Vikavolt requires magnetic field in gen 7 and evolves with Thunder Stone in SwSh.
You can easily guess how Magnezone and Probopass will work ;)
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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You can easily guess how Magnezone and Probopass will work ;)
That what annoys me most about ORAS. As you mentioned, they could have used Emerald as a basis with it changes (teams, adding more Double Battles, etc.) and then stuck in the Ruby & Sapphire exclusive content (which was mainly just the story bits plus version exclusives). But nope, it was completely a remake of Ruby & Sapphire with only some references to Emerald which felt more like an insult. "Yeah, we could have remade Emerald or included all of Emeralds improvements... but then we'd have to compare the differences between three games instead of two and we don't have time for that". It makes me wonder if they just didn't want to include the Battle Frontier so used the excuse it was a RS remake and not Emerald even though HGSS had no problem including all of Crystal's content. Not to mention they even removed improvements that XY introduced like customizing you trainer. Also, why point out the Gym Leaders in the Rematch Call when you can't rematch the Gym Leader? Or better yet, let us rematch the Gym Leaders! How did that get pass/approved?
That's of course not to say everything is bad about ORAS, but compared with its other fellow remakes its a downgrade from what they did of only adding in content and improvements done in the new generation without removing anything. Since Sinnoh doesn't have a split plot like Hoenn did hopefully their remakes will be based off Platinum.
But I still feel it's a good rant about SM's story being better than USUM's so I'll keep it). USUM's story took SM's story but then tried to wedge additionally elements that didn't belong into it causing it to get bloated and forced them to make changes that weakened the story compared to SM:- Ultra Recon Squad is built up to be an interesting group of characters and possible obstacles/antagonists to overcome but they do nothing, after their first battle they only use Poipole who is easily beaten, and their presence caused the changes in the game that made it worse compared to SM. And even post game nothing is done with them nor Ultra Megalopolis which was a huge tease for nothing.
- At first it didn't seem like they changed the Aether family story... until they suddenly do when Lusamine explains her intentions aren't to be with the Nihilego but instead stop Necrozma from taking over the world. Yet she's still treated like the villain as she was in SM. In addition to that parts of Lillie's growth as a character is left on the cutting room floor: her going to Exeggutor Island with you and tells you how much she appreciates your help (it's now instead the mayor of the Seafolk which we don't care about), her confronting Lusamine is done OOF SCREEN, and since Lusamine didn't fuse with Nihilego her and Lillie don't go off to Kanto while Gladion takes over the Aether Foundation. Instead Lusamine remains the boss and seemingly unpunished for the abusive treatment of her children, Lillie is just floundering around Alola instead of going on an adventure in other regions, and its Gladion who goes to Kanto but then after a week or so comes back to be a Title Challenge opponent.
- And while not story, aside from the Ultra Space locations (which weren't very big) they didn't add in any major new locations where there was plenty they could (the gold course, that castle around the Lake of Moone/Sunne, didn't include diving locations, etc.).
I would actually choose to play vanilla SM again instead of USUM, sure I'm missing out on the Rainbow Rocket episode though I'll have the Looker Missions which USUM took out for no reason and I find that more interesting then just a boss rush of the past villains.
I wouldn't go as far as saying it was a mistake, but implementation into other core games was very poorly handled. I don't get why Meltan doesn't have a normal evolution method, what's the point? Meltan stats are no more impressive then a basic Pokemon of a 3-stage family so there's no point in having it be a standalone Pokemon, it should evolve into Meltan (either at level 40 to reference the 400 candies originally needed or make it a trade holding Metal Coat or Magnet if they want to keep in-lore).
They could also just have Nosepass evolve by trading it while holding a Metal Coat/Magnet/Hard Stone. Or, in the case of Magnezone, just the Magnet.
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I'm afraid you're misreading again -- they're saying that SM has a better story, but that's one of few positives and to them it's not enough to make SM overall better than USUM.
Fixed.
Though I guess I could change the question to what about USUM was different that, if they wanted to, they would replay USUM over SM again. Because I'm trying to think (yes, the person who made two obvious reading mistakes today is now trying to deeply think, I know I probably should just quit while I'm behind) of differences between SM and USUM that'll make USUM better but to me they're essentially the same game.
Gameplay wise it is genuinely a lot better. There's many new Pokémon including Ampharos, Hawlucha, Honchkrow etc to choose from that makes repeat playthroughs more interesting; the move tutors also mean you've got access to some nice options; there's little things like Magnezone and Vikavolt evolving in a much earlier (and much more sensible) place; the Mantine Surfing beaches add a fair bit to me; and in general a lot of places are spruced up to look better and have more things to do.
Despite all that, I still much prefer SM because USUM wrecked the narrative just that much, and I'm frustrated that a far improved Alola was not coupled with vanilla SM's superior, tighter storytelling.
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Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
When I first heard about the plot butchering, that right there was what dissuaded me from buying either one of the Ultra games at launch (that and the short timeframe since OG SM launching). Even now I'm not sure I wanna even try them, the gameplay improvements seem interesting enough but the whole Lillie/Lusamine arc is so vital to the identity of Gen 7 IMO that I can't say in good confidence that all the other improvements were worth it. Like yeah, USUM had a bigger Pokedex, but the OG SM dex was fine enough, it's not a Diamond and Pearl situation where the lesser amount of Pokemon is making the game design burst at the seams, hell at the time it released SM's 300 was tied with BW2 for the 2nd largest regional Pokedex the series had ever seen up to that point. Rainbow Rocket's a fun fanservicey romp, but the Looker UB sidequest was also a thing that existed in SM but not Ultra that was a bit more interesting storywise, seeing Anabel become an amnesiac secret agent was a creative use for a semi-forgotten chaarcter. All these little improvements as Kurona said, but all of them were dwarfed the removal of one of the original's biggest traits, the storyline of a little girl escaping a manipulative parent and growing up in the process that touched so many people around the world. For that alone, I'm unsure about trying these titles, and I don't think I ever will. I'll always adore and praise Gen 7, but that comes from my love for Sun and Moon, not the "Ultra" titles.
