Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

[Worldie]

bite's quite popular as an early-game move on anything with teeth, really, so i can understand why they kept it in. definitely agree on assurance/payback, though (also, the sheer number of low-power dark-type utility moves is quite impressive)

Assurance actually has some competitive usage so unlikely, but yeh Payback is pretty much pointless as I don't think I've ever seen it get some serious use. You don't usually want your strat to be "if i go last" unless you're a wall, and defensive mons usually run status inducing or crippling attacks like Scald or Knock Off anyway.

 

[holy_shiinotic]

Assurance actually has some competitive usage so unlikely, but yeh Payback is pretty much pointless as I don't think I've ever seen it get some serious use. You don't usually want your strat to be "if i go last" unless you're a wall, and defensive mons usually run status inducing or crippling attacks like Scald or Knock Off anyway.

Mudsdale @ Assault Vest
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Payback

 

[Celever]

Assurance actually has some competitive usage so unlikely, but yeh Payback is pretty much pointless as I don't think I've ever seen it get some serious use. You don't usually want your strat to be "if i go last" unless you're a wall, and defensive mons usually run status inducing or crippling attacks like Scald or Knock Off anyway.

Except... tanks are the middle ground between walls and offensive Pokémon, and they use Payback. Not just Mudsdale like above, but also Throh (since it doesn’t get Knock Off) and Hariyama before the Knock Off buff.

But this is all beside the point. If a move use a unique effect, it should be in the game. Even if Signal Beam had been Ampharos’ signature move, it should’ve got in because it helped Ampharos. Only where moves are actually redundant (Heal Order when Vespiquen later learns Roost) or clones where nothing important needs the clone (Hold Back and False Swipe) should a move be deleted. People come up with crazy strategies, Game Freak should keep giving us options to come up with those crazy strategies with.

Even Wring Out has seen competitive play in its time in the series — very rarely but existently. And for a move that’s still in the game, Future Sight is now a mainstay on Slowbro-K and Slowking-K thanks to Regenerator, where before the tech in Gen 7 it had basically never been used.

Cutting moves is just a bad idea in general. If balancing needs to be done, then balance the BP and accuracy it’s not that hard. Pursuit should really have been 20BP that doubled to 40 on switch out, for example. Then it woulda stuck around.

The only exception is Hidden Power. I much prefer it being gone.

 

[R_N]

The thing I keep thinking about when it comes to tryign to explain these moves as "oh well, they are bad or no one really used them" is like...

So I'll just use Heart Stamp & Barrage as a jumping point here. Like it kind of makes sense, right? They're signature-ish moves, but totally mismatched on the stats of hte pokemon that use them and also Barrage just sucks on every level.
But then we ... still have Electrify? Heliolisk was the only one that learned it before this generation and literally the only person I've seen use it is a youtuber who specifically creates eclectic teams and put it on their boltund to activate cell battery.
It's a very niche move on 2 (well 3, Heliolisk, Boltund and Helioptile) niche pokemon with a niche effect, feels like one they'd just let go.

 

[earl]

Pursuit should really have been 20BP that doubled to 40 on switch out, for example. Then it woulda stuck around.

I’d rather a move be cut than nerfed into absolute oblivion lol

 

[Ironmage]

Only where moves are actually redundant (Heal Order when Vespiquen later learns Roost)

Heck, Detect sees use in doubles when its claim to fame is literally "not named Protect" as a way around Imprison.

As for the example listed, Roost technically does something that Heal Order doesn't: it removes Vespiquen's flying type. While this only matters against slow mons and is usually beneficial, there are potential niches for that (e.g. dodging an ally's Earthquake).

 

[Celever]

I’d rather a move be cut than nerfed into absolute oblivion lol

MFW you wrote the wrong person as the quote </3

But actually nah, I don't think that would've nerfed it into oblivion at all. It would still be really viable, being the same power as most priority moves (not Sucker Punch or Extreme Speed ofc) but just one that triggers on a switch-out from the opponent. I think Pokémon like Tyranitar and Scizor would definitely still use it if its power were halved.

It's just the easy way out to say "this move is powerful let's delete it", the point is just that there were other options for balancing. Just make Return/Frustration cap at 85BP for instance and then boost Take Down to 100 (maybe even Double Edge to 130). Considering they can't hit anything super effectively, Normal-Type moves should be more powerful to start with.

