Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I know you said not to post in the thread to reply about the counters you posted but I think responding to them proves a good point about the versatility of mimikyu.
First I’m going to list all of the counters that don’t beat a specific set or have a hard time beating that set.
Ferrothorn- the only problem with this one is that it can lose to twave with proper predictions and 3-4 paras
Venusaur- This one loses a lot easier than ferrothorn to twave, predictions between sub and twave along with the chance of sleep powder to miss puts this one in mimikyu’s favor.
Dragonite- loses to twave 100%, well technically not 100% but just about as close as you can get to it with twave mimi

Those are the only three I could find but what I noticed when I looked at the list is how crazy the evs are on some of these Pokémon. Greninja has 220 defense, a fast frail Pokémon shouldn’t have to run that and it severely cuts the other matchups it can win. The same goes for 252 defense gyara, max defense charizards, and a few other Pokémon on then list would much rather be running other ev spreads. This is overcentralizing in my opinion and shouldn’t be allowed in a healthy meta game.
Now if only I wouldn’t get haxed 20 times in the 1200s so I could get reqs

 

[ayedan]

I got them! Huge s/o goes to toadandhishaxx and UBERLandon21 for the teams. And Tally for supporting me <3.

And special shoutout to deg for missing his hypnosis <3.

Here is the team i used to get out of low ladder.

Hide

Team
enjoy~

 

[Rellia]

hello all, made reqs :)

 

[motogp]

Mold Breaker, sustain, certain Taunt, certain priority, certain sleep, certain Encore, sound moves, multi-hit. Quite a lot of mons fall under those categories. Also, there's no reason why outspeeding it or using speed control is an invalid means of beating it. The only problematic thing that I see with Mimikyu is that it can be difficult to tell between its sets. Even then, though, Charizard and even Choice Scarf are more problematic than Mimikyu in that aspect.

Mold Breaker:The only Mold Breaker Pokemon slower than Mimikyu that can defeat it is Excadrill.
Taunt:No,Barbaracle doesn't beat Mimikyu.Taunt Aggron,Mawile,Skarmory,Tapu Bulu,yes.
Encore:Z-Moves bypass Encore,moving on
Sound Moves:Mimikyu 4* resists Bug Buzz and is immune to Hyper Voice and Uproar,moving on
Multi-Hit:only specific pokemon like Choice Banded Rhyperior I believe.Plus,most multi-hit moves don't have perfect accuracy and need to hit a lot of times in order to effectively kill Mimikyu,which adds a certain element of luck.
Mimikyu is unpredictable.Mimikyu has very few counters.

Why I'm making this point:
Even if you do have a Pokemon that defeats Curse+Thunder Wave Mimikyu,most of the time you will be losing to other sets.It's way easier to guess the Charizard form than to guess Mimikyu's set,which is why Mimikyu has risen to #1 in usage in the first place (Charizard Y dropped to #17).Choice Scarf is another story that I would very much like to discuss,but let me give you a hint/question:
How many Pokemon can run Choice Scarf viably while not being able to EV to live that same attack?

 

[Felucia]

Congratulations to smiletoad for winning the September official leaderboards. The boards have been reset and will be moving on with the same schedule as last month (unless someone changes it)

 

[Elo Bandit]

Reqs achieved. s/o ayedan for the team.

 

[Nalei]

This kind of ambiguity gives Mimikyu users an edge over their opponents, as opponents are forced to decide whether it's best to break the disguise or do something else, whereas Mimikyu users are typically not faced with having to make as difficult of a decision. This kind of ambiguity factor gives Mimikyu ties in similarity to Charizard and (to a lesser extent) Gyarados, where players are forced to think about what to do when faced with these Pokemon, rather than immediately having a general understanding of what to expect from them, beyond obvious STABs, setup, and coverage.

I'll agree with this to some extent, but for a lot of Pokemon, "the play" is pretty consistent against Mimikyu. If you're a Zard, you're always going to break Disguise. If you're a Magearna, you have to assume that it's not Curse so you Iron Defense. Metagross breaks disguise, etc. That's not to say that there's not things that play differently against different sets, especially speed control users being wary of Substitute, but it's not happening to the same degree that you'll see with Charizard.

What pushes Mimikyu over Charizard and Gyarados, however, is the fact that it also has ability to viably fish for RNG with the move Thunder Wave. This set allows Mimikyu to use its free Disguise turn to paralyze the opponent with Thunder Wave and follow it up by using Substitute repeatedly until the opponent is eventually immobilized, then giving Mimikyu the opportunity to use Z-Curse, which restores its HP back to 100% before Cursing the opponent (just restores back 100% if the opponent is already Cursed), and stalling down the opponent with Protect and Substitute until they faint. This strategy gives Mimikyu 5 or 6 turns (4 Subs + last chance at 1 HP (plus the possibility of the opponent being para'd on the turn Mimikyu uses Thunder Wave, if Mimikyu is faster)) of paralysis to get a single free turn for Mimikyu to set up Curse. This means Mimikyu has either a 76.26953125% (5 turns) or 82.2021484375% (6 turns) chance of automatically winning against anything that doesn't use Taunt (and/or Encore, in some cases), non-Rest recovery, strong priority, strong multi-hit moves, is immune to Thunder Wave, the ability to bypass Substitute (sound moves/Infiltrator/etc), has an ability that allows it to get past Curse/Disguise (Magic Guard/Mold Breaker/etc), or any combination of these elements. While this may sound like a lot, I don't believe any of these actually apply to a majority of metagame-relevant Pokemon. Unfortunately, the only way to prove this is with some good old VR matchups, so let's jump right in!

The 82% figure is irrelevant. You don't use TWave against something that's slower than you. If you're relying on getting a 24% chance, you're doing it wrong. You need to expect to lose those matchups. You (unless you're UnleashOurPassion ) would never say "my Metagross counter is Gyarados, I'll just pull the 20% flinch off," so why would you say "my TWave Mimi counter is (mon that beats it if it doesn't get para'd), I'll just pull the 24% chance off"?

Flame Charge Zards (with speed investment beats TWave 62% of the time), Iron Head+Taunt Gyara, Mega Metagross, Bulldoze Landorus-T, Electroweb Magnezone, Mew, Taunt Aggron, Heatran, Substitute Kartana, Mega Mawile, Crustle, Whimsicott, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Haxorus, Alolan Ninetales, Skarmory, Band Rhyperior and Serperior all counter Mimikyu. This includes jank sets like Z-Shadow Claw, Curse with Taunt, and SD with Taunt. Keep to the standard SD/Bulk Up Mimikium and Mimikium/TWave Curse and leave some wiggle room for predictions, and it's "countered" by Reflect+Taunt Lele, Mega Slowbro, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, Ferrothorn, SubFirium Volcarona, Entei, Sub Nihilego, and Magneton, too. Mimikyu doesn't have any real shortage of counterplay.

Mold Breaker:The only Mold Breaker Pokemon slower than Mimikyu that can defeat it is Excadrill.

And Mega Gyarados

Taunt:No,Barbaracle doesn't beat Mimikyu.Taunt Aggron,Mawile,Skarmory,Tapu Bulu,yes.

I didn't say that Barbaracle did. Also Mega Gyarados, Lele, Fini, etc

Encore:Z-Moves bypass Encore,moving on

It can Z-Curse while Encored, but it's still gonna die

Multi-Hit:only specific pokemon like Choice Banded Rhyperior I believe.Plus,most multi-hit moves don't have perfect accuracy and need to hit a lot of times in order to effectively kill Mimikyu,which adds a certain element of luck.

Generally they only need 3 hits which is pretty favorable. Minimum accuracy we're looking at is like 90. Rhyperior doesn't even need to be banded, Golem, Crustle, Cloyster, Heracross, Staka, even Mega Steelix all beat Cursekyu.

It's way easier to guess the Charizard form than to guess Mimikyu's set,which is why Mimikyu has risen to #1 in usage in the first place

Uhh, not really. Zard is crazy hard to predict and has way fewer counters than Mimikyu. Even if you're just gonna go by usage and say "this is prolly X because X is more common," Zard wins
Charizard-Mega-X | 15.49289%
Charizard-Mega-Y | 5.68726%
Curse 18.697%
That's 3/4 Charizards that are X and 4/5 Mimikyus that are offensive

How many Pokemon can run Choice Scarf viably while not being able to EV to live that same attack?

