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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter The Immortal
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I'm honestly not that good or proficient at 1v1, but it sounds like a really bad idea to unban 2 mons that were broken in the past to deal with one mon that's broken/unhealthy now. It'd be like if Dragonite was broken so you unbanned Tapu Koko to deal with it. That doesn't fix the problem, it just creates more.
Shouldn't you provide a screenshot? That's actual proof.
he's good, that is indeed his alt. Plus anyone can do /rank and get anyone's rank and screenshot that tbh
starfoulah my gxe dropped so much
i put it here right
man this is late took me a lot longer than i thought it would
man this is late took me a lot longer than i thought it would
The suspect test has concluded.
12/18 > 60%, that means supermajority has been achieved and Mimikyu is now banned from 1v1.
Edit: To prevent confusion, 3 people out of 18 did not vote. Even if they vote DNB, Mimikyu would still be banned.
UnleashOurPassion: Ban
TDA: Ban
motogp: Ban
DEG: Ban
gyffyrd: Ban
ayedan: Ban
UBERLandon21: Ban
Jirachirelia: Ban
MaceMaster: Do not ban
XSTATIC COLD: Ban
Elo Bandit: Ban
Osra: Ban
ryyjyywyy: Do not ban
Freddy Kyogre: Ban
toadandhishaxx: Do not ban
TDA: Ban
motogp: Ban
DEG: Ban
gyffyrd: Ban
ayedan: Ban
UBERLandon21: Ban
Jirachirelia: Ban
MaceMaster: Do not ban
XSTATIC COLD: Ban
Elo Bandit: Ban
Osra: Ban
ryyjyywyy: Do not ban
Freddy Kyogre: Ban
toadandhishaxx: Do not ban
12/18 > 60%, that means supermajority has been achieved and Mimikyu is now banned from 1v1.
Edit: To prevent confusion, 3 people out of 18 did not vote. Even if they vote DNB, Mimikyu would still be banned.
kyub is not broken.
Rachi is a massive problem for the plebs because it has serene grace.
I don't see where ur at when u say "2 mons that were broken in the past" since it is not uncommon for pokemon to be unbanned after they were banned. Example: Entei in RU
There's absolutely no reason to unban Jirachi, ever. It does next to nothing that Metagross can't aside from flinch people to their graves. Kyurem-B definitely is broken. It had over a dozen distinct sets, beating overwhelming chunks of the meta with its best ones and experiencing only minimal opportunity cost with its worst ones. If they were problematic, and continue to be problematic, they won't be unbanned. Since there's been very little change in the meta that's at all likely to balance Kyub, and in fact the contrary is true with the meta's power creep decreasing since then, it's very reasonable to say that Kyub is still broken and Jirachi is still uncompetitive.
name me ten sets right here right now that isn't a gimmick
While KyuB would be a very good pokemon in the 1v1 meta. Power Creep in the metagame has increased (if that's a way to say it) since KyuB was banned (I wasn't out back then don't judge). I would at least want experimental room tours to see if KyuB really is the overwhelming beast of an S tier mon that u imply it to be.
i was gonna post about this, but i didnt expect so soon. oh well.
#1 the voter pool that voted on kyubrachi is the worst voter pool in 1v1 history. period. i won't write a para on it because you guys know how i feel.
and #2 there needs to be consistency with rachi and other serene grace flinchers like togekiss or S A W S B U C K or even meloetta.
so about togekiss. why isn't it banned, again? jirachi didn't have overwhelming results in tournaments of worse players beating better players purely off luck. so, i did the liberty of doing s-a vr mus (b+-b- too much)
togekiss (OH NO AIR SLASH MISS=UNVIABLE) has a literal better offensive typing. period. it's better at flinching shit to the death, if you actually use facts like vr matchups (thnx glyx ig), you can actually see despite togekiss' problems (low speed, 5% (end of the world) miss chance) it's better at flinching. but more notably, it's better at flinching mcharizard and mgyara. i don't see why a mon better at flinching top threats than a banned mon is free while jira isn't.