That's why the only move that really deserved to be cut is Hidden Power. Its mechanics were a mess to begin with and it was an unhealthy presence in literally every metagame. I can't see a way to reform the move so that it's balanced.

Edit: No point posting a one-liner below, but actually making Pursuit Normal-Type solves everything much better than my idea. Good shout from you.

 

[earl]

MFW you wrote the wrong person as the quote </3

But actually nah, I don't think that would've nerfed it into oblivion at all. It would still be really viable, being the same power as most priority moves (not Sucker Punch or Extreme Speed ofc) but just one that triggers on a switch-out from the opponent. I think Pokémon like Tyranitar and Scizor would definitely still use it if its power were halved.

It's just the easy way out to say "this move is powerful let's delete it", the point is just that there were other options for balancing. Just make Return/Frustration cap at 85BP for instance and then boost Take Down to 100 (maybe even Double Edge to 130). Considering they can't hit anything super effectively, Normal-Type moves should be more powerful to start with.

That's why the only move that really deserved to be cut is Hidden Power. Its mechanics were a mess to begin with and it was an unhealthy presence in literally every metagame. I can't see a way to reform the move so that it's balanced.

Pursuit wasn’t overpowered, though, it was just (in my opinion) artificially limiting the viability of Ghost- and Psychic-types for no real legitimate reason. With Pursuit only hitting 40 BP on a switch, it makes clicking the move very, very risky with the payout only being sniping the frailest of targets (short of Blacephalon or Alakazam I don’t really see TTar’s pursuit catching much of anything). The Pursuit user already risks (against neutral targets) missing the switch read at its current power level, if it was halved the risk would never be worth the cost. Just making the move into a even more MU-based kill button that’s otherwise useless. Priority move BP is also not really comparable, as priority moves mandate a reaction and also guarantee a revenge kill unless a switch happens, whereas Pursuit is inherently a 50/50. The only 50/50 priority move is Sucker Punch, which has a higher BP for that very reason.

Basically, I don’t think Pursuit was ever overpowered, just kind of artificially strangling the viability of a few types. I think it would be a lot cooler if it was made Normal-type, that way it would be a general way to punish a switch (especially useful in boots meta) while not punishing any particular type. Also keeps Ghost-types virtually untrappable for the flavor. Halving the power of a Dark-type Pursuit would probably just make it irrelevant (and then, ironically, deserving of a cut as it would be absolutely worthless in-game).

I don’t think Return/Frustration were cut for balance reasons either. It was probably because of rental teams, iirc.

I agree that Hidden Power deserved to die though

 

[CPU]

Pursuit is a case where typeless damage may have been a good option, at least for when it procs on switches.

Future Sight losing typeless damage was also a poor decision IMO.

 

[Kurona]

Yeah, I feel return/frustration was part of them streamlining it for both rental teams and so that you don’t have to keep track of the friendship stat.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Future Sight losing typeless damage was also a poor decision IMO.

Disagree. Having a strong hit two turns later is nice, but not nearly as impactful as hitting before a switch. Part of what makes Future Sight good is being able to threaten the opponent with attacks of two different types at once. The classic example is using Future Sight and then switching to a Fighting-type. The Future Sight punishes any Poison-types looking to check the Fighting-type, while trying to absorb the Future Sight with a Dark- or Steel-type puts you at risk of a super-effective Fighting-type attack.

 

[Pikachu315111]

(also, the sheer number of low-power dark-type utility moves is quite impressive)

That's kind of Dark-type's moves gimmick. They don't have powerful moves normally but their moves have an effect that either provides an advantage (Bite & Dark Pulse has a good chance of flinching, Crunch good chance to lower Defense, Feint Attack never misses, Snarl always lower Special Attack, Sucker Punch has higher priority if target moves first, Thief steals held item, & Throat Chop prevents Sound moves), hit hard under a certain condition (Assurance doubles damage if user been damaged, Lash Out does double damage if user's stats were lowered that turn, Night Slash is high-critical hit ratio, Payback does double damage if user moves last, Power Trip does more damage the more stat increases it has, & Pursuit does double damage if target is being recalled), or both (Knock Off both has the target lose their item and doubles its power doing so). And even moves that do high damage are usual Signature Moves or have some kind of strange effect like Foul Play using the target's Attack stat.

Cutting moves is just a bad idea in general. If balancing needs to be done, then balance the BP and accuracy it’s not that hard. Pursuit should really have been 20BP that doubled to 40 on switch out, for example. Then it woulda stuck around.