How many Pokemon can run Scarf that can't live their own attacks? Not sure exactly what's being asked, but some Scarfers go full 252/252 (especially mixed ones) while others invest a tad bit of bulk. Out of the ~31 viable Scarfers, 5 only run Scarf, all of which are unranked. Scarf gives a large number of Pokemon a completely different set of wins and losses and is very hard to detect at team preview. I'm not too serious about this at this point, but #BanScarf

 

[The Official Glyx]

Flame Charge Zards (with speed investment beats TWave 62% of the time)✓
Iron Head+Taunt Gyara✕ Wisp??? You're not reliably outspeeding them, either, so idk what you were thinking here.
Mega Metagross✓
Bulldoze Landorus-T✕ You yourself made a Mimikyu set (that's now a sample team set, I think) that beat or 50/50d Landorus. Also, having an extra 5% accuracy on your speed control makes 0 difference.
Electroweb Magnezone✓
Mew✓
Taunt Aggron✓
Heatran (Taunt because Sub 50/50s otherwise)✓
Substitute Kartana (Sub + Synthesis seems really bad, and just going 50/50 on any matchups afterwards without Synthesis seems even worse, not to mention 0 usage on Sub at all, besides me in 1760 stats, but hey, at least you beat Mimikyu) ✓
Mega Mawile (Taunt)✓
Crustle✕ You better be getting all 5 hits on Rock Blast because you ain't countering Mimikyu otherwise.
Whimsicott✓
Excadrill (Steelium)✓
Mega Scizor✓
Haxorus (Band/Steelium)✓
Alolan Ninetales✕ Z-attack Mimikyu slaughters, are you actually serious?
Skarmory (Taunt)✓
Band Rhyperior✕ You would need approx 8/9 hits with Rock Blast out of a possible 15 to beat WoW/SD Mimikyu. Even more if WoW/Bulk Up. Not necessarily un-reliable, but certainly not gonna get you the win every time, or even almost every time. Any move besides Rock Blast just loses to Curse.
Serperior✓
Reflect+Taunt Lele✕ Simply put, Mimikyu is faster. Upon doing some calcs, I found that you can tank a LSF + 2 Play Roughs, if you have the absolute max physical bulk and use Reflect, but then you just wind up being dicked over by Curse + Z-attack sets, anyways, so-
Mega Slowbro✓
Aegislash(Loses to offensive Ghostium, but that's somewhat of an unset so you'll get this one)✓
Mega Pinsir (Bulk Up + Facade + Quick Attack)✓ You may win vs Mimikyu, but if you use anti-Mimikyu Pinsir for anything other than cteaming someone, are you really winning?
Ferrothorn✕ Like I said, 50/50 for both when it comes to Cursikyu.
SubFirium Volcarona (Roost)✓
Entei (Flame Charge)✓
Sub Nihilego✕ They use Curse, you use Sub. Really more of a one-time bait than it is a counter.
Magneton (Steelium)✓

Magneton calcs

252 SpA Magneton Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 280-331 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 0 Atk Mimikyu Let's Snuggle Forever vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 195-230 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 84-99 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mimikyu doesn't have any real shortage of counterplay.

28 minus 8 Counters (many of which require just a bit too much effort imo to specifically beat Mimikyu) seems like a bit of a shortage to me.

Also, an important note on the "low" usage Curse has:
Curse 18.697%
Mimikyu - #1 in 1v1 | Usage: 17.50811%

18.697% X 17.50811% = 3.2734913267%
This means that there are still more Curse Mimikyu on the ladder than there are ANY Heatran, ANY Meloetta, ANY Incineroar, and ANYthing else with less than 3.2734913267% usage in 1v1 (which is ranks 27 and below).

Interpret as you will.

 

[Felucia]

You (unless you're UnleashOurPassion ) would never say "my Metagross counter is Gyarados, I'll just pull the 20% flinch off,"

Am I really that bad?

Edit: I am really that bad

 

[Nalei]

Iron Head+Taunt Gyara✕ Wisp??? You're not reliably outspeeding them, either, so idk what you were thinking here.

It DDs turn 1, Megas and Iron Heads on turn 2 onwards. It beats even WoW with the correct spread. The only way it could possibly lose is to a Taunt+Bulk Up/WoW that is played correctly and outspeeds.

Alolan Ninetales✕ Z-attack Mimikyu slaughters, are you actually serious?

This should have been in the second section, but Ninetales totally beats it most of the time. Z-Charm, Sub and Snow Warning work really well together to beat Mimikyu.

Bulldoze Landorus-T✕ You yourself made a Mimikyu set (that's now a sample team set, I think) that beat or 50/50d Landorus. Also, having an extra 5% accuracy on your speed control makes 0 difference.
You better be getting all 5 hits on Rock Blast because you ain't countering Mimikyu otherwise.
Band Rhyperior✕ You would need approx 8/9 hits with Rock Blast out of a possible 15 to beat WoW/SD Mimikyu. Even more if WoW/Bulk Up. Not necessarily un-reliable, but certainly not gonna get you the win every time, or even almost every time. Any move besides Rock Blast just loses to Curse.

My bad, these definitely lose to WoW+Bulk Up

Reflect+Taunt Lele✕ Simply put, Mimikyu is faster. Upon doing some calcs, I found that you can tank a LSF + 2 Play Roughs, if you have the absolute max physical bulk and use Reflect, but then you just wind up being dicked over by Curse + Z-attack sets, anyways, so-

Another whoops, you're right

Ferrothorn✕ Like I said, 50/50 for both when it comes to Cursikyu.
Sub Nihilego✕ They use Curse, you use Sub. Really more of a one-time bait than it is a counter.

Keep to the standard SD/Bulk Up Mimikium and Mimikium/TWave Curse and leave some wiggle room for predictions, and it's "countered" by...

--

28 minus 8 Counters (many of which require just a bit too much effort imo to specifically beat Mimikyu) seems like a bit of a shortage to me.

28-4 (or 28-6) but same difference. 24 counters isn't unreasonable, especially considering that no one set beats an altogether overwhelming amount of Pokemon. Gyarados has a generous 10 counters and Charizard has only 9. For a top-tier Pokemon, that's a lot of reliable counterplay. Seriously, compared to the other 2 S ranks, it's actually remarkable how many counters Mimikyu has.
Gyarados: Specs/Normalium Porygon-Z, some kind of whack Lele, maybe Mega Altaria, Primarina (going to just call Confide or Z-Bounce unsets), Tapu Fini, Kommo-o, Zeraora, Mega Medicham, Tapu Bulu, Thundurus-T
Charizard: Stone Edge+Taunt Gyarados, Mega Altaria (Belly Drum+Iron Tail=unset), Heatran (Rock Tomb+EQ or Brick Break=unset), Mega Tyranitar, Crustle(ish), Mega Diancie, Archeops, Terrakion, Nihilego

This means that there are still more Curse Mimikyu on the ladder than there are ANY Heatran, ANY Meloetta, ANY Incineroar, and ANYthing else with less than 3.2734913267% usage in 1v1 (which is ranks 27 and below).

That is still indeed quite high usage, but that's not the point. The point was that on a direct usage basis, it's easier to tell which set Mimikyu is than Charizard.

 

[Morgan]

Charizard has only 9

Charizard having 9 counters isn't unreasonable, as it is two different megas with two different typings and MU Spreads. But gyara having 10 counters is ridiculous.

