Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Moves like Will-O-Wisp and Focus Blast are used because they have strategic merits: Will-O-Wisp can cripple a physical attacker, while Focus Blast can provide crucial coverage. They are used in spite of their low accuracy because their accuracy isn't so low as to be a complete gamble. Inflicting an opponent with paralysis may cause the opponent to miss a turn 25% of the time, but the primary reason people use Thunder Wave and Glare is to lower an opponent's speed, and if they are harnessing full paralysis, it's in combination with a flinch chance and maybe Serene Grace to push the odds up into reliable levels.

Speaking of flinch chances, moves like Iron Head and Scald have low chances of inflicting their secondary effect, but the effect is just that. Secondary. Unless you're Jirachi, you don't run Iron Head for the flinch chance, but rather for the damage. Scald seems to bely this with Pokemon like Toxapex, who run Scald mostly for the burn chance. However, consider that Toxapex is very likely to survive long enough to use Scald many times throughout a match, pushing the chance for an eventual burn into reliable levels. It's also worth considering that on purely defensive Pokemon, Scald is much less attractive in the presence of Will-O-Wisp, as evidenced by Galarian Corsola.

Clearly, it's impossible to eliminate all luck. Damage rolls and crits are built into the very fabric of the game, and banning everything but moves with perfect accuracy and no secondary effects would obviously be absurd. So the question is not "is there luck present?" but rather "is there value in this" which is determined on a case by case basis. The chance for full paralysis is unfortunate, but we deal with it because paralysis has competitive value because the speed drop allow for interesting strategy, like supporting slow attackers, and counterplay, like switching in an already slow Pokemon to absorb the paralysis. OHKO moves may seem like more extreme versions of Focus Blast, but they're banned because outside of highly specific scenarios like Sturdy and type immunity, there is no counterplay beyond switching in something that can deal with the OHKO user and pray the move doesn't connect. Zap Cannon is similarly unreliable, but is isn't banned because it shares the same interesting counterplay of Thunder Wave. It's just that Zap Cannon is so unreliable that almost no one bothers using it, because the reward isn't worth the risk.

In its current state, Moody isn't broken just because it's random. I have no strong feelings about Moody either way, but the most of the people arguing for its re-ban are doing so because it doesn't have interesting counterplay. Glaile's gameplan revolves around spamming Protect, Substitute, and Disable in order to stall for favorable boosts. Counterplay obviously does exist, but the question of whether or not that counterplay is too restrictive or interesting is up for debate, and most people here seem to be of the opinion that it is. It has nothing to do with jealousy (really not sure where you pulled that from).

I've come to respect you in recent times, so please don't take this explanation, nor my continued confusion over why you even care about Smogon's decisions, as demeaning. I just want to explain why the situation is more complicated than you're suggesting.


They can easily use Protect to block your Taunt, then shut it down with Disable.
Good reply and counterpoints. A few comments:

I would also argue that Moody has competitive merit like your explanation for Focus Blast etc, and it’s basically the only way to make Glalie and Octillery competitive. So from that stand point, it has competitive merit if you want to use those Pokémon.
It’s sounding more and more like Substitute is the actual problem, not just for Moody abuse, but also for Nasty Plot/Dragon Dance set up sleepers like Hydreigon who abuse Substitute as well. Rather than banning Hydreigon in the near future, you could simply ban Substitute and take care of two birds with one stone. Same with the call to ban G-Darmanitan. Seems you could just ban Gorilla Tactics instead of the entire Pokémon. But I’m going on a tangent now. I like to have as many Pokémon available for the meta as possible. Like when Snow Cloak and Sand Veil we’re banned in a previous meta it made Glaceon unusable as well, which was just silly. I think we should look long and hard before rushing into banning whatever the trending annoying set of the week happens to be.

And as for the argument of “why should we be forced to include counter play Moody in every team”... well that argument is a slippery slip because we already have to be forced to include counter play for Stealth Rock in every game, and that’s just one of many similar examples (think Landorus in previous gens too). I don’t see the problem in forcing people to think about multiple counterplays when constructing a team. Your team is never going to have the perfect answer to every possible strategy. That’s just Pokémon for you. You build a solid team that handles the most common threats and hope for the best.
 
Good reply and counterpoints. A few comments:

I would also argue that Moody has competitive merit like your explanation for Focus Blast etc, and it’s basically the only way to make Glalie and Octillery competitive. So from that stand point, it has competitive merit if you want to use those Pokémon.
Wait, hold up just a minute there partner. Are you going to qualify this with any arguments or anything, or are you just going to assert that Moody is competitive because it just is?

So this doesn't get deleted for being a one-liner I'm just going to reiterate that making something viable doesn't mean that it's competitive (otherwise Mega Rayquaza is the most competitive Pokemon we've ever seen and should be allowed in all tiers because reasons). If something removes a high degree of control over the game from the hands of the players and replaces it with RNG (as Moody does), it's pretty much the exact opposite of competitive, at least as we've been defining it up until now.
 
