Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Nalei]

> The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

But the conversation is really about Z-Detect, a move which brings some viability to the low-ranked Pokemon mentioned earlier. While it's technically true that no pokemon with Detect lacks Protect, the moves still play differently in a Z-Crystal based meta. The base move != the Z-move.

What we're trying to get at here is that Detect has no redeeming value. Z moves that boost evasion but have base moves that bring value to the metagame are debatable, but Z moves that boost evasion and have no metagame value as a base move should be pretty non-controversially a negative presence. This (supposed) non-controversy was largely why it happened so quickly (a quickban vs suspect). Magnet Rise, however, does bring positive elements into the metagame and thus warrants discussion and not a quickban. I apologize for the lack of communication, and speaking for myself at least, I'll do my best to communicate with you in the future.

 

[Elo Bandit]

What we're trying to get at here is that Detect has no redeeming value.

What I'm trying to get at is that Detect does have a redeeming value. If a Pokemon can use the move and find victory >75% of the time against a threat that it otherwise loses to, that's a legitimate usage of the move. My go-to example here is Sceptile, with Z-Detect/Sub/Seed it is able to defeat slower (<120 base) threats that would otherwise survive a hit and 1-shot it.

Z moves that boost evasion but have base moves that bring value to the metagame are debatable, but Z moves that boost evasion and have no metagame value as a base move should be pretty non-controversially a negative presence.

Detect having no value over Protect as a base move does not change the fact that the Z-Move offers meaningful utility to a variety of Pokemon.

This (supposed) non-controversy was largely why it happened so quickly (a quickban vs suspect).

Never assume a quick-ban won't cause controversy. Discussion and meaningful dissent are absolutely essential before making changes of this nature.

Magnet Rise, however, does bring positive elements into the metagame and thus warrants discussion and not a quickban.

Both Magnet Rise and Detect have positive elements defined by the ability to win otherwise unwinnable matchups a reasonable majority of the time. Neither should be quickbanned.

I apologize for the lack of communication, and speaking for myself at least, I'll do my best to communicate with you in the future.

We greatly appreciate it, since we all care about the direction of the metagame.

 

[dom]

Serious thoughts: This is really stupid. Z-Evasion honestly has not proven itself to be a viable strategy. Like, it's not good, and there's a reason it sees pretty much no tournament use. Z-Evasion, when using it, is something that the whole set relies on, and not well. Since Z-Moves have perfect accuracy, it's honesty ineffective. All it does is cheese a few games, and not well. There's a reason nobody but ladder idiots use it, and they don't do it well.

The second we see z-detect riolu sweeping the nation, we'll have a different situation on our hands. However, +1 Evasion boosting hasn't proven itself to be anything but gimmickly and unreliable, and something nobody good uses.

Side note: The whole "detect adds nothing to a metagame with protect which it's outclassed by" way of thinking is just wrong? Why are we acting like banning Detect of all things has any sort of precedent, especially with a weird and flawed way of justifying it. Detect isn't just a "worse Protect", it's a move that should be banned if it's absolutely broken or uncompetitive, which it's neither of. You can use Protect and Detect on the same set you know. Detect has a niche, no matter how small, and it should be considered when making stupidly rash tiering decisions.

Can the council actually get to things that actually matter like z-moves in general, dragonite, or freeing rachi? Jeeeeez

 

[ryyjyywyy]

Hello 1v1 people!

The council detected something on our radars recently that required attention, so we had a vote that resulted in Quickbanning Detect.

The reasoning behind this is of course that its Z-Effect boosts Evasion but Detect differentiates from other Z-Status moves because of 2 qualities.
1. It's free to set up because it protects the user
2. The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

Edit: I forgot to explain why boosting evasion is bad because I deemed it trivial.
Evasion is banned by Evasion Clause, and we seek to eliminate all instances of it where banning doesn't remove anything of value from the metagame.

retarded ass decsion, zdetect isnt really haxy (look at elo bandit's post), and it does have meaningful value outside of being a worse protect since the zmove isnt useless.