 

[The Official Glyx]

W = Win
L = Lose
U = Uncertain
V = Varies by set

Gyarados Matchups

Charizard-Mega-X -> Majority W 1

Charizard-Mega-Y -> V 1

Gyarados-Mega -> Majority V 2

Mimikyu -> Majority L 1


A+ Rank

Dragonite -> W 2

Magearna -> U 1

Metagross-Mega -> Majority L 2

A Rank

Landorus-Therian -> W 3

Porygon-Z -> Majority L 3

Tapu Lele -> U 2

Zygarde-Complete -> V 3

A- Rank

Greninja -> Majority W 4

Lopunny-Mega -> Majority W 5

Magnezone -> W 6

Slowbro-Mega -> V 4 (Max Atk + Crunch + Taunt)

Venusaur-Mega -> U 3

B+ Rank

Aegislash -> W 7

Altaria-Mega -> L 4

Donphan -> W 8

Gardevoir-Mega -> L 5

Genesect -> L 6

Golem -> W 9

Jumpluff -> Majority L 6.5 / Majority W 9.5 (Grassium / Non)

Meloetta -> V 5

Mew -> W 10 / V 5.5 (Mewnium / Kee)

Naganadel -> W 11

Primarina -> V 6.5

Tapu Fini -> L 7.5

B Rank

Aggron-Mega -> W 12

Blaziken -> W 13

Chansey -> V 7.5

Ferrothorn -> Majority L 8.5

Garchomp -> W 14

Heatran -> W 15

Heracross-Mega -> Majority L 9.5

Kartana -> L 10.5

Kommo-o -> L 11.5

Mawile-Mega -> U 4

Necrozma -> Majority W 16

Pinsir-Mega -> Majority L 12.5

Sableye-Mega -> Majority W 17

Sawk -> W 18

Tyranitar-Mega -> W 19

Zeraora -> L 13.5

B- Rank

Blastoise-Mega -> Majority W 20

Blissey -> L 14.5

Celesteela -> U 5

Crustle -> V 8.5 (Taunt)

Diancie-Mega -> U 6 (Diamond Storm is a poopy)

Durant -> V 9.5 (Thunder Fang vs Mega is about as reliable as Hypnomiss, while X-Scissor requires predicting)

Gengar-Mega -> W 21

Hoopa-Unbound -> V 10.5

Swampert-Mega -> W 22

Togekiss -> Majority W 22.5 / Majority L 15 (Scarf / Non)

Victini -> W 23.5

Volcarona -> W 24.5

Whimsicott -> W 25 / V 11 (DD Ice Fang > Moonblast)

C+ Rank

Archeops -> W 26

Avalugg -> W 27

Buzzwole -> L 16

Carracosta -> W 28

Deoxys-S -> W 28.5 / U 6.5 (Specs / PP Stall)

Excadrill -> W 29.5

Gallade-Mega -> L 17 (idrk what gallade runs, so just assuming it wins)

Incineroar -> W 30.5

Kyurem -> V 12 (Taunt + Outrage)

Latios -> W 31.5

Marowak-Alola -> W 32.5

Medicham-Mega -> L 18 (Giving you the benefit of the doubt since Rock Tomb basically hard counters)

Pheromosa -> W 33.5

Porygon2 -> Majority L 19

Scizor-Mega -> W 34 / L 19.5 (Taunt / Non)

Tapu Bulu -> L 20.5

Terrakion -> W 35

Umbreon -> U 7.5 (Needs Taunt)

Vivillon -> Majority L 21.5

C Rank

Blacephalon -> W 36

Camerupt-Mega -> W 37

Entei -> W 38

Garchomp-Mega -> W 39

Haxorus -> W 40

Hydreigon -> W 41

Infernape -> W 42

Keldeo -> L 22.5? (I legitimately don't know)

Krookodile -> W 43

Landorus -> W 44

Latias-Mega -> W 45

Meowstic-M -> W 46

Nihilego -> W 47

Pidgeot-Mega -> L 23.5

Skarmory -> L 24.5

Relicanth -> W 48

Thundurus-Therian -> L 25.5

Type: Null -> W 49

C- Rank

Cloyster -> W 50

Lucario-Mega -> W 51

Manaphy -> V 13

Ninetales-Alola -> L 26.5

Pyukumuku -> L 27.5 (Only because Z-Toxic)

Quagsire -> U 8.5

Rhyperior -> W 52

Serperior -> L 28.5

Salazzle -> W 53

Suicune -> W 54 (Taunt)

D Rank

Abomasnow-Mega -> L 29.5

Alakazam-Mega -> W 55

Aron -> W 56

Azumarill -> L 30.5

Barbaracle -> W 56.5 / L 31 (Taunt / Non)

Breloom -> Majority L 32

Clefable -> Majority L 33

Dusclops -> W 57.5

Magneton -> L 34

Manectric-Mega -> L 35

Sceptile -> L 36

Slaking -> W 58.5

Smeargle -> Majority L 37

Stunfisk -> U 9.5

Talonflame -> W 59.5

Volcanion -> W 60.5

Totals:
Wins: 60.5
Losses: 37
Uncertain: 9.5
Variable: 13

Looks like a bit more than 10 to me...

fortunately had gyarados matchups on hand thanks to all the people complaining that it should be dropped even though it's way better than anything else in A+

But anyways, please try to avoid using exaggerated numbers because I WILL fact check that ish. The point still stands that Mimikyu has set ambiguity to such dangerous levels that it outright requires players to "predict sets", much like the infamous Kyurem-Black of yesteryear. Charizard is at least predictable to the extent of always being a strong Fire type attacker, such that its Fire typing is all that really matters in a vast majority of team preview matchups, whereas Mimikyu actually threatens losses with something other than using strong STAB attacks, in addition to the added benefit of being able to take advantage of a free hit and make potentially lost matchups a win through RNG.

 

[Quackers]

Hi I just want to say that I don't play this metagame and have a 0% understanding of what I am about to suggest is actually viable or not, but why not use crobat?

Crobat has access to no miss toxic, taunt, super fang, u-turn, tailwind, defog, haze, confusion ray, and most importantly mean look.

Now I know what your thinking, "Why use this frail bat whose children I murder out of pure frustrated delight, when I could be using any other poison type such as Salazzle, nihelgo?"

The answer is simple: mean look. Mean look is the single greatest gift that lord helix has ever given to a pokemon, whether it by ariados's spider web, or Decidueye's spirit shackle, nothing can compete to the glory that is mean look.



In all seriousness, why not Nihelgo? No miss toxic, plus being able to resist charizard's fire stab moves seems like a good enough reason to be able to stop mimikyu.

Also if mimikyu and charizard have such high usage stats, shouldn't there be some sort for viability ranking or something? I may not play this metagame, but I would like to know basic things such as how viable pokemon are and what is banned without having to go through a few pages just to see that it was unbanned according to someone's edited post rather than an official statement.

 

[selfiehater]

Hello guys, this is One Hit Knock Off here.

Also if mimikyu and charizard have such high usage stats, shouldn't there be some sort for viability ranking or something? I may not play this metagame, but I would like to know basic things such as how viable pokemon are and what is banned without having to go through a few pages just to see that it was unbanned according to someone's edited post rather than an official statement.

For your information, there is a viability ranking list for 1v1, no tier (not even an OM) ever flourishes (especially as far as 1v1 has) without basic resources like a VR or a speed tier compendium. Here is the thread for every sort of resource you can imagine for this OM (The link I gave directly sends you to the VR list, please scroll up and down to find other resources).

Edit: Sorry this became a one-liner.

 

[motogp]

And Mega Gyarados

I think explicitly stated that I am not exclusively talking about the Twave+Z-Curse set so no.You need to view Mimikyu as a whole instead of looking at different sets to realise why it is problematic.

I didn't say that Barbaracle did. Also Mega Gyarados, Lele, Fini, etc

Read above

It can Z-Curse while Encored, but it's still gonna die

Read more above

Generally they only need 3 hits which is pretty favorable. Minimum accuracy we're looking at is like 90. Rhyperior doesn't even need to be banded, Golem, Crustle, Cloyster, Heracross, Staka, even Mega Steelix all beat Cursekyu.
No,No,No,No,Yes,Yes
read above

Uhh, not really. Zard is crazy hard to predict and has way fewer counters than Mimikyu. Even if you're just gonna go by usage and say "this is prolly X because X is more common," Zard wins
Charizard-Mega-X | 15.49289%
Charizard-Mega-Y | 5.68726%
Curse 18.697%
That's 3/4 Charizards that are X and 4/5 Mimikyus that are offensive
People use Charizard as a blanket check to Mimikyu.Also ngl i've used Light Screen Mimikyu but whatever.
Mimikyu is still harder to predict,read reqs convo im lazy to c/p
"has way fewer counters than Mimikyu"
I'll glady go through the VR later to confirm this

How many Pokemon can run Scarf that can't live their own attacks? Not sure exactly what's being asked, but some Scarfers go full 252/252 (especially mixed ones) while others invest a tad bit of bulk. Out of the ~31 viable Scarfers, 5 only run Scarf, all of which are unranked. Scarf gives a large number of Pokemon a completely different set of wins and losses and is very hard to detect at team preview.Scarf is much easier to detect at team preview than both Mimikyu and Charizard,and there are not 31 viable scarfers.Going through the VR up until D rank,I can roughly and with an exaggeration see 12 viable Scarfers,3 of which are more likely to use Scarf that anything else.I really cannot see why you want Mimikyu to stay but you think Scarf is banworthy.
I'm not too serious about this at this point, but #BanScarf

 

[Scraftionite]

Hi I just want to say that I don't play this metagame and have a 0% understanding of what I am about to suggest is actually viable or not, but why not use crobat?