Good reply and counterpoints. A few comments:

I would also argue that Moody has competitive merit like your explanation for Focus Blast etc, and it’s basically the only way to make Glalie and Octillery competitive. So from that stand point, it has competitive merit if you want to use those Pokémon.
It’s sounding more and more like Substitute is the actual problem, not just for Moody abuse, but also for Nasty Plot/Dragon Dance set up sleepers like Hydreigon who abuse Substitute as well. Rather than banning Hydreigon in the near future, you could simply ban Substitute and take care of two birds with one stone. Same with the call to ban G-Darmanitan. Seems you could just ban Gorilla Tactics instead of the entire Pokémon. But I’m going on a tangent now. I like to have as many Pokémon available for the meta as possible. Like when Snow Cloak and Sand Veil we’re banned in a previous meta it made Glaceon unusable as well, which was just silly. I think we should look long and hard before rushing into banning whatever the trending annoying set of the week happens to be.

And as for the argument of “why should we be forced to include counter play Moody in every team”... well that argument is a slippery slip because we already have to be forced to include counter play for Stealth Rock in every game, and that’s just one of many similar examples (think Landorus in previous gens too). I don’t see the problem in forcing people to think about multiple counterplays when constructing a team. Your team is never going to have the perfect answer to every possible strategy. That’s just Pokémon for you. You build a solid team that handles the most common threats and hope for the best.
The problem is, it doesn't just make Glalie competitive, it makes it downright impossible to find a consistent counter. Smogon's job isn't to make certain pokemon competitive, it is to weed out stuff that makes pokemon overly broken. And Substitute is far from broken, do you see anyone complaining about Sub NP Hydreigon? While Substitute certainly takes part in aiding Glalie be over the top nobody else is a good abuser, except maybe Octillery. And btw, G-Darm's GT is negated when using Choice items which are the standard right now.
And my argument was certainly not complaining about forcing to put counterplay for Moody. My complaint was the limited amount of counterplay said Moody users have(specifically Glalie).
 
And Substitute is far from broken, do you see anyone complaining about Sub NP Hydreigon?
Yes, yes I do.... right here in this thread.

My argument was based on the use of “luck” as a reason to ban Moody, and the use of “having to include counterplay in your team” as the other popular excuse. Neither are solid reasons when you apply them to other things. Okay sure, hyper offense may not be able to fit in counter play. But you don’t have to play hyper offense like everyone else. Once Dynamax gets banned hopefully more variety in teams will occur.

It’s not up to me or anyone else to prove something is not broken. It’s the other way around. Innocent until proven guilty etc.
 
And my argument was certainly not complaining about forcing to put counterplay for Moody. My complaint was the limited amount of counterplay said Moody users have(specifically Glalie).
Then why don't we actually try to make a comprehensive list of counters and potential counters? Seems to me we could sort this issue out more efficiently that way. I tried suggesting potential options earlier if you want to get started.

As far as substitute builds in general go, they are quite common in this meta. It's at the point where I would bring along counter measures for them even if moody was banned. So what I'm saying is some of the tactics that could work against general sub builds might also help against Moody.
 
One of the largest complaints i have with this metagame is not with dynamax. It can be stalled out, it can be worn through, and just because they can sweep doesn't mean you are done for, as ditto is everyfuckingwhere.
My main issue with this meta is the stally corviknight set, which just sits there and builds up boosts. There is nowhere on my team to implement a coverage move, unless I get rid of octillery which is my only defense against fire (which it does very well) anyways. It does provide many a win though so removing it seems counterproductive. Corviknight sets up sub, then just bulk ups and brave birds. Nothing you throw at it beats it unless you pack something just for it. Most of the time, dynamaxing is bad for it since it loses protection from moves, and it loses a way to healspam roost. Honestly if anyone knows a good fire type in this wasteland of seismitoad and dracovish that'd be amazing.

P.S. this might seem weird, but do i have to stick to the same team when laddering for the 81% battle royale
 
My main issue with this meta is the stally corviknight set, which just sits there and builds up boosts. There is nowhere on my team to implement a coverage move, unless I get rid of octillery which is my only defense against fire (which it does very well) anyways. It does provide many a win though so removing it seems counterproductive.
Rotom-Wash seems like an easy swap. It's just as strong as Octillery while also being faster and bulkier, it has Nasty Plot to boost without having to rely on Moody RNG, and its Electric typing lets it both resist Corviknight's Brave Birds and smash it with Thunderbolt.
 
Rotom-Wash seems like an easy swap. It's just as strong as Octillery while also being faster and bulkier, it has Nasty Plot to boost without having to rely on Moody RNG, and its Electric typing lets it both resist Corviknight's Brave Birds and smash it with Thunderbolt.
About the Gyration Cleaner, when did it lose the ability to learn Pain Split? I see a lot of older sets using it, so I tried to implement it but the system said it was illegal.
The older sets also didn't use nasty plot, although it might have not been used enough for the setmakers to care.
 
About the Gyration Cleaner, when did it lose the ability to learn Pain Split? I see a lot of older sets using it, so I tried to implement it but the system said it was illegal.
The older sets also didn't use nasty plot, although it might have not been used enough for the setmakers to care.
It lost it this gen. The older sets would be in gen 7 and plus rotom-w didn't learn nasty plot in gen 7.
 
