Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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(Oh boy, another poorly written rant with the same things that I've said in the past)

I literally cannot understand why talk of Kyurem-Black's allowance (or lack thereof) in the 1v1 metagame is happening on the thread. This is just like when we did have Kyurem-Black, and we talked about Zekrom for some strange reason. The metagame as a whole is going in the opposite direction. What I mean by this is that we are no longer talking of what is the next thing to unban that would arguably be not-broken in the current tier, but rather, what is currently broken and needs to be dealt with through the means of banning. It has been 4 bans (Tapu Koko, Jirachi, Snorlax, and Mimikyu) since Kyurem-Black's ban. Before we talk about unbanning Kyurem-Black at all whatsoever, we need to change the direction that we are currently heading in as a whole. We must turn around to go back the way we came.
 

Rei

formerly Scholar
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Yes, but those mons restricted teambuilding so much. After theorymoning with myself, Kyurem-B being unbanned is not healthly for the metagame whatsoever, it would cause a more of a restriction in team building like the mons that are currently banned. The direction that 1v1 is currently going is fine, as these bans are removing the broken elements of 1v1, and can afford to be a bit more creative in the teambuilder without the fear of losing to Mimikyu or Tapu Koko. I think we need to wait awhile before trying to unban or ban something to see how a mimiless metagame is, and if anything is currently broken.
 
Yes, but those mons restricted teambuilding so much. After theorymoning with myself, Kyurem-B being unbanned is not healthly for the metagame whatsoever, it would cause a more of a restriction in team building like the mons that are currently banned. The direction that 1v1 is currently going is fine, as these bans are removing the broken elements of 1v1, and can afford to be a bit more creative in the teambuilder without the fear of losing to Mimikyu or Tapu Koko. I think we need to wait awhile before trying to unban or ban something to see how a mimiless metagame is, and if anything is currently broken.
I actually have been scolded many a time for theory-monning, especially on public threads. I've been told its not something we do in 1v1, and to refrain from it as much as possible. It would be fine to have discussion over kyurem-black, just not on the thread I believe from past experiences.
 
Unban Mega Kangaskhan
(Please)

Before you start typing your rage comment, most likely ryy. Here me out.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Generation 6, Pokemon was introduced to Mega Pokemon. These types of Pokemon would prove to very strong in 1v1. But some Mega Evolutions proved to be a bit over powered for the format and were quickly banned. Mega-Salamence & Mega-Kanguskhan. Is Mega-Salamence healthy for 1v1? That's a question for another post. But as for Mega-Kanguskhan it was banned primarily due to seismic toss w/ it's new ability, Parental Bond.
"This Pokemon's damaging moves hit twice. The second hit does 50%" ; (Parental Bond would later be nerfed in Generation 7 to 25% damage on it's second hit.)

After talking to multiple people most of the consensus is for it to be unbanned. Osra, has told me, "[11:17:21] Osra: if you can convince people to go with a complex ban, sure "

So if Deg has stated that Mega Kangaskhan is banned because of seismic toss. If we ban Mega Kangaskhan with seismic toss. We can use it in 1v1.


Deg & JJok3R <3
 

Rei

formerly Scholar
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Thats just retarded. Mega kang has access to power up punch, and can blast any mon away with giga impact / Return that doesn't resist or is immune. It also has priority in Fake Out and Sucker Punch which allows it to break Sturdy and break Ghost-type Pokemon. This shouldnt even brought up because even just thinking about it without stoss this mon is still broken and would be in 1v1.

Not to mention its movepool it gets Rock Tomb, elemental punches, Crunch, and Shadow Claw. It has a hella good movepool + ability and more than likely I missed some of its moves.

This is like me asking for Mega Salamence, it just won't happen.
 
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Morgan

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Complex Ban... GOOO, I'd love to see Mega Kang in the metagame. I don't believe it'd be too Overpowered, even with A combination of Body Slam and Stomp, which makes it a paraflincher, and the Speed Control moves such as rock tomb activating twice. I want to make a chart of how it deals with the VR

I'm going to run something along these lines, an Offensive set:

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite

Ability: Early Bird/Inner Focus/Scrappy

EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Rock Tomb

- Double-Edge/Giga Impact/Chip Away

- Fake Out

- Filler (EQ/Ice Punch/Power Up Punch/Fire Punch)

CharX - W (Fake Out - Rock Tomb - Body Slam/Return/DoubleEdge)

CharY - Depends on Speed (Rock Tomb OHKOs, Blast Burn OHKOs)

MegaGyara - L (DDance lets them win)



Dragonite - W (Fake Out - Double Edge/Return)

Magearna - W (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Magearna: 237-280 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 267-315 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Metagross - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 205-242 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)



LandoT - L (Unless you're a god and run Icy Wind or I guess Ice punch if you're a wimp)

PorygonZ - Depends on Speed (Loss to scarf, win to slower ZCon)

Lele - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Tapu Lele: 296-350 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO)

ZygardeC - W if Ice Punch or Power Up Punch



Greninja - W (Even if sneak, 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Lopunny - L (Unless you go god mode with inner focus, predict the fake out, rock tomb, and Mega Double Edge)

Magnezone - W (EQ/Any Fighting Move)

SlowbroMega - W if Chip Away, L if not

VenusaurMega - L (Synthesis lmao)



Aegislash - W (EQ)

AltariaMega - L

Donphan - W

Gardevoir - Based on Speed

Genesect - L (Unless Fire Punch)

Golem - L (Unless Aqua Tail

Jumpluff - W (Early Bird/Rock Tomb)

Meloetta - W (88+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Mew - Gosh Probably L I don't know how to gauge v Mew

Naganadel - W (252 SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Primarina - W (Can't Double Edge Right away, Fake Out - Coverage - Double Edge)

Tapu Fini - W versus Waterium L versus Tapunium



AggronMega - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 105-123 (37.3 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

Blaziken - Big L

Chansey - L (Charm)

Ferrothorn - L (Unless Fire Punch)

Garchomp - W if Ice Punch

Heatran - W if EQ

Mega Heracross - L

Kartana - L unless Fire Punch

Kommo-o - No

Mawile - have fun

Necrozma - I guess you could run Chip Away + Power up Punch

Sableye - ha

Sawk - ha2

TTar - Run some fighting moves or EQ and Prolly you win

Zera - uhh, run EQ or you're cooked



BlastoiseMega - W

Blissey - W

Celesteela - L

Crustle - L

DiancieMega - W

Durant - L unless fire punch

Gengar - W

HoopaU- W

Swampert - W

Togekiss - W (Inner Focus Lets Go)

Victini - W

Volcarona - W

Whimsicott- W



Archeops - L

Avalugg - W?

Carracosta - L

Buzzwole - L

Deoxys Speed - Chip Away W

Excadrill - W

GalladeMega - L

Incineroar - ?

Kyurem - W if Power up Punch

Latios- W- yes

Alolawak - W if EQ

Medicham-Mega - L (Unless ur a god and they fake out when ur inner focus and ohko)

Mosa- L

Porygon2 - L

ScizorMega - Fire punch or Power up Punch win

Tapu Bulu- Based on Set (L to Scarf)

Terrakion- L

Umbreon - L

Vivillon- W


Blacephalon - W

Camperupt-Mega - W

Entei - W

Garchomp-Mega - W gimme a sec imma get speed comp

Haxorus - based on set (252+ Atk Haxorus Superpower vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 316-372 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Hydreigon - W

Infernape - L

Keldeo - L

Krookodile - W if ice punch or Power up Punch?

