More common is potentially fine, but I wouldn't like it to be common in general. We already have it that most mons can freely sacrifice one of their six stats, so I'd rather not remove the tradeoff for focusing on defenses or Speed. Instead, I'd lean towards something like a rebalanced Electro Ball that scales with both the primary attacking stat and another stat.
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
I think what he meant isn't dynamic moves like Necrozma's or G-Bro, but actually standard "uses Defense instead of attack" calcs like Body Press
I think Ironmage understood that! Their response - to me - seemed to be that doing this would remove the drawback that usually comes with investing non-attacking stats. Instead of there being a "tradeoff" - "do I invest in Defense to take hits better or in Attack to hit harder?" - you can now invest in one stat to do both at once. They were proposing an Electro Ball-esque move that incorporates two stats at once as an alternative solution, and one that they would like more, not as the way they interpreted Imperial Magala's post.
Currently, EVs and natures are set up so that a Pokémon has to make choices in the "build triangle" of power, bulk and speed - there's no way to max out all three. But compressing power and bulk into one stat or power and speed into one stat means you aren't ever giving up one for the sake of the other.
They weren't opposed to the idea happening a few more times, of course - this was just their reservation with it being common.
Personally, I think it would still be quite interesting! I'm already a big fan of mixed attackers that have key moves on both sides and can't afford to focus on just one - I think it'd be neat if you had a Pokémon that could invest in just Speed for its main STAB but still needed Attack for its coverage, for example (especially if it also had a physical STAB that would outclass its Speed-based one, but only if it had significant investment in Attack as well). It actually creates more incentive for tradeoffs if you're meaningfully rewarded for each one - most people wouldn't consider foregoing offensive investment in a Pokémon that's meant as a sweeper or a cleaner, but if the rewards of Attack investment were subtle enough that it wasn't a death sentence to forego them...
Well, I feel like more people would be open to the trade of "a bit of power from your coverage moves for some bulk, but your best move is still okay" than the trade of "the power of all of your relevant moves (which you need) for some bulk (which still won't be very impressive)," you know?
This is also something that's neat about Pokémon with more extreme base stats - the higher the base stat, the less EV investment in that stat matters and the more freedom you have to choose to invest in other areas. Stats other than Speed are codependent enough that you can have weirdly lopsided stats without actually changing the power level - like how a Pokémon with 181 Attack and a 90 BP STAB isn't that different from a Pokémon with 140 Attack and a 110 BP STAB, or you can have the same bulk as Shuckle with 20/230/230 or with about 100/120/120 depending on investment. I may be wrong, but I think that's why Pokémon like Mega Garchomp and Black Kyurem could get away with being mixed attackers - investment mattered little enough on their higher offense that they could afford to sacrifice it for their lower one - which is something I always think is fascinating when I look at stats!
I also think it's interesting that the hypothetical move for Blissey and Gallade was proposed for their Special Defense, which is their higher defensive stat by a great margin - most Pokémon prefer to invest in their lower stat (Blissey especially! it usually runs max Defense as far as I know, and I don't think it ever really invests in Special Attack anyway, so it's not like there's any loss there), so this proposal actually creates a new tradeoff ("do I invest in the defense that needs it more [bulk at the cost of less power], or do I go all in on the defense that also boosts my moves [full power at the cost of gaining a critical weakness]?").
Meanwhile, Gallade as it is would... basically never consider investing in Special Defense in the first place? Its Attack is higher and it has one of the best physical STABs it could want - it strikes me as very unlikely that the option of giving all of that up to invest in Special Defense would ever be strong enough to outclass Attack investment in the first place. Even so, it has the potential (with a good enough BP) to introduce a niche for a new alternative spread that still is losing power in exchange for bulk - just in a way that's less comically inefficient and more worth considering, given that the new move is good enough. That actually introduces more tradeoffs rather than eliminating any!
So yeah, uh... this is getting a bit off-topic from the thread, oops, but short answer: I totally get what Imperial Magala is saying, and I'm with you on it! but I also think you may have misunderstood Iron Mage's point - I think they also fully understood what Imperial Magala was saying and were addressing legitimate potential cons and alternative solutions, not just misinterpreting it. C:
I just want an attack that would catch Pokemon that would switch in and expect a physical move to be hit by a special move. To connect to Three Houses, Dorothea is better at Magic than Weapons, so she has trouble hitting enemies with high resistance, but being a Dancer gives her access to Sword Dance, which lets her have a Physical Combat Art that hits low defense enemies hard because it runs off her high Charm.
Honestly I think this concept works very well *on signature or limited distribution moves*.
I don't think having high distribution moves with varying offensive stats used is good, because it can create very weird scenarios of Pokemon being able to be offensive behemot despite also being very bulky.
It sorta works for Body Press since it's a phisical fighting move, one of the easiest to shutdown offensive types of the game, but it shouldn't be common occurrence.
Speed and weight-related moves like Electro Ball or Heavy Slam are also fine because while they do give an edge in some scenarios despite no investment, they also become deadweight in others.
I think signature moves doing something similar (see G-bro or Necrozma's) are also fine, as they are limited to that specific pokemon and help building an identity for him to differentiate from other contenders, without necessarly having to just powercreep the opposition.
TLDR: as long as they have low distribution (Signature moves) or significant downsides (weight/speed based, Psyshock and Body Press being easy to deny) I think the concept is very good. I definitely would NOT like if they suddently however made a high distribution fairy type move that hits whichever side is weaker, obviously.
Body Press doesn't even have that much distribution. It covers just enough pokemon for variety and mostly based on body types, with a few pokemon, like Orbeetle, who get it as a cute surprise since they have the stat to run it.