It lost it this gen. The older sets would be in gen 7 and plus rotom-w didn't learn nasty plot in gen 7.
Ah shit. Now it has rest as its only recovery. Besides NP and the two stabs, a 4th move is seeming out of reach. I assume leftovers since choice+NP isn't wise at all, and that means I have 3 leftovers users:
Frosty (Glalie) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Disable
- Substitute
- Protect
Gyration (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
And
Bruhapult (Dragapult) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Disable
- Substitute
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
Three Lefties isn't horrid right? I think Dragapult could be better, but Glalie is really useful against seismitoad and dracovish, hitting them 4x effectiveness.
 
Ah shit. Now it has rest as its only recovery. Besides NP and the two stabs, a 4th move is seeming out of reach. I assume leftovers since choice+NP isn't wise at all, and that means I have 3 leftovers users:
Frosty (Glalie) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Disable
- Substitute
- Protect
Gyration (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
And
Bruhapult (Dragapult) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Disable
- Substitute
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
Three Lefties isn't horrid right? I think Dragapult could be better, but Glalie is really useful against seismitoad and dracovish, hitting them 4x effectiveness.
Run a bulkier set on washtom.
Volt Switch would work as the 4th move.
This should also be in a different thread I think.
Probably OU Bazaar
 
Ay I just wanted to pop in and say Arcanine is SO FUCKING GOOD rn
Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Snarl
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower

I've been running this set on stall recently after seeing it in a Blunder vid and its been putting in alot of work vs offensive teams. You basically come in on their darm lead and wow and something usually gets crippled lol. Its also super antimeta rn it handles all the crazy fairies that fuck up stall. Snarl is also p helpful cuz shit tries to come in to not get wisped and then you can snarl on the switch and get a free switch to one of ur other guys.

Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Snarl
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Power Whip

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Toxic
- Protect
I've been running this ferro arca toad fwg core on my stalls and its surprisingly effective in this garbage meta. You basically always get some kind of initiative between hazards knock toxic wow and snarl and they complement each other p nicely. Def try this set out its a good time and its been putting in way more work than i expected.

Ban Dynamax S/O The Agency

edit: I forgot to mention that it beats ferro (obv) which I've noticed alot of stalls can't handle right now
 
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I'm in agreement with removing moody, there's just no real counterplay to this besides running prankster sableye lol.

I understand why we wanted to bring it back, but I think we learned the main issue with moody is the lack of control from either player's side leading to how broken it can be, except one player has more control for "fishing" the desired boost (protect and sub) than the other has for stopping or causing undesirable boost.

Some will argue "pokemon in general is RNG", but there's different types of RNG which deem whether or not something is healthy.

Moody is essentially output variance; you're basically relying on the dice roll inorder to win. In output variance, you're letting the game take the wheel, and there's nothing you or your opponent really can do to adjust to adapt to what the dice rolls for you. Its like opening a loot box, either you get the win, or you get junk. With moody, either you get the desired boost, or you get crap and without accuracy as a stat boost, odds are more desirable and in pokemon, protect+sub lets you essentially reroll the dice for higher odds. This makes moody broken because it abuses the fact literally neither player controls the game and only one player has access to the rerolls for more chances to win.

Input variance however, is RNG that you can adapt to and doesn't decide the match. It randomly puts a player in a situation, but whoever is in that situation can still play that situation out. For example; a runerigus uses input variance when they click will-o-wisp.. they bank on the will-o-wisp landing, but instead they miss and their barraskewda evades the burn.. now this sounds bad, but the situation went from: "runerigus vs. crippled barra" to "runerigus vs. barra, proceed with the same measures you would if something u-turned barra in or if you used an attacking move instead, adapt to the miss and continue." This is healthy RNG because it adds the skill to adapt to the new situation, sure it was lucky for the barras in this scenario, but it isn't game winning for the barra just because they evaded the burn, it just means now the opponent has to setup the game in a way where they can atempt that same situation again with the burn, or they need to find a new way to counter the barra. The skill is expressed on how the rune user plays it out, and how the barra extends his advantage.

The difference between 'runerigus misses WoW on barra' and 'glalie protected the taunt and got +spe on the opposing weavile' is that the weavile isn't put in a situation that it can readjust to, it just simply lost the dice roll to glalie, will get taunt disabled, and switching out will still result in dice rolling additional boost on the glalie, this removes the ability to input an action, because the game already outputted the win for the glalie. Citizen snips is similar to this but the player still has to input acupressure, in order to gain its boost, which allows the opponent to be in a situation where they can threaten it to use a different attack rather than acupressure again. Moody is entirely auto-pilot and the game plays it for you.
 
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I'm in agreement with removing moody, there's just no real counterplay to this besides running prankster sableye lol.
Really? Just one? It's hard to seriously discuss counterplay when most people who are whining about the lack of options to deal with Moody also seem to be ignoring every chance to actually explore what these options really might be. To be blunt, it is starting to seem like excuses to me. I'm going to suggest for a third time in this thread that people actually try to examine all these potential counterplay options in more depth before crying that there are none. And this time, let's be really clear about making a list so we can cross things off that don't really work. I will get it started so it actually happens. So far, I have seen a few potential methods that have been suggested for countering Moody and/or Moody Glalie.