(also the disgusting cyrus theme remix seriously wtf did they do to my boi fucking hell)
(also the disgusting cyrus theme remix seriously wtf did they do to my boi fucking hell)
I frankly prefer USUM's story.
I mean, sure, it doesn't have the nice Ultra Beast subquest and removes the only moment where the player can sympathise with Lillie at all, but the whole family drama of SM felt so pointless I couldn't care about it (and it has no urgency whatsoever after Lusamine crosses the Ultra Wormhole). I'm not a fan of "defeat this legendary or the world is doomed" story in Pokémon but I'd rather have that than Purity Sue and her First World Problems.
To be more precise, I... don't really like USUM's story either, but I think it's less bad than that of USUM as the final segment of the story shoves that family drama aside.
I mean, sure, it doesn't have the nice Ultra Beast subquest and removes the only moment where the player can sympathise with Lillie at all, but the whole family drama of SM felt so pointless I couldn't care about it (and it has no urgency whatsoever after Lusamine crosses the Ultra Wormhole). I'm not a fan of "defeat this legendary or the world is doomed" story in Pokémon but I'd rather have that than Purity Sue and her First World Problems.
To be more precise, I... don't really like USUM's story either, but I think it's less bad than that of USUM as the final segment of the story shoves that family drama aside.
This could be my bias talking, but honestly if you want to see what USUM is about first watch a playthrough on Youtube. Then if you think you like what you see you can then consider getting it.
While I make it sound like I hate USUM, I did have my fun with it, though that's mainly because I went off my usual playstyle of choosing the Fire Starter so had to form a new team slightly differently (plus I didn't want to re-use any Pokemon I used on my Moon team which ended up me raising two psuedo Legendaries (Bagon & Beldum) and that was actually a fun experience when they go from deadweight to decent to all-powerful).
And if I have to give USUM's story one point I did think they did improve Hau's involvement.
That is another thing. There's an important question you need to answer to whether you'll like SM's story or may prefer USUM's: Do you care about Lillie?
Yes: SM's story is a much better conclusion for her story. Your final boss is an unholy Pokemon-human fusion, and though you don't fight it directly, it powers-up the Pokemon it uses. And your post game story involved helping Looker & Anabel hunt Ultra Beasts while also learning a bit about the International Police's past operation and the Aether Foundation's relation to them.
No: Then you might as well play USUM as Lillie's story does fade in the end to make way for stopping Necrozma from eating all of the Pokemon world's light. Your final boss is an eldritch abomination dragon made of light that gives itself a stat boost in each stat. And your post game story involved a dimension travelling Giovanni gathering villain leaders from other gens to take over your world.
From what I found, that's hardly an unpopular poinion.
Yeah, that's a very common opinion. However, I have an unpopular opinion of my own that runs counter to yours: some of Gen 1's jank was actually really cool and I wish it was kept.
Let's start with the big one: Hyper Beam. Gen 1 Hyper Beam has got to be one of the coolest moves in the franchise. It has the potential to plow through softened teams, but if it ever didn't land a KO, you were in deep trouble. Immaculate risk/reward ratio. In every game since, Hyper Beam and its recharging brethren have been unviable garbage.
Mimic and Disable worked a bit differently in Gen 1. Instead of copying/disabling the last move used by the target (and failing if the target has not moved since being sent out), they chose one of the target's moves at random. This isn't great for Disable (it works well enough as a niche pick on fast Sub users who want to prevent the opponent from using the move they just used and are very likely to want to use again) but Mimic works much better with its Gen 1 mechanics. Not only does it work on a target switching in, but it has nice scouting potential, sort of like a mini-Transform.
In Gen 1, if a move had a chance to inflict a status condition (or maybe just paralysis, I'm not sure) it would not be able to inflict the status against targets of the same type. Translated into modern times, that would mean you could switch your Gyarados into Scald all day long without fear.
Finally, we come to Rage. Gen 1 Rage has the unique effect of preventing the user from doing anything else until it faints. A bit like Thrash or Outrage, except it never ends. With some tweaking to its base damage and its method of powering up (starting at ~70 and adding 20 for each hit until ~150 sounds like a good place to start) it could make for an interesting cleaning move.
I'm with you on enjoying the Gen 1 Hyper Beam mechanics of skipping the recharge turn if it nets a KO, but Hyper Beam is a tough one to balance because of the raw power of the move. You get enough boosts for it to OHKO everything remaining on the opposing team and there's literally no counterplay. Situations like that still occur, but theyre less common because the base power of usual sweeping moves is less.
Maybe weaken the move if used on consecutive turns? Down to 120/100 or something.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Aight it's time to wrap up the "Dramps shitting on Johto" arc while simultaneously fellating the father, son and holy spirit Gen 7
I wholeheartedly believe Gen 7 did Kanto fanservice/lore connections better than Gen 2 for the simple reason that at no point does it feel like the fanservice came at the expense of the region's quality or identity, even if giving some love to other generations of Pokemon would have been appreciated.
Gen 2 went much farther with it and was more justified as a direct sequel of sorts to Gen 1, sure. But we've already gone over in other threads how it did this in a way that in many ways hurt Johto itself: Gym leaders neglecting to use Johto Pokemon at all, the Kanto postgame likely being a major contributor to the generally horrendous level curve, and really just the lack of an identity Johto as a region has. Because a lot of the cool things it has like the Legendary lore and locations often get overshadowed by how much it borrows from its predecessor: Kanto is in control of Johto, not the other way around, to the point where they don't even have basics like an original evil team.