you could say "jirachi is PURELY!!!! outclassed". and this is uh, not true. jira is better at being relevant mons like pz, genesect, chansey and jumpluff while providing speed control and a stallbreaker. saying it's PURELY outclassed and the only reason you'd want to use it is for flinches is literally wrong. you think togekiss isn't outclassed? gee, i wonder why despite it's ability to flinch, it's still at low usage stats (1.5%, lol that's 1 out of 50 games rounding up). i, and others, don't want their fairy type to like, lose to flyium dnite. there are better fairies in usum. garde, lele, magearna, while there's better birds like zardy and dnite. it's a less obvious case of outclassing but there's a reason you don't see togekiss taking over 1v1.
sawsbuck is irritating too, ig.
overall, togekiss is better at flinching, so it should either be banned (WITH SAWSBUCK) or well, rachi freed. i don't get the weird fascination 1v1ers have and trying to get rid of a much rng as possible (sleep, rachi) when neither are problematic. i want rachi to be freed, but tbh i don't see it happening, because in order for that to happen, ti or the other council members need to admit they're wrong.
mace rn
what an absolutely STUPID statement! there i think are 2 reasons rachi should be unbanned.
#1 the voter pool that voted on kyubrachi is the worst voter pool in 1v1 history. period. i won't write a para on it because you guys know how i feel.
and #2 there needs to be consistency with rachi and other serene grace flinchers like togekiss or S A W S B U C K or even meloetta.
so about togekiss. why isn't it banned, again? jirachi didn't have overwhelming results in tournaments of worse players beating better players purely off luck. so, i did the liberty of doing s-a vr mus (b+-b- too much)
te = toge easier
je = jira easier
bh = both hard
bw = both win
S Rank
Charizard-Mega - te
Gyarados-Mega - te
A+ Rank
Dragonite - je? toge doesnt wanna take a z-fly but at the same time you rly only need 2-3 either iheas or slash flinches.
Magearna - je - still hard with id + psplit
Metagross-Mega - bh
A Rank
Landorus-Therian - te
Porygon-Z - je
Tapu Lele - je
Zygarde-Complete - te
A- Rank
Greninja - te
Lopunny-Mega - bw
Magnezone - bh
Slowbro-Mega - te
Venusaur-Mega - bw
te = 9
je = 5
bh = 2
bw = 3
je = jira easier
bh = both hard
bw = both win
S Rank
Charizard-Mega - te
Gyarados-Mega - te
A+ Rank
Dragonite - je? toge doesnt wanna take a z-fly but at the same time you rly only need 2-3 either iheas or slash flinches.
Magearna - je - still hard with id + psplit
Metagross-Mega - bh
A Rank
Landorus-Therian - te
Porygon-Z - je
Tapu Lele - je
Zygarde-Complete - te
A- Rank
Greninja - te
Lopunny-Mega - bw
Magnezone - bh
Slowbro-Mega - te
Venusaur-Mega - bw
te = 9
je = 5
bh = 2
bw = 3
you could say "jirachi is PURELY!!!! outclassed". and this is uh, not true. jira is better at being relevant mons like pz, genesect, chansey and jumpluff while providing speed control and a stallbreaker. saying it's PURELY outclassed and the only reason you'd want to use it is for flinches is literally wrong. you think togekiss isn't outclassed? gee, i wonder why despite it's ability to flinch, it's still at low usage stats (1.5%, lol that's 1 out of 50 games rounding up). i, and others, don't want their fairy type to like, lose to flyium dnite. there are better fairies in usum. garde, lele, magearna, while there's better birds like zardy and dnite. it's a less obvious case of outclassing but there's a reason you don't see togekiss taking over 1v1.
sawsbuck is irritating too, ig.
overall, togekiss is better at flinching, so it should either be banned (WITH SAWSBUCK) or well, rachi freed. i don't get the weird fascination 1v1ers have and trying to get rid of a much rng as possible (sleep, rachi) when neither are problematic. i want rachi to be freed, but tbh i don't see it happening, because in order for that to happen, ti or the other council members need to admit they're wrong.
mace rn
Dragonite coming to destroy the ladder on showdown after the mimi suspect, October 2018 colorized.