Potential Moody Counterplay:
  1. Counter Abilities - To counter ability with ability.
  2. Prankster - For priority status.
  3. Infiltrator - For Substitute.
  4. Priority Damage - To priority 1HKO.
  5. Roar - To phase out stat boosted pokemon.
  6. Whirlwind - Also to phase out stat boosted pokemon.
I'll also add Unaware just to see if we can rule it out easier. If anyone can think of anything else to add, please say so. Unfortunately, I won't have quite enough time to get to Haze and sound based moves like Hyper Voice before I post this. So we can examine that after. For each potential counterplay method, I will list every pokemon that is the highest in their evolution line that is available in Gen 8 and can do one of these things to maybe possibly provide some sort of counter play to Moody. Before I do that, I just want to explain some things...

First, Roar and Whirlwind could be harder to stop once Dynamax is likely banned. In the same vein, I'm only going to post pokemon with a speed of 80+ for Roar and Whirlwind since Glalie also has a speed of 80. The assumption is that Glalie gets enough boosts to take out most walls, so you likely have to outspeed it with Choice Scarf or whatnot.

Next is the symbols I will use as shorthand. Pokemon with an * next to their name will have a potential hidden ability that hasn't be released yet, but could be potential options in the future. Pokemon with a + next to their name are in multiple lists, and thus should only be counted once in the total list. Pokemon with names crossed out are almost certainly too low tier and/or lacking to be effective in OU with this strategy. Keep in mind I'll be mostly extremely lenient at first with crossing out UU names just so we can be sure to examine them fairly.

Lists of Pokemon with these Capabilities:

  1. Weezing-Galar (Neutralizing Gas)
  2. Runerigus - (Wandering Spirit)
  3. Cofagrigus (Mummy)
Available and Potentially Viable: 3
  1. Sableye
  2. Riolu
  3. Liepard*
  4. Whimsicott+
  5. Meowstic*
  6. Grimmsnarl
Available and Potentially Viable: 3
  1. Ninjask
  2. Whimsicott+
  3. Chandelure
  4. Meowstic
  5. Malamar
  6. Noivern+
  7. Dragapult
Available and Potentially Viable: 6
  1. Lucario+ (Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Extreme Speed)
  2. Conkeldurr (Mach Punch + Guts)
  3. Hitmonlee (Mach Punch + Bullet Punch)
  4. Hitmonchan (Mach Punch + Bullet Punch + Iron Fist)
  5. Hitmontop (Mach Punch + Bullet Punch + Technician)
  6. Arcanine+ (Extreme Speed)
  7. Raichu (Extreme Speed)
  8. Toxicroak (Bullet Punch)
  9. Machamp (Bullet Punch)
  10. Pangoro (Bullet Punch + Iron Fist)
Available and Potentially Viable: 9
  1. Jolteon
  2. Boltund
  3. Persian
  4. Manectric
  5. Charizard
  6. Ninetails
  7. Mew+
  8. Hydreigon
  9. Haxorus
  10. Arcanine+
  11. Drapion+
  12. Leafeon
  13. Silvally
  14. Lucario+
  15. Skunktank
  16. Gyarados
  17. Mamoswine
Available and Potentially Viable: 15
  1. Noivern+
  2. Mew+
  3. Sigilyph
  4. Drapion+
  5. Shiftry
  6. Braviary
  7. Mandibuzz
Available and Potentially Viable: 5
  1. Swoobat
  2. Clefable*
  3. Quagsire
  4. Pyukumuku
Available and Potentially Viable: 1

Total List:

  1. Weezing-Galar
  2. Runerigus
  3. Cofagrigus
  4. Sableye
  5. Whimsicott+
  6. Grimmsnarl
  7. Ninjask
  8. Chandelure
  9. Meowstic
  10. Malamar
  11. Dragapult
  12. Lucario+
  13. Conkeldurr
  14. Hitmonlee
  15. Hitmonchan
  16. Hitmontop
  17. Arcanine+
  18. Toxicroak
  19. Machamp
  20. Pangoro
  21. Jolteon
  22. Boltund
  23. Charizard
  24. Ninetails
  25. Mew+
  26. Hydreigon
  27. Haxorus
  28. Drapion+
  29. Leafeon
  30. Silvally
  31. Skunktank
  32. Gyarados
  33. Mamoswine
  34. Sigilyph
  35. Shiftry
  36. Mandibuzz
  37. Pyukumuku

Conclusion:

I spent a few hours searching on Pokemon Showdown and compiling all this, and I found nearly 40 pokemon that could potentially have some counterplay against Moody according to various strategies. And I haven't even gotten into Haze or sound based moves yet. Will all of these pokemon I listed actually be viable options in OU while also being viable checks or counter to Moody? No! Of course not. Many of them, if not most of them, should be crossed off as we go through them with more scrutiny. On the other hand, some of them could be good options.

So the next time someone comes on here whining about how there are not enough options for Moody counterplay, please take a hard look at this list before you arbitrarily dismiss most of the emerging metagame.

And to prevent any potential misunderstandings, I will emphasize that I am not here to make an argument that all of these pokemon will definitely be good counters for Moody in OU. The actual point is for us to start really ruling things out so that we have an idea of how many (or few) truly viable options there actually are.
 
Actually, there is another potential check to Moody Glalie: Sacred Sword Aegislash.

As Sacred Sword ignores Defense’s boosts (and nerfs, too, but in that case you could use Iron Head for more damage with STAB), it doesn’t matter if Glalie is at 6+, Aegislash will always cleanly inflict around 75~% in damage when unboosted, which would make it harder for Glalie to spam Substitute. Also, you can predict eventual Disables with King’s Shield or “sacrifice” Shadow Sneak to have the other player lock that move instead, allowing you to keep your opponents on their toes with your free Sacred Sword.