Then there's Alola. We've all seen and heard the ways it fixates on Gen 1: Red and Blue returning, mono-Kanto Alolan forms, the region itself being referenced as where the main character originates from and where Lillie heads to at the end of Sun and Moon, so on and so forth. But do those connections make Alola any less special or unique on its own? To me at least, absolutely not. Unlike Johto, Alola is probably one of the most unique regions design-wise: A mellow, rural formation of tropical islands where even the cities are laid-back and open to the sea and the natural world. As you travel you encounter not one, but two original villain squads, each highly memorable in their own ways. Alolan forms are a wonderful compromise that lets major NPCs and the player use Kanto Pokemon frequently, but in a way that changes them enough to be considered new additions to the region on their own rather than overshadowing them like Johto tended to do. Unlike Gen 2, Alola is in control of Kanto, paying reverence to it while keeping its own presence and identity at the front of players' minds.
I wholeheartedly believe Gen 7 did Kanto fanservice/lore connections better than Gen 2 for the simple reason that at no point does it feel like the fanservice came at the expense of the region's quality or identity, even if giving some love to other generations of Pokemon would have been appreciated.
Gen 2 went much farther with it and was more justified as a direct sequel of sorts to Gen 1, sure. But we've already gone over in other threads how it did this in a way that in many ways hurt Johto itself: Gym leaders neglecting to use Johto Pokemon at all, the Kanto postgame likely being a major contributor to the generally horrendous level curve, and really just the lack of an identity Johto as a region has. Because a lot of the cool things it has like the Legendary lore and locations often get overshadowed by how much it borrows from its predecessor: Kanto is in control of Johto, not the other way around, to the point where they don't even have basics like an original evil team.
Then there's Alola. We've all seen and heard the ways it fixates on Gen 1: Red and Blue returning, mono-Kanto Alolan forms, the region itself being referenced as where the main character originates from and where Lillie heads to at the end of Sun and Moon, so on and so forth. But do those connections make Alola any less special or unique on its own? To me at least, absolutely not. Unlike Johto, Alola is probably one of the most unique regions design-wise: A mellow, rural formation of tropical islands where even the cities are laid-back and open to the sea and the natural world. As you travel you encounter not one, but two original villain squads, each highly memorable in their own ways. Alolan forms are a wonderful compromise that lets major NPCs and the player use Kanto Pokemon frequently, but in a way that changes them enough to be considered new additions to the region on their own rather than overshadowing them like Johto tended to do. Unlike Gen 2, Alola is in control of Kanto, paying reverence to it while keeping its own presence and identity at the front of players' minds.
While this was just a minor part of your post, this brings up an unpopular opinion of my own which I don't think I have ever posted before. Or multiple, depending on how you see it.
It annoys me when people give HG/SS praise for... well, a lot of things since I don't think they deserve most of the praise they get, but this one in particular. "HG/SS kept everything from Crystal." What did they keep exactly? The story parts were mostly minor and Eusine was there, but they decided to force you to go and catch Lugia/Ho-Oh unlike in the originals where it was optional (which I honestly prefered) while Suicune was left for the post-game (but it was at least not a roamer like in G/S, so that's good). Compared to Crystal, the way they did it in HG/SS just felt so unnatural and forced to me. While it has been ages since I last played Crystal, I want to remember that being forced to catch Suicune there felt much more natural than having to go after Ho-Oh or especially Lugia in the remakes which felt completely out of place. As for other things, they just copypasted the Platinum Battle Frontier and put it where Crystal had the Battle Tower, instead of doing something new and innovative like Crystal did. And one thing they actually didn't do was to keep the changes to the Pokémon distribution that Crystal did. Most of which was very good, and necessary. In HG/SS, some Johto Pokémon like Marill and Yanma are still mythological outside of swarms (which only start to happen during the post-game!) while others like Sneasel can't be found until after you have beaten Kanto. Someone tell me if I'm missing something but I can't think of any other notable changes Crystal made to G/S, only minor ones... and even so, I can barely remember any of these either.
And even if we give HG/SS credit for "keeping everything from Crystal"... so what? That doesn't excuse them from being awful games with lackluster content and some of the biggest gameplay flaws in the entire series. I'd much rather take OR/AS which admittedly might not have kept everything from Emerald (but once again, everything apart from the Battle Frontier are just minor things IMO). OR/AS do at least have really great gameplay and a decent amount of content which makes them miles better than HG/SS in my book. The same goes for FR/LG which are fun to play and they improve upon Kanto a lot, unlike HG/SS which didn't improve on Johto in any significant way.
Guess that's my new unpopular opinion for the day.
That's okay, mistakes happen.EDIT: Sorry, I must not be with it today and misreading things left and right
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I think you understood the original intent of my post, but just to make it completely clear: I think the story was better in S/M than in US/UM. I also found the Rotom Dex less annoying in S/M. But as for everything else, I thought US/UM were better than S/M, or at the very least equal to them.
I mostly agree with everything you wrote about the story. On the whole, I felt that US/UM made the story more complicated but not better. They didn't improve the story like Platinum and OR/AS did to their original stories, they made it worse instead. That said, there is one thing about the story I liked better in US/UM: some of the conclusions to what happened with the characters. I definitely prefer Lillie staying in Alola and becoming a trainer instead of traveling to Kanto, Lusamine not needing a cure (even if this meant we never got to see Motherbeast in US/UM, which is a shame) and Gladion going to Kanto and Johto to train and then returning. And even if I didn't think the story in US/UM was as good as the one in S/M, I still think it was fairly good on the whole. Far from the best, but about average or a little above when it comes to stories in Pokémon games.