Crobat has access to no miss toxic, taunt, super fang, u-turn, tailwind, defog, haze, confusion ray, and most importantly mean look.

Now I know what your thinking, "Why use this frail bat whose children I murder out of pure frustrated delight, when I could be using any other poison type such as Salazzle, nihelgo?"

The answer is simple: mean look. Mean look is the single greatest gift that lord helix has ever given to a pokemon, whether it by ariados's spider web, or Decidueye's spirit shackle, nothing can compete to the glory that is mean look.



In all seriousness, why not Nihelgo? No miss toxic, plus being able to resist charizard's fire stab moves seems like a good enough reason to be able to stop mimikyu.

Also if mimikyu and charizard have such high usage stats, shouldn't there be some sort for viability ranking or something? I may not play this metagame, but I would like to know basic things such as how viable pokemon are and what is banned without having to go through a few pages just to see that it was unbanned according to someone's edited post rather than an official statement.

Sorry i died reading this but to catch you up to speed, 1v1 meaning only one pokemon is sent from each side. There is no reason to run mean look since you cant switch to begin with.

Id go in depth on nihilego and how it works but thats somewhat unecessary with what the situation is

 

[Nalei]

But anyways, please try to avoid using exaggerated numbers because I WILL fact check that ish.

Allow me to fact check your fact check.

Totals:
Wins: 60.5
Losses: 37
Uncertain: 9.5
Variable: 13

Looks like a bit more than 10 to me...

I said counters, not checks. Something beating Gyarados most of the time doesn't make it a counter. That said, if we're talking about "hard counters," Mimikyu has 15 rather than 24.

Hide

Mimikyu -> Majority L 1
The aforementioned Iron Head set beats this near 100%
Metagross-Mega -> Majority L 2
Curse Gyara beats Metagross
Porygon-Z -> Majority L 3
Specs and Normalium counter Gyarados, mentioned this as one of the 10
Altaria-Mega -> L 4
Yup, another of the 10
Gardevoir-Mega -> L 5
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Gyarados: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It takes a lot, but not necessarily an unreasonable amount of SpD to beat Garde
Genesect -> L 6
Special wins
Jumpluff -> Majority L 6.5 / Majority W 9.5 (Grassium / Non)
Remind me how this beats Taunt+Ice Fang?
Tapu Fini -> L 7.5
Another of the 10
Ferrothorn -> Majority L 8.5
Special wins
Heracross-Mega -> Majority L 9.5
Bounce wins
Kartana -> L 10.5
Special wins
Kommo-o -> L 11.5
One of the 10 although it does lose to Z-Bounce
Pinsir-Mega -> Majority L 12.5
Stone Edge wins
Zeraora -> L 13.5
One of the 10
Blissey -> L 14.5
Sub wins
Buzzwole -> L 16
Bounce wins
Gallade-Mega -> L 17 (idrk what gallade runs, so just assuming it wins)
Bounce wins
Medicham-Mega -> L 18 (Giving you the benefit of the doubt since Rock Tomb basically hard counters)
Bounce wins
Porygon2 -> Majority L 19
Missed this one, my bad. Only offensive beats Taunt Gyara, though
Scizor-Mega -> W 34 / L 19.5 (Taunt / Non)
Taunt and special both win
Tapu Bulu -> L 20.5
One of the 10
Vivillon -> Majority L 21.5
Taunt wins
Keldeo -> L 22.5? (I legitimately don't know)
Bounce wins
Pidgeot-Mega -> L 23.5
Missed this one
Skarmory -> L 24.5
Special wins
Thundurus-Therian -> L 25.5
One of the 10
Ninetales-Alola -> L 26.5
Iron Head wins
Pyukumuku -> L 27.5 (Only because Z-Toxic)
Sub wins
Serperior -> L 28.5
Bounce wins
Abomasnow-Mega -> L 29.5
Special wins
Azumarill -> L 30.5
Band loses to Bounce, BD is 50/50d by Bounce
Barbaracle -> W 56.5 / L 31 (Taunt / Non)
Speedy Taunt
Breloom -> Majority L 32
Bounce wins
Clefable -> Majority L 33
Majority etc
Magneton -> L 34
Jolly EQ
Manectric-Mega -> L 35
EQ wins this
Sceptile -> L 36
SubOvergrow can lose to Taunt
Smeargle -> Majority L 37
Jolly Taunt

I missed two counters - Mega Pidgeot and Porygon2. While 15 vs 12 isn't quite as lucrative as the previous figure, it still stands that Mimikyu is no more, and in fact less, overwhelming in terms of counterability than other top-tier Pokemon.

The point still stands that Mimikyu has set ambiguity to such dangerous levels that it outright requires players to "predict sets", much like the infamous Kyurem-Black of yesteryear.

I responded to this more or less in a previous post so vv

I'll agree with this to some extent, but for a lot of Pokemon, "the play" is pretty consistent against Mimikyu. If you're a Zard, you're always going to break Disguise. If you're a Magearna, you have to assume that it's not Curse so you Iron Defense. Metagross breaks disguise, etc. That's not to say that there's not things that play differently against different sets, especially speed control users being wary of Substitute, but it's not happening to the same degree that you'll see with Charizard.

--

People use Charizard as a blanket check to Mimikyu.Also ngl i've used Light Screen Mimikyu but whatever.
Mimikyu is still harder to predict,read reqs convo im lazy to c/p
"has way fewer counters than Mimikyu"
I'll glady go through the VR later to confirm this

I just did go through that VR and found 9 Zard counters and 15 Mimikyu counters. Mimikyu is easier to predict primarily in that 4/5 Mimikyu aren't curse where for Zard, guessing based on usage is less effective. I'd be happy to respond to some more nuanced prediction tactic but you're not giving me much to work with here-
edit: From reqs convo...
"Mimikyu is the most versatile Pokemon in the metagame,and the amount of viable Pokemon that can counter all of its sets is extremely small (around 5 or 6)"
fifteen skreeeee

 

[The Official Glyx]

Mimikyu -> Majority L 1
The aforementioned Iron Head set beats this near 100%
Metagross-Mega -> Majority L 2
Curse Gyara beats Metagross
Porygon-Z -> Majority L 3
Specs and Normalium counter Gyarados, mentioned this as one of the 10
Altaria-Mega -> L 4
Yup, another of the 10
Gardevoir-Mega -> L 5
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Gyarados: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It takes a lot, but not necessarily an unreasonable amount of SpD to beat Garde
Genesect -> L 6
Special wins
Jumpluff -> Majority L 6.5 / Majority W 9.5 (Grassium / Non)
Remind me how this beats Taunt+Ice Fang?
Tapu Fini -> L 7.5
Another of the 10
Ferrothorn -> Majority L 8.5
Special wins
Heracross-Mega -> Majority L 9.5
Bounce wins
Kartana -> L 10.5
Special wins
Kommo-o -> L 11.5
One of the 10 although it does lose to Z-Bounce
Pinsir-Mega -> Majority L 12.5
Stone Edge wins
Zeraora -> L 13.5
One of the 10
Blissey -> L 14.5
Sub wins
Buzzwole -> L 16
Bounce wins
Gallade-Mega -> L 17 (idrk what gallade runs, so just assuming it wins)
Bounce wins
Medicham-Mega -> L 18 (Giving you the benefit of the doubt since Rock Tomb basically hard counters)
Bounce wins
Porygon2 -> Majority L 19
Missed this one, my bad. Only offensive beats Taunt Gyara, though
Scizor-Mega -> W 34 / L 19.5 (Taunt / Non)
Taunt and special both win
Tapu Bulu -> L 20.5
One of the 10
Vivillon -> Majority L 21.5
Taunt wins
Keldeo -> L 22.5? (I legitimately don't know)
Bounce wins
Pidgeot-Mega -> L 23.5
Missed this one
Skarmory -> L 24.5
Special wins
Thundurus-Therian -> L 25.5
One of the 10
Ninetales-Alola -> L 26.5
Iron Head wins
Pyukumuku -> L 27.5 (Only because Z-Toxic)
Sub wins
Serperior -> L 28.5
Bounce wins
Abomasnow-Mega -> L 29.5
Special wins
Azumarill -> L 30.5
Band loses to Bounce, BD is 50/50d by Bounce
Barbaracle -> W 56.5 / L 31 (Taunt / Non)
Speedy Taunt
Breloom -> Majority L 32
Bounce wins
Clefable -> Majority L 33
Majority etc
Magneton -> L 34
Jolly EQ
Manectric-Mega -> L 35
EQ wins this
Sceptile -> L 36
SubOvergrow can lose to Taunt
Smeargle -> Majority L 37
Jolly Taunt
I missed two counters - Mega Pidgeot and Porygon2. While 15 vs 12 isn't quite as lucrative as the previous figure, it still stands that Mimikyu is no more, and in fact less, overwhelming in terms of counterability than other top-tier Pokemon.