Landorus-Incarnate - based on set

Latias Mega - L

MeowsticM - L

Niheligo - W

Pidgeot-Mega - L

Skarmory - L Unless thunder punch

Relicanth- W if Earthquake

Thundurus-Therian - W

Type Null - W if Chip Away or Power Up Punch


Cloyster - W

LucarioMega - L

Manaphy - W

Ninetails- Alola - L

Pyukumuku - L(ol)

Quagsire - L(ol)

Rhyperior - L

Serperior - W

Salazzle - W

Suicune - L


MegaAboma - W

Mega Zam - W

Aron - W

Azumarill - W

Barbaracle - L

Breloom - W

Clefable - Hmmm

Dusclops - L

Magneton: W

Manectric Mega - W

Sceptile - W

Slaking - Set based

Smeargle- W

Stunfisk- W

Talonflame - W

Volcanion - W

Ditto - W

Magnemite- W


VR: 63/117 wins


54% win rate vs VR

Thanks to Pokesartoolcay for helping me with the chart
 
Complex Ban... GOOO, I'd love to see Mega Kang in the metagame. I don't believe it'd be too Overpowered, even with A combination of Body Slam and Stomp, which makes it a paraflincher, and the Speed Control moves such as rock tomb activating twice. I want to make a chart of how it deals with the VR

I'm going to run something along these lines, an Offensive set:

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite

Ability: Early Bird/Inner Focus/Scrappy

EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Rock Tomb

- Double-Edge/Giga Impact/Chip Away

- Fake Out

- Filler (EQ/Ice Punch/Power Up Punch/Fire Punch)

CharX - W (Fake Out - Rock Tomb - Body Slam/Return/DoubleEdge)

CharY - Depends on Speed (Rock Tomb OHKOs, Blast Burn OHKOs)

MegaGyara - L (DDance lets them win)



Dragonite - W (Fake Out - Double Edge/Return)

Magearna - W (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Magearna: 237-280 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 267-315 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Metagross - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 205-242 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)



LandoT - L (Unless you're a god and run Icy Wind or I guess Ice punch if you're a wimp)

PorygonZ - Depends on Speed (Loss to scarf, win to slower ZCon)

Lele - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Tapu Lele: 296-350 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO)

ZygardeC - W if Ice Punch or Power Up Punch



Greninja - W (Even if sneak, 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Lopunny - L (Unless you go god mode with inner focus, predict the fake out, rock tomb, and Mega Double Edge)

Magnezone - W (EQ/Any Fighting Move)

SlowbroMega - W if Chip Away, L if not

VenusaurMega - L (Synthesis lmao)



Aegislash - W (EQ)

AltariaMega - L

Donphan - W

Gardevoir - Based on Speed

Genesect - L (Unless Fire Punch)

Golem - L (Unless Aqua Tail

Jumpluff - W (Early Bird/Rock Tomb)

Meloetta - W (88+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Mew - Gosh Probably L I don't know how to gauge v Mew

Naganadel - W (252 SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Primarina - W (Can't Double Edge Right away, Fake Out - Coverage - Double Edge)

Tapu Fini - W versus Waterium L versus Tapunium



AggronMega - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 105-123 (37.3 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

Blaziken - Big L

Chansey - L (Charm)

Ferrothorn - L (Unless Fire Punch)

Garchomp - W if Ice Punch

Heatran - W if EQ

Mega Heracross - L

Kartana - L unless Fire Punch

Kommo-o - No

Mawile - have fun

Necrozma - I guess you could run Chip Away + Power up Punch

Sableye - ha

Sawk - ha2

TTar - Run some fighting moves or EQ and Prolly you win

Zera - uhh, run EQ or you're cooked



BlastoiseMega - W

Blissey - W

Celesteela - L

Crustle - L

DiancieMega - W

Durant - L unless fire punch

Gengar - W

HoopaU- W

Swampert - W

Togekiss - W (Inner Focus Lets Go)

Victini - W

Volcarona - W

Whimsicott- W



Archeops - L

Avalugg - W?

Carracosta - L

Buzzwole - L

Deoxys Speed - Chip Away W

Excadrill - W

GalladeMega - L

Incineroar - ?

Kyurem - W if Power up Punch

Latios- W- yes

Alolawak - W if EQ

Medicham-Mega - L (Unless ur a god and they fake out when ur inner focus and ohko)

Mosa- L

Porygon2 - L

ScizorMega - Fire punch or Power up Punch win

Tapu Bulu- Based on Set (L to Scarf)

Terrakion- L

Umbreon - L

Vivillon- W


Blacephalon - W

Camperupt-Mega - W

Entei - W

Garchomp-Mega - W gimme a sec imma get speed comp

Haxorus - based on set (252+ Atk Haxorus Superpower vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 316-372 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Hydreigon - W

Infernape - L

Keldeo - L

Krookodile - W if ice punch or Power up Punch?

Landorus-Incarnate - based on set

Latias Mega - L

MeowsticM - L

Niheligo - W

Pidgeot-Mega - L

Skarmory - L Unless thunder punch

Relicanth- W if Earthquake

Thundurus-Therian - W

Type Null - W if Chip Away or Power Up Punch


Cloyster - W

LucarioMega - L

Manaphy - W

Ninetails- Alola - L

Pyukumuku - L(ol)

Quagsire - L(ol)

Rhyperior - L

Serperior - W

Salazzle - W

Suicune - L


MegaAboma - W

Mega Zam - W

Aron - W

Azumarill - W

Barbaracle - L

Breloom - W

Clefable - Hmmm

Dusclops - L

Magneton: W

Manectric Mega - W

Sceptile - W

Slaking - Set based

Smeargle- W

Stunfisk- W

Talonflame - W

Volcanion - W

Ditto - W

Magnemite- W


VR: 63/117 wins


54% win rate vs VR

Thanks to Pokesartoolcay for helping me with the chart
ngl Im questioning the Archeops L, because if you carry sucker punch in that filler place, you actually win even if its band, just because it more often than not gets it in Defeatist Range and then from there Kanga wins so.... not really a Archeops L
 

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
CharX - W (Fake Out - Rock Tomb - Body Slam/Return/DoubleEdge)

CharY - Depends on Speed (Rock Tomb OHKOs, Blast Burn OHKOs)

MegaGyara - L (DDance lets them win)



Dragonite - W (Fake Out - Double Edge/Return)

Magearna - W (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Magearna: 237-280 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 267-315 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Metagross - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 205-242 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)



LandoT - L (Unless you're a god and run Icy Wind or I guess Ice punch if you're a wimp)

PorygonZ - Depends on Speed (Loss to scarf, win to slower ZCon)

Lele - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Tapu Lele: 296-350 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO)

ZygardeC - W if Ice Punch or Power Up Punch



Greninja - W (Even if sneak, 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Lopunny - L (Unless you go god mode with inner focus, predict the fake out, rock tomb, and Mega Double Edge)

Magnezone - W (EQ/Any Fighting Move)

SlowbroMega - W if Chip Away, L if not

VenusaurMega - L (Synthesis lmao)



Aegislash - W (EQ)

AltariaMega - L

Donphan - W

Gardevoir - Based on Speed

Genesect - L (Unless Fire Punch)

Golem - L (Unless Aqua Tail

Jumpluff - W (Early Bird/Rock Tomb)

Meloetta - W (88+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Mew - Gosh Probably L I don't know how to gauge v Mew

Naganadel - W (252 SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Primarina - W (Can't Double Edge Right away, Fake Out - Coverage - Double Edge)

Tapu Fini - W versus Waterium L versus Tapunium



AggronMega - L (252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 105-123 (37.3 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

Blaziken - Big L

Chansey - L (Charm)

Ferrothorn - L (Unless Fire Punch)

Garchomp - W if Ice Punch

Heatran - W if EQ

Mega Heracross - L

Kartana - L unless Fire Punch

Kommo-o - No

Mawile - have fun

Necrozma - I guess you could run Chip Away + Power up Punch

Sableye - ha

Sawk - ha2

TTar - Run some fighting moves or EQ and Prolly you win

Zera - uhh, run EQ or you're cooked



BlastoiseMega - W

Blissey - W

Celesteela - L

Crustle - L

DiancieMega - W

Durant - L unless fire punch

Gengar - W

HoopaU- W

Swampert - W

Togekiss - W (Inner Focus Lets Go)

Victini - W

Volcarona - W

Whimsicott- W



Archeops - L

Avalugg - W?