Unrelated to the above and below, but I totally agree with this.
I didn't explain this in my previous post because I didn't find it relevant enough, but I guess I'll do so now since you asked.
First of all, regarding the story. As said, I don't care that much for the story in Pokémon games anymore. And that is actually because of S/M.
S/M does have a really great story, second best in the series after B/W if you ask me. But what about the rest of the games? There are massive issues. Let's take a look at what S/M had and didn't have.
No National Dex. Worst training spots since HG/SS. Post-game on the same level as X/Y (which is acceptable, but far from great). Worst Pokémon distribution since HG/SS. Unbalanced difficulty/level curve. They don't focus on showcasing the new Pokémon very well, they suffer hard from Johto syndrome. Massive fan pandering to Kanto/Gen 1. SOS mechanics (which I think are an awful feature, but that's subjective). Festival Plaza felt like a step down compared to the PSS, I also prefer Join Avenue as an actual Join Avenue as well as the Entralink for doing missions. It felt like they were gradually trying to remove Mega Evolution by making half of the Mega stones unavailable apart from Events (I like Mega Evolution, so that was a negative for me). No actual minigame. There are other things too, but I think those are the biggest issues I have with S/M.
Does that mean I hate S/M? No, I actually think they are good games despite their flaws. The also have several positive points. Apart from the story, I liked the Alola Pokémon, the Battle Tree, Poké Pelago, Pokémon Refresh and Z-moves, to name some things.
What am I even trying to say here? That for me, it felt like S/M focused so much on the story that they forgot about the rest of the games. Compare this to the two previous first pairs:
X/Y did indeed have a bad story. But they have so much else which I think is more important than story. Epic training spots, a National Dex, the PSS, Battle Maison and Pokémon Amie. They were also way better in terms of the regional dex, Pokémon distribution and focus on the Kalos Pokémon. That's not to say that I think X/Y are flawless, but I definitely prefer them over S/M because they do more right when it comes to the things I think are the most important in Pokémon games. In terms of raw gameplay, I think X/Y are among the best in the series, while S/M are quite a bit lower.
Then there's of course B/W which has the best of both worlds: best story in the series AND great gameplay with great training spots, great post-game, good Pokémon distribution with complete focus on the new Pokémon, fun minigames and great Battle Facilities.
Looking back, I guess I was also a bit disappointed in S/M since I had way too high expectations on them, they weren't the games I wanted them to be. I had too high and wrong expectations on them, which made me a bit disappointed when I first played them.
But now I got carried away, the question was why I prefer US/UM over S/M. I guess the simple reason is that I think US/UM are better when it comes to the things I look for in a Pokémon game. Story is not one of them. Or rather, it is no longer one of them.
Kurona already mentioned some things: Regional Dex expansion and slightly better Pokémon distribution, Move Tutors, Mantine Surfing, better graphics and interfaces (even if the graphical changes are mostly minor).
There are other things too such as the Battle Agency, 5 completely new Pokémon, new Z-moves, Rotom-Powers, so many legendaries to catch and slightly better training spots. You can also get ALL Mega Stones in the games without events. US/UM also feel faster than S/M to me. The difference isn't as big as say, D/P and Platinum, but if you go back and play S/M after playing US/UM, it is definitely noticable. I never cared much for the Rainbow Rocket part though, it could have been handled better (but I consider it as "story", so technically I have already gone over it). I prefered the Looker story in S/M, the negative being that you only have a limited number of UBs to catch there while US/UM gives you an infinte amount. There are also things that already existed in S/M that I liked which were kept in US/UM like the Battle Tree, Poké Pelago and Pokémon Refresh.
Basically, US/UM offered more when it comes things that matter to me in Pokémon games. While many of the improvements are minor, they are enough to make a difference. I guess I'm contradicting myself a bit here since I previously complained about Crystal and Emerald mostly only having minor improvements, so I want to clarify that I do prefer Crystal and Emerald over G/S and R/S, but I am annoyed when people bring up their minor changes for their remakes since I didn't find it to make that much of a difference there.
With all of this said, US/UM could definitely have done more. Having even better training spots and a National Dex would have made a lot more for me. Some things could also have been executed better such as the Ultra Wormhole ride minigame. They should also have gotten rid of the SOS mechanics and not have made the Rotom Dex start babbling endlessly.
On the whole, I prefer US/UM because as I have said (it will be the third time now, I think) they do more when it comes to the things I care the most for in Pokémon games. However, I did ironically enough find US/UM mostly boring to play through when it came to the main game. I think this was because of many different factors. First of all, they were released too soon after S/M, and they were too similar to them. It also happened when I was going through some changes in my life and had less free time to play compared to when I played S/M, which made it feel slower and like I wasn't making progress as quickly as I should have. But if I were given the choice of a new game to play today, I'd definitely pick US/UM over S/M. And I really enjoyed the post-game of US/UM, I'd even say it is the third best in the series on the whole. That definitely made up for the main game feeling boring to me.
I hope I managed to explain how I feel here. On the whole, I really like US/UM in the end. They are my third favorite main series games released for the 3DS, and my fifth favorite games in the series on the whole. Gen 7 is my third favorite generation, and that's mainly because of US/UM, not because of S/M. I'm sorry if this post is messy and unstructured, I didn't really have as much time as I wanted to get all this written and I have probably forgotten some things, but that's how it will have to be. At least for now.