-
Are you actually insane?
We avoid niche sets like Special Gyarados or Fightinium Mimikyu because they're not made to be legitimately good, nor are they used enough for people to even care that they exist. Using this kind of logic effectively equates to "Well I never had any issues with it". The point of suspect tests is to gauge how the thing being suspected affects everyone, or at least the widest representation of "everyone" that we can get not just you. It's for this reason that I excluded super niche/low usage sets like Adrenaline Orb or Taunt Mimikyu when doing my matchups for it.

That said, there aren't any restrictions on what kind of logic is acceptable, or that we even have to apply logic at all, so you do you, I guess. I don't wanna have to run Iron Head Gyarados or Steelium Excadrill on every team to validate that Mimikyu "isn't broken", so I'm voting BAN.

 

[motogp]

Hide

Mimikyu -> Majority L 1
The aforementioned Iron Head set beats this near 100%
As me and Elo Bandit discussed,running too much Speed causes Gyarados to be outsped by faster Mimikyus,while running bulk causes it to lose to bulkier Mimikyus,this is by no means a guaranteed matchuo
Metagross-Mega -> Majority L 2
Curse Gyara beats Metagross
well 252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO favourable for Metagross
Porygon-Z -> Majority L 3
Specs and Normalium counter Gyarados, mentioned this as one of the 10
Altaria-Mega -> L 4
Yup, another of the 10
Gardevoir-Mega -> L 5
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Gyarados: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ever heard of Will-O-Wisp? also +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir-Mega: 308-364 (90.5 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO also Icy Wind straight up wins
It takes a lot, but not necessarily an unreasonable amount of SpD to beat Garde
Genesect -> L 6
Special wins
setting aside the eternal 50/50,252+ SpA Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 236 SpD Genesect: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this set beats Magneton too
Jumpluff -> Majority L 6.5 / Majority W 9.5 (Grassium / Non)
Remind me how this beats Taunt+Ice Fang?
Infestation
Tapu Fini -> L 7.5
Another of the 10
Ferrothorn -> Majority L 8.5
Special wins
Choice Specs Gyarados loses to Choice Specs Ferrothorn,while simply specially invested loses to Occa Berry
Heracross-Mega -> Majority L 9.5
Bounce wins
Bounce is sadly countered by Protect,moving on
Kartana -> L 10.5
Special wins
Kommo-o -> L 11.5
One of the 10 although it does lose to Z-Bounce
Pinsir-Mega -> Majority L 12.5
Stone Edge wins
Zeraora -> L 13.5
One of the 10
Blissey -> L 14.5
Sub wins
not against Choice Specs Blissey
Buzzwole -> L 16
Bounce wins
Same issue as before
Gallade-Mega -> L 17 (idrk what gallade runs, so just assuming it wins)
Bounce wins
252+ Atk burned Gyarados Bounce vs. +1 0 HP / 208+ Def Gallade-Mega: 76-91 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
surprised you don't know about Rock Tomb+Wisp
Medicham-Mega -> L 18 (Giving you the benefit of the doubt since Rock Tomb basically hard counters)
Bounce wins
Not against Rock Tomb+Bulk Up,next
Porygon2 -> Majority L 19
Missed this one, my bad. Only offensive beats Taunt Gyara, though
offensive is the goatest p2 set lol
Scizor-Mega -> W 34 / L 19.5 (Taunt / Non)
Taunt and special both win
Taunt doesn't win,and Special loses to Rain Dance
Tapu Bulu -> L 20.5
One of the 10
Vivillon -> Majority L 21.5
Taunt wins
Keldeo -> L 22.5? (I legitimately don't know)
Bounce wins
Protect still exists but 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 8 HP / 164 Def Keldeo: 272-324 (83.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also Icy Wind is a thing
Pidgeot-Mega -> L 23.5
Missed this one
Skarmory -> L 24.5
Special wins
only if it's faster
Thundurus-Therian -> L 25.5
One of the 10
Ninetales-Alola -> L 26.5
Iron Head wins
Pyukumuku -> L 27.5 (Only because Z-Toxic)
Sub wins
Not against Hail
Serperior -> L 28.5
Bounce wins
252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 240 HP / 40 Def Serperior: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Abomasnow-Mega -> L 29.5
Special wins
Azumarill -> L 30.5
Band loses to Bounce, BD is 50/50d by Bounce
252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Azumarill: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
get your facts right
Barbaracle -> W 56.5 / L 31 (Taunt / Non)
Speedy Taunt
im sure Barbaracle wins somehow but i cba researching this
Breloom -> Majority L 32
Bounce wins
Not against Spore+Z-Snatch
Clefable -> Majority L 33
Majority etc
Cosmic Power
Magneton -> L 34
Jolly EQ
Manectric-Mega -> L 35
EQ wins this
Not against Electroweb
Sceptile -> L 36
SubOvergrow can lose to Taunt
it can,but it doesn't because Z-Frenzy Plant->Frenzy Plant kills
Smeargle -> Majority L 37
Jolly Taunt

would it kill to calc your weird matchups before making an entire post on this
you're trying to save Mimikyu with completely false arguments
dw Osra i gotchu

also,it is very easy to predict what Zard it is considering 1:usage based 75% of the time it will be X 2.there are certain mons that lose to Charizard Y but beat X,so if the team seemingly loses to one of those Pokemon,it is almost certain that it's Y,otherwise it's X

 

[Nalei]

-
Are you actually insane?
We avoid niche sets like Special Gyarados or Fightinium Mimikyu because they're not made to be legitimately good, nor are they used enough for people to even care that they exist. Using this kind of logic effectively equates to "Well I never had any issues with it". The point of suspect tests is to gauge how the thing being suspected affects everyone, or at least the widest representation of "everyone" that we can get not just you. It's for this reason that I excluded super niche/low usage sets like Adrenaline Orb or Taunt Mimikyu when doing my matchups for it.

That said, there aren't any restrictions on what kind of logic is acceptable, or that we even have to apply logic at all, so you do you, I guess. I don't wanna have to run Iron Head Gyarados or Steelium Excadrill on every team to validate that Mimikyu "isn't broken", so I'm voting BAN.

I would certainly argue that special, Curse, and Bounce Gyarados are all legitimately good. While special is a lure set, it lures like over 10 things which is really impressive. Curse beats Lando and Metagross really nicely while still retaining a lot more overall viability than special. Bounce is a no-brainer, you saw all of the stuff it beats, not to mention the minimal opportunity cost.

Mimikyu -> Majority L 1
The aforementioned Iron Head set beats this near 100%
As me and Elo Bandit discussed,running too much Speed causes Gyarados to be outsped by faster Mimikyus,while running bulk causes it to lose to bulkier Mimikyus,this is by no means a guaranteed matchuo

144 HP / 64 Atk / 248 Def / 52 Spe Adamant
+1 64+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 96 Def Mimikyu: 156-184 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 64+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 96 Def Mimikyu: 312-368 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mimikyu Let's Snuggle Forever+Shadow Sneak vs. 144 HP / 248 Def Gyarados-Mega: 290-344 (79 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (2 turns of burn)
Taunt beats anything with too much bulk. Keep in mind this is about Mimikyu being unable to counter Gyarados, not Gyarados being unable to counter Mimikyu.