Carracosta - L

Buzzwole - L

Deoxys Speed - Chip Away W

Excadrill - W

GalladeMega - L

Incineroar - ?

Kyurem - W if Power up Punch

Latios- W- yes

Alolawak - W if EQ

Medicham-Mega - L (Unless ur a god and they fake out when ur inner focus and ohko)

Mosa- L

Porygon2 - L

ScizorMega - Fire punch or Power up Punch win

Tapu Bulu- Based on Set (L to Scarf)

Terrakion- L

Umbreon - L

Vivillon- W


Blacephalon - W

Camperupt-Mega - W

Entei - W

Garchomp-Mega - W gimme a sec imma get speed comp

Haxorus - based on set (252+ Atk Haxorus Superpower vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 316-372 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Hydreigon - W

Infernape - L

Keldeo - L

Krookodile - W if ice punch or Power up Punch?

Landorus-Incarnate - based on set

Latias Mega - L

MeowsticM - L

Niheligo - W

Pidgeot-Mega - L

Skarmory - L Unless thunder punch

Relicanth- W if Earthquake

Thundurus-Therian - W

Type Null - W if Chip Away or Power Up Punch


Cloyster - W

LucarioMega - L

Manaphy - W

Ninetails- Alola - L

Pyukumuku - L(ol)

Quagsire - L(ol)

Rhyperior - L

Serperior - W

Salazzle - W

Suicune - L


MegaAboma - W

Mega Zam - W

Aron - W

Azumarill - W

Barbaracle - L

Breloom - W

Clefable - Hmmm

Dusclops - L

Magneton: W

Manectric Mega - W

Sceptile - W

Slaking - Set based

Smeargle- W

Stunfisk- W

Talonflame - W

Volcanion - W

Ditto - W

Magnemite- W


VR: 63/117 wins


54% win rate vs VR
yeah there are more than a few mons are not Ls for mega kang on that list, in the current meta, based on 1630 usage stat spreads

If Megagross hammer arms to -1 speed, Sucker Punch after turn 1 EQ would beat it, or at least beat offensive variants. And if it doesn't hammer arm but meteor mashes, then its a 50/50, whether kang suckers on the second meteor mash or eqs on their bullet punch

Mew is a W. 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 276-325 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. You're either killing speedy no bulk variants with fake out into giga, or bulky slow variants with fake out into pup into edge/giga.

Mega Venusaur is a W if u run PuP

Mega Altaria is a W if u run Giga Impact

Chansey is W if u run Pup

Mega Heracross is a W if u run Giga

Kommo is a rolling W if u run Giga 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Giga Impact vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fake Out vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 72-86 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

As GenGunder said, Sucker makes Archeops a W

Incineroar is definitely a W, -1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Incineroar: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO, -1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Incineroar: 85-100 (21.5 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO, +1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Incineroar: 417-492 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

P2 is a W with PuP (yes even with Foul Play, 0- Atk Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 221-261 (59.2 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after the +2 attack boost)

Umbreon is a W with Power Up Punch

Suicune is a W from Pup, even with a scald burn, cause Scald is doing nothing even with residual burn damage, so u can just pup again to negate the burn

I'm not quite sure why u think Barbaracle is an L, it is absolutely a W. 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 38-46 (13.3 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 257-305 (90.1 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Power up Punch would really be Kanga's greatest tool without Seismic Toss. Like Flame Charge in Char X, as it does damage, breaks subs, and doubles your attack every time while not letting most physical walls either set up or debuff you, completely invalidating charm Venusaur or Iron Defense Deoxys-Speed. What a broken strategy. Oh yeah and Jolly Mega Kang hits harder than Adamant Mega Lopunny, and it would be the best speed control mon in the whollleee game, and it has better than pseudolegendary bulk, and it has multiple different recovery options, AND it has access to a sleep inducing move ANDDD if it really wanted to it could run headbutt and/or bite and be a pseudo jirachi and flinch 51% of the time. That too

This makes that one, singular Kanga set u mentioned capable of beating 76/117 mons, or 64% of the meta. idk if we're still following that arbitrary "Ban if it beats 60% of the meta", but honestly its still almost 2/3s of every mon in 1v1. That severely limits teambuilding and would easily create an unhealthy Kang-based meta.

Thankfully, we're never going to unban Mega Kang in the first place, because a complex ban would be required, and that easily leads to more hypotheticals of "well lets just unban Dialga without the ability to use items" or "lets unban Primal Groudon but take away Precipice Blades, Earthquake and Rest" or some other silly argument to try and balance a Pokemon.
 
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yeah there are more than a few mons are not Ls for mega kang on that list, in the current meta, based on 1630 usage stat spreads

If Megagross hammer arms to -1 speed, Sucker Punch after turn 1 EQ would beat it, or at least beat offensive variants. And if it doesn't hammer arm but meteor mashes, then its a 50/50, whether kang suckers on the second meteor mash or eqs on their bullet punch

Mew is a W. 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan-Mega: 276-325 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. You're either killing speedy no bulk variants with fake out into giga, or bulky slow variants with fake out into pup into edge/giga.

Mega Venusaur is a W if u run PuP

Mega Altaria is a W if u run Giga Impact

Chansey is W if u run Pup

Mega Heracross is a W if u run Giga

Kommo is a rolling W if u run Giga 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Giga Impact vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fake Out vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 72-86 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

As GenGunder said, Sucker makes Archeops a W

Incineroar is definitely a W, -1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Incineroar: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO, -1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Incineroar: 85-100 (21.5 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO, +1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Incineroar: 417-492 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

P2 is a W with PuP (yes even with Foul Play, 0- Atk Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 221-261 (59.2 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after the +2 attack boost)

Umbreon is a W with Power Up Punch

Suicune is a W from Pup, even with a scald burn, cause Scald is doing nothing even with residual burn damage, so u can just pup again to negate the burn

I'm not quite sure why u think Barbaracle is an L, it is absolutely a W. 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 38-46 (13.3 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 257-305 (90.1 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Power up Punch would really be Kanga's greatest tool without Seismic Toss. Like Flame Charge in Char X, as it does damage, breaks subs, and doubles your attack every time while not letting most physical walls either set up or debuff you, completely invalidating charm Venusaur or Iron Defense Deoxys-Speed. What a broken strategy. Oh yeah and Jolly Mega Kang hits harder than Adamant Mega Lopunny, and it would be the best speed control mon in the whollleee game, and it has better than pseudolegendary bulk, and it has multiple different recovery options, AND it has access to a sleep inducing move ANDDD if it really wanted to it could run headbutt and/or bite and be a pseudo jirachi and flinch 51% of the time. That too

This makes that one, singular Kanga set u mentioned capable of beating 76/117 mons, or 64% of the meta. idk if we're still following that arbitrary "Ban if it beats 60% of the meta", but honestly its still almost 2/3s of every mon in 1v1. That severely limits teambuilding and would easily create an unhealthy Kang-based meta.

Thankfully, we're never going to unban Mega Kang in the first place, because a complex ban would be required, and that easily leads to more hypotheticals of "well lets just unban Dialga without the ability to use items" or "lets unban Primal Groudon but take away Precipice Blades, Earthquake and Rest" or some other silly argument to try and balance a Pokemon.
hmm this is the same talk we had when the community voted no ban on kyu-b in 3 different suspects only for newly assembled council who added 2 outspoken kyu-b protesters, & voted quick ban, against the community which led to outrage and people asking for Groudon and other ubers being talked about for weeks. And it's funny how if you even read my post...which im guessing you didn't since the idea of a complex ban was all that was keeping it banned. Which we easily were able to make a tour for. Which had a 40/60 win rate on mega kang games.

