Unpopular opinions

Since we're talking about Pokemon villains, I want to bring up this romhack: Pokemon Prism. It pretty much brings back the solid storytelling from GSC, but regarding the villains I was very disappointed. In Pokemon Brown, its prequel, they were teasing this Green Ranger dude as a major threat and in Prism he sabotages the player and you have to face the 5 Power Ranger expies throughout the journey. They were also linked to the game's theme of traditionalism vs modernism, extremists villains to protect Naijo's traditions (except Green). All good...

Only to reveal during the game's "climax" that they were working under a group of nameless scientists with generic "for science!" motivations. You defeat the Pallet Patrols, they just....leave, and then you take out the remaining scientists. That's it. Honestly I expected more.
 
Besom said:
I don't understand what this is trying to prove TBH. Everyone who has posted about Team Rocket is talking about their actions, not what level their Pokémon are in the games most notorious for horrible level scaling.

It's perfectly fine to prefer smaller-scale plots involving villains like Team Rocket over more elaborate plots with Aether and Skull. Ever since Gen 3, each game makes the villain team(s) more powerful than the last (can't speak for Gen 8) and it's refreshing to play Gen 1 or 2 because of how simple Team Rocket is.
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Nah, Dramps is right. G1 Rocket was great. Giovanni may be "grounded" (heh) but he's still threatening as fuck. He's a romantic depiction of a mob boss: well-dressed, conducts his "business" with dignity, and will pop you if you don't comply with what he's "asking" of you. G2 Rocket is just pathetic. They're at a similar crime level as Team Skull, but while Skull is a group of wacky punks who want the legitimacy they feel society won't give them, G2 Rocket is a group of inept criminals who are past their prime and desperately trying to stay relevant. It also doesn't help that while Skull is led by the charismatic Guzma, G2 Rocket is led by... some guy I guess.
 
I mean, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that G2 Team Rocket is a struggling operation trying to claw its way back towards dominance without the charismatic leader who was so key to its success. It makes sense from a gameplay perspective, because a weakened evil team fits better with the 16-badge level curve, and it gives the box legend story more room to be the ultimate focus.

I’d also disagree with them being inept. They basically have the same operational arc as G1 Team Rocket, at least when it comes to their major appearances:

-taking something valuable from a cave (G1 Rocket doesn’t even seem to be committing a crime in Mt. Moon, aren’t they just looking for fossils?)
-some kind of illegal activity conducted in a secret underground base (running a casino with smuggled Pokémon vs using a radio signal to forcibly evolve Pokémon, to sell? I admit the Lake of Rage stuff’s a little weak)
-taking over a major building with hostages

Their rosters are pretty bad obviously, but that’s true of most evil teams and their leaders.

EDIT: to be clear, I like the straightforwardness of Rocket G1 and overall I still think it’s much more strongly characterised than G2
 
DrPumpkinz said:
Nah, Dramps is right. G1 Rocket was great. Giovanni may be "grounded" (heh) but he's still threatening as fuck. He's a romantic depiction of a mob boss: well-dressed, conducts his "business" with dignity, and will pop you if you don't comply with what he's "asking" of you. G2 Rocket is just pathetic. They're at a similar crime level as Team Skull, but while Skull is a group of wacky punks who want the legitimacy they feel society won't give them, G2 Rocket is a group of inept criminals who are past their prime and desperately trying to stay relevant. It also doesn't help that while Skull is led by the charismatic Guzma, G2 Rocket is led by... some guy I guess.
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While I do love Gen 1 (favorite gen), I definitely prefer Gen 2 Rocket. They have a much clearer goal in Gen 2, which is trying to contact Giovanni. What you said about G2 Rocket being "past their prime" and "pathetic" is true, but it's likely intentional. Their leader left and they're trying to reform, so of course they won't be as strong in Gen 2 as they were in Gen 1.
 
Y'know, I'm inclined to agree somewhat. I really like the whole concept of "once powerful evil team now in ruins and scrambling for survival".