Elo KeepKyuBanned
Ten non-gimmick kyuB sets for Kaif
None of these are gimmicks (electrium Z is not included because it's bad). I truly think Kyurem Black is a nightmare to build against or try to predict consistently, and it should stay banned.
Ten non-gimmick kyuB sets for Kaif
Mixed Scarf (+speed Ice Beam)
Adamant physical Scarf
Choice Band
Choice Specs
Groundium Z
Weakness Policy
Haban Berry
Fast sub hone claws Icium Z
UoP's slow bulky Icium Z
Mixed Dragonium Z + Laser Focus
Adamant physical Scarf
Choice Band
Choice Specs
Groundium Z
Weakness Policy
Haban Berry
Fast sub hone claws Icium Z
UoP's slow bulky Icium Z
Mixed Dragonium Z + Laser Focus
None of these are gimmicks (electrium Z is not included because it's bad). I truly think Kyurem Black is a nightmare to build against or try to predict consistently, and it should stay banned.
1v1 Suspect Philosophy
In an effort to make something more clear and universally understandable and accepted 1v1 is an Other Metagame built under the premise of emulating what OU would be like if all battles were forced to have the "Bring 3 pick 1" format. As an emulation of OU, we ideally want to keep as many OU and below Pokemon in the meta, as well as keeping as few Ubers in the meta as possible. There are, however, exceptions to both of these, in which case a non-Uber Pokemon becomes too unhealthy to keep in the meta, or an Uber Pokemon becomes less problematic in 1v1 than it would be in proper 6v6 OU. These exceptions serve as what distinguishes our banlist from the banlist of OU.
Exceptions arise from the changes in concept between OU and 1v1. Since battles only consist of a single Pokemon pitted against another single Pokemon, strategies that are more team-based become considerably less viable, hence the unbanning of Shadow Tag and Baton Pass. Conversely, strategies that are predominantly based on knocking out a single Pokemon become much more viable, hence the increased presence of recharge moves and high-powered Z-moves. If the council and/or community believes that a Pokemon/Move/Ability/Item that is too unhealthy to be allowed in OU would not perform as well in 1v1, then the council is at their discretion to vote to either suspect it or outright unban it themselves. The same goes for the opposite scenario in which a Pokemon/Move/Ability/Item that is perfectly healthy in OU becomes too unhealthy to be kept in 1v1.
The banlist acts as the ultimate barrier between balance and unbalance. Ubers is the banlist for OU, so effectively, anything that is banned from 1v1 becomes a 1v1 Uber. Bans and unbans can come up through either the community bringing things to the council's attention or through the council discussing among themselves, either way, everything ultimately has to go through the council. When decisions go to council, it takes a minimum of 60% vote for something to forego suspect testing and be immediately banned/unbanned. On the other hand, if something only gets 40% vote at most, then the proposed change will be dropped completely. Lastly, if something ends up between these two ranges, then the decision goes to public suspect testing to be decided by the community.¹ Once something has been voted on by the council or suspect tested, further discussion pertaining to the aspect will be blacklisted for a minimum of 1 month.²
Potential bans or unbans can be brought to the attention of the council through posting in the main discussion thread with valid reasoning and evidence to back up the proposed change. As an emulation to OU, please keep in mind that metagame changes are ideally meant to be as inclusive as possible, with the only exceptions being elements that are or would be considered too unhealthy to result in a balanced metagame in any 1v1 scenario other than Ubers or AG.
Potential bans or unbans can be brought to the attention of the council through posting in the main discussion thread with valid reasoning and evidence to back up the proposed change. As an emulation to OU, please keep in mind that metagame changes are ideally meant to be as inclusive as possible, with the only exceptions being elements that are or would be considered too unhealthy to result in a balanced metagame in any 1v1 scenario other than Ubers or AG.