Now to talk about some of the pokemon you've listed for example....
Suicune: Usage: 0.43212%

Umbreon: Usage: 0.24430%
Porygon 2: Usage: 0.73744%
Barbaracle: Usage: 0.02608%


Not even used 1% and still used for a debate? Hmm...So let's have a recap of what you've said in this post. You've stated that AllFourtyOne's set beat 64% percent of the meta. Yet, you back up that claim with showing calculations for Pokemon. A decent percent of the community doesn't use. As stated by the usage for. Yes, some pokemon like metagross are used a lot. I'm not saying that Mega Kang beating it doesn't check a box to be looked at. But if your claim is someone can run giga impact or pup. As well has needs to be bulky or or use other moves to be other pokemon. What is your point you are making. Because pokemon like land-t or gyarados or charizard run different move sets and evs. So, if your statement is "it can do that so it's too op." Why arent we banning those. or any pokemon who isnt straight forward. which im guessing you argument for that will be. "It's a complex ban, and we will never do that." Even though if you read my post which from what is said from yours. You did not. because...It said if we as a community agree to this "complex" ban its fine. But for you to say "We are never going to..." when it was stated, just makes me question if this post is for the soul purpose to voice your opinion. And declare it to be fact...

That's what I believe to be the case. A Moderator (@) in our community declaring their opinion which they haven't provided much of a statement on, as a fact. TDA if it's not to much to ask. If you aren't taking this post of mine as an attack. Please, I'd love to see a detailed response to this Mega Kangaskhan debate with no bias opinions using Sets as of now and predicting what they will be if we unban. Stick to pokemon who would be a problem for it and meta pokemon. Not stuff people rarely run. Because yeah Mega Kangaskhan can beat Beedrill for ex. Doesn't mean that it should be banned.

Just trying to bring us together as a community to look & evaluate a pokemon. With no hate or bias <3 - Joker
 
Since the topic of complex bans is being brought up, I would like to bring up the topic of unbanning totem mimikyu.

Curse mimikyu was not the only reason for ban, but it was the instigator for the suspect/ban. Totem mimikyu has a much shallower move pool and can't get curse along with several other egg moves.

While it can be argued that a well EVed mimikyu beats a large portion of the meta, the same thing can be said about a lot of mons. I do not believe totem mimikyu would be as problematic. As slower bulkier Pokémon can actually handle it.
 
Since the topic of complex bans is being brought up, I would like to bring up the topic of unbanning totem mimikyu.

Curse mimikyu was not the only reason for ban, but it was the instigator for the suspect/ban. Totem mimikyu has a much shallower move pool and can't get curse along with several other egg moves.

While it can be argued that a well EVed mimikyu beats a large portion of the meta, the same thing can be said about a lot of mons. I do not believe totem mimikyu would be as problematic. As slower bulkier Pokémon can actually handle it.
A complex ban won't happen, we should stop the discussion here.
Idk whether this is qualified as complex or not, but it’s not gonna happen.
 

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Now that Mimikyu is banned, there is a potential new threat, formerly lurking in the subconscious of all who plays 1v1, and now possibly threatens the health of the 1v1 Metagame. I am, of course, referring the first pseudolegendary, Puff the Magic
Dragonite
Is it broken? Or is it not?

250px-Giant_Dragonite.png
Dragonite, for those who are not familiar, is an excellent offensive presence in the 1v1 Metagame, with the potential to run either physical or special Z moves to dish out impressive damage. It also has access to the ability Multiscale, which halves the damage taken from the first hit of damage on Dragonite, if it has full HP. This is an excellent ability in a 1v1 environment, but comparatively weaker than the newly banned Mimikyu's Disguise ability, which negated all damage taken on the first attack no matter how much HP you had. Some people have been concerned that, now that Mimikyu is banned, Dragonite will be able to run unchecked in the meta, with little viable counters to stand in it's way. I'm going to compare how Dragonite compares to the rest of the 1v1 metagame, based on the viability rankings, to see if Dragonite has one obviously best set that could potentially overwhelm the meta, but also how many true Dragonite counters exist to beat every set (Z-Outrage, Z Draco, Z Fly, and Z Hurricane, flyinium is the most common), and how many Pokemon Dragonite naturally beats. I have a suspicion on how this analysis will turn out, but I don't know for sure. Here we go:

L means Dnite loses
W means Dnite wins
S Rank
Mostly L, Dragonite loses to bulky Will-o zard, which is one of/the best Zard X set to run. Phys Def char x has trouble with Special Dnite, but Spdef will o zard x beats it all 4 dragonite variants. However, Rock Tomb can give bulky Char X trouble, leading to a 50/50 (Dragon Dance on the rock tomb, or will o wisp on the z move), thankfully Rock Tomb only has 1/4 usage.


Charizard-Mega W, although Zard Y can run a strange bulky will o HP ice set to beat nonbulky Dragonite, but thats inconsistent vs bulky dnite

Gyarados-Mega L, Mold Breaker Outrage/Ice Fang


A+ Rank

Dragonite Inconsistent for obvious reasons

Magearna L, resists both stabs, pain split to heal and break multiscale, fairium z. Hardest counter

Metagross-Mega L, Bulky af and has access to Ice punch for an easy 2hko

A Rank

Landorus-Therian W, DDance turn one covers every option they can do, and special or special into espeed wins

Porygon-Z W, although Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam beats no bulk Dnite, but uh, lol choice specs xddd

Tapu Lele L, Z-reflect beats Physical, just attacking beats special

Zygarde-Complete Mostly W, defensive beats Flyinium Physical


A- Rank


Greninja Basically L, you can run a dnite that tanks a specs gren but its not run on ladder (yet lol)


Lopunny-Mega Basically a 50/50, Dnite loses to ice punch but thats ran 46% of the time

Magnezone Basically W, discounting Zap Cannon shenanigans

Slowbro-Mega L

Venusaur-Mega Mostly W, beats Dragoniun but they need to predict phys or special and run charm


B+ Rank

Aegislash W, adamant Eq 2hkos, modest fire blast almost always 2hkos

Altaria-Mega L

Donphan W, Z into espeed

Gardevoir-Mega L, Will-O-Wisp 82.295%, you trace Multiscale so you don't even have to run bulky

Genesect W, only beats no fire coverage dragonium

Golem W

Jumpluff L

Meloetta W

Mew Mostly W, Dnite tanks fake out into genesis, sets up and kills. You definitely could run a mew that beats dnite, with ice beam fake out max spa modest, but its not run at all rn. Kee Berry can give Mew the edge, but that's not nearly as used as it once was.

Naganadel Inconsistent, leaning to Naga Dragonite can live a specs modest draco meteor with 252 hp evs, 70% of the time. Modest Naga beats nonbulky 100% of the time

Primarina Mostly W, Flyinium will mostly win, unless u miss a hurricane after z hurricane

Tapu Fini Mostly L, Ddance z-fly will win but everything else will not, albeit z-fly is the most common one


B Rank


Aggron-Mega L, physical loses to curse, special loses to mburst




Blaziken W

Chansey Mostly L Loses to Charm, special loses outright, not impossible for dnite but definitely not reliable

Ferrothorn W, fire coverage tbh

Garchomp W, 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 322-381 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heatran W, z into eq

Heracross-Mega Mostly W, speedier variants can outspeed and OHKO with Rock Blast, however most M Hera run bulky

Kartana W

Kommo-o W

Mawile-Mega Hard to say. Really depends on the mawile set and the dnite set facing it, bc max hp mawile tanks any hit from unboosted dnite, and then there could possibly involve 50/50s with sucker and espeed, cause play roughs doing 75 min from max hp dnite, and then if dnite doesn't run speed but mawile does it outspeeds anyway. Or mawile can metal burst on an attack. I would say, Mostly L

