 1/7th chance. Even if I didn't get a Speed boost, I often stayed in regardless because I felt that the roll I got was useful. What's the exact probabilities of these types of rolls?
Here's a table of every possible roll you can get from Moody:
| 1. +Atk, -Def | 5. +Def, -Atk | 9. +SpA, -Atk | 13. +SpD, -Atk | 17. +Spe, -Atk |
| 2. +Atk, -SpA | 6. +Def, -SpA | 10. +SpA, -Def | 14. +SpD, -Def | 18. +Spe, -Def |
| 3. +Atk, -SpD | 7. +Def, -SpD | 11. +SpA, -SpD | 15. +SpD, -SpA | 19. +Spe, -SpA |
| 4. +Atk, -Spe | 8. +Def, -Spe | 12. +SpA, -Spe | 16. +SpD, -Spe | 20. +Spe, -SpD |
- Anything that is -Atk is useful.
- Anything that is +Spe is also useful.
- Anything that is -Spe isn't useful.
- Anything that is +Atk isn't useful.
- Everything else is useful.
1. (+SpA, -Spe), (+Spe, -SpD), (+Spe, -Atk), (+Atk, -Def), (+Atk, -SpD): +3 Atk, -1 Def, +2 SpA, -2 SpD, +3 Spe
2. (+Spe, -Atk), (+Atk, -Spe), (+SpD, -Atk), (+SpA, -Spe), (+Atk, -Def): +2 Atk, -1 Def, +1 SpA, +2 SpD, 0 Spe
3. (+Atk, -Spe), (+Spe, -SpA), (+SpD, -Def), (+Spe, -SpD), (+SpA, -Spe): +2 Atk, -1 Def, +1 SpA, +1 SpD, +2 Spe
4. (+Def, -Spe), (+Spe, -SpA), (+Atk, -SpD), (+Spe, -Def), (+SpA, -Spe) +2 Atk, +1 Def, +1 SpA, -1 SpD +2 Spe
5. (+Def, -SpA), (+Spe, -Def), (+SpA, -SpD), (+Def, -Atk), (+SpD, -Atk) -2 Atk, +3 Def, +1 SpA, +1 SpD, +2 Spe
I know that only five tests is a really, really small sample size for an simulation like this, but I did this just for time. Simply put, almost all of these final stat boosts optimizes Glalie the best, with the exception being test 2 if you're really care about Speed. Like I said, though, this is a really small part of a simulation that should be done many more times; I've can recall times when one of my stats goes down to -3 or even -4 and times where one of my stats hits the max in only five turns. This sample size proves, however, that Moody can easily snowball quickly in a matter of turns, and it's definitely possible for you to safely get to snowballing your stats if you play your moves right.
Probability is obviously not the only factor in a successful Moody Glalie, though. Your opponent influences that a lot, most important how they play and what their team consists of, with of course getting the optimal rolls. Unfortunately, if everything above didn't seem questionable or controversial, Moody really makes that seem clear in battle. Take a look at this battle, the last battle before I got my reqs, funnily enough.
- At Turn 8, if I was able to get a Speed boost, I would be able to outspeed Dragapult, Disable Fire Blast to force it to switch out since it was most likely had Choice Specs, set up Substitute, and snowball from there. Unfortunately, I didn't get that roll, forcing me to sack one of my Pokemon, Rotom-H.
- At Turn 13, I was able to get a Speed nerf under Trick Room after Glalie was pivoted in, which helped me get my Substitute up. Although I would've been in a tough spot after Trick Room, I luckily get a Speed boost once it's over. Funnily enough, I got another Speed boost afterwards, which didn't really matter unless Dragapult had a Choice Scarf and it went over my head. Unfortunately, though, my Special Attack was dropped quite a bit, but thanks to the rolls I had earlier, I was able to weave around Mandibuzz, Galarian Darmanitan, and Dragapult and get the KO on Seismitoad after nicely timed Special Attack boosts negating its previous depletion.
- By Turn 20, my I got the maximum amount of Speed boosts you can get, which pretty much allows it to never go down low enough for Dragapult to even think about outspeeding Glalie.
- At Turn 29 and the turn after, I get really lucky and get two Special Attack boosts in a row, which was more than enough to take out Mandibuzz and basically sealed the game up at that point.
Wait a minute, there's more.
My opponent makes a fair play and switches into Galarian Darmanitan, which I assumed would probably either U-turn or Flare Blitz. However, I get ANOTHER Speed boost, allowing me to outspeed it now and pretty much hurting my opponent's plan. The chances of that happening is the original 1/25 multiplied by another 4/20, which equals .8%. Yes, it technically didn't matter too much because I chose to Protect, but the fact that I was able to get enough Speed by chance to outspeed pretty much the entire metagame is insane, or rather, insanely lucky. Without getting those Speed boosts in a short amount of time, let alone three turns in a row, I probably would've been facing a much challenging battle. Although this was a high risk, high reward situation, it was entirely up to RNG to determine that. The fact that my opponent had to face the same RNG against me rather than brains can be considered unfair and not competitive at all, and the fact that I can easily spam Substitute, Protect, and Disable without much thought rolling for boosts while my opponent had think hard on how to stop me makes it way to hard for my opponent when I have it easy.
Moody is quite literally rolling for good stats, and now that there's more of chance to get a certain stat boost you want this generation, it arguably makes it almost has hard past generations when evasion was a possible stat to get boosted but with a lower chance. Boosts not going your way? Switch out and possibly pay the price or stay safe. Get a Speed boost as soon as you come in? You're already in a good position, a position with a 12.5% chance to happen. After that, it's relying on luck to get boosts, but when you're spamming Substitute, Protect, and Disable waiting for such luck, is there any much thought put into it? Even with possible ways to circumvent this snowball effect, such as hitting through it's Substitute with Dragapult or forcing it out with phazing, there's always the chance that Glalie will get the boosts to stop you from doing that. Are they able to preserve Glalie with their knowledge of the game and risk taking? No, it's because RNG was in their favor. You can argue that RNG can not be in Glalie's favor, but that's still admitting to the fact that Moody is random-based ability that requires not a lot of skill to get the most use out of it.
As if it wasn't obvious already, I believe that Moody is still an unfair ability that requires little to no competitive knowledge to get the most use out of it. When you're using Glalie, you're spamming moves to prevent it from getting touched, allowing it to get a free boost in whatever stat RNG decides, even when balanced with possible stat drops. If luck is on your side, you can easily go from a guaranteed loss to a win, no matter how hard your opponent outplayed you. Thus, due to its nature of being uncompetitive, the Moody Clause should be reinstated to preserve the competitiveness Smogon has to offer, especially after the highly likely Dynamax ban.
Sorry, Glalie.
I really don't think we'd lose anything by keeping Moody banned. Spamming SubProtect for more RNG-based rolls on important stats definitely falls under the category of "taking control of the game out of the hands of the players and putting it at the mercy of the random number generator", which I thought was pretty much the functional definition of uncompetitive as it relates to Moody and Evasion clause and the like. Is it as broken as it was when it could give Evasion boosts? No. Does that make it competitive? Also no.
It only nullifies it for 2 turns. The turn you Dynamax you still retain Scarf boosts.
That's not true, and you can really easily test it in game. Dynamax a choice scarf pokemon against a faster non-choice pokemon who dynamax's on the same turn. The choice scarf user's dynamax will trigger first, however they will attack second, as the game recalculates the speed stat after all dynamaxing takes place.
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