But alas, even the most excellent concepts mean dirt without proper execution. And the major issue with Gen 2 Team Rocket is that the aforementioned idea really doesn't go anywhere or play into anything beyond the most superficial level. None of the executives seem to really acknowledge how much the organization is past their prime or even that they are affected by it, instead opting for typical overblown villain speeches about their superiority. This could've worked if they intentionally built contrast between these admins, Ariana for instance could continue to do these borderline delusional rants while someone like Petrel could be far more mopey and cynical, realizing that Rocket is stalling out the inevitable and just kinda shrugging his shoulders at all the crap going on. Add in stuff like Lance himself intervening and it makes it seem like you're supposed to take them more seriously than they deserve.

Y'know, the more I think about, the more I realize that in many ways, Team Skull is what Gen 2 Rocket should've been. From the beginning it's made crystal clear that the population of Alola seems them as a joke, with even people like the local berry farmer laughing off their threats. At the same time it's hinted via stuff like Guzma's house and some of the grunts' dialogue that there's a dark, deeply personal underbelly to their actions. All this culminates at Po Town where the moment you enter, before you interact with anyone or anything in there, it's laid bare via the music and atmosphere just how utterly hopeless their situation is, and it only gets worse when you walk around and stumble upon things like their sorry excuse for a Pokemon Center. Team Rocket absolutely needed a Po Town moment, something to make it sink in how far they've fallen from their RBY-era prime. Suppose when you and Lance find the secret Rocket hideout and go in instead of a generic, nice-looking evil team lair you instead find an absolute pigsty of a bunker with flickering lights, cracked walls and trash scattered all over the place. Some grunts simply run from the infiltrating pair, others slack off, others merely wallow in sorrow, futilely wishing for the good old days. At a certain point, perhaps a little over halfway through Lance decides he's seen enough and leaves the player to clean things up on their own because it's clear they don't need his help.
 
Consider the following:
-Villain Teams kind of bog down the over all experience of pokemon games, I wanna go on a journey not have to deal with Team Meanies and their plan to idk fart in my general direction.
-The only good villain team is Team Aqua and Team Magma because really it's just two exes who got so mad at each other over whether or not the land or sea was better that they revived an ancient god-like creature to shut the other one up and prove that they're right. I know I'm reading a lot into this but it's how I see it and I refuse to unsee it.
-If the games really need an antagonistic force just make it your rival. Sure jerk rivals are old news but I'm tired of rivals who you wipe the floor with over and over again.
-Gen 2 Rocket is really only good because you meet them three times throughout the main story and their hideouts aren't super complex magical movement tile adventures. They don't take long to beat, which actually helps them be pathetic losers who have no sense of direction aside from calling daddy giovanni for help, even though he abandoned these kids like how he abandoned his son.
-I think the best trade off the series can make is the removal of villainous teams for a lengthy post game. A post game with some meat on its bones, not like the shriveled up flaccid post game of XY.
 
Team Rocket: While the story is minimal, Team Rocket has a clear presence in Kanto. Even with their simplicity, which I'd even say it works for them, I like the ongoing and consistent theme of power and commerce: these guys invade Mt Moon in search of rare fossils to sell and Pokemon Tower to steal Cobone skulls, own a Game Corner to make themselves rich, invade Silph Co in order to reach an agreement with its president and last but not least, Giovanni is a Gym Leader, a position of authority in Kanto. While not my favorite group, I agree that there's more to them than just nostalgia.

Team Rocket (Gen 2): We pretty much agree that TR is a shadow of its former self at this point, even people in Johto barely talk about the Rockets, which makes sense since Giovanni abandoned them and the acts they commit in Johto aren't even too much of a threat. Heck, their final act is a desperate attempt to bring back the boss. This is what defines this era of Team Rocket to me: despair. The Adventures HGSS arc encapsulates this perfectly by the end, while I don't feel sorry for the admins they just look so delusional and pathetic when begging for Arceus to give them Giovanni that I can't help pity them. Here they literally summon 4 gods for nothing...


018.jpg

Edit: This is what the HGSS game should have strived for imo. Not necessarily a new plot involving big legends but give them a bit more depth than just want Giovanni back. ORAS did this with Team Aqua and Magma, and even that is the era where the devs arguably became "less ambitious". And they DID give more depth to Silver in HGSS.....locked behind a limited time event, but they did it anyways.
 