Necrozma Stallcrozma wins, 50/50

Pinsir-Mega omae wa mou shindieru W

Sableye-Mega I believe Sableye would win here, probably can tank special and either mburst or cm recover stall, and will o into foul play to beat physical. L

Sawk W

Tyranitar-Mega L

Zeraora Z outrage can def win, but its not run. W


B- Rank


Blastoise-Mega fake out into ice beam L


Blissey Beats special, its a 50/50 for physical (recover on z, or charm their ddance). Mostly L

Celesteela L, should resist both stabs and tank fire moves. Wins with stall

Crustle Consistently beats nonbulk, loses to bulky. As bulky is more common, Mostly W

Diancie-Mega L, non mega diamond storm turn one and you're good

Durant W

Gengar-Mega Basically a 50/50, need to hit hypno then not get first turn wake

Hoopa-Unbound W, can beat uninvested special but thats not run

Swampert-Mega L, can tank and set up vs dnite with curse or yawn it and cheese

Togekiss Naturally inconsistent. You 2hko with dgleam, but dnite beats u with z into espeed, but they can espeed u if they predict air slash to try and stop a z, and then flinch doesn't always happen (supposedly)

Victini W

Volcarona W

Whimsicott Mostly L, can sub or protect on z move if flyinium


C+ Rank

Archeops L

Avalugg L

Buzzwole W, though might be able to beat physical z-outrage with bulk up recovery and ice punch

Carracosta W

Deoxys-S Mostly W, can lose to Stall Deoxys but thats fallen out of favor

Excadrill W

Gallade-Mega W

Incineroar W unless someone proves otherwise

Kyurem Mostly W, can lose to Icium

Latios W

Marowak-Alola W

Medicham-Mega L

Pheromosa Mostly W, loses to Icium

Porygon2 50/50, ice beam on the ddance or recover on their z move

Scizor-Mega W

Tapu Bulu Mostly W, Scarf beats Dragonium

Terrakion W

Umbreon 50/50 Charm has Charm 42.293% usage

Vivillon I believe W, this is like the hardest speedtrap ever but they just espeed and bring the amount of subs u can have down to 1


C Rank

Blacephalon W

Camerupt-Mega W, unless yawn sleep shenanigans

Entei L as most Enteis are rockium. burn into rockium, or snarl if special.

Garchomp-Mega W

Haxorus L

Hydreigon W

Infernape W

Keldeo W

Krookodile W

Landorus W

Latias-Mega Mostly L Charm beats Z-Fly, 50/50s Z-Outrage, cm lets it beat special

Meowstic-M L, charm or confide i believe win

Nihilego W

Pidgeot-Mega Mostly L, featherdance set but probs loses to Special

Skarmory Mostly L, loses to special

Relicanth Beats Dnite 66% of the time

Thundurus-Therian W

Type: Null L


C- Rank

Cloyster L

Lucario-Mega W

Manaphy L, can boost defenses followed up by ice moves

Ninetales-Alola L

Pyukumuku L I believe

Quagsire L

Rhyperior 50/50, metal burst on attack, rock move on set up

Serperior Mostly L, same reasoning as Whimsicott

Salazzle W

Suicune L


D Rank

Abomasnow-Mega Mostly W, beats physical Dragonium I'm pretty sure

Alakazam-Mega W

Aron L

Azumarill W

Barbaracle W

Breloom Mostly W, should lose to sleepseed stall

Clefable Probably L

Dusclops L

Magneton W

Manectric-Mega W



Sceptile W

Slaking W

Smeargle Mostly L, beaten by Dragonium Dnite

Stunfisk man why is this even here W

Talonflame W

Volcanion W


Tldr:
Wins vs 53 Pokemon
Mostly Wins vs 12 Pokemon
Inconsistent/50-50 vs 8 Pokemon (including itself)
Mostly Loses vs 12 Pokemon
Loses vs 32 Pokemon
(I believe I counted that correctly)
  • This makes, if you pool together Wins and Mostly Wins, 65/117 Pokemon, or 55.5% of the Pokemon on this list that are reliably beaten by Dnite.
  • Most of the Pokemon that are used to beat Dragonite are very common Pokemon, like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, whereas most of the Pokemon that lose have low usage. Whether or not that's because of Dnite, I cannot say.
  • Each variation of Z, those being Z-Fly, Z-Hurricane, Z-Outrage, and Z-Draco, basically beat the same amounts of different things, with Z outrage being slightly weaker.
  • Overall, these results prove interesting. In my opinion, since it required 4 different sets to reach that 55.5% win rate, it does not meet the threshold of being "broken", especially when it's still countered by some of the best Pokemon in the game.
Naturally, I may have overlooked certain details/plays in certain matchups. If you catch a slip up respond to this and I'll update the post

My own thoughts on Dragonite is that it is an excellent offensive presence, but besides being able to run both viable Physical and Special sets, it lacks the sort of unfair unpredictability, excess amounts of viable sets, and overwhelming qualities that other banworthy Pokemon had. Kyub had basically 5-6 viable 1v1 sets, the ability to cteam almost all of its counters, and raw attack that allowed it to run barely any offensive EVs and spec all their EVs into bulk. Mimikyu had hyper-Multiscale, a unique Z-Move, immunities to two of the best types in the meta, and two extremely different viable sets, one relying on RNG and the other being an incredibly powerful bulky offense presence in the late game. Dragonite, on the other hand, only can run offensive sets and has a 4x weakness to Ice, both it's stabs are resisted by Steel, etc.

Long story short, Dragonite may be great, but it's much more straightforward and balanced than other threats this meta has seen. It's really not that bad. But hey, just my thoughts. I don't even run Dragonite, so who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Last edited:

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Now that Mimikyu is banned, their is a potential new threat, formerly lurking in the subconscious of all who plays 1v1, and now possibly threatens the health of the 1v1 Metagame. I am, of course, referring the first pseudolegendary, Puff the Magic
Dragonite
Is it broken? Or is it not?

View attachment 141348
Dragonite, for those who are not familiar, is an excellent offensive presence in the 1v1 Metagame, with the potential to run either physical or special Z moves to dish out impressive damage. It also has access to the ability Multiscale, which halves the damage taken from the first hit of damage on Dragonite, if it has full HP. This is an excellent ability in a 1v1 environment, but comparatively weaker than the newly banned Mimikyu's Disguise ability, which negated all damage taken on the first attack no matter how much HP you had. Some people have been concerned that, now that Mimikyu is banned, Dragonite will be able to run unchecked in the meta, with little viable counters to stand in it's way. I'm going to compare how Dragonite compares to the rest of the 1v1 metagame, based on the viability rankings, to see if Dragonite has one obviously best set that could potentially overwhelm the meta, but also how many true Dragonite counters exist to beat every set (Z-Outrage, Z Draco, Z Fly, and Z Hurricane, flyinium is the most common), and how many Pokemon Dragonite naturally beats. I have a suspicion on how this analysis will turn out, but I don't know for sure. Here we go:

L means Dnite loses
W means Dnite wins
S Rank
L, Dragonite loses to bulky Will-o zard, which is one of/the best Zard X set to run. Phys Def char x has trouble with Special Dnite, but Spdef will o zard x beats it all 4 dragonite variants


Charizard-Mega W, although Zard Y can run a strange bulky will o HP ice set to beat nonbulky Dragonite, but thats inconsistent vs bulky dnite

Gyarados-Mega L, Mold Breaker Outrage/Ice Fang


A+ Rank

Dragonite Inconsistent for obvious reasons

Magearna L, resists both stabs, pain split to heal and break multiscale, fairium z. Hardest counter

Metagross-Mega L, Bulky af and has access to Ice punch for an easy 2hko

A Rank

Landorus-Therian W, DDance turn one covers every option they can do, and special or special into espeed wins

Porygon-Z W, although Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam beats no bulk Dnite, but uh, lol choice specs xddd

Tapu Lele L, Z-reflect beats Physical, just attacking beats special

Zygarde-Complete Mostly W, defensive beats Flyinium Physical


A- Rank


Greninja Basically L, you can run a dnite that tanks a specs gren but its not run on ladder (yet lol)


Lopunny-Mega Basically a 50/50, Dnite loses to ice punch but thats ran 46% of the time

Magnezone Basically W, discounting Zap Cannon shenanigans

Slowbro-Mega L

Venusaur-Mega Mostly W, beats Dragoniun but they need to predict phys or special and run charm


B+ Rank

Aegislash W, adamant Eq 2hkos, modest fire blast almost always 2hkos

Altaria-Mega L

Donphan W, Z into espeed

Gardevoir-Mega L, Will-O-Wisp 82.295%, you trace Multiscale so you don't even have to run bulky

Genesect W, only beats no fire coverage dragonium

Golem W

Jumpluff L

Meloetta W

Mew W, Dnite tanks fake out into genesis, sets up and kills. You definitely could run a mew that beats dnite, with ice beam fake out max spa modest, but its not run at all rn.