Nah, Pursuit could still be 40, but instead of double power I think 1.5 power would have sufficed. I think 60 is a nice compromise between punishing but not too hindering.

However I think they can drop Knock Off's effect of doubling power. I think most players use it for just getting rid of the opponent's item anyway so the doubling power wasn't needed.

The thing I keep thinking about when it comes to tryign to explain these moves as "oh well, they are bad or no one really used them" is like...

So I'll just use Heart Stamp & Barrage as a jumping point here. Like it kind of makes sense, right? They're signature-ish moves, but totally mismatched on the stats of hte pokemon that use them and also Barrage just sucks on every level.
But then we ... still have Electrify? Heliolisk was the only one that learned it before this generation and literally the only person I've seen use it is a youtuber who specifically creates eclectic teams and put it on their boltund to activate cell battery.
It's a very niche move on 2 (well 3, Heliolisk, Boltund and Helioptile) niche pokemon with a niche effect, feels like one they'd just let go.

Not to mention why don't they just just make the move better instead of tossing it.

For Heart Stamp just increase it to 75 Power, make its Category Special (though if they want Physical damage make it so it uses target's Defense for damage calculation) and it pretty much becomes a Psychic-type Air Slash for Woobat family which isn't so bad.

For Barrage make it Psychic-type, 25 Power, Special Category, & hits 3-5 times (and give normal Exeggutor Skill Link).

I don’t think Return/Frustration were cut for balance reasons either. It was probably because of rental teams, iirc.

Problem is they didn't make a move to properly replace it. With no Types weak to Normal, would a 100 Power, 100% accurate Normal-type move with no secondary effect be that OP?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

However I think they can drop Knock Off's effect of doubling power. I think most players use it for just getting rid of the opponent's item anyway so the doubling power wasn't needed.

It's only x1.5 instead of x2, though I agree the damage boost should go. 97.5 power on a move that permanently cripples the opponent is fucking stupid.

 

[ChoiceScarfed]

Why doesn't Rillaboom learn belly drum? I know it doesn't have much of a belly, but it has a freaking drum!

 

[CoolMan6001]

Why doesn't Rillaboom learn belly drum? I know it doesn't have much of a belly, but it has a freaking drum!

Oh man imagine if this actually got it. All Rillaboom would need to do is find an opportunity and then:

+6 252+ Atk Rillaboom Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 416-490 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 339-399 (111.5 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Corviknight: 420-495 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 447-526 (130.3 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 256-302 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Hey something actually lives this)

this would end up as a GG. This is probably not the reason it doesn't have it, but I hope this never gets this move.

 

[Worldie]

Why doesn't Rillaboom learn belly drum? I know it doesn't have much of a belly, but it has a freaking drum!

Because giving a pokemon who is (with leftovers) capable of innately healing 16% hp per round on top of having stab 70 BP priority a easy way to get +6 attack is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Imperial Magala]

I think most players use it for just getting rid of the opponent's item anyway so the doubling power wasn't needed.

Was Knock Off used often pre-buff? Cause nobody seemed to talk about it until it could be used as good offense.

 

[Worldie]

Was Knock Off used often pre-buff? Cause nobody seemed to talk about it until it could be used as good offense.

Pre-buff it also had a very bad distribution.
Before the tutor introduced, almost no OU viable pokemon had it if I remember correctly.
The tutor was introduced in BW2, but at the time having a 20 BP attack was still not worth it outside of utility mons.
Then Gen 6 happened.

 

[holy_shiinotic]

Pre-buff it also had a very bad distribution.
Before the tutor introduced, almost no OU viable pokemon had it if I remember correctly.
The tutor was introduced in BW2, but at the time having a 20 BP attack was still not worth it outside of utility mons.
Then Gen 6 happened.

And Fairies happened at the same time. Not very good timing, in my opinion.

 

[Kurona]

Dark as an offensive typing was made a lot better in Gen 6 due to Steel no longer resisting it too

 

[Celever]

Was Knock Off used often pre-buff? Cause nobody seemed to talk about it until it could be used as good offense.

Pre-buff it also had a very bad distribution.
Before the tutor introduced, almost no OU viable pokemon had it if I remember correctly.
The tutor was introduced in BW2, but at the time having a 20 BP attack was still not worth it outside of utility mons.
Then Gen 6 happened.