When a Pokemon/Move/Ability/Item is considered to be "unhealthy", it can mean one of two things: either that the aspect in question has many meta-relevant scenarios in which it is advantageous to be used (Broken), or that using it creates scenarios in which either one of or both players are rendered unable to engage in battle other than to wait for the result of random chance(Uncompetitive), and everything in between. When something is brought up as unhealthy, it is important to consider the weight it has on the relevant metagame, as well as what the relevant metagame can do to fight back against it. If the metagame's answers to an unhealthy element are too few in number and/or too expensive in opportunity cost to be useful otherwise, then that element may possibly be too unhealthy to be kept in the metagame, warranting a ban.
This is a subjectively defined notion that varies from each individual person's interpretation on what should and should not be allowed in the metagame. It is not solely based off of something working in a majority of scenarios or X% of the time. When something is "too" unhealthy, it very often warps the metagame around itself, forcing players to expend a greater amount of resources in order to beat/check specifically the unhealthy threat than they would for other, more healthy, threats.
- An example of this would be Kyurem-Black and how it forced a vast majority of players to run otherwise unoptimal sets in order to beat it; Gyarados had to run absurd amounts of bulk AND Outrage, Mimikyu, Charizard, and Tapu Lele almost always had to be max Speed and/or bulked considerably, Primarina and Tapu Fini had to run Specs or Fairium, etc. Even despite all this warping around Kyurem-Black, it was still able to pull off several other sets and spreads that ruined the work people previously did to counter it.
In regards to non-Pokemon elements being discussed for being unhealthy, we have to consider whether or not the aspect in question is presently viable when used by a considerable number of Pokemon that the aspect is distributed to. Even if an aspect in question has users that are more viable than others, the aspect may still be considered more unhealthy than the best users if less viable users are still capable of emulating what the more viable users do.
- OHKO moves, for example, are best used on fast Pokemon in an attempt to outspeed opponents and instantly knock them out before they get the chance to do anything. That said, the fast Pokemon were not banned in place of OHKO moves because there were still plenty of slower OHKO users that could emulate what the more viable fast Pokemon were doing.
When making your post, consider the weight being applied to the meta by the aspect you're looking to discuss. Does it have an impact on a considerable number of meta-relevant scenarios? What can the meta do to beat it? Is it flexible enough to get around the meta's countermeasures?
That said, there are also things to avoid when trying to convince people of your premise. Distinguishing between differences in theory versus in practice means much less in the case of 1v1; most battle scenarios can often be accounted for through the use of the Damage Calculator alone, which means that discussing scenarios "in theory" might as well be discussing scenarios "in practice", in a vast majority of cases. Having "experience" means less in 1v1, as the more volatile format of the metagame makes it liable to having people of all ranges of experience being more capable of performing feats that mostly people of greater experience would be able to in other metagames. Usage statistics, while they do help us get a feel for the metagame's centralization and how players do things, don't really shed much light on an aspect's effect on the metagame, or even an aspect's viability, they are just a measurement of how often the aspect is or is not used (This is not to say that usage statistics as a whole are useless when discussing; for instance, observing the changes in usage statistics before and after a new aspect is introduced to the meta can shed light on its effect upon the meta).
That said, there are also things to avoid when trying to convince people of your premise. Distinguishing between differences in theory versus in practice means much less in the case of 1v1; most battle scenarios can often be accounted for through the use of the Damage Calculator alone, which means that discussing scenarios "in theory" might as well be discussing scenarios "in practice", in a vast majority of cases. Having "experience" means less in 1v1, as the more volatile format of the metagame makes it liable to having people of all ranges of experience being more capable of performing feats that mostly people of greater experience would be able to in other metagames. Usage statistics, while they do help us get a feel for the metagame's centralization and how players do things, don't really shed much light on an aspect's effect on the metagame, or even an aspect's viability, they are just a measurement of how often the aspect is or is not used (This is not to say that usage statistics as a whole are useless when discussing; for instance, observing the changes in usage statistics before and after a new aspect is introduced to the meta can shed light on its effect upon the meta).