Naganadel Inconsistent, leaning to Naga Dragonite can live a specs modest draco meteor with 252 hp evs, 70% of the time. Modest Naga beats nonbulky 100% of the time

Primarina Mostly W, Flyinium will mostly win, unless u miss a hurricane after z hurricane

Tapu Fini Mostly L, Ddance z-fly will win but everything else will not, albeit z-fly is the most common one


B Rank


Aggron-Mega L, physical loses to curse, special loses to mburst




Blaziken W

Chansey Mostly L Loses to Charm, special loses outright, not impossible for dnite but definitely not reliable

Ferrothorn W, fire coverage tbh

Garchomp W, 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 322-381 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heatran W, z into eq

Heracross-Mega W

Kartana W

Kommo-o W

Mawile-Mega Hard to say. Really depends on the mawile set and the dnite set facing it, bc max hp mawile tanks any hit from unboosted dnite, and then there could possibly involve 50/50s with sucker and espeed, cause play roughs doing 75 min from max hp dnite, and then if dnite doesn't run speed but mawile does it outspeeds anyway. Or mawile can metal burst on an attack. I would say, Mostly L

Necrozma Stallcrozma wins, 50/50

Pinsir-Mega omae wa mou shindieru W

Sableye-Mega I believe Sableye would win here, probably can tank special and either mburst or cm recover stall, and will o into foul play to beat physical. L

Sawk W

Tyranitar-Mega L

Zeraora Z outrage can def win, but its not run. W


B- Rank


Blastoise-Mega fake out into ice beam L


Blissey Beats special, its a 50/50 for physical (recover on z, or charm their ddance). Mostly L

Celesteela L, should resist both stabs and tank fire moves. Wins with stall

Crustle Consistently beats nonbulk, loses to bulky. As bulky is more common, Mostly W

Diancie-Mega L, non mega diamond storm turn one and you're good

Durant W

Gengar-Mega Basically a 50/50, need to hit hypno then not get first turn wake

Hoopa-Unbound W, can beat uninvested special but thats not run

Swampert-Mega L, can tank and set up vs dnite with curse or yawn it and cheese

Togekiss Naturally inconsistent. You 2hko with dgleam, but dnite beats u with z into espeed, but they can espeed u if they predict air slash to try and stop a z, and then flinch doesn't always happen (supposedly)

Victini W

Volcarona W

Whimsicott Mostly L, can sub or protect on z move if flyinium


C+ Rank

Archeops L

Avalugg Mostly L, beats physical but loses to special if they chip with espeed

Buzzwole W, though might be able to beat physical z-outrage with bulk up recovery and ice punch

Carracosta W

Deoxys-S Mostly W, can lose to Stall Deoxys but thats fallen out of favor

Excadrill W

Gallade-Mega W

Incineroar W unless someone proves otherwise

Kyurem Mostly W, can lose to Icium

Latios W

Marowak-Alola W

Medicham-Mega L

Pheromosa Mostly W, loses to Icium

Porygon2 50/50, ice beam on the ddance or recover on their z move

Scizor-Mega W

Tapu Bulu Mostly W, Scarf beats Dragonium

Terrakion W

Umbreon 50/50 Charm has Charm 42.293% usage

Vivillon I believe W, this is like the hardest speedtrap ever but they just espeed and bring the amount of subs u can have down to 1


C Rank

Blacephalon W

Camerupt-Mega W, unless yawn sleep shenanigans

Entei L actually, as most Enteis are rockium. burn into rockium

Garchomp-Mega W

Haxorus L

Hydreigon W

Infernape W

Keldeo W

Krookodile W

Landorus W

Latias-Mega L, Charm allows it to beat physical, cm lets it beat special

Meowstic-M L, charm or confide i believe win

Nihilego W

Pidgeot-Mega Mostly L, featherdance set but probs loses to Special

Skarmory Mostly L, loses to special

Relicanth Beats Dnite 66% of the time

Thundurus-Therian W

Type: Null L


C- Rank

Cloyster L

Lucario-Mega W

Manaphy Mostly W, beats special

Ninetales-Alola L

Pyukumuku L I believe

Quagsire L

Rhyperior 50/50, metal burst on attack, rock move on set up

Serperior Mostly L, same reasoning as Whimsicott

Salazzle W

Suicune L


D Rank

Abomasnow-Mega Mostly W, beats physical Dragonium I'm pretty sure

Alakazam-Mega W

Aron L

Azumarill W

Barbaracle W

Breloom Mostly W, should lose to sleepseed stall

Clefable Probably L

Dusclops L

Magneton W

Manectric-Mega W



Sceptile W

Slaking W

Smeargle Mostly L, beaten by Dragonium Dnite

Stunfisk man why is this even here W

Talonflame W

Volcanion W


Tldr:
Wins vs 55 Pokemon
Mostly Wins vs 11 Pokemon
Inconsistent/50-50 vs 8 Pokemon (including itself)
Mostly Loses vs 11 Pokemon
Loses vs 32 Pokemon
(I believe I counted that correctly)
  • This makes, if you pool together Wins and Mostly Wins, 66/117 Pokemon, or 56% of the Pokemon on this list that are reliably beaten by Dnite.
  • Most of the Pokemon that are used to beat Dragonite are very common Pokemon, like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, whereas most of the Pokemon that lose had low usage. Whether or not that's because of Dnite, I cannot say.
  • Each variation of Z, those being Z-Fly, Z-Hurricane, Z-Outrage, and Z-Draco, basically beat the same amounts of different things, with Z outrage being slightly weaker.
  • Overall, these results prove interesting. In my opinion, since it required 4 different sets to reach that 56% win rate, it does not meet the threshold of being "broken", especially when it's still countered by some of the best Pokemon in the game.
Naturally, I may have overlooked certain details/plays in certain matchups. If you catch a slip up respond to this and I'll update the post

My own thoughts on Dragonite is that it is an excellent offensive presence, but besides being able to run both viable Physical and Special sets, it lacks the sort of unfair unpredictability, excess amounts of viable sets, overwhelming qualities that other banworthy Pokemon had. Kyub had basically 5-6 viable 1v1 sets, the ability to cteam almost all of its counters, and raw attack that allowed it to run barely any offensive EVs and spec all their EVs into bulk. Mimikyu had hyper-Multiscale, a unique Z-Move, immunities to two of the best types in the meta, and two extremely different viable sets, one relying on RNG and the other being an incredibly powerful bulky offense presence in the late game.

Long story short, Dragonite may be great, but it's much more straightforward and balanced than other threats this meta has seen. It's really not that bad. But hey, just my thoughts. I don't even run Dragonite, so who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As much as I love the effort put into this post, I've gotta disagree on a few spots here.