Lastly, on the subject that appeared afterwards regarding some Gen 1 mechanics. I agree about Mimic, I always liked how it worked in Gen 1. A potentially unpopular opinion is that I also liked how Roar and Whirlwind worked in Gen 1, as they had no effect in trainer battles. Status being partly related to type was also cool. I disagree on Hyper Beam and Rage though, and Disable should not be changed from how it works now.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
I keep hearing these complaints that OG SM has terrible encounter tables and like... I don't see the issue? Yeah you got some "common pests" like Raticate-Alola, Gumshoos, Pelipper, etc., but it's no different from Sinnoh frequently making you run into Staravia and Luxio or Hoenn having lots of Wailmers and Tentacools, and you don't see anyone calling their Pokemon variety bad. When I played SM I was able to assemble a varied team I was happy with by the end with a good share of old and new Pokemon. Hard disagree on SM suffering from Johto syndrome too, everywhere you go whether it be originals or Alolan forms you're always seeing someone big use the Pokemon of the region or having them appear in Trials. I'd say it does the job of having a good balance of old and new ncounters at least as good, if not better than say, Platinum or BW2.
Ultimately all this debate over whether OGs or Ultras are better is rather superficial to me. As long as people are giving Gen 7 the respect it deserves in some form, I'm content.
Ultimately all this debate over whether OGs or Ultras are better is rather superficial to me. As long as people are giving Gen 7 the respect it deserves in some form, I'm content.
Honestly I think this post lacks a little perspective.
Johto wasn't trying to pay homage to Kanto, it was just created at a time where there was different game philosophy. JRPG series at that point in time almost without fail occurred in the same timeline with clear links between all of the games that are much greater than say, Hoenn has to Sinnoh or Unova has to Kanto. It would have been stranger for Johto to create an entirely new villainous team than it was to have it continue the Team Rocket plot and, for a second game in a series, creating an entirely new region was in itself pretty ambitious. At that point in time, the standard decision would be to take the first game's location and build upon it, like the third versions are meant to do in Pokémon.
Granted, this is based on predominantly 80s RPG philosophy while Pokémon was released in the 90s but the difference in that time is fairly minor, and Game Freak rarely pioneers game design. It explains all of your criticisms -- making Johto leaders use the "new" Pokémon simply wasn't thought about because there wasn't the same distinguishing between new and old Pokémon as we have now; the level curve was imo a result of being too ambitious with having the 5-6-7 gym split path rather than Kanto's doing; and the two games' plots are directly linked with Johto being a sequel, meaning it's natural that there wouldn't be a new villainous team.
I think the crux of the argument is that Johto has as much of an identity as Kanto does. The only thing that Kanto has going for it is that it came first, and honestly that means rather little. Alola has more identity because better hardware in terms of graphics and storage to include lore and cutscenes etc. but beyond that, I honestly disagree that it has more identity than Kanto or Johto do either. Pokémon's always been based on the idea of each game giving a spotlight to a different region of the Pokémon World, with emphasis on the "Pokémon World". Alola is cool, but so are the rest of the regions, and in regards to game development it's a recent phenomena that newly introduced Pokémon are given a greater spotlight than older Pokémon.
Re: Some of the Gen 7 things we've been discussing: For what it's worth, I prefer the Gen 7 games to the Gen 6 ones (we don't talk about Gen 8...). The Gen 7 games aren't good, hardly, but they appeal to me more and hook me more. They also tend to be harder than the Gen 6 games (the data doesn't lie either). And they don't want me to purge them from their memories and gouge my eyes out, so there's that.
Also, the SM vs. USUM debate: I can hardly say I'm unbiased here. I've been hacking Ultra Moon for around 2 years and have gotten used to it. I understand it more and am more familiar with it than SM. That's not to say USUM weren't shovelware and highly cynical cashgrabs --- they where. It's just when you spend so much time hacking, testing, and playing something, you can develop a slight attachment to the game you're hacking (or at least your hack of it). So yeah, I think prefer USUM, if only for all the time I spent with UM and the extra content. Let's not kid ourselves though, USUM definitely butchered large parts of SM, even if I might not care too much about those parts overly much.
Also, the SM vs. USUM debate: I can hardly say I'm unbiased here. I've been hacking Ultra Moon for around 2 years and have gotten used to it. I understand it more and am more familiar with it than SM. That's not to say USUM weren't shovelware and highly cynical cashgrabs --- they where. It's just when you spend so much time hacking, testing, and playing something, you can develop a slight attachment to the game you're hacking (or at least your hack of it). So yeah, I think prefer USUM, if only for all the time I spent with UM and the extra content. Let's not kid ourselves though, USUM definitely butchered large parts of SM, even if I might not care too much about those parts overly much.
I have actually really enjoyed Sword and Shield. Have they got faults? Absolutely. The story is so bare bones it's practically dust, and there is barely any post game at all. But yet, I've still had a great time with it. Design wise, it's the best generation we've had in a long time IMO, I like most of the move animations, and Dynamax didn't feel nearly as broken as Megas and Z moves. As it's restricted to certain areas, where you opponents will have it too, meant it felt much more natural than the former 2 IMO. In most battles, Megas and Z moves were pretty much an instant win button. It's also lowered the barrier to competetive play for the first time ever, what with Nature Mints, EXP Candies and Bottle Caps. I've actually entered VGC for the first time ever. Haven't scored a win yet, but I'll persist! Going to try to get tickets to watch Worlds, as it's being held in my country this time (Worlds 2014 should've been held in Paris). There are two kinds of truly great games, IMO: ones that you geniunely struggle to find fault with, and ones you still love despite their clear faults.
Gold/Silver
Ultra Sun / Ultra Moon
Sword / Shield
Sun / Moon
Emerald
Black 2 / White 2
Platinum
Black / White
X / Y
Red / Blue
Haven't played Yellow, Crystal, Ruby / Sapphire or Diamond / Pearl.