2: Other Metagames and tiers do implement this, and I believe it would be very important to have discussion on a recently suspected aspect blacklisted for a period of time after its suspect. Not certain on what would be an ideal time length for it, though; 1 month would definitely be the minimum, though. I'm uncertain on whether or not it would be fair to blacklist discussion if something doesn't get enough votes for a suspect or gets quickbanned, as these decisions don't involve community participation; at the same time, allowing discussion after instances like these may just lead to people spamming the thread about banning Sawsbuck or something if we don't enforce a discussion blacklist. Either way, having discussion blacklists would hopefully help in keeping people focused so that we no longer have to worry as much about having situations like the mania of Uber unban posts that we had last year.
Thoughts, edits, suggestions, anyone? You're the people who would be affected most by this if it gets adopted, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.
sleep is pretty balanced. sleep isnt really used that much since snorlax was like 80% of its usage, and the mons that need it lose 2 coverage move slots while also not winning battles it "shouldnt" reliably. sleep has plenty of opportunity cost and isnt broken in any way
Uhh, what? Groundium was deadass one of its worst sets. There was Icium, Scarf, Special Scarf, Choice Band, Choice Specs, Dragonium, Weakness Policy and Haban, all of which were absolutely top tier. Groundium, Chople, Electrium and Life Orb were the only sets that experienced genuine opportunity cost as far as I remember. Kyurem's worst sets still tend to beat as much of the metagame as A ranks.
I just named 12 off the top of my head^
I'm almost on board with banning Serene Grace. Togekiss and Sawsbuck are nearly as abusable as Jirachi (Meloetta can do it too, but no one really uses it like that). Meloetta is the only reason why I don't want Serene Grace banned as it doesn't rely on hax 99/100 times
The reason Jirachi was banned but not Togekiss is because Togekiss has value other than a flinch-exclusive set, Z-Charm notably. Jirachi also had higher usage for it. Togekiss is debatable, but Jirachi is quite nearly indefensible.
man, you don't get it. my post is not one of the many stupid & bad posts trying to get rid of something potentially, but not 100% luck based (think sleep, not mud slap). 1v1 will always have game changing luck, if your fire blast misses you prolly lose, if your ice beam freezes you prolly win. i am not riling the people up to ban togekiss and sawsbuck. my point is that togekiss / rachi / sawsbuck are on the same boat, and are not problematic enough to be banned. they're not viable enough pokemon who are constantly changing games. rachi was a b rank mon who had bad mus vs top mons. idk if any tier ever had banned a b rank mon. togekiss is b-. it, like rachi gets low usage. flinchers aren't constantly cheesing games, and i speak with certainty when i say that gyarados is more of a problematic flincher w/ waterfall than rachi or togekiss or whatever the fuck. my post is not about banning togekiss, you're rly missing the point.
wowzers, what a terrible argument. with this logic, we shouldn't have banned mimikyu because even though it has problematic sets, at the end of the day it can run life orb wood hammer, which isn't broken. with this argument, literally nothing would be banned, because oh no, at the end of the day there's a set that's worse or not problematic. also you're acting like all rachi does is try to flinch things, when that's not true.
i actually don't get why i bother. like, i've showed evidence rachi isn't problematic but it won't be freed because a group of 6 people got flinched by it a few times on ladder in 2017.
If Jirachi can win most matchups with one 60% flinch, I would agree that it's more like sleep than Mud Slap. However, just scroll down the VR... There's genuinely very little that Jirachi needs just one flinch to beat. You're overhwelmingly seeing Jirachi either needing 0 flinches or 4ish. There's like Naga, maybe Kommo-o, Band Sawk, Vivillon and Lando-I. In the event that it needs multiple flinches, I think that it's more like Mud Slap than sleep because it's no longer a reasonable win condition. At this point, it's become probability management - fishing for hax. I don't complain when I get flinched by Jirachi once, I complain when I get flinched an amount of times that would be unreasonable to prepare for - imo anything more than 2.