1. The Matchups:
You got most of them right, but there are a few nitpicky details that bother me:
L means Dnite loses
W means Dnite wins
S Rank
L, Dragonite loses to bulky Will-o zard, which is one of/the best Zard X set to run. Phys Def char x has trouble with Special Dnite, but Spdef will o zard x beats it all 4 dragonite variants (Rock Tomb brings a non-mega zard using WoW to Z-killing range, so it's 50/50 in favor of Dragonite, since WoW accuracy)


Mew W, Dnite tanks fake out into genesis, sets up and kills. You definitely could run a mew that beats dnite, with ice beam fake out max spa modest, but its not run at all rn. (Kee Amnesia wins, so long as you know it's physical or special beforehand)


Heracross-Mega W (Rock Blast kills, so it becomes a fight for speed)


Avalugg Mostly L, beats physical but loses to special if they chip with espeed (Avalanche actually just plain kills, unless you're super bulked)


Deoxys-S Mostly W, can lose to Stall Deoxys but thats fallen out of favor (Stall Deo isn't not used, and wins, so L)


Entei L actually, as most Enteis are rockium. burn into rockium (Needs Snarl for special Dnites, but wins, yes)


Latias-Mega L, Charm allows it to beat physical, cm lets it beat special (Dragonium is a major W)


Manaphy Mostly W, beats special (Manaphy can beat any set, given a well-timed Acid Armor or Calm Mind)


Suicune L (DD + Z-Outrage wins, but is low usage so rip)

2. The Ideology:
While it may not be as unpredictable to go up against as Kyurem-Ban (though still very unpredictable), Dragonite similarly clears out large portions of the metagame and is featured on several balance teams due to how easily splashable it is. The most noticeable aspect of Dragonite is that a majority of its losses come from the upper ranks of the VR, and this is where the difference in ideology comes into play. Is it acceptable that a single Pokemon forces the metagame to centralize around the best mons? I, personally, don't think it is. Kyurem lost to a large portion of the S/A ranks as well, but was still Broken, and I don't believe Dragonite should be treated any differently.
 
Now that Mimikyu is banned, there is a potential new threat, formerly lurking in the subconscious of all who plays 1v1, and now possibly threatens the health of the 1v1 Metagame. I am, of course, referring the first pseudolegendary, Puff the Magic
Dragonite
Is it broken? Or is it not?

View attachment 141348
Dragonite, for those who are not familiar, is an excellent offensive presence in the 1v1 Metagame, with the potential to run either physical or special Z moves to dish out impressive damage. It also has access to the ability Multiscale, which halves the damage taken from the first hit of damage on Dragonite, if it has full HP. This is an excellent ability in a 1v1 environment, but comparatively weaker than the newly banned Mimikyu's Disguise ability, which negated all damage taken on the first attack no matter how much HP you had. Some people have been concerned that, now that Mimikyu is banned, Dragonite will be able to run unchecked in the meta, with little viable counters to stand in it's way. I'm going to compare how Dragonite compares to the rest of the 1v1 metagame, based on the viability rankings, to see if Dragonite has one obviously best set that could potentially overwhelm the meta, but also how many true Dragonite counters exist to beat every set (Z-Outrage, Z Draco, Z Fly, and Z Hurricane, flyinium is the most common), and how many Pokemon Dragonite naturally beats. I have a suspicion on how this analysis will turn out, but I don't know for sure. Here we go:

L means Dnite loses
W means Dnite wins
S Rank
Mostly L, Dragonite loses to bulky Will-o zard, which is one of/the best Zard X set to run. Phys Def char x has trouble with Special Dnite, but Spdef will o zard x beats it all 4 dragonite variants. However, Rock Tomb can give bulky Char X trouble, leading to a 50/50 (Dragon Dance on the rock tomb, or will o wisp on the z move), thankfully Rock Tomb only has 1/4 usage.


Charizard-Mega W, although Zard Y can run a strange bulky will o HP ice set to beat nonbulky Dragonite, but thats inconsistent vs bulky dnite

Gyarados-Mega L, Mold Breaker Outrage/Ice Fang


A+ Rank

Dragonite Inconsistent for obvious reasons

Magearna L, resists both stabs, pain split to heal and break multiscale, fairium z. Hardest counter

Metagross-Mega L, Bulky af and has access to Ice punch for an easy 2hko

A Rank

Landorus-Therian W, DDance turn one covers every option they can do, and special or special into espeed wins

Porygon-Z W, although Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam beats no bulk Dnite, but uh, lol choice specs xddd

Tapu Lele L, Z-reflect beats Physical, just attacking beats special

Zygarde-Complete Mostly W, defensive beats Flyinium Physical


A- Rank


Greninja Basically L, you can run a dnite that tanks a specs gren but its not run on ladder (yet lol)


Lopunny-Mega Basically a 50/50, Dnite loses to ice punch but thats ran 46% of the time

Magnezone Basically W, discounting Zap Cannon shenanigans

Slowbro-Mega L

Venusaur-Mega Mostly W, beats Dragoniun but they need to predict phys or special and run charm


B+ Rank

Aegislash W, adamant Eq 2hkos, modest fire blast almost always 2hkos

Altaria-Mega L

Donphan W, Z into espeed

Gardevoir-Mega L, Will-O-Wisp 82.295%, you trace Multiscale so you don't even have to run bulky

Genesect W, only beats no fire coverage dragonium

Golem W

Jumpluff L

Meloetta W

Mew Mostly W, Dnite tanks fake out into genesis, sets up and kills. You definitely could run a mew that beats dnite, with ice beam fake out max spa modest, but its not run at all rn. Kee Berry can give Mew the edge, but that's not nearly as used as it once was.

Naganadel Inconsistent, leaning to Naga Dragonite can live a specs modest draco meteor with 252 hp evs, 70% of the time. Modest Naga beats nonbulky 100% of the time

Primarina Mostly W, Flyinium will mostly win, unless u miss a hurricane after z hurricane

Tapu Fini Mostly L, Ddance z-fly will win but everything else will not, albeit z-fly is the most common one


B Rank


Aggron-Mega L, physical loses to curse, special loses to mburst




Blaziken W

Chansey Mostly L Loses to Charm, special loses outright, not impossible for dnite but definitely not reliable

Ferrothorn W, fire coverage tbh

Garchomp W, 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 322-381 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heatran W, z into eq

Heracross-Mega Mostly W, speedier variants can outspeed and OHKO with Rock Blast, however most M Hera run bulky

Kartana W

Kommo-o W

Mawile-Mega Hard to say. Really depends on the mawile set and the dnite set facing it, bc max hp mawile tanks any hit from unboosted dnite, and then there could possibly involve 50/50s with sucker and espeed, cause play roughs doing 75 min from max hp dnite, and then if dnite doesn't run speed but mawile does it outspeeds anyway. Or mawile can metal burst on an attack. I would say, Mostly L

Necrozma Stallcrozma wins, 50/50

Pinsir-Mega omae wa mou shindieru W

Sableye-Mega I believe Sableye would win here, probably can tank special and either mburst or cm recover stall, and will o into foul play to beat physical. L

Sawk W

Tyranitar-Mega L

Zeraora Z outrage can def win, but its not run. W


B- Rank


Blastoise-Mega fake out into ice beam L


Blissey Beats special, its a 50/50 for physical (recover on z, or charm their ddance). Mostly L

Celesteela L, should resist both stabs and tank fire moves. Wins with stall

Crustle Consistently beats nonbulk, loses to bulky. As bulky is more common, Mostly W

Diancie-Mega L, non mega diamond storm turn one and you're good

Durant W

Gengar-Mega Basically a 50/50, need to hit hypno then not get first turn wake

Hoopa-Unbound W, can beat uninvested special but thats not run

Swampert-Mega L, can tank and set up vs dnite with curse or yawn it and cheese

Togekiss Naturally inconsistent. You 2hko with dgleam, but dnite beats u with z into espeed, but they can espeed u if they predict air slash to try and stop a z, and then flinch doesn't always happen (supposedly)

Victini W

Volcarona W

Whimsicott Mostly L, can sub or protect on z move if flyinium


C+ Rank

Archeops L

Avalugg L

Buzzwole W, though might be able to beat physical z-outrage with bulk up recovery and ice punch

Carracosta W

Deoxys-S Mostly W, can lose to Stall Deoxys but thats fallen out of favor

Excadrill W

Gallade-Mega W

Incineroar W unless someone proves otherwise

Kyurem Mostly W, can lose to Icium

Latios W

Marowak-Alola W

Medicham-Mega L

Pheromosa Mostly W, loses to Icium

Porygon2 50/50, ice beam on the ddance or recover on their z move

Scizor-Mega W

Tapu Bulu Mostly W, Scarf beats Dragonium

Terrakion W

Umbreon 50/50 Charm has Charm 42.293% usage

Vivillon I believe W, this is like the hardest speedtrap ever but they just espeed and bring the amount of subs u can have down to 1


C Rank

Blacephalon W

Camerupt-Mega W, unless yawn sleep shenanigans

Entei L as most Enteis are rockium. burn into rockium, or snarl if special.