 

[Nuclearstomp]

Here's my (probably bad) 2-cents: It really seems like you're trying to ban z-detect to save the one really potentially annoying mon that uses it: Deo-S. While I can admit I really hate the z-moves that boost evasion, banning an entire move just to save a single pokemon isn't really worth it. If this is to save Deo-S, skip the trouble and suspect that instead. If this ISN'T to save Deo-S... then just don't? At least take a look at z-detect normally instead of quick banning it and see what can actually abuse it. You might find that

Spoiler

Deo-S

some pokemon abuse it more than any others possibly could.

Spoiler

Also yes I am extremely biased about Deo-S, damn thing was annoying as hell when I played 1v1.

 

[DEG]

We are not looking into making less viable mons more viable. This is what the suspect philosophy says.

No reason to complain at all, 1) Z-detect falls into evasion clause. 2) Brings literally NOTHING positivity, but has a negative side.

 

[Kaif]

Hello 1v1 people!

The council detected something on our radars recently that required attention, so we had a vote that resulted in Quickbanning Detect.

The reasoning behind this is of course that its Z-Effect boosts Evasion but Detect differentiates from other Z-Status moves because of 2 qualities.
1. It's free to set up because it protects the user
2. The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

Edit: I forgot to explain why boosting evasion is bad because I deemed it trivial.
Evasion is banned by Evasion Clause, and we seek to eliminate all instances of it where banning doesn't remove anything of value from the metagame.

First of all, this is because some random ladder thug lost to it FeelsWeirdMan

We are not looking into making less viable mons more viable. This is what the suspect philosophy says.

No reason to complain at all, 1) Z-detect falls into evasion clause. 2) Brings literally NOTHING positivity, but has a negative side.

it's literally a fucking gimmick

 

[Camden]

I take issue with the way this ban was performed. Council votes or suspects, either one is fine. If you guys are against suspects, then you have to inform people of an upcoming council vote to allow open discussion. Quick-banning something this late into a metagame's existence is unacceptable. This strategy has been a part of the meta for quite some time and should be dealt with like anything else. Just because it deals with evasion that doesn't automatically mean it should be quick-banned, especially because of the dynamic of 1v1 and the overall importance of odds in the metagame. Z-Detect doesn't fit under the global definition of Evasion Clause, and you are by all means welcome to deal with it, but this was not the right way to go about it. I'm once again disappointed in a council that ignores its playerbase to push their own interests.

 

[DEG]

I take issue with the way this ban was performed. Council votes or suspects, either one is fine. If you guys are against suspects, then you have to inform people of an upcoming council vote to allow open discussion. Quick-banning something this late into a metagame's existence is unacceptable. This strategy has been a part of the meta for quite some time and should be dealt with like anything else. Just because it deals with evasion that doesn't automatically mean it should be quick-banned, especially because of the dynamic of 1v1 and the overall importance of odds in the metagame. Z-Detect doesn't fit under the global definition of Evasion Clause, and you are by all means welcome to deal with it, but this was not the right way to go about it. I'm once again disappointed in a council that ignores its playerbase to push their own interests.

It does fall under the evasion clause. We are working for the own good of the metagame by eliminating dumb strategies, suspecting this would be time wasting while we can suspect more important things which should be coming soon tm. 1v1 was victim of an unban decision, ik it was late but what were aiming for is re banning Z+Evasion cause t hella dumb. We ain't doing what's on our agenda, we're working for a balanced metagame. I bet no one was heavily affected by the ban of detect and that's just complaining for the sake or complaining.

 

[The Official Glyx]

It does fall under the evasion clause. We are working for the own good of the metagame by eliminating dumb strategies, suspecting this would be time wasting while we can suspect more important things which should be coming soon tm. 1v1 was victim of an unban decision, ik it was late but what were aiming for is re banning Z+Evasion cause t hella dumb. We ain't doing what's on our agenda, we're working for a balanced metagame. I bet no one was heavily affected by the ban of detect and that's just complaining for the sake or complaining.