Metagross-Mega -> Majority L 2
Curse Gyara beats Metagross
well 252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO favourable for Metagross

Again, this is about countering Gyara, not Gyara countering the said mon. If you Hammer Arm pre-mega or Thunder Punch post-Mega you lose. +1 Payback can even kill sometimes Gyara just mispredicts.

252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Gyarados: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ever heard of Will-O-Wisp? also +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir-Mega: 308-364 (90.5 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO also Icy Wind straight up wins

You right

Genesect -> L 6
Special wins
setting aside the eternal 50/50,252+ SpA Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 236 SpD Genesect: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this set beats Magneton too

SpD genesect is a total unset. I thought we were talking about real and reasonable things

Jumpluff -> Majority L 6.5 / Majority W 9.5 (Grassium / Non)
Remind me how this beats Taunt+Ice Fang?
Infestation

Should still lose? As soon as Gyara gets the Taunt off all Jumpluff can do is Infestation and Gyara wins in 2 turns by Ice Fanging twice.

Ferrothorn -> Majority L 8.5
Special wins
Choice Specs Gyarados loses to Choice Specs Ferrothorn,while simply specially invested loses to Occa Berry

Occa unset

Heracross-Mega -> Majority L 9.5
Bounce wins
Bounce is sadly countered by Protect,moving on
Buzzwole -> L 16
Bounce wins
Same issue as before

Protect is absolutely useless unless you're just trying to cteam. Even then, special dos with Hurricane still wins so

Blissey -> L 14.5
Sub wins
not against Choice Specs Blissey

Uhh that can't OHKO and Gyara 2 shots. Definite loss for Blissey, and again, unset

Gallade-Mega -> L 17 (idrk what gallade runs, so just assuming it wins)
Bounce wins
252+ Atk burned Gyarados Bounce vs. +1 0 HP / 208+ Def Gallade-Mega: 76-91 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
surprised you don't know about Rock Tomb+Wisp

Are you sure? Gyarados can Taunt so that Gallade only gets either Bulk Up or WoW in, plus it can DDance.

Medicham-Mega -> L 18 (Giving you the benefit of the doubt since Rock Tomb basically hard counters)
Bounce wins
Not against Rock Tomb+Bulk Up,next

Hmm, yeah, I guess if you have both of those moves.

Scizor-Mega -> W 34 / L 19.5 (Taunt / Non)
Taunt and special both win
Taunt doesn't win,and Special loses to Rain Dance

Rain Dance is complete bullshit, and unless you're HP Electric, Taunt does win

Keldeo -> L 22.5? (I legitimately don't know)
Bounce wins
Protect still exists but 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 8 HP / 164 Def Keldeo: 272-324 (83.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also Icy Wind is a thing

Why isn't that Gyara +1?

Skarmory -> L 24.5
Special wins
only if it's faster

+1 252+ Atk Skarmory Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 124 HP / 232+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 255-300 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pyukumuku -> L 27.5 (Only because Z-Toxic)
Sub wins
Not against Hail

Wrong

Serperior -> L 28.5
Bounce wins
252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 240 HP / 40 Def Serperior: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Why isn't Gyara +1?

Azumarill -> L 30.5
Band loses to Bounce, BD is 50/50d by Bounce
252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Azumarill: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
get your facts right

Ig you could make an Azu designed to counter Gyara, but it's such a ludicrously niche mon already that deviating outside the standard is bound to be bad.

Barbaracle -> W 56.5 / L 31 (Taunt / Non)
Speedy Taunt
im sure Barbaracle wins somehow but i cba researching this

Take it from the godfather of Barbara, it doesn't

Breloom -> Majority L 32
Bounce wins
Not against Spore+Z-Snatch

Not really. Gyara outspeeds. Only way loom wins is if it Snatches on the Taunt and has Protect.

Clefable -> Majority L 33
Majority etc
Cosmic Power

Taunt. Z-Charm is like the only way I see Clef having a chance here

Manectric-Mega -> L 35
EQ wins this
Not against Electroweb

Check your facts, it doesn't learn that

Sceptile -> L 36
SubOvergrow can lose to Taunt
it can,but it doesn't because Z-Frenzy Plant->Frenzy Plant kills

Gyara DDs turn 1. If Sceptile just attacks, Gyara kills it on turn 2.

would it kill to calc your weird matchups before making an entire post on this
you're trying to save Mimikyu with completely false arguments
dw Osra i gotchu

I honestly am feeling so attacked right now. No you!

also,it is very easy to predict what Zard it is considering 1:usage based 75% of the time it will be X 2.there are certain mons that lose to Charizard Y but beat X,so if the team seemingly loses to one of those Pokemon,it is almost certain that it's Y,otherwise it's X

Like what? I can think of would be Lele, Chansey/Blissey, Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Kommo-o and Necrozma. That said, a lot of people aren't going to prep for Chansey/Blissey and some other people are going to think that their Air Slash Charizard Y beats Kommo-o, so we're down to Lele, Gyara, Dnite, Lando and Necrozma. If you're opponent has a Pokemon that has an ambiguous matchup against these, (ie Mimikyu vs literally all of them, Gyara vs Lando, Metagross vs Dnite/Lando/Necrozma, etc) the test basically fails. Additionally, you have to trust that your opponent actually constructed a good team, which you can very rarely do. For all of these conditions to be met is almost non-existant. As for your point 1; usage, I've said it twice already... Against Zard you're gonna be right a bit less than 3/4 times, but for Mimikyu you're gonna be right over 80% of the time.

 

[ryyjyywyy]

also,it is very easy to predict what Zard it is considering 1:usage based 75% of the time it will be X 2.there are certain mons that lose to Charizard Y but beat X,so if the team seemingly loses to one of those Pokemon,it is almost certain that it's Y,otherwise it's X

82% of the time mimikyu is offensive without curse. if you wanna get into movesets that mimikyu has, it has like 3 offensive sets (ghostium, lsf sd, lsf bulk). zardx has will o wisp or flame charge, sd, ddance, belly drum, sub, (even counter even though kinda an unset), for movevariations that beat different things, and it has many different ev spreads, speedy, attacky adamant, physical def, and spd all of which beat different things again. Zardy, having 25% usage, is more common that running into a mimikyu and it having curse. (making it harder to predict that curse mimikyu right there). zardy also has like 3 different sets in will o wisp, flame charge, hp electric gyara check, and counter. (it can also run speedy, spd, or phys def to beat different things). from team preview, zards have like 4 more potential sets than mimikyu (counting its curse sets), and its harder to predict which set, and what zard it is. so no, zard itsnt ez to predict, and definitely not easier than mimikyu to predict.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Y'all nibbas makin' me do too many matchups-

W = Universal Charizard win
L = Universal Charizard loss
U = Uncertain
F = Fast Charizard win
D = Defense-invested Charizard win
S = Special Defense-invested Charizard win
x = Charizard-x (Wx/Lx/Ux/Fx/Dx/Sx)
y = Charizard-y (Wy/Ly/Uy/Fy/Dy/Sy)

Charizard matchups

S Rank
Charizard-Mega-X -> Ux 0.5 / Ly 0.5

Charizard-Mega-Y -> Wx 0.5 / Uy 1

Gyarados-Mega -> Lx 0.5 / Dy 0.5

Mimikyu -> W 1.5 (WoW + Flame Charge and smart plays)


A+ Rank

Dragonite -> Sx 0.5 / Ly 1

Magearna -> W 2.5

Metagross-Mega -> W 3.5

A Rank

Landorus-Therian -> Lx 1.5 / Fy 0.5 (Bulked Y can take a Rock Tomb, but it becomes a 50/50 between Sub or Tomb once they know this)

Porygon-Z -> Lx 2 / Wy 4

Tapu Lele -> L 3 (Spd Lele > Zard)

Zygarde-Complete -> L 4 (Please don't use Swords Dance X unless you really, really, really hate Zygarde)

A- Rank

Greninja -> Sx 1 / Wy 4.5

Lopunny-Mega -> D 1.5

Magnezone -> Wx 5 / Ly 4.5

Slowbro-Mega -> Lx 5 / Wy 5.5 (Don't un-cteamingly use Belly Drum X, either)

Venusaur-Mega -> Ux 1.5 / Wy 6 (X loses, but can make multiple 50/50s with Sub. Air Slash Y wins most of the time)

B+ Rank

Aegislash -> W 7 (Would be Ux if Sub X wasn't a thing)

Altaria-Mega -> L 6 (DD Roost > Air Slash)

Donphan -> Lx 6.5 / Dy 2 (Overall L if you wanna be the Mace critic and say Rockium exists)

Gardevoir-Mega -> W 8

Genesect -> W 9

Golem -> L 7.5

Jumpluff -> Majority W 10 (Flame Charge)

Meloetta -> Sx 1.5 / Ly 8

Mew -> Sx 2 / Fy 1 (Amnesia > Slow Y)

Naganadel -> S 3

Primarina -> Lx 8.5 / Uy 2 (50/50 between Solar Beam/Air Slash vs OO/Encore)

Tapu Fini -> Lx 9 / Uy 2.5 (Rain Dance exists, but so does not immediately Mega Evolving!)