Garchomp-Mega W

Haxorus L

Hydreigon W

Infernape W

Keldeo W

Krookodile W

Landorus W

Latias-Mega Mostly L Charm beats Z-Fly, 50/50s Z-Outrage, cm lets it beat special

Meowstic-M L, charm or confide i believe win

Nihilego W

Pidgeot-Mega Mostly L, featherdance set but probs loses to Special

Skarmory Mostly L, loses to special

Relicanth Beats Dnite 66% of the time

Thundurus-Therian W

Type: Null L


C- Rank

Cloyster L

Lucario-Mega W

Manaphy L, can boost defenses followed up by ice moves

Ninetales-Alola L

Pyukumuku L I believe

Quagsire L

Rhyperior 50/50, metal burst on attack, rock move on set up

Serperior Mostly L, same reasoning as Whimsicott

Salazzle W

Suicune L


D Rank

Abomasnow-Mega Mostly W, beats physical Dragonium I'm pretty sure

Alakazam-Mega W

Aron L

Azumarill W

Barbaracle W

Breloom Mostly W, should lose to sleepseed stall

Clefable Probably L

Dusclops L

Magneton W

Manectric-Mega W



Sceptile W

Slaking W

Smeargle Mostly L, beaten by Dragonium Dnite

Stunfisk man why is this even here W

Talonflame W

Volcanion W


Tldr:
Wins vs 53 Pokemon
Mostly Wins vs 12 Pokemon
Inconsistent/50-50 vs 8 Pokemon (including itself)
Mostly Loses vs 12 Pokemon
Loses vs 32 Pokemon
(I believe I counted that correctly)
  • This makes, if you pool together Wins and Mostly Wins, 65/117 Pokemon, or 55.5% of the Pokemon on this list that are reliably beaten by Dnite.
  • Most of the Pokemon that are used to beat Dragonite are very common Pokemon, like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, whereas most of the Pokemon that lose have low usage. Whether or not that's because of Dnite, I cannot say.
  • Each variation of Z, those being Z-Fly, Z-Hurricane, Z-Outrage, and Z-Draco, basically beat the same amounts of different things, with Z outrage being slightly weaker.
  • Overall, these results prove interesting. In my opinion, since it required 4 different sets to reach that 55.5% win rate, it does not meet the threshold of being "broken", especially when it's still countered by some of the best Pokemon in the game.
Naturally, I may have overlooked certain details/plays in certain matchups. If you catch a slip up respond to this and I'll update the post

My own thoughts on Dragonite is that it is an excellent offensive presence, but besides being able to run both viable Physical and Special sets, it lacks the sort of unfair unpredictability, excess amounts of viable sets, and overwhelming qualities that other banworthy Pokemon had. Kyub had basically 5-6 viable 1v1 sets, the ability to cteam almost all of its counters, and raw attack that allowed it to run barely any offensive EVs and spec all their EVs into bulk. Mimikyu had hyper-Multiscale, a unique Z-Move, immunities to two of the best types in the meta, and two extremely different viable sets, one relying on RNG and the other being an incredibly powerful bulky offense presence in the late game. Dragonite, on the other hand, only can run offensive sets and has a 4x weakness to Ice, both it's stabs are resisted by Steel, etc.

Long story short, Dragonite may be great, but it's much more straightforward and balanced than other threats this meta has seen. It's really not that bad. But hey, just my thoughts. I don't even run Dragonite, so who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At this point I say we hold off until, "Lets Go", comes out to talk about bans/suspects. Let's just circle back to it later :3
 
Still waiting for an answer...

Before we dive into what other Pokemon are broken or not in the 1v1 meta, I am hoping we can put the sleep issue to rest.
Quick-bans:

For a long time, I was going to list out all the Mega-Gengar match ups that are dependent upon the RNG of sleep. Thankfully, MaceMaster did that and more in his sheet here.

Turns out Mace may have edited his sheet but I happen to have a copy open prior to and copy/pasted it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fvx2n1haX3BgBu4pU7h3dZB7D4rSibzWUc0p4hhxiSw/edit?usp=sharing

I will bring in the Smogon tiering policy and the extended version (which is mentioned on the first thread, so I consider this applicable beyond just OU) once again to examine what the spreadsheet reveals to us.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
  • This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
  • This can be external factors; think Endless Battle Clause, where the determining factor became internet connection over playing skill.
  • This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

Based on the bold portion of the definition of uncompetitive, Mega-Gengar and 6 other mons fit the exact definition of Uncompetitive as over 50% of their match ups emphasize the result of RNG.
IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.

A.) This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
B.) This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much" and we removed them.
C.) "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what he does. In relation to the latter part, "too much" also refers to factors that nearly completely take a game out of the player's hands and turn the PRIMARY point of the game to wait for the RNG.
1.) OHKO moves are an example of the "too much" portion. With a 30% success rate, the other player will be put in an immediate disadvantage by the OHKO move user a considerable amount of the time no matter what he does.
2.) Moody and SwagPlay are examples of the "taking the game out of a player's hands". Both turn the PRIMARY point of the game waiting to see what the RNG spits out.

Based on the bold portion regarding probability management, sleep abusers do exactly what Moody & Swagger (both banned in 1v1) do in having the players wait to see what RNG occurs.


If someone has a counter-argument stating why sleep inducing moves do not fit these definitions of banable mechanics, I have not yet seen it. I am also unclear as to why we have been told before that banning Sleep in general is not an acceptable solution in 1v1.

Assuming we cannot ban Sleep, then at least these 7 mons need to be removed from the metagame by Smogon definition. If we continue allowing these mons - then it opens discussion for what rules we should follow in the meta (OHKO clause, species clause, Moody clause, etc.), why we follow them, who gets to decide what we follow, and why they get to decide....

- Mimikyu is also a problem
In this previous post, it was mentioned that sleep inducing moves directly fit the definitions of banable mechanics. At this time, I have still yet to see a post that describes how they do not meet the definition of banable.

The most coherent pro-sleep argument I have encountered is that sleep is a reliable enough strategy to provide an option for winning in 1v1. The diversity in strategy it provides is a good thing as it opens up team-building. The fact that sleep provides additional diversity is not wrong and more diversity is certainly better than less - assuming the playing ground remains fair.

There are a couple issues with this argument, but I will only address 1. Sleep is a reliable enough strategy, but is it a "fair" strategy that we should allow? Again, we have to rely on Smogon definitions to define & regulate what is considered fair since everyone probably has at least a slightly different opinion. Once more, sleep moves directly violate these definitions in the 1v1 meta. Therefore, I am awaiting a clear decision that either sleep is banned, sleep doesn't violate Smogon rules (please provide coherent argument), or we do not abide by Smogon rules (for some reason).

- Can we make separate types of threads so I am not posting this next to one-liners, complex bans, and mentions of Mega-Kangaskhan?
 
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