 

[Kaif]

It does fall under the evasion clause. We are working for the own good of the metagame by eliminating dumb strategies, suspecting this would be time wasting while we can suspect more important things which should be coming soon tm. 1v1 was victim of an unban decision, ik it was late but what were aiming for is re banning Z+Evasion cause t hella dumb. We ain't doing what's on our agenda, we're working for a balanced metagame. I bet no one was heavily affected by the ban of detect and that's just complaining for the sake or complaining.

ur banning z-evasion because it wins 1 out of 10 games....nice fucking metagame

I've been things like "evasion clause is z-detect" and "no it's not" so here

Smogon Clauses

https://www.smogon.com/tournaments/tour/rules#clauses

Evasion Clause
A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.

Now, let's look at WHY z-detect should be banned or suspected

1. Uncompetitive and unhealthy (massive rng mechanic)
2. Stupid strat that is basically bm to the opponent

Why z-detect quickban was stupid

1. Was not even announced for discussion besides low ladder players ranting in the 1v1 room
2. No suspect.
3.

I take issue with the way this ban was performed. Council votes or suspects, either one is fine. If you guys are against suspects, then you have to inform people of an upcoming council vote to allow open discussion. Quick-banning something this late into a metagame's existence is unacceptable. This strategy has been a part of the meta for quite some time and should be dealt with like anything else. Just because it deals with evasion that doesn't automatically mean it should be quick-banned, especially because of the dynamic of 1v1 and the overall importance of odds in the metagame. Z-Detect doesn't fit under the global definition of Evasion Clause, and you are by all means welcome to deal with it, but this was not the right way to go about it. I'm once again disappointed in a council that ignores its playerbase to push their own interests.

EVERYTHING that quote said here

 

[motogp]

ur banning z-evasion because it wins 1 out of 10 games....nice fucking metagame

I've been things like "evasion clause is z-detect" and "no it's not" so here

Smogon Clauses

https://www.smogon.com/tournaments/tour/rules#clauses

Evasion Clause
A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.

Now, let's look at WHY z-detect should be banned or suspected

1. Uncompetitive and unhealthy (massive rng mechanic)
2. Stupid strat that is basically bm to the opponent

Why z-detect quickban was stupid

1. Was not even announced for discussion besides low ladder players ranting in the 1v1 room
2. No suspect.
3.

EVERYTHING that quote said here

I want to point out 2 things.

1.About sleep,one of the main arguments was the lack of usage,but here we are banning Detect,a move whose only relevant mention in usage stats is 12% usage one 1 Pokemon.

2."If 4 pokemon is broken with a move/mechanic,we'll ban the pokemon,not the move/mechanic"
So,why was Detect banned instead of Deoxys-Speed but not Yawn,Sleep Podwer,Hypnosis instead of Snorlax?
(Not even gonna talk about Normalium-Z at this point,just this)

I love it when the council complains about receiving negative feedback on a controversial decision,then procceeds to repeat it
(Kyurem-Black and Jirachi quickban-Detect quickban)

 

[Freddy Kyogre]

(I already said this elsewhere but...)
Detect when used as a Z-Move raises evasion. While the strategy of Z-Detect might not be inherently broken in itself or used extremely often, we do have to admit that it is gimmicky. Gimmicks are fine in the metagame as well have seen so far, where we have kept smeargle and fear (bad examples but you get the point; gimmicks still exist). The problem is, Z-Detect's gimmick uses evasion. Evasion has been shown as uncompetitive through pre-existing bans, such as the Evasion clause and our own metagame's (what I like to call) "Accuracy Lowing Clause," which bans moves that lower accuracy. Detect not only is one way of violating these preexisting rules put in place, but also brings nothing else to the metagame except a way to increase evasion, as protect does what it does normally, but better (protect has 8 more pp). Every pokemon that learns detect also learns protect.
These things combined make Detect has no rightful place in the metagame based off of precedent, so there is no reason to keep it. Banning it is for consistency, which has been a complaint from many due to a lack of it at times within the metagame.

One might say, "well how come Z-Camouflage and Z-Lucky Chant haven't been banned too?" and I believe there's a few parts to it. One is the difficulty of complex bans, which banning specifically Z-Effects of certain moves is difficult to do. The other is that these two moves have their own effects that do something different than another move, unlike Detect which is Protect but worse (except the Z-Effects are different.)