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Yung Dramps said:
Y'know, I'm inclined to agree somewhat. I really like the whole concept of "once powerful evil team now in ruins and scrambling for survival".

But alas, even the most excellent concepts mean dirt without proper execution. And the major issue with Gen 2 Team Rocket is that the aforementioned idea really doesn't go anywhere or play into anything beyond the most superficial level. None of the executives seem to really acknowledge how much the organization is past their prime or even that they are affected by it, instead opting for typical overblown villain speeches about their superiority. This could've worked if they intentionally built contrast between these admins, Ariana for instance could continue to do these borderline delusional rants while someone like Petrel could be far more mopey and cynical, realizing that Rocket is stalling out the inevitable and just kinda shrugging his shoulders at all the crap going on. Add in stuff like Lance himself intervening and it makes it seem like you're supposed to take them more seriously than they deserve.

Y'know, the more I think about, the more I realize that in many ways, Team Skull is what Gen 2 Rocket should've been. From the beginning it's made crystal clear that the population of Alola seems them as a joke, with even people like the local berry farmer laughing off their threats. At the same time it's hinted via stuff like Guzma's house and some of the grunts' dialogue that there's a dark, deeply personal underbelly to their actions. All this culminates at Po Town where the moment you enter, before you interact with anyone or anything in there, it's laid bare via the music and atmosphere just how utterly hopeless their situation is, and it only gets worse when you walk around and stumble upon things like their sorry excuse for a Pokemon Center. Team Rocket absolutely needed a Po Town moment, something to make it sink in how far they've fallen from their RBY-era prime. Suppose when you and Lance find the secret Rocket hideout and go in instead of a generic, nice-looking evil team lair you instead find an absolute pigsty of a bunker with flickering lights, cracked walls and trash scattered all over the place. Some grunts simply run from the infiltrating pair, others slack off, others merely wallow in sorrow, futilely wishing for the good old days. At a certain point, perhaps a little over halfway through Lance decides he's seen enough and leaves the player to clean things up on their own because it's clear they don't need his help.
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I agree with parts of this. IMO Team Rocket should have been taken more seriously rather than less. They're more "organized crime" (for lack of a better term) than just a group of misfits like Team Skull.

FRLG has sort-of a "Po Town" moment with Team Rocket in the Sevii Island base. If I remember correctly, the male and female grunts are implied to be the admins from GSC, and they make mentions of trying to reform. FRLG has a lot of homages to the Gen 2 games in the Sevii Islands, which is something I don't see talked about often.
 
PokePoindexter said:
Naganadel is best Gen 7 Dragon. FITE ME!
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It's definitely a dragon that's not afraid of Fairy-types.

Zowayix said:
No way to prove this now, but I was originally going to shitpost something about the Gen 2 background plushies secretly being for "Pokemon Quest 2" hypothetically adding blocky pixellated Johto 'mons to the Kanto-exclusive Quest. Then we got something very entirely different....
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Speaking of which, can we stop assuming ANY background decorations they have are a hint to something? They're just random Pokemon merch, probably chosen on the whims of either who's office is being filmed in or whoever decorated that room in the building. Maybe some choices go into the latter but for the former if a PC employee loves Gen II of course they're decorating their office space with Gen II merch and aren't going to change things around to vaguely hint at an upcoming feature which they're going to talk about soon anyway.

Not to say it isn't fun to see what decorations they have up behind them. Like I spent maybe half an hour figuring out what's the story behind the black Pikachu plush was but I didn't do it because I thought it was hinting towards something, I just wanted to know when they made a black Pikachu plush.

Codraroll said:
I think the appropriate time for a DP remake is sadly behind us. The games were out in 2006/2007; kids who grew up with them are way outside the target demographic for Pokémon already.
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You know what, here's an idea: make the next Let's Go games based on Sinnoh. The Let's Go games don't need to follow chronological order, if GF wants to continue doing the Let's Go games but also feel Sinnoh remakes wouldn't match the current core series design philosophies why not kill two bird with one stone. Plus unlike Johto where I'm struggling to think which Pokemon would make for a good Starter, I can think of several for Sinnoh though the two that jump out to me are Riolu and Rotom (though they could probably think of other combinations, though I think Riolu is a surefire pick... no, I don't think Bidoof would be in the running).