Knock Off was a tutor move in Gen IV and had pretty good distribution, and was used quite frequently. Tangrowth and Sableye both used it in their main sets in various Gen IV tiers and it was actually the only reason to use either of them. Similarly, Armaldo and Hariyama of all things had niches in Gen III OU as the best Knock Off users — they never reached popularity among most players, enough to rise from UUBL anyway, but saw a respectable amount of successful tournament play with a good winrate and were generally seen as the best options from UUBL. They both beat different common stall cores so counterteaming was a part of why both were used frequently in tournaments. In Gen V Lickilicky joined the fray as a great Knock Off user too.

Knock Off didn’t need a buff at all, it was very common on balance and stall teams before Gen VI. The buff just made it also good on offence to the point that almost every team carries Knock Off somewhere, which was just bizarre.

 

[Worldie]

Knock Off didn’t need a buff at all, it was very common on balance and stall teams before Gen VI. The buff just made it also good on offence to the point that almost every team carries Knock Off somewhere, which was just bizarre.

I think the three the reasons for Knock Off being used SO much is that
- There's no actually good phisical Dark stab outside of signature moves. The only one that has higher BP (night slash) only has 5 more, and while it has higher crit chance, you don't want to rely on crits to win to begin with, and might as well have the utility and spammability of Knock Off which will often hit for double damage anyway.
- Lot of fighting pokemon want a way to hit Ghost and Psychic types that wall them, and guess what, Knock off is Dark type and hits both supereffectively. It's like, the dream coverage for them.
- Defensive pokemon usually won't be doing much damage anyway, so expecially if they have particularly low offensive stats (hello Toxapex), slapping Knock Off in a 4th moveslot just to add more issues at breaking them is another basically-no-downside choice.

In general, the "no real downside" combined with lack of better options (what are you going to run, night slash / shadow claw?) has a lot to do with its omnipresence, moreso now in gen 8 where it doesn't have to compete with Pursuit.

Gen 6-7 with Megastones and then Z-crystals tecnically indirectly nerfed Knock-Off effectiveness as base Dark phisical stab / coverage on offensive mons that had other options, but gen 8 basically brought back its spammability due to having no non-removable items again.

On other hand, gen 7-8 introduced a couple more powerful Dark type attacks, notably Darkest Lariat and Throat Chop, both formerly incineroar's signature moves.
Throat Chop has a relatively wide distribution but the secondary effect is still far too situational compared to Knock Off's reliability.
Darkest Lariat has a pretty small distribution and again, its side effect is far too situational as well.

On side note, VGC actually has a solid alternative at last (Lash Out) which works very well due to the fact Dynamax is a thing.
Lot of Dynamax moves reduce stats which trigger Lash Out's double damage, and Knock Off also is pretty limited in distribution when tutors are not factored in.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Was Knock Off used often pre-buff? Cause nobody seemed to talk about it until it could be used as good offense.

What Celever said above is true, but essentially, Knock Off was basically a totally different move before Gen 6. It was strictly a utility move: it may not hit hard, but the ability to strip a Pokemon of its item and render the item unusable was still very much useful, especially since basically everything relied on having an item. It was mainly used by defensive Pokemon as a form of utility, with the small damage it could do being good for not making it disabled by Taunt. I believe Seismitoad used it in BW NU and RU on its defensive Rocks sets to Knock off stuff like Eviolite from Misdreavus and Gurdurr, which was always neat.

It's still used in such a way nowadays, but back then it was a good move, just strictly for specific kinds of Pokemon (defensive/support Pokemon), while the buff in Gen 6 expanded its use into a powerful offensive Dark STAB for Dark types, as well as a strong coverage attack for Fighting and Normal-types who needed coverage against Psychic and Ghost-types. But it had its use back then for its ability to remove an item, which in itself was a useful attribute since everything in competitive ran an item.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

- There's no actually good phisical Dark stab outside of signature moves. The only one that has higher BP (night slash) only has 5 more, and while it has higher crit chance, you don't want to rely on crits to win to begin with, and might as well have the utility and spammability of Knock Off which will often hit for double damage anyway.

Crunch? Granted, not a ton of overlap with Pokemon who actually want to use Dark moves, at least not when compared to Night Slash and Knock Off.

 

[Worldie]

Crunch? Granted, not a ton of overlap with Pokemon who actually want to use Dark moves, at least not when compared to Night Slash and Knock Off.

Boils to same boat of Throat Chop: 15 extra BPs, for a situational effect, compared to spammability.