In the end though, what happened was as Quote said, unacceptable. (Oh my god I'm not sucking off council this time guys!!!) Quickbanning, as has been said, shouldn't be done this far into the metagame, and there should've been a precursor post or something, perhaps "We're talking about banning Detect in council, talk amongst yourselves and post in the thread about it and we'll vote after a week." There's not much wrong that could happen there, except people complaining about the subject of the ban, and why other things aren't being looked at. In the end though, I somewhat take responsibility for this as being one of the root causes, since I brought talk of Detect to attention, so if you want to hate on someone for talking about Detect when other things should be prioritized, it should be me. I just brought it up because I was given hard numbers of the winning chances.

Sorry about the long post, here's a tldr: Banning Detect is for consistency, it brings nothing but a previously banned strategy to the metagame, and the council needs to be more open about this.

 

[The Immortal]

Hi. I am reverting the ban on Detect. This decision was made by the council without consideration of the community. I was not part of this vote, however, I apologize on behalf of the council for the lack of communication and flawed reasoning provided.

Feel free to continue discussion on Detect, without attacking the council, or on the more consistent approach of banning all Z-Moves that boost evasion (i.e. Detect + Fightnium Z, Magnet Rise + Electrium Z, etc...).

 

[dom]

Hi. I am reverting the ban on Detect. This decision was made by the council without consideration of the community. I was not part of this vote, however, I apologize on behalf of the council for the lack of communication and flawed reasoning provided.

Feel free to continue discussion on Detect, without attacking the council, or on the more consistent approach of banning all Z-Moves that boost evasion (i.e. Detect + Fightnium Z, Magnet Rise + Electrium Z, etc...).

Holy FUCK you admitted the council was wrong, big moves for the 1v1 leadership.

Like I said earlier, can you please ban things that have actually shown themselves to be overwhelmingly problematic? Z-Detect hasn't really seen any tour play, but I really think as I said earlier, there are bigger fish to fry in the 1v1 banlist (Dnite (broken with mimi and kyub gone), Zmoves in general, having a (kyub, maybe. given up hope on it mostly + )rachi suspect. Can you guys get off your asses when it comes to pressing matters? Maybe a statement on sleep because that was deemed not banworthy to put the idiots that don't understand smogon to rest? Please, do something that actually improves the meta in a noticeable way.

 

[rumia]

Well I'll be, this is surely a first. Thank goodness I didn't delete my anti-detect teams. I can tell this is gonna be a strategy that will only get more popular as time goes. I'm neutral about it so I'm not as active in discussion about it, but let's hope people come to a common agreement about it. Probably not though, lol.

 

[yogi]

OK, I don't play 1v1 much but, are people arguing for Detect not being removed? I don't understand this. Firstly, it's a priority evasion move which is actually pretty dumb in itself because it's taking control away from the opponent, and consistency doesn't mean it isn't uncompetitive. Secondly, as far as I know, every Pokemon that gets Detect gets Protect. This means that the banning has zero effect on the meta outside of stopping people using it for the evasion use. Yeah, maybe they should've actually talked about it more, but people complaining about it being banned over other things don't quite get it in my honest opinion. This is something they should be able to remove because it quite LITERALLY has no other side-effects or good arguments for keeping it. Sleep and other such potential bans are quite different to this.

And yeah I do agree that it was dumb as fuck to do it out of the blue, there should've been an announcement or something along those lines.

 

[lost heros]

What a weird hill to die on. I’ve been out of the loop for a while, but since everyone appreciates my two cents:

It seems fairly obvious that this strategy is horrible in the “lol sure ok bud” way and the emotion of the posts is pretty blatantly from council vs community stuff.

The actual ban is fine, as in yea ban it but like why bother. Z-detect seems like a pretty cheeky way to get past the spirit of the evasion clause.

Evasion Clause
A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.


You can claim that z-detect only incidentally increases evasion, but it’s pretty evident the only reason to ever even think about running detect at all is to try to utilize that precious evasion boost.

You can also claim that z-detect is all about probability management in the similar vein to low accuracy moves, which is much more reasonable. However, there is precedent in 1v1 in banning probability management when it’s rooted in evasion. Mud-slap was banned despite the primary use was for stall Pokémon to avoid getting hit by critical hits.

Anyways y’all wild.