Revenge of Depressed Gay said:
IDK if I said this before but Pokemon games should abandon the "deep" and "complex" villain stories and motivations. It worked once with gen 5, and then every time they try to pull that shit again it falls flat. XY "Oh I hate ugly things so I must destroy all pokemon." SM "My husband disappeared and now I'm obsessed with a space jellyfish, whilst driving my family away from em because I'm an abusive PoS" SS "I GOTTA SOLVE THIS ENERGY CRISIS THAT'LL HAPPEN IN A CENTURY RIGHT NOW AND INTERRUPT EVERYTHING BECAUSE I CAN LITERALLY NOT WAIT A DAY FOR THE CHAMPION TO HELP ME!"

Honestly I think we should remove villains all together and have a game that focuses more on the journey of becoming a pokemon master, while fleshing out the gym leaders and E4 more. Namely because while gamefreak can make some decent to good characters, their overall narrative skills aren't really that good.
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I wouldn't mind a game where once the big problem isn't a villain team but rather something else like a big disaster or social injustice is happening and all non-Pokemon League characters we meet are trying to prevent/solve the issue.

I do think the core series games does need a secondary thing aside from the Pokemon League storyline cause, honestly, Sword & Shield did that and looked how it turned out. Remember, all the stuff with Rose came out of nowhere during the Champion Cup, up till then it was just the player competing in the Pokemon League with minor nuisances here and there. And the reason for this is, okay, we're the best and strongest Pokemon trainer... so what? What do we use our strength for aside competitive battling? That's where the secondary story comes in, there's usually this big threat happening that the player has observed is gotten involved with and they're using their skills they'll use to become Champion to save the day.

The villain team is now more a crutch GF uses as an easy "here are the bad guys", though even in recent games GF has sort of gotten tired of that and has had the villain teams been fake outs... only to then replace them with another villain team.

Tiksi said:
Speaking of villains and stories: I like Lysandre, more than any other main villain. (Also, all of the below is opinion. Yes I know the thread name.)
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Main problem with Lysandre isn't with him but that he's the boss of Team Flare. Lysandre is super serious and you can see where his thinking comes from even if its obvious he sort of went down a rabbit hole of insanity and despair but that only makes his character more tragic. Then you got Team Flare who are doofuses wearing obnoxious red-orange business suits who make wacky poses and brag how they're the better than you without really explaining why. While there is a connection it's rather weak and I have a hard time believing that if Lysandre made a villain team it would be like Team Flare, similarly I have a hard time imagining a leader of Team Flare being even remotely serious. It's a disconnect that sadly shines poorly on Lysandre's character as we're supposed to believe Team Flare are the people that Lysandre believes to live on in his new beautiful world.

pokemon4eva said:
Since we're talking about Pokemon villains, I want to bring up this romhack: Pokemon Prism. It pretty much brings back the solid storytelling from GSC, but regarding the villains I was very disappointed. In Pokemon Brown, its prequel, they were teasing this Green Ranger dude as a major threat and in Prism he sabotages the player and you have to face the 5 Power Ranger expies throughout the journey. They were also linked to the game's theme of traditionalism vs modernism, extremists villains to protect Naijo's traditions (except Green). All good...

Only to reveal during the game's "climax" that they were working under a group of nameless scientists with generic "for science!" motivations. You defeat the Pallet Patrols, they just....leave, and then you take out the remaining scientists. That's it. Honestly I expected more.
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Unfortunately that tends to happen with romhacks. The ones making it probably had bigger plans or at least had great ideas... but then they discover it would take a lot of time or the technology is limited in what they want to do.

Similarly happens with romhacks that decides it wants to bring in old villain teams back and have them team-up. Even at its best it feels like fanfiction.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
I guess, just I have a problem seeing what they did with Pikachu & Eevee to doing it with Togepi. Don't know why, but to me it would feel kinda forced?
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I agree that it'd be a little weird with Togepi specifically, but there are a few other options imo: Phanpy, Teddiursa, Aipom, Snubbull, Wooper, Murkrow, Mareep, and Sentret all seem like they could be packed with enough personality to be the partner Pokémon in a Let's Go! game. My preference would likely be Phanpy and Teddiursa since they're already parallels by being version exclusives in Johto, and I like the idea of establishing a bipedal-quadrupedal trend with this series. Wooper and Mareep would work in the same way (not version exclusives but found on the same route originally, and still bipedal-quadrupedal).