Ultra Sun / Ultra Moon
Sword / Shield
Sun / Moon
Emerald
Black 2 / White 2
Platinum
Black / White
X / Y
Red / Blue
Haven't played Yellow, Crystal, Ruby / Sapphire or Diamond / Pearl.
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Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
You ranked Emerald twice, just fyi
Other than that hard agree, especially on Dynamaxing being handled super well in-game. They're not my favorite Pokemon games (that honor goes to BW2 and SM) but they're a solid A rank alongside Omega Ruby and Platinum for me
I disagree on Dynamaxing being handled flawlessly. I’ve already mentioned it on another thread, but there’s an aspect of it that I don’t like. Remember why Dynamax got banned? Because it was so unpredictable, and provide so many advantages to the point that you and your opponent are doing 50s/50s until Dynamax are consumed.
But the game never has any of that. Its always reserved for the last Pokemon, making it predictable, and takes away the main appeal of the mechanic- the unpredictability. And even without Dynamaxing, the AI of most trainers are poor- an opponent's Gardevoir used Calm Mind instead of Dazzling Gleam despite me being at low health. I pick up the knockout and win.
As for animations, there are some good ones, like the starter Pokemon cut scene as well as some moves like Pyro Ball, Behemoth Blade, and Behemoth Bash. Max Moves are animated are entertaining as well. Some Pokemon like Mr. Rime, Eiscue, and Polteageist have entertaining animations. On the other hand, we have Pokemon doing shaking then burying underground to use Dig, or Pokemon rotating do use Tail Whip. The biggest offender though happens to be using generic moves against Dynamax Pokemon. They just use generic splash effects. It feels so lame. And Pokemon like Copperajah, Appletun, and Dracovish are just standing idle or are only using a part of their body. Its very meh to me. It feels like GF only gave attention to certain Pokemon or features, because those would be marketed the most.
I'm sadly going to have to agree with Codraroll here that Sword and Shield are my least favorite Pokemon games I have played, as least in terms of single player. Sword and Shield feels like you are running from corridor to corridor-every route and dungeon is so linear that they are over within 5 minutes. There's not much reason to backtrack to any location from my experience. What's worse, people offering to take you to places even if they are within walking distance as well, not to mention free healing items.
The games are full of technical problems and poor design choices. The graphics look like they belong from a Nintendo 64 game, with the wild area looking a complete mess. Link Codes instead of a friend list for trades? You won't certainly matched with wrong person! ( Spoiler! I got mismatched 4 times once when doing a online trade ). Why can't I participate in a raid battle while a surprise trade is going on? Locking sound settings behind an item? What's up with that? Limiting Pokemon you can capture with the Wild area? What's the point of exploring then? Milcrey, Galarian Farfech'd and Galarian Yamask have the most obscure evolution methods that practically scream the internet. The Bike can only speed up
Speaking of the Wild Area, the place is a mess. Not only is it awful to look at, its full of technical problems- the game lags, it freezes, and when you select a raid, you noticeably have to wait a few seconds longer for the raid screen to show up when you play online. And playing online is the most optimal way, since the raids become near impossible thanks to terrible AI. These problems happen so frequently that its a nuisance and really hurts the experience.
Story wise, there's little to like. Its 90% the Gym challenge, with the emphasis on you and Hop. You get two other rivals but they disappear: Bede is taken under Opal's Wing, and vanishes until he disrupts the finals for no reason. As for Marnie, I forgot she existed until the 7th gym. Kind of shame, because they had both interesting backgrounds. A lot of characters in SwSh can be said about this. The gym leaders have interesting bios, but its never put to use. Melony and Gordie's relationship for example. They have a bitter relationship- but that's never seen in game. As for the Villains, actually villian is an overstatement for these teams. Team Yell only causes trouble by being nuisance, while Macros Cosmos really has good intentions, with Rose wanting to stop the energy crisis in a 1000 years, and Leon's desire to do a champion match makes it seem Leon is the bad guy. Anyway, the whole Eternatus plot suddenly happens, without much build up. Its quite clear they were trying to go for an Aether and Skull set up, but it doesn't work because the notion random, like Hop mentions that Leon is late for dinner, which is a reason to be concerned, and he's miraculously right. Not to mention the fights with Oleana and are pointless because Leon and Rose are simply chatting. The only characters that actually go through any change are Hop and Sonia, who both discover their true callings in their
That being the said, I do agree that nature mints and experience candy make the grinding so much easier. I've managed to make competitive teams within a day, including Pokemon caught via raids. They even give out free BP from participating in seasons as well as mystery gift. If it was not for dexit and Dynamaxing this would be the best games for cartridge battling.
Multiplayer is the only thing keeping me from continuing SwSh. But of you are looking for a single player experience, please don't waste your time in SwSh. Play Fire Emblem: 3 Houses, DragonQuest 11S, AI: The Somnium Files, or Legend of Zelda. They all have more memorable characters, programming, graphics, and difficulty compared to SwSh and I would recommend them 100% over SwSh. If you are looking for Pokemon games, BW have a better story, while DP and so much more to explore.
Regarding HGSS, I played the virtual console version of Silver, I feel like HGSS fixed a lot of problems. For example, fire stone could not be obtained until post game, which means Vulpix can't evolve into Ninetales until the post game. The gym leaders are noticeably tougher, with notably Janine having her team raised from the 30s to the 50s. I don't see how Lugia and Ho-oh encounters are worse than every other forced encounter in the other series as well. As for the Battle Frontier, they probably added for the sake of compatibility, plus having 5 facilities is better than one. I know a lot of people complain about a level curve, but I never found this an issue except when it came to Red. And I love being able to go to back to Kanto and challenge the gym leaders in any order you'd like. That's something I loved that future games kept, but no. The only complaints I've had is that level scaling is not provided, like Pidgey on Route 1 being level 2, despite it being post game, it makes certain pokemon like Kangaskhan unusable. Overall HGSS is on my top 4 favorite Pokemon games, the other being Platinum, BW, and BW2.