 

[Squawkerz]

Hi! I don't really play 1v1 that much, but i feel that i have a large enough understanding of the metagame to contribute in this discussion. I don't have enough of a grasp on the Detect discussion to come to a decision on ban/no ban, but i do have something to offer.

The other Z-moves that boost evasion are Lucky Chant, Camouflage, and Magnet Rise.

I feel that, if Detect is banned because of Z-Detect's evasion boost, then i feel that Lucky Chant and Camouflage should also be banned.

Lucky Chant has almost no consistent usage outside of Audino-Mega, an unranked pokemon, and sometimes Clefable. Its effect outside of Z-Lucky Chant has no real effect on the outcome, as getting rid of a mechanic that's already unlikely to happen is not that important. Camoflauge is also a move that is very rarely used, as only a few unviable pokemon abuse it. It at least has a more important effect than Lucky Chant, as it can change the pokemon's type to Normal or a Terrain typing.

Magnet Rise is a move I'm a bit torn on, because it has actual usage, but a lot of the things that use it already hold a mega stone, so they can't abuse Z-Magnet Rise.

 

[Freddy Kyogre]

Hi! I don't really play 1v1 that much, but i feel that i have a large enough understanding of the metagame to contribute in this discussion. I don't have enough of a grasp on the Detect discussion to come to a decision on ban/no ban, but i do have something to offer.

The other Z-moves that boost evasion are Lucky Chant, Camouflage, and Magnet Rise.

I feel that, if Detect is banned because of Z-Detect's evasion boost, then i feel that Lucky Chant and Camouflage should also be banned.

Lucky Chant has almost no consistent usage outside of Audino-Mega, an unranked pokemon, and sometimes Clefable. Its effect outside of Z-Lucky Chant has no real effect on the outcome, as getting rid of a mechanic that's already unlikely to happen is not that important. Camoflauge is also a move that is very rarely used, as only a few unviable pokemon abuse it. It at least has a more important effect than Lucky Chant, as it can change the pokemon's type to Normal or a Terrain typing.

Magnet Rise is a move I'm a bit torn on, because it has actual usage, but a lot of the things that use it already hold a mega stone, so they can't abuse Z-Magnet Rise.

Just because they're not used doesn't mean they should be banned. Like I said in my earlier post, all the other moves that raise evasion after Z-Effects all have their own usage and properties, separating them from Detect which has nothing to it except that it's a worse protect with 8 less PP and a different Z-Effect. Every pokemon that learns Detect also learns protect, further cementing Detect's inherent uselessness outside of Z-Effects. Camouflage and Lucky Chant actually do their own thing, so they have no reason to go.

Magnet rise is also off the table. There is almost no way to code that without an insane amount of complex coding leading to a complex ban, which we like to avoid as much as possible, since we can't just ban the base move.

 

[Kaif]

I want to point out 2 things.

1.About sleep,one of the main arguments was the lack of usage,but here we are banning Detect,a move whose only relevant mention in usage stats is 12% usage one 1 Pokemon.

2."If 4 pokemon is broken with a move/mechanic,we'll ban the pokemon,not the move/mechanic"
So,why was Detect banned instead of Deoxys-Speed but not Yawn,Sleep Podwer,Hypnosis instead of Snorlax?
(Not even gonna talk about Normalium-Z at this point,just this)

I love it when the council complains about receiving negative feedback on a controversial decision,then procceeds to repeat it
(Kyurem-Black and Jirachi quickban-Detect quickban)

u do realise I went for an unban detect or suspect it

What a weird hill to die on. I’ve been out of the loop for a while, but since everyone appreciates my two cents:

It seems fairly obvious that this strategy is horrible in the “lol sure ok bud” way and the emotion of the posts is pretty blatantly from council vs community stuff.

The actual ban is fine, as in yea ban it but like why bother. Z-detect seems like a pretty cheeky way to get past the spirit of the evasion clause.

Evasion Clause
A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.


You can claim that z-detect only incidentally increases evasion, but it’s pretty evident the only reason to ever even think about running detect at all is to try to utilize that precious evasion boost.