Now I’m not sure if Aegi would be as effective against Octillery due to the latter having access to Flamethrower, but it could be very useful against Glalie if you play smart with it.
 
Right, so let's apply this exact same style of analysis to something else... How about Evasion clause?


Potential Evasion counterplay

1: Counter abilities (Specifically No Guard, Keen Eye, and Unaware)
- Negates/ignores Evasion boosts.
2: Taunt - Prevents set-up.
3: Haze -
Removes boosts, no hit check.
4: Whirlwind/Roar -
Removes boosts, no hit check, doesn't work against last Pokemon.
5: Hit check ignoring moves
- Ignores evasion boosts, often weak and may require Attack/Sp. Atk boosts to deal actual damage.

Well, okay, there's only 5 potential counterplay options for Evasi- hang on a second, you counted Roar and Whirlwind separately despite them functionally being the same thing. That's cheating. So there's effectively the same amount of different counterplay options available for Moody and for Evasion-boosting moves (and they overlap heavily). Let's see how often those counterplay options actually appear.

Clefable
Quagsire
Swoobat
Pyukumuku

I'd argue Pyukumuku isn't really a viable stop to Evasion boosting but it stops it as well as it stops Moody, so it counts I guess. Unlike Moody, Quagsire can check many evasion boosters though.

Braviary
Drapion
Hitmonchan
Sableye
Meowstic
Noctowl
Pelipper

Skuntank

Ok, so most of these users suck. Braviary is actually pretty decent this generation, and I'd say Hitmonchan, Drapion, Meowstic, and Skuntank are all usable, if not particularly amazing.

Doublade
Golurk
Machamp

Doublade is a pretty slept on Pokemon. Golurk and Machamp aren't great but they're usable.

So being optimistic that's 11 Pokemon that can check Evasion boosts just through abilities alone. We could probably cut a few of these out like Meowstic and Skuntank as they're unlikely to be viable in the upper tiers, but they are options that aren't ludicrously outclassed like Noctowl or something.


A lot of shit gets Taunt, did you really expect me to list all of them? Highlights include Bisharp, Cinderace, Conkeldurr, Corviknight, Darmanitan, Gengar, Golisopod, Grimmsnarl, Gyarados, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Jellicent, Kommo-O, Mew, Noivern, Runerigus, Sableye, Toxtricity, Tyranitar, and Weavile.

So, uh, yeah. I guess we can toss out Darmanitan, because Gorilla Tactics sets aren't going to run Taunt for obvious reasons, and Zen Mode sets are never going to have room for Taunt, but we're still left with 19 users that are almost certainly going to be viable in the upper tiers.

Chandelure
Cofagrigus
Corsola-Galar
Dusclops
Gengar*
Intelleon
Mantine
Milotic
Quagsire*
Runerigus*
Skuntank*
Toxapex
Vaporeon
Weezing-Galar

14 viable users of Haze. Discarding the ones that already receive other means of dealing with Evasion boosts, we're left with 10 more users that haven't already been counted for something else.

Arcanine
Hippowdon
Hydreigon*
Ninetales

4 potentially viable Roar users, 3 of which haven't been counted for anything else yet.

Braviary*
Copperajah
Drapion*
Hippowdon*
Mandibuzz
Noivern*

6 viable Whirlwind users, but 4 of them have already been counted for other reasons, so we're left with 2.

Aura Sphere = Lucario, Mew*, Kommo-O*, Togekiss
Smart Strike = Cloyster, Drednaw, Escavalier, Excadrill, Falinks, Mew*, Rapidash-Galar, Rhydon/Rhyperior
Aerial Ace + boosting move = Aegislash*, Gallade, Hawlucha
Vital Throw = Machamp*, Pangoro

I feel like there's probably some moves that I'm missing here, but we still have 13 viable users of never-miss moves that ignore Evasion boosts. This isn't even getting into more niche options like Body Slam/Stomp to punish Minimize, or Clear Smog, which can negate Evasion boosts but has to pass a hit check itself first and can be countered with Substitute or a Steel-type Evasion booster.


So, in total we have at least 55 potentially viable Pokemon that have access to counterplay to evasion. Will all of them be viable checks in OU? No. But clearly this proves that there is plenty of counterplay available for Evasion, right? So that means Evasion should be allowed, because there's counterplay to it, so clearly it's healthy for the metagame, right?

No, not fucking right, this entire post was pointless and no offense but so was yours. The issue, like I've said a few times now, isn't a lack of counterplay. There's a difference between something being broken (lacking a reasonable amount of counterplay, such as Mega Rayquaza in Ubers or Mega Salamence/Kangaskhan in OU) and something being uncompetitive (taking control of the match away from the players and placing it in the hands of the almighty Random Number Generator instead, such as Evasion and, yes, Moody). Moody is no longer broken, but it's still uncompetitive, in the same way that Evasion is uncompetitive.