I'm sure that no tier has banned a B rank mon for being broken, at least, but we're talking uncompetitive
Again, this is about uncompetitive, not broken. I don't mean to claim that Togekiss should not be banned for this reason, but I do mean to claim simply that if Jirachi is banworthy, it doesn't follow that Togekiss is. If Togekiss' "bad" outweighs its "good," it should still be banned. Jirachi had next to no "good," unlike Togekiss. Besides, Z-Charm is easily more viable than Scarf
Also, just wanna clarify that when I said...
"The reason Jirachi was banned but not Togekiss is because Togekiss has value other than a flinch-exclusive set, Z-Charm notably. Jirachi also had higher usage for it. Togekiss is debatable, but Jirachi is quite nearly indefensible"
...I wasn't saying that this is the reason Jirachi should or was banned, but it is a reason to not ban Togekiss beside it by default. This got brought up to me and I can see how my wording made it easy to misinterpret. Sorry :p
ok so name me 10 zard sets now and tell me why zard is not banned. According to you, KyuB had these sets which made him a "nightmare" to predict. EVERY pokemon has sets that can be used, whether it has 10 or 20. Number of sets do not make the pokemon unbalanced. If that was the case, I don't see OU players saying "oh ban greninja because it can slap on a z-move and ohko its checks."
This isn't a good post Kaif.
Let's have some fun, shall we? Consulting the Pokepaste for guidance, let's see if we can somehow stretch Charizard into having 10 or 20 sets. (The same moves with a different EV spread isn't a new set. If you're thinking "Elo did this!” take a look at his list again.)
1. Dragon Dance Charizard X (with Flare Blitz, Outrage, and Sub / Will-o / Counter)
2. Belly Drum Charizard X
3. Flame Charge Charizard X. Maybe with SD or something. That's probably a set, right? Is it different enough to be separate from 1? Yeah, I guess.
4. Max physically defensive / specially defensive Counter Charizard X without setup moves. Not everyone is Generation VI deg but I imagine someone still uses this sort of thing.
5. Charizard Y with Blast Burn and Solar Beam and some combination of Air Slash, Hidden Power Electric, and Flame Charge... oh wait that's pretty much its only set, with some EV spread shenanigans obviously.
6. Okay I guess there's also a universe where Charizard Y sets with Rock Tomb and/or Will-o-Wisp and/or Counter are a thing. Okay.
So therefore Charizard has fewer sets than Kyurem-B... even though it has two different formes with different offensive emphases.
Kaif said:
Well, I couldn't name 10 Charizard sets... does that mean I now have to argue why Charizard should be banned? And what does this have to do with Kyurem-B?
Oh, I see. I don't claim to know anything about OU but I would imagine opportunity cost plays a big role here. The reason why we can list Kyurem-B's sets and call them all viable is that they lose very few of the main things a generic Kyurem-B is supposed to counter. Greninja (I would imagine) lacks the power to take out stuff it normally would if it starts running Poisonium Z or something. I don't know. But it's not like running something bizarre like "Mixed Dragonium Z + Laser Focus" makes you lose the ability to beat Donphan and Golem.Kaif said:
I'm not articulating this super well, but I hope you all understand why "any Pokemon can run 10 sets" isn't an argument. First of all, they can't, usually; second of all, even if they could, they're not as good as Kyurem-B's 10 sets.
edit: I realized that the whole "the same moves with a different EV spread isn't a new set" thing is a little bit subjective. I'm sorry if I presented it like fact. The thing is that if you do include the same moves with a different EV spread, it gives a bunch of new sets to every Pokemon, so whether or not I made this distinction was pretty irrelevant, but I did it here to make the best possible comparison with Elo's sets.
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