As for USM vs SM, I honestly prefer USM. The new additions like 100 + Pokemon, Alola Photo Club, Improved SOS mechanics, etc. are more enjoyable than SM's story. That being said, the reason I say that I dislike USM is I feel the game should have just been DLC. While USM/SM do have their faults like low encounter rates for the new Pokemon and too much Kanto Pandering. I disagree saying that they are completely corridors. They are still locations like 10 Karat Hill, Caves in Melemele, Poni Wilds and Terminus, Aether and Skull headquarters, and Victory Road in USM that do genuinely feel like areas you can explore and have enough content to explore. I also like how they indeed make the Totem fights challenging as well- a good spike in difficulty. Overall, while Gen 7 has it flaws, I think they are good games at heart and I think are so much better than XY and SwSh.
I think you are a little hard with S&S but I will only answer about dynamax.
I agree with Yungs Drampa and ChrystalFachion about how dynamax was well-handled in the game, better than z-moves and mega-evolutions in any case, despite the fact that it is a broken mechanic in competitive. I think criticizing the predictability is unfair because the goal is to put forward the star of your team and the one of the gym leader. It was exactly the same with Z-moves during in USUM where you knew in advance that it will be on the last pokemon of the team which handled the gem and I haven't really seen someone complain about that. The unpredictability is important only when you focus on the competitive aspect, let it be dynamax or z-moves. In game the mechanic has just to be enjoyable and I think they did a great job in doing that.
1) Dynamax gives you the choice to make any pokemon the star of your team during an important battle.
It's something I dislike a lot about Mega-Evolutions where the poll of mons available for mega-evolution is low. Realistically, only your Kanto starter or Lucario in X&Y or your starter and Lati@s in ORAS could mega-evolve before the end of game if you didn't catch specific mons for this purpose. In the same kind of idea, when you start the game for the first time, you don't necessary know which are the mons which are able to mega-evolve so except if you catch the right stone, you have no idea if your pokemon is able to mega-evolve. In X&Y and ORAS, if you want to enjoy fully the mega-evolution mechanic, you have to restrict your team in catching mons you don't necessary want to take in your adventure team just for the mega-evolution and it's something which hasn't been a good experience for me. The fact that the game is forced to give you mons which are able to mega-evolve to enjoy the mechanic is symptomatic of how poorly the mechanic is handled in these games.
On the contrary, Dynamax allows you to make any pokemon of your team during the gym leader fight the star of the battle. You don't need to restrict your team to enjoy the mechanic or just always dynamaxing the same mons.
2) Dynamax is available early game
Again something against Mega-Evolution but this mechanic is missing for most of the game. You have to get a special mon at its last stage of evolution before being able to mega-evolve which is an important restriction. Before Lucario, you have basically never seen any mega-evolution and you can fight it only after the third gym leader, same with Latios in ORAS around the 5th gym leader. You discover the mechanic of the generation around the middle of the game which is disappointing considering it is supposed to be the novelty of the generation 6. The end of the game is not incredible either in the way they handle mega-evolutions to justify so much the void during the first part of the game.
3) Dynamax is only available in important battles
This has two advantages. The first thing is it makes the battles against gym leaders more important symbolically because you and your opponent have the right to use a broken mechanic which makes one of your mon the star of your team. Due to Dynamax and the atmosphere, you don't feel to be in a casual battle against a random opponent. The second thing is obviously it doesn't make the battles against regular trainers broken in the sense where you just have to click your z-move to destroy them.
Z-moves are usable whenever and the problem about that is it doesn't make only the regular trainers worse than they already are but it also makes Kahunas and Trial Captains look like regular trainers. These battles don't have something for them, they are just battles against stronger opponents than usual but without anything special considering even for the z-move aspect, a regular trainer by road already faces you with a z-move. These battles, like the kahunas and captains, are pretty forgettable and I couldn't even tell you today on which mon the z-move was because these battles were expeditious without any sensation.
Considering dynamax, i can tell you by heart that the star mon of every gym leader of SS is Eldegoss, drednaw, centikrosch, machamp, alcremie, coalossal and duralugon because I remember the animations and the fights in themselves. We played far more to SM and USUL than SS due to lack of time so the influence of SM should have been normally stronger than SS in our memories such as Kanto and Hoenn Gym leaders are less forgettable than any other. It's not the case here so there was a real issue concerning how captains and kahuanas battles handled z-moves.
For these reasons, I think Dynamax is better handled than Mega-Evolutions and Z-moves in their respective generations, obviously competitive aspects aside.
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I disagree with you here. I thought both S/M and US/UM had pretty bad distribution. IMO it was far from the greatness of (Platinum) Sinnoh, Unova, Kalos or the Hoenn land routes (I agree that the Hoenn water routes are really bad). The Pokémon you mentioned and a few others are so common and on practically every route, while several other Pokémon (most notably several Alola Pokémon) are rare and/or not found on as many routes/areas. That said, it isn't all bad since as you said, the new Pokémon do get a chance to shine when it comes to important trainers and Totem battles. From what I remember, every single Totem or "ace" Pokémon for the important trainers are an Alola Pokémon, or at the very least an Alola form. So I'd say Alola is a bit better than Johto when it comes to Johto syndrome, but far from good. But that's just my opinion, if you disagree and wasn't as bothered by it as I was, then that's cool.
Guess I should also add something I forgot yesterday. If someone prefers S/M over US/UM because of the story (or for any other reason), then I respect their opinion even if I don't agree with them. I can definitely understand and accept that someone would prefer S/M over US/UM because of the story, or for any other reason. I just personally prefer US/UM since I found them to have better overall gameplay and more content.