I have yet to hear a good argument as to why we should allow an ability that relies 100% purely on luck with not an ounce of skill, prediction, or planning involved and offers utterly no strategic benefit to the metagame. The closest I've gotten is "we can't negate luck from being a factor completely, so we should just allow every pure luck based strategy ever", and by that standard, and the standard you've set in your post, we should be unbanning Evasion moves as well. I'd love to hear an argument for keeping Moody that can't also be applied to Evasion, and no this isn't a smug rhetorical question, I'm open to the possibility of me being deadass wrong, but I have yet to hear an argument that proves it.
 
I think Moody needs to be severely looked at right now, after watching numerous replays over here and on PS. I thought that the Evasion stat not being included with the stat buffs/nerfs would make it OK, but in actuality it managed to make the entire problem much worse.

The biggest problem with the change is that now it is more likely to boost stats that make it obnoxious to deal with the Moody 'mon, most notably Glalie (from 1/6 to 1/5). With the right rolls, the Pokemon will be next to impossible to actually put down. It is important to know all of the scenarios statistically, because there are numerous scenarios where multiple stats that are increased lead into a frustrating game for the opponent.

Sp. Attack boosts, since the only relevant move for Glalie will most likely be Freeze-Dry, can cripple what would be checks to the set in general, turning it into a wallbreaker that has no business being so strong along with the potential for having other stats boosted in the same vein. However, they are the least relevant of the boosts above because of how lasting the effects are for the other stats.

Defense/Sp. Defense boosts are arguably the most relevant, as they can stall out the battle longer to create more boosts for themselves, which is what allows Moody to become a problem in astronomical proportions. The biggest point in these boosts is that it allows Glalie to have sturdier Substitutes, allowing it to not only be affected by statuses, but also gather more turns at accumulating boosts. Doing this when you get them as initial boosts is insanely easy, and turns a Moody 'mon to a threat for all the wrong reasons to every single Pokemon, bar 'mons that are EXPLICITLY built to combat it.

Speed is one that's oft overlooked, and are just as relevant as Defense/Sp. Defense boosts. With Speed boosts, the Moody 'mon straight up eliminates checks that would otherwise control it. Even noteworthy Pokemon of this generation like Scarf Vish and Dragapult w/o Scarf have to be careful of a Moody 'mon that can outspeed and KO it for attempting to deal with Lady Luck. Ferrothorn and Toxapex WOULD be checks, but being faster than it allows it to Sub + Protect for the boosts that it wants to deal with them, regardless of the Speed drops. When a Moody 'mon gets faster, the amount of checks to stop it become close to zero because of how it can control the entire pace of the game off of the foundation of Moody's luck with very little skill or risk involved.

All these factors lead to Moody having a very unhealthy effect in the meta, and one that almost mirrors Dynamax in that it gets way too much momentum and can just be dropped on a dime. The counter-points are meek as a result. Prankster, Infiltrator, Priority, and Counter Abilities don't mean much when you can just stall and accumulate boosts that actually defeat these methods of counterplay, and changing movesets just to accommodate for a single, sketchy 'mon, strat, or Ability is highly frowned upon within the development of metas.

tl;dr: Moody needs a suspect test or a quickban due to its insane ability of eliminating control from the players with very high reward and very little actual and healthy counterplay.
 
No, not fucking right, this entire post was pointless and no offense but so was yours. The issue, like I've said a few times now, isn't a lack of counterplay. There's a difference between something being broken (lacking a reasonable amount of counterplay, such as Mega Rayquaza in Ubers or Mega Salamence/Kangaskhan in OU) and something being uncompetitive (taking control of the match away from the players and placing it in the hands of the almighty Random Number Generator instead, such as Evasion and, yes, Moody). Moody is no longer broken, but it's still uncompetitive, in the same way that Evasion is uncompetitive.

I have yet to hear a good argument as to why we should allow an ability that relies 100% purely on luck with not an ounce of skill, prediction, or planning involved and offers utterly no strategic benefit to the metagame. The closest I've gotten is "we can't negate luck from being a factor completely, so we should just allow every pure luck based strategy ever", and by that standard, and the standard you've set in your post, we should be unbanning Evasion moves as well. I'd love to hear an argument for keeping Moody that can't also be applied to Evasion, and no this isn't a smug rhetorical question, I'm open to the possibility of me being deadass wrong, but I have yet to hear an argument that proves it.
There have been plenty of folks on here arguing about the lack of counterplay for Moody and listing it as a reason for why it should be banned. The actual point of my post was a response to that. In addition, it might be useful for those who are bothered by Moody right now when a ban hasn't happened yet and may not for awhile, if it even happens. So the other point of my post is to help people find solutions to this problem, even if it is only temporary.

You disagree that there is a lack of counterplay for Moody? Great. Then we agree on something.

As far as it being uncompetative goes, I think that's largely a subjective and circular argument. To use your own words, I think you could apply that same argument to nearly any luck based mechanic in the entire game. Does that actually mean anything? I assume we don't ban every one (like Quick Claw and Acupressure) because it's not practical. Mechanically, Moody is not all that different to me than any other sub + stat boosting build, except most of those tend to be more active instead of completely passive. Substitute + Acupressure is especially similar from an RNG standpoint. Obviously, the passive stat buff is a benefit there for Moody. But without Evasion, is that aspect of Moody really all that different than any other stat boosting abilities like Speed Boost? I would argue Speed Boost is potentially far more problematic, particularly if Ninjask wasn't the only pokemon left with it in gen 8. Is Speed Boost competitive just because it isn't RNG? I think that would be a flawed way of looking at it.