You can also claim that z-detect is all about probability management in the similar vein to low accuracy moves, which is much more reasonable. However, there is precedent in 1v1 in banning probability management when it’s rooted in evasion. Mud-slap was banned despite the primary use was for stall Pokémon to avoid getting hit by critical hits.

Anyways y’all wild.

wild

Hi! I don't really play 1v1 that much, but i feel that i have a large enough understanding of the metagame to contribute in this discussion. I don't have enough of a grasp on the Detect discussion to come to a decision on ban/no ban, but i do have something to offer.

The other Z-moves that boost evasion are Lucky Chant, Camouflage, and Magnet Rise.

I feel that, if Detect is banned because of Z-Detect's evasion boost, then i feel that Lucky Chant and Camouflage should also be banned.

Lucky Chant has almost no consistent usage outside of Audino-Mega, an unranked pokemon, and sometimes Clefable. Its effect outside of Z-Lucky Chant has no real effect on the outcome, as getting rid of a mechanic that's already unlikely to happen is not that important. Camoflauge is also a move that is very rarely used, as only a few unviable pokemon abuse it. It at least has a more important effect than Lucky Chant, as it can change the pokemon's type to Normal or a Terrain typing.

Magnet Rise is a move I'm a bit torn on, because it has actual usage, but a lot of the things that use it already hold a mega stone, so they can't abuse Z-Magnet Rise.

basically why detect ban is stupid and would cause all these other moves to get banned. Thing has no usage and ya'll want this banned D:

 

[RunWithTheScizors]

Interesting thought:

The only real Z-Detect user is Deoxys-Speed, because other mons with pressure are incompatible w/ detect + pressure (hidden ability).

The other thing is:
.usage Deoxys-Speed moves 1v1
Psycho Boost 53.390% | Recover 48.574% | Ice Beam 41.003% | Taunt 39.278% | Focus Blast 29.207% | Thunderbolt 27.643% | Iron Defense 26.925% | Amnesia 23.706% | Substitute 17.438% | Detect 14.495% | Dark Pulse 8.781% | Shadow Ball 7.514% | Energy Ball 6.067% | Protect 5.703%

You can see that the gimmick is starting to become more popular, but I do not think it is busted to begin with,

Since Deoxys is very fast, it can use detect/sub/recover + pressure to stall a choicemon, but even then it barely works. I’ve lost to unviable sets with this set (specifically something like 3 attacks torterra) and even high ladder dragon dance and taunt ruin it. The +1 evasion boost maybe helps once in a great while but most matches, as a deoxys-s user, it feels nonexistant sometimes.

 

[Kaif]

.usage Deoxys-Speed moves 1v1
Psycho Boost 53.390% | Recover 48.574% | Ice Beam 41.003% | Taunt 39.278% | Focus Blast 29.207% | Thunderbolt 27.643% | Iron Defense 26.925% | Amnesia 23.706% | Substitute 17.438% | Detect 14.495% | Dark Pulse 8.781% | Shadow Ball 7.514% | Energy Ball 6.067% | Protect 5.703%

I'd like to know what elo that's from

Since Deoxys is very fast, it can use detect/sub/recover + pressure to stall a choicemon, but even then it barely works. I’ve lost to unviable sets with this set (specifically something like 3 attacks torterra) and even high ladder dragon dance and taunt ruin it. The +1 evasion boost maybe helps once in a great while but most matches, as a deoxys-s user, it feels nonexistant sometimes.

This is another point that z-detect loses matchups any other set that the mon would win. The set is so bad at this point that I don't know if anyone thinks that it's a good set anymore.

 

[lancert]

how to win with z-detect :} https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-832910382

 

[ConnorJC]

A lot of people seem to be arguing that Z-Detect breaks the evasion clause, but I disagree. The second part of the evasion clause is important:

A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.

Z-Detect is a one-time use move that is directly linked to an item. Without said item Detect by itself does not increase evasion. Therefore I would argue that the evasion boost is derived from an item, and should not simply be swept under the rug as "against the evasion clause".

Z-Detect is a niche evasion boosting move that is essentially an extra-powerful BrightPowder that also (kinda) costs you one of your move slots as well as your item. It's not any more or less competitive than sleep, moves that can flinch/status, moves that can miss, etc.