Then there's S/S and Dynamax, which was brought up. To start with, S/S. I said this in the S/S thread at an earlier point, but I'll say it here too: I really enjoyed Sword despite all of its issues. I think my decision to go into the game 90% unspoiled really made me enjoy it more. Compare this to S/M which I went into 90% spoiled, I didn't get anywhere near as many surprises when I played through them. And as said, I had way too high and wrong expectations on S/M while I had lower and more correct expectations for S/S, which might also have allowed meto enjoy Sword more. If I end up getting any more Pokémon games after Sword, I'll probably try to go into them unspoiled too. At least for first pairs, not sure about remakes since they probably won't have a lot of new stuff anyway, and not sure about potential third versions/alternate versions/sequels either, though I'm not sure if we'll ever see any more of those. On the whole, S/S aren't my favorite games in the series or even in my top 5, but I really enjoyed Sword despite its issues, and I'm looking forward to the DLC.
As for Dynamax, I thought it was mostly well handled in the games. Not perfect, but well enough. However, I found Gigantamax to be really terribly handled. Opposing trainers just start using it all of a sudden without explaining what is or how it differs from Dynamax, the game doesn't explain how to get it yourself either, forcing you to find out on your own without any real hints. It is limited to certain Pokémon which have to be caught in Max Raid dens or obtained through Event/Gifts. It isn't all that different from regular Dynamax either, just a different appearance and they get a special Max Move. And as for the Pokémon species that get it, the vast majority are from Gen 1 or Gen 8, the only other ones are Garbodor and Melmetal. I think those are very odd choices since one is a generally "unloved" Pokémon while the other is a poorly handled Mythical, though Gigantamax Melmetal isn't officially released yet as far as I know. So yeah, I thought Dynamax was well handled but not perfectly while Gigantamax was handled really terribly.
Maybe I am, but I had high expectations for these games. Remember we lost over half of the Pokemon for "better and new animations", as well as "battle balance"? Well, the former turned out to be a lie, and the fact that majority of Smogon metagames have banned it probably speaks volumes on its balance, at least for the singles. Not to mention all the technical errors and design choices I mentioned in the previous post. Sword and Shield really lacks any ambition that other games like 3 Houses or AI: The Somnium Files have- if anything its less. The most powerful console in history for Pokemon, and it can't support all the forms despite the 3DS games having every variation up to that point? Honestly, at this point, based on the expansion pass and the reception of Pokemon Home, I'm fully convinced that Dexit is a marketing plot created by TPC in order to make money off every Pokemon having a cult following.
But enough complaining about SwSh. I really get annoyed how people always act as if Diamond and Pearl having only two fire types is the end of the world and is total unplayable because of that. Diamond and Pearl were not the first game to have that problem. In Red and Blue, we only had one line of each Ghost and Dragon types, which were the Gengar and Dragonite lines. Not to mention that both had roadblocks: Gengar required trading while Dragonite had high level requirements, making them very difficult to use. Even Gen 2, only one of those new Pokemon of those types were introduced: Misdreavus and Kingdra, which also had roadblocks; Misdreavus could be only post game, while Kingdra required trading holding a DragonScale.
In FRLG, none of the problems were fixed. Kingdra and Misdreavus were post game, while Magnemite and Magneton were the only Steel types. Dark was the worst though, since there were none prior to post game. If they had let Scyther, Onix, and Eevee evolve into their Gen 2 evolutions, we could have had more variety in these types. HGSS also suffered from the same problem as well: Mismagius was only obtainable in the post game.
RSE also suffer a similar problem: There was only 3 fully evolved Ice Types: Walrein, Regice and Glalie.
The main idea here is that the dislike of lack of fire types in DP is overdone, and the other games that have similar problems never get enough criticism for it. Fortunately, most games after Gen 4 seem to be ensuring that the fire type fiasco is not going to happen again, since in an interview confirmed that they changed Stunfisk's type to Ground Electric so there would be a balance of types.
The problem, I think, is that Fire is much less of a "niche" type than Ghost and Dragon. It's one of the starter triangle types, how much more basic can it get? But if you didn't pick the Fire starter in DP, you didn't have any other good options for that type, while Grass and Water alternatives to the starters were thrown at you around every turn of the path. The lack of Fire-types is also reflected in an Elite Four member whose team is mostly not-Fire types, which only serves to draw attention to the problem.
The examples you list are also agreeable, although they are all from the earliest games in the series, so one would think GF would know better when they got all the way to Gen IV. It's not like there weren't scores of Fire-types to pick from by that point, even if Gen IV didn't bring any new ones. There were 11 non-legendary Fire-type lines (plus Castform-Fire and Flareon) in Generations I-III, yet only one of them made it to DP's regional dex. The problem was mostly in the design choice of leaving out all the evolution lines of a very notable typing, as one couldn't attribute it to a lack of Pokémon with the typing at the time.
I think the word you are looking for is rare. Fire types have been actually rarer than you might look at first glance. As of Gen 4, there were only 12 fully evolved Fire type starters that are not legendary, 3 of which were starters, to this day, Fire is the 7th most common type to this day, while water and grass are #1 and #3 respectively, which is a big difference. This and the fact, that Sinnoh is in the North, a much colder place, probably gave the decision for less fire types.
Not that I think it’s a good decision, but I still FRLG were worse because we only had one Steel type line and 0 Dark types, which basically meant Psychic was just as overpowered as in the original games. You could play DP with either Ice, Grass, Bug, or Steel and you wouldn’t have nearly as many advantages as Psychic in FRLG.
EDIT: Also noticed that the Garchomp line is the only Dragon type line in the original Sinnoh Dex, excluding Dialga and Palkia.
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