B Rank

Aggron-Mega -> L 10

Blaziken -> Wx 10.5 / Ly 10.5 (Stone Edge)

Chansey -> L 11.5 (Sticking with my guns on SD/BD)

Ferrothorn -> W 11.5

Garchomp -> Majority L 12.5

Heatran -> Majority L 13.5

Heracross-Mega -> W 12.5

Kartana -> D 3

Kommo-o -> Wx 13 / Ly 14

Mawile-Mega -> W 14

Necrozma -> Majority L 15 (Spd 50% Berry)

Pinsir-Mega -> D 4

Sableye-Mega -> Majority W 15

Sawk -> Wx 15.5 / Fy 1.5 (Flame Charge)

Tyranitar-Mega -> L 16

Zeraora -> Ux 3 (Bulk Up + Outrage) / Ly 16.5

B- Rank

Blastoise-Mega -> Sx 3.5 / Wy 16

Blissey -> L 17.5 (Same as Chansey)

Celesteela -> W 17

Crustle -> L 18.5

Diancie-Mega -> L 19.5

Durant -> Majority L 20.5

Gengar-Mega -> U 4

Hoopa-Unbound -> W 18

Swampert-Mega -> Lx 21 / Wy 18.5

Togekiss -> L 22 (Fairium tanks both)

Victini -> L 23 (Psychium)

Volcarona -> W 19

Whimsicott -> Lx 23.5 (Occa) / Uy 4.5 (50/50 between Blast Burn/Air Slash vs Leech Seed/Sub)

C+ Rank

Archeops -> L 24.5

Avalugg -> W 20 (You could probably dispute this one with the sparsely used Stone Edge, but I'll give you this one for free because I'm too lazy to do so myself)

Buzzwole -> W 21

Carracosta -> L 25.5

Deoxys-S -> Ux 5 (You're a madman if you run DD/SD/BD + Flame Charge) / Ly 26

Excadrill -> W 22

Gallade-Mega -> L 26.5 (Rock Tomb is top usage)

Incineroar -> L 27.5

Kyurem -> W 23

Latios -> Sx 4 / Ly 28

Marowak-Alola -> Dx 4.5 / Ly 28.5

Medicham-Mega -> U 6

Pheromosa -> W 24

Porygon2 -> L 29.5 (You must know the set in advance)

Scizor-Mega -> W 25

Tapu Bulu -> Wx 25.5 / Ly 30 (Scarf)

Terrakion -> L 31

Umbreon -> L 32 (You must know the set in advance)

Vivillon -> F 2.5

C Rank

Blacephalon -> Sx 4.5 / Wy 26 (Flame Charge)

Camerupt-Mega -> Majority L 33

Entei -> L 34

Garchomp-Mega -> Ux 6.5 (50/50 between Rock Tomb/Outrage vs Mega/Non-Mega) / Ly 34.5

Haxorus -> Ux 7 (50/50 between Scarf Rock Slide/Outrage vs Mega/Non-Mega) / Ly 35

Hydreigon -> Fx 3 / Ly 35.5

Infernape -> W 27

Keldeo -> Sx 5 / Uy 7.5 (50/50 between Icy Wind/Calm Mind vs Flame Charge / Solar Beam)

Krookodile -> Lx 36 / Wy 27.5

Landorus -> Ux 8 (50/50 between Rock Slide/Earth Power vs Mega/Non-Mega) / Ly 36.5

Latias-Mega -> Wx 28 / Ly 37

Meowstic-M -> L 38 (You must know the set in advance)

Nihilego -> L 39

Pidgeot-Mega -> Lx 39.5 / Wy 28.5

Skarmory -> W 29.5 (Flame Charge)

Relicanth -> L 40.5

Thundurus-Therian -> Wx 30 / Ly 41

Type: Null -> L 42 (You must know the set in advance)

C- Rank

Cloyster -> W 31

Lucario-Mega -> U 9 (50/50 between Rock Tomb/Non-Rock Tomb vs Flame Charge/Non-Flame Charge)

Manaphy -> L 43

Ninetales-Alola -> W 32

Pyukumuku -> L 44 (You must know the set in advance)

Quagsire -> Lx 44.5 / Wy 32.5

Rhyperior -> L 45.5 (AV)

Serperior -> W 33.5

Salazzle -> Sx 5.5 / Wy 34

Suicune -> W 35

D Rank

Abomasnow-Mega -> W 36

Alakazam-Mega -> W 37

Aron -> W 38

Azumarill -> L 46.5 (Sap Sipper)

Barbaracle -> Lx 47 / Wy 38.5

Breloom -> W 39.5

Clefable -> Lx 47.5 / Wy 40

Dusclops -> W 41? (I dunno here. I'll zard the benefit of the doubt)

Magneton -> Wx 41.5 / Ly 48

Manectric-Mega -> W 42.5

Sceptile -> W 43.5

Slaking -> L 49 (Max Speed can hope for a speed tie, at best)

Smeargle -> W 44.5

Stunfisk -> Ux 9.5 / Wy 45 (WoW + Blast Burn)

Talonflame -> W 46 (Flame Charge)

Volcanion -> Sx 6 / Ly 49.5

Totals
Wins = 46 (35 regardless of Mega form)
Losses = 49.5
Uncertain = 9.5
Fast wins = 3
Defense wins = 4.5
S. Defense wins = 6

>>>one mimikyu set beats about as many things as all possible charizard sets combined

What was all this for? All this is just to show how insignificant the differences in results between spreads are. The main differentiating factor you have going for you is the possible alternative Mega stone, but that's really it. Variances in spreads influence little more than 1/10 of the entire VR. In a vast majority of cases, you either immediately win or lose simply because you're using Charizard. With that said, let's look at the matchups where it does matter that you're using specifically X or Y:

X

Charizard-Mega-Y -> Wx 0.5 / Uy 1

Magnezone -> Wx 5 / Ly 4.5

Blaziken -> Wx 10.5 / Ly 10.5 (Stone Edge)

Kommo-o -> Wx 13 / Ly 14

Sawk -> Wx 15.5 / Fy 1.5 (Flame Charge)

Tapu Bulu -> Wx 25.5 / Ly 30 (Scarf)

Latias-Mega -> Wx 28 / Ly 37

Thundurus-Therian -> Wx 30 / Ly 41

Magneton -> Wx 41.5 / Ly 48

Total = 9

Y

Porygon-Z -> Lx 2 / Wy 4

Greninja -> Sx 1 / Wy 4.5

Slowbro-Mega -> Lx 5 / Wy 5.5 (Don't un-cteamingly use Belly Drum X, either)

Venusaur-Mega -> Ux 1.5 / Wy 6 (X loses, but can make multiple 50/50s with Sub. Air Slash Y wins most of the time)

Blastoise-Mega -> Sx 3.5 / Wy 16

Swampert-Mega -> Lx 21 / Wy 18.5

Blacephalon -> Sx 4.5 / Wy 26 (Flame Charge)

Krookodile -> Lx 36 / Wy 27.5

Pidgeot-Mega -> Lx 39.5 / Wy 28.5

Quagsire -> Lx 44.5 / Wy 32.5

Salazzle -> Sx 5.5 / Wy 34

Barbaracle -> Lx 47 / Wy 38.5

Clefable -> Lx 47.5 / Wy 40

Stunfisk -> Ux 9.5 / Wy 45 (WoW + Blast Burn)

Total = 14
Most of these aren't even important matchups against B- and up mons, either. Which just goes to show that most of the time it doesn't really matter which Zard you're using, as long as it's a Zard. Mimikyu, on the other hand...