With that said, no more Let's Go! please. I skipped them when they came out and so only found out from a friend a couple weeks ago that at certain points they force you to catch an arbitrary number of different Pokémon before you're allowed to actually progress through the game further. That's awful game design, removing the player's ability to actually have an individual play style and customise their own adventure. If they just didn't put arbitrary progress checks and didn't delete content like items and abilities from the games, Let's Go! would be great titles with their polish and worldbuilding. But those design choices are dealbreakers.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
You know what, here's an idea: make the next Let's Go games based on Sinnoh. The Let's Go games don't need to follow chronological order, if GF wants to continue doing the Let's Go games but also feel Sinnoh remakes wouldn't match the current core series design philosophies why not kill two bird with one stone. Plus unlike Johto where I'm struggling to think which Pokemon would make for a good Starter, I can think of several for Sinnoh though the two that jump out to me are Riolu and Rotom (though they could probably think of other combinations, though I think Riolu is a surefire pick... no, I don't think Bidoof would be in the running).
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I would choose Buneary and Riolu. This would be the best solution since it would satisfy GF promise that Let's Go would be a thing going forward and would be a DPP remake but maybe my opinion on these matters shouldn't be heard as I don't care for Let's Go nor DPP remake.


Pikachu315111 said:
I wouldn't mind a game where once the big problem isn't a villain team but rather something else like a big disaster or social injustice is happening and all non-Pokemon League characters we meet are trying to prevent/solve the issue...
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A plot whose only concern is to be the league champion woud be interesting for only one generation. It wasn't compelling in the anime, it would be more boring in the games. The problem isn't with the idea of a bigger plot, it's with the execution.


Pikachu315111 said:
Lysandre
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Again, a okay/ great idea with a poor implemetation. The contrast between a serious leader and the doofuses members of team flare could be used to show how out of touch with reality Lysandre really was, that he chose these idiots and expected them to make a better world instead of them just messing everything up could be done interestingly.
 
Blue glass said:
Again, a okay/ great idea with a poor implemetation. The contrast between a serious leader and the doofuses members of team flare could be used to show how out of touch with reality Lysandre really was, that he chose these idiots and expected them to make a better world instead of them just messing everything up could be done interestingly.
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They actually did this with Cyrus in Platinum, he is a completely different entity compared to his goofier mooks. And I quote:

"...So you've come. You heard my speech, I take it. Snicker... A big lie, of course. It's true, insofar as my intention is to create a new world. But that world isn't for the likes of Team Galactic. I seek an entirely new world solely for myself. If not, it could never be the complete and perfect world. You've seen my minions of Team Galactic. You yourself must know that they are uniformly useless and incomplete."
 
sb879 said:
I think you're conflating FRLG with Let's Go. The only dex roadblock in FRLG is the postgame 60 one (which still sucks).
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I think some of them were optional, but FRLG *definitely* had some mandatory blocks. I thought the 50 one was main path, but maybe not -- I'm pretty much certain the 10 Pokemon one functionally is, though, unless you feel like going through Mt Moon completely blind.
 
Rarycaris said:
I think some of them were optional, but FRLG *definitely* had some mandatory blocks. I thought the 50 one was main path, but maybe not -- I'm pretty much certain the 10 Pokemon one functionally is, though, unless you feel like going through Mt Moon completely blind.
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It still sucks but you need 10 mons for flash in RBY so it's a case of the remakes being true to the original games.
 
Rarycaris said:
I think some of them were optional, but FRLG *definitely* had some mandatory blocks. I thought the 50 one was main path, but maybe not -- I'm pretty much certain the 10 Pokemon one functionally is, though, unless you feel like going through Mt Moon completely blind.
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Mt. Moon doesn't require Flash. It's Rock Tunnel where you need it. There are no requirements you have to meet to continue during the main game, though. There are only requirements you have to meet to get items (the Flash HM being one of them), the most annoying of which being 50 registered 'mons for the Exp. Share.
 
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