I imagine any other moves like this would work similarly. Like a speed-based one, would probably be mostly relegated to pokemon who are known for speed like Rapidash, Scyther a few pokemon that have speed as their best asset but not all of them (Ie i'd expect Ninjask & Electrode to get it but i dunno if aerodactyl would) and then there'd probably be a few memes. Like Escavalier would probably get it because they're noted as going super fast in the pokedex despite having 20 base speed; put this in the same realm of things as "Final Gambit Shedinja" and "Pokethlon Dugtrio literally cant jump".
I figure the more ridiculous the stat they're working with, the less distribution they would give the move. I also figure there wouldn't be these moves in all the flavors of the type rainbow.
I imagine any other moves like this would work similarly. Like a speed-based one, would probably be mostly relegated to pokemon who are known for speed like Rapidash, Scyther a few pokemon that have speed as their best asset but not all of them (Ie i'd expect Ninjask & Electrode to get it but i dunno if aerodactyl would) and then there'd probably be a few memes. Like Escavalier would probably get it because they're noted as going super fast in the pokedex despite having 20 base speed; put this in the same realm of things as "Final Gambit Shedinja" and "Pokethlon Dugtrio literally cant jump".
I figure the more ridiculous the stat they're working with, the less distribution they would give the move. I also figure there wouldn't be these moves in all the flavors of the type rainbow.
Probably should have checked Aggron's Bulbapedia page instead of just Meteor Beam's.
To be fair, putting Aggron in the trailer when it's not in the game (yet?) is still really weird.
It was in section regarding the Tundra ...
It's showcasing the new double battle tournament.oops lolIt was in section regarding the Tundra ...
Guess who finally learns Bite in the Crown Tundra?
Now all we need is Growlithe to learn Growl and we can finally put down the picthforks!
Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
I've always wished Seaking got Drill Peck. In its original designs, Seaking has a spiral horn, which was kept well into 1997 as shown by the SW97 sprites. Here's a little timeline of how Seaking changed over time to better illustrate it. I wish Seaking still had this bit of design depth, but we're not on about that today.
But, there is a clear-cut reason as to why Seaking didn't get Drill Peck, and it's because it's called Drill Beak in Japanese. Hell, the description in English only specifies beaks as to how the attack is performed. But due to the way Drill Peck was translated, it caused little old me to scratch my head wondering why Seaking didn't get the move - despite getting Peck - for years! It made me a bit bewildered on Rhydon's front too...
So this is moreso an explanation than oddity, I suppose lol
Red and Green (1996) | Spaceworld 1997 (Nov 1997 GS) | Blue JP (c.1997) | Yellow (1998) |
But, there is a clear-cut reason as to why Seaking didn't get Drill Peck, and it's because it's called Drill Beak in Japanese. Hell, the description in English only specifies beaks as to how the attack is performed. But due to the way Drill Peck was translated, it caused little old me to scratch my head wondering why Seaking didn't get the move - despite getting Peck - for years! It made me a bit bewildered on Rhydon's front too...
So this is moreso an explanation than oddity, I suppose lol
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
So contrary to what some speculated Scald Raikou actually made into the final game and seemingly wasn't just some oversight. With that in mind we can collectively scratch our heads and say "What the actual hell?"
It seems Game Freak’s new way of avoiding power creep obsoleting older Pokémon is to expand their movepools to continue carving out new niches.
Might become a little strange with move justifications but I don’t actually think it’s a bad idea. And Raikou learning Scald doesn’t seem all that strange, I don’t think we’d have flagged it as odd if it learned it in Gen V.
I mean to be fair scald is weird move to be near universal among water types, I doubt a lot of them have a method to heat water to a boiling point. Raikou at least has the ability to make thunderstorm clouds and can use electricity to heat the water
Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
Fwiw Raikou is frequently observed to be on Rain Teams in the games, most notably being on Ein's team in Pokemon Colosseum. Perhaps giving it among the best Water-type moves in the game was just another way of trying to push players to use it in Rain? It's an interesting approach. Hell, they even made Weather Ball non-event...and finally fixed Entei's issues with that after a decade...
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
And Extremespeed and Aura Sphere! Raikou's movepool finally looks a lot less barren than it did for six generations.
Though I'm more puzzled as to why it gets Throat Chop. How the hell does it perform that move? Yes, a tiger can swipe its paw at you... but your throat would be the least of your worries as it's more likely to shatter your skull first.
At least it does have limbs long enough to pull it off.
And then you have Scolipede, who can too learn the move. What does it use to pull off Throat Chop? Its antennae?
Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
Throat Chop is called Hell Thrust in Japanese, which may be partly why so many odd Pokemon can learn it. Just view the distribution here, it's insane.
Some interesting cases;
Some interesting cases;
- Seaking
- Rapidash
- Corsola
- Cramorant
- Barraskewda
- Pincurchin
- Naganadel
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Ah, interesting. So it seems to be just disabling the throat instead of literally chopping it; Seaking and Rapidash can stab you in the throat to shut you up while Cramorant and Naganadel can presumably bite/grip your throat hard enough to stop you making noise. Scolipede learns Megahorn, so I guess it performs the move in the same way.
Going for the throat is a very common way to kill in the animal kingdom, so I always presumed they bite their throat if the user isn't bipedal or had something to stab with.
I feel Cramorant stabs with its beak while Naganadel stabs with its stinger
While I'm sure there's some that do just "stab" (think like taking a pen to the windpipe but not enough to really draw blood, a quick sharp motion that probably hurts like hell) when I see some of the the horned pokemon do it I just think, like. Taking a bat and just smacking someone's throat. Imagine Naganadel just doing a spin maneuver and smacking your throat specifically homerun