Offensive (including Curse sets that only/mainly win because of LSF)

Gyarados-Mega -> O 1 (Wow/Bulk Up/bulky EVs)

Zygarde-Complete -> O 2 / C 1.5 (Needs LSF)

Altaria-Mega -> O 4 / C 2 (Needs SD + Play Rough / LSF)

Gardevoir-Mega -> O 5.5

Tapu Fini -> O 6 / C 4 (Taunt beats Mimikyu without any attacks)

Blaziken -> O 6.5 / C 4.5 (LSF)

Garchomp -> O 7 / C 5 (LSF)

Heracross-Mega -> O 7.5 / C 5.5 (LSF)

Kommo-o -> O 8 / C 6

Sableye-Mega -> O 9.5 / C 6.5 (LSF)

Tyranitar-Mega -> O 10.5

Zeraora -> O 11.5

Crustle -> O 12 / C 7 (LSF)

Diancie-Mega -> O 13

Hoopa-Unbound -> O 13.5 / C 7.5 (LSF. Also loses to % if you don't have Hyperspace)

Volcarona -> O 14.5 (SD + Z-move + Sneak)

Buzzwole -> O 15.5 (It can eat LSF + Play Rough with max phys bulk and Bulk Up/Lunge, but setup Mimi is oof)

Kyurem -> O 16.5 (SD > Noble Roar / Noble Roar 50/50s Curse + LSF / Beats %)

Porygon2 -> O 17.5

Umbreon -> O 18 / C 8 (LSF)

Garchomp-Mega -> O 19 / C 8.5 (LSF)

Krookodile -> O 20 (WoW/Bulk Up/bulk EVs)

Landorus -> O 20.5 / C 9 (LSF)

Latias-Mega -> O 21.5 (SD + WoW > Charm + Reflect Type)

Meowstic-M -> O 22.5 (SD)

Cloyster -> O 23.5

Ninetales-Alola -> O 24.5 (C has to 50/50 between Play Rough or LSF turn 1)

Rhyperior -> O 25.5

Breloom -> O 27 / C 9 (LSF)

Magneton -> O 28 (bulk EVs)

Manectric-Mega -> O 28.5 / C 10 (LSF)

Sceptile -> O 29 / C 10.5 (LSF)

Total = 32

Curse(matchups where the passive damage from Curse plays a significant role in the outcome of the battle)

Magearna -> C 1

Donphan -> O 4.5 / C 2.5 (WoW/Bulk Up or Curse + LSF)

Genesect -> C 3 / % 1.5 (Curse wins vs slow Genesect, otherwise needs Thunder Wave)

Golem -> O 5.5 / C 3.5 (WoW/Bulk Up or a carefully timed LSF if using Curse)

Tapu Fini -> O 6 / C 4 (Taunt beats Mimikyu without any attacks)

Kartana -> % 2.5

Durant -> % 4.5

Victini -> % 5.5

Entei -> % 7

Nihilego -> % 8

Type: Null -> % 9

Dusclops -> C 9.5 / % 10.5 (Sub > WoW)

Volcanion -> % 11.5 (Flame Charge + Z-move)

Total = 13
This (mostly the massive 32) shows that distinguishing between Mimikyu sets has a much more significant range of impact on matchups than distinguishing between which Zard set your opponent has.

 

[motogp]

I would certainly argue that special, Curse, and Bounce Gyarados are all legitimately good. While special is a lure set, it lures like over 10 things which is really impressive. Curse beats Lando and Metagross really nicely while still retaining a lot more overall viability than special. Bounce is a no-brainer, you saw all of the stuff it beats, not to mention the minimal opportunity cost.

144 HP / 64 Atk / 248 Def / 52 Spe Adamant
+1 64+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 96 Def Mimikyu: 156-184 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 64+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 96 Def Mimikyu: 312-368 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mimikyu Let's Snuggle Forever+Shadow Sneak vs. 144 HP / 248 Def Gyarados-Mega: 290-344 (79 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (2 turns of burn)
Taunt beats anything with too much bulk. Keep in mind this is about Mimikyu being unable to counter Gyarados, not Gyarados being unable to counter Mimikyu.
keep in mind Bulk Up and Z-Charm exist


SpD genesect is a total unset. I thought we were talking about real and reasonable things.
unlike the rest of the stuff here,no it's not

Should still lose? As soon as Gyara gets the Taunt off all Jumpluff can do is Infestation and Gyara wins in 2 turns by Ice Fanging twice.
Sleep Powder->Sub->Leech Seed->Z-Sleep Powder->Sub->Infestation->Taunt wears off->Infestation (you get the point)

Occa unset
Specs is an unset,occa isn't
Protect is absolutely useless unless you're just trying to cteam. Even then, special dos with Hurricane still wins so
I too love missing also Protect Heracross is viable because most Heracross can't afford losing to Lopunny

Uhh that can't OHKO and Gyara 2 shots. Definite loss for Blissey, and again, unset
Gyara doesn't 2 shot,but Blissey doesn't either so i'll give you that,keep in mind though that Gyarados will Taunt Blissey most of the time and also

Are you sure? Gyarados can Taunt so that Gallade only gets either Bulk Up or WoW in, plus it can DDance.
Will-O-Wisp->Rock Tomb->Stone Edge beats Taunting Gyarados

Rain Dance is complete bullshit, and unless you're HP Electric, Taunt does win
I was in fact talking about special Scizor

Why isn't that Gyara +1?
Well,because Icy Wind exists

+1 252+ Atk Skarmory Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 124 HP / 232+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 255-300 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ill give you this one because I hate Skarmory

Wrong
.

Why isn't Gyara +1?
Because most Serperior carry Substitute

Ig you could make an Azu designed to counter Gyara, but it's such a ludicrously niche mon already that deviating outside the standard is bound to be bad.
This is literally a standard Azumarill set whose purpose is to counter Gyara

Take it from the godfather of Barbara, it doesn't
You said yourself that Barabaracle can defeat Gyarados though.
Not really. Gyara outspeeds. Only way loom wins is if it Snatches on the Taunt and has Protect.
Well,you do need to Snatch the Taunt to win

Taunt. Z-Charm is like the only way I see Clef having a chance here
would be a better option but still,you can just run Choice Specs

Check your facts, it doesn't learn that
Albeit that's a mistake on my part,Manectric can still live an Earthquake

Gyara DDs turn 1. If Sceptile just attacks, Gyara kills it on turn 2.
Sceptile can win by predicting the Taunt

I honestly am feeling so attacked right now. No you!
No u no u

Like what? I can think of would be Lele, Chansey/Blissey, Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Kommo-o and Necrozma. That said, a lot of people aren't going to prep for Chansey/Blissey and some other people are going to think that their Air Slash Charizard Y beats Kommo-o, so we're down to Lele, Gyara, Dnite, Lando and Necrozma. If you're opponent has a Pokemon that has an ambiguous matchup against these, (ie Mimikyu vs literally all of them, Gyara vs Lando, Metagross vs Dnite/Lando/Necrozma, etc) the test basically fails. Additionally, you have to trust that your opponent actually constructed a good team, which you can very rarely do. For all of these conditions to be met is almost non-existant. As for your point 1; usage, I've said it twice already... Against Zard you're gonna be right a bit less than 3/4 times, but for Mimikyu you're gonna be right over 80% of the time
check rosa's post
.

We can stop this pointless argument shall we?

 

[Elements 101]

tbh how did we somehow start talking about charizard in a mimikyu suspect

 

[gyffyrd]

As many of you already know, I am not a fan of mimikyu in 1v1. I'm really not a fan of anything that removes or otherwise reduces a player's skills or strategies, especially when it is accomplished through the use of randomly generated numbers. Fortunately, there are many people in this community who share a similar opinion and as a result we have banned a handful of mons that are notorious for abusing this power. Banning mimikyu is the essential next step for continuing to remain consistent with our banning philosophy and of course for the overall benefit of the meta as a whole. I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say that losing to twave-curse mimi is about as frustrating and discouraging as 1v1 gets.

I really just made this post to say that I finally achieved reqs and after thinking long and hard about it (lol jk) I am without a doubt voting to ban mimikyu from 1v1.