What I'm trying to say is, what is really the problem with Moody? Is it counterplay options? Well, no. We seem to have established that there is some counterplay. Is it the passive stat boosts? Well, not exactly because Moxie, Unburden, and Speed Boost are all fine. Is it RNG? Well, no. Other things have just as much RNG involved and they aren't being thought of in quite the same way. Yet this uncompetitive argument seems to be based largely on that aspect. What about Ancient Power or Ominous Wind? What about Psywave? What about Quick Claw? What about Acupressure?

For the record, I have no strong preference one way or another for Moody being banned or not. Maybe I'm even 60%-40% in favor of it being banned just so I don't have to deal with it. Although, I would still probably wait until after Dynamax is banned to decide just because that impacts a lot. I'm not here to soldier on about if I think Moody should be banned or not because I don't really feel strongly about it. The actual discussion seemed like it was heading in a bad place to me.

All these factors lead to Moody having a very unhealthy effect in the meta, and one that almost mirrors Dynamax in that it gets way too much momentum and can just be dropped on a dime. The counter-points are meek as a result. Prankster, Infiltrator, Priority, and Counter Abilities don't mean much when you can just stall and accumulate boosts that actually defeat these methods of counterplay, and changing movesets just to accommodate for a single, sketchy 'mon, strat, or Ability is highly frowned upon within the development of metas.

tl;dr: Moody needs a suspect test or a quickban due to its insane ability of eliminating control from the players with very high reward and very little actual and healthy counterplay.
The irony of yet another person on here complaining about the counterplay just further proves my point. Because of you, I get put this in the same post as the person who just said that they keep saying the lack of counterplay wasn't the issue. Thanks I guess.

You listed some of the counter measures I did, yet you didn't seem to look hard enough at these counter measures to see how they actually might work. Glalie can't stall for boosts if it doesn't gain boosts because Galarian Weezing has Neutralizing Gas. That's the point of Counter Abilities in the first place. To prevent Moody's effect. Moody builds use Protect and Substitute to stall. The point of Infiltrator is it goes past sub. The Moody abuser can't stall indefinitely if they take a full attack every other turn. Etc. And the whole idea is that you find ones that also work in OU in general or as counters to other things as well.
 
Really? Just one? It's hard to seriously discuss counterplay when most people who are whining about the lack of options to deal with Moody also seem to be ignoring every chance to actually explore what these options really might be. To be blunt, it is starting to seem like excuses to me. I'm going to suggest for a third time in this thread that people actually try to examine all these potential counterplay options in more depth before crying that there are none. And this time, let's be really clear about making a list so we can cross things off that don't really work. I will get it started so it actually happens. So far, I have seen a few potential methods that have been suggested for countering Moody and/or Moody Glalie.

Potential Moody Counterplay:
  1. Counter Abilities - To counter ability with ability.
  2. Prankster - For priority status.
  3. Infiltrator - For Substitute.
  4. Priority Damage - To priority 1HKO.
  5. Roar - To phase out stat boosted pokemon.
  6. Whirlwind - Also to phase out stat boosted pokemon.
I'll also add Unaware just to see if we can rule it out easier. If anyone can think of anything else to add, please say so. Unfortunately, I won't have quite enough time to get to Haze and sound based moves like Hyper Voice before I post this. So we can examine that after. For each potential counterplay method, I will list every pokemon that is the highest in their evolution line that is available in Gen 8 and can do one of these things to maybe possibly provide some sort of counter play to Moody. Before I do that, I just want to explain some things...

First, Roar and Whirlwind could be harder to stop once Dynamax is likely banned. In the same vein, I'm only going to post pokemon with a speed of 80+ for Roar and Whirlwind since Glalie also has a speed of 80. The assumption is that Glalie gets enough boosts to take out most walls, so you likely have to outspeed it with Choice Scarf or whatnot.

Next is the symbols I will use as shorthand. Pokemon with an * next to their name will have a potential hidden ability that hasn't be released yet, but could be potential options in the future. Pokemon with a + next to their name are in multiple lists, and thus should only be counted once in the total list. Pokemon with names crossed out are almost certainly too low tier and/or lacking to be effective in OU with this strategy. Keep in mind I'll be mostly extremely lenient at first with crossing out UU names just so we can be sure to examine them fairly.

Lists of Pokemon with these Capabilities:

  1. Weezing-Galar (Neutralizing Gas)
  2. Runerigus - (Wandering Spirit)
  3. Cofagrigus (Mummy)
Available and Potentially Viable: 3
  1. Sableye
  2. Riolu
  3. Liepard*
  4. Whimsicott+
  5. Meowstic*
  6. Grimmsnarl
Available and Potentially Viable: 3
  1. Ninjask
  2. Whimsicott+
  3. Chandelure
  4. Meowstic
  5. Malamar
  6. Noivern+
  7. Dragapult
Available and Potentially Viable: 6
  1. Lucario+ (Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Extreme Speed)
  2. Conkeldurr (Mach Punch + Guts)
  3. Hitmonlee (Mach Punch + Bullet Punch)
  4. Hitmonchan (Mach Punch + Bullet Punch + Iron Fist)
  5. Hitmontop (Mach Punch + Bullet Punch + Technician)
  6. Arcanine+ (Extreme Speed)
  7. Raichu (Extreme Speed)
  8. Toxicroak (Bullet Punch)
  9. Machamp (Bullet Punch)
  10. Pangoro (Bullet Punch + Iron Fist)
Available and Potentially Viable: 9
  1. Jolteon
  2. Boltund
  3. Persian
  4. Manectric
  5. Charizard
  6. Ninetails
  7. Mew+
  8. Hydreigon
  9. Haxorus
  10. Arcanine+
  11. Drapion+
  12. Leafeon
  13. Silvally
  14. Lucario+
  15. Skunktank
  16. Gyarados
  17. Mamoswine
Available and Potentially Viable: 15
  1. Noivern+
  2. Mew+
  3. Sigilyph
  4. Drapion+
  5. Shiftry
  6. Braviary
  7. Mandibuzz
Available and Potentially Viable: 5
  1. Swoobat
  2. Clefable*
  3. Quagsire
  4. Pyukumuku
Available and Potentially Viable: 1

Total List:

  1. Weezing-Galar
  2. Runerigus
  3. Cofagrigus
  4. Sableye
  5. Whimsicott+
  6. Grimmsnarl
  7. Ninjask
  8. Chandelure
  9. Meowstic
  10. Malamar
  11. Dragapult
  12. Lucario+
  13. Conkeldurr
  14. Hitmonlee
  15. Hitmonchan
  16. Hitmontop
  17. Arcanine+
  18. Toxicroak
  19. Machamp
  20. Pangoro
  21. Jolteon
  22. Boltund
  23. Charizard
  24. Ninetails
  25. Mew+
  26. Hydreigon
  27. Haxorus
  28. Drapion+
  29. Leafeon
  30. Silvally
  31. Skunktank
  32. Gyarados
  33. Mamoswine
  34. Sigilyph
  35. Shiftry
  36. Mandibuzz
  37. Pyukumuku

Conclusion:

I spent a few hours searching on Pokemon Showdown and compiling all this, and I found nearly 40 pokemon that could potentially have some counterplay against Moody according to various strategies. And I haven't even gotten into Haze or sound based moves yet. Will all of these pokemon I listed actually be viable options in OU while also being viable checks or counter to Moody? No! Of course not. Many of them, if not most of them, should be crossed off as we go through them with more scrutiny. On the other hand, some of them could be good options.

So the next time someone comes on here whining about how there are not enough options for Moody counterplay, please take a hard look at this list before you arbitrarily dismiss most of the emerging metagame.

And to prevent any potential misunderstandings, I will emphasize that I am not here to make an argument that all of these pokemon will definitely be good counters for Moody in OU. The actual point is for us to start really ruling things out so that we have an idea of how many (or few) truly viable options there actually are.
Many many mons from your lists are not effective.
- Cofag/rune need to make contact and glalie does not make contact.
- Prankster is not counterplay? It's an ability. And besides, there are videos of paralyzed/statused glalie still going HAM and living everything. And glalie probly already has a sub up.
- Infiltrator, yeah it helps with the sub, doesn't help with protect into disable tho.
- Priority sure, just make sure he didn't get enough defense boosts before you make your move. Also maybe all you get to do is break it's sub. Or maybe it protect + disables again.
- Phazing, yes, this is 100% valid counterplay. nice. Sidenote, speed does not matter on a phazer, roar and whirlwind have -6 priority and will always go last.
 
So really I spent an hour making a very good thread fo Gothitelle and just instant locked and shes not gertting her own thread... why is that? Nasty Plot does help her a ton... and I honestly think the Shadow Tag Ban is a little much. Yes is strong but with so many moves now to escape its not as bad.

Still, I think She can be better without shadow tag thanks to Nasty plot. It raises her a ton with Competitive too, to hit even harder.

But can she make it to OU, or will she just be UU?
 
So really I spent an hour making a very good thread fo Gothitelle and just instant locked and shes not gertting her own thread... why is that? Nasty Plot does help her a ton... and I honestly think the Shadow Tag Ban is a little much. Yes is strong but with so many moves now to escape its not as bad.

Still, I think She can be better without shadow tag thanks to Nasty plot. It raises her a ton with Competitive too, to hit even harder.

But can she make it to OU, or will she just be UU?
Gothitelle without Shadow Tag is outclassed by many other special sweepers in the tier. She's slow as well, meaning that she's only viable in trick room sets, which aren't seen very commonly. Hatterene does everything Goth does but better
 
Gothitelle without Shadow Tag is outclassed by many other special sweepers in the tier. She's slow as well, meaning that she's only viable in trick room sets, which aren't seen very commonly. Hatterene does everything Goth does but better
Isn't she actually faster then Hatterene? And Hatterene doesn't get Nasty Plot, which Gothitelle now does thanks to the TR. She never had that option before. Nasty Plot and Competitive is a very fast 4 stage stat raise.
 
Isn't she actually faster then Hatterene? And Hatterene doesn't get Nasty Plot, which Gothitelle now does thanks to the TR. She never had that option before. Nasty Plot and Competitive is a very fast 4 stage stat raise.
Goth is faster, but Nasty Plot isn't needed on Hatterene because it has a base special attack stat that's over 40 points higher than Gothitelle's, and Magic Bounce is a much better ability than Competitive in this OU metagame right now
 
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