Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[blondesasukeuchiha]

More detailed sleep post/video coming soon. In the meantime, here's a Sleep Pokemon that doesn't rely on any luck at all to operate:

unless it lives a hit from a faster mon and then 100% needs luck to win

 

[ryyjyywyy]

Tbh, no. Doesnt change the fact sleep is uncompetitive.

why dont u back the claim up rather than act like you’re correct just cus you think you are. also if you havent read the thread maybe dont say “everyone thinks this way so ban”

 

[Elo Bandit]

unless it lives a hit from a faster mon and then 100% needs luck to win

If you're against a faster Pokemon you should expect to lose. This is an example of outspeeding as a guaranteed win condition. The same logic applies to other speed trap Pokemon like Jumpluff, Smeargle, and Curse Mimikyu.

 

[charizard8888]

Surprise

Garchomp @ Haban Berry
Impish Nature
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 20 Def / 96 SpD / 100 Spe
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Substitute

The Garchomp set which can be used to lure and eliminate Dragonite!
- Rock Tomb prevents any potential Dragon Dance setup (No reason to DDance since Scarf Chomp is a thing though) and against others like Thunudurus-T.
- Substitute helps against stallmons and status like Snorlax, Mega Venusuar and Blissey, and taking Z Moves easily from Aegislash.
- Speed EVs lets it outspeed Dragonite

I tried but not sure if the EVs are perfect
Would need it to hit Max HP, 307 Attack, 254 Defense, 230 Special Defense, 264 Spe. If changing natures can help, the surplus EVs can be put into Attack to KO Sawk after a Rock Tomb.

Some Pokemon that this set can defeat

Matchups

Most of the sets for calcing have been taken from MaceMaster's movesets Pokepaste

Regular Garchomp almost always defeats Zard X but here's for more surety

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 355-418 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 128 HP / 104 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 278-330 (84.4 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Blast Burn vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 219-258 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 276-328 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 322-379 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

208+ SpA Dragonite Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 288-340 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 69-82 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO

44 Atk Garchomp Rock Tomb vs. 224 HP / 8 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 58-69 (15.3 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 224 HP / 8 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

216+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 298-352 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Rock Tomb vs. 112 HP / 8 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 58-69 (16.5 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 112 HP / 8 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Golem Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 283-334 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Golem Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 74-88 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 222-264 (73.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 296-352 (70.4 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 295-348 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 292-348 (69.5 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 312-367 (74.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 368-434 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 327-385 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 404-476 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same for Hydreigon
252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 261-307 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defeats Genesis Supernova Mew mostly if it uses Fake Out turn 1
Terrakion
Blaziken
Excadrill
Heatran
Victini
Kommo-o (87.5% chance + crit)
Nihilego
Relicanth
Hitmonlee
Non Ice Z Rhyperior
Salazzle
Barbaracle
Volcanion
Crustle
Magneton
Marowak Alola
Talonflame
Entei
Archeops
Xurkitree
Stakataka
Incineroar is tricky but beatable

 

[pazza]

Tbh, no. Doesnt change the fact sleep is uncompetitive.

Crits are uncompetitive , freeze and para are to so if where getting rid of sleep then lets get rid of the other status. Heck even choice scarfs give mons the ability to win games that they shouldn't. Not everyone wants to ban sleep or thinks this way.

 

[Chrispy Burns]

Surprise

Garchomp @ Haban Berry
Impish Nature
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 20 Def / 96 SpD / 100 Spe
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Substitute

The Garchomp set which can be used to lure and eliminate Dragonite!
- Rock Tomb prevents any potential Dragon Dance setup (No reason to DDance since Scarf Chomp is a thing though) and against others like Thunudurus-T.
- Substitute helps against stallmons and status like Snorlax, Mega Venusuar and Blissey, and taking Z Moves easily from Aegislash.
- Speed EVs lets it outspeed Dragonite

I tried but not sure if the EVs are perfect
Would need it to hit Max HP, 307 Attack, 254 Defense, 230 Special Defense, 264 Spe. If changing natures can help, the surplus EVs can be put into Attack to KO Sawk after a Rock Tomb.

Some Pokemon that this set can defeat

Matchups

Most of the sets for calcing have been taken from MaceMaster's movesets Pokepaste

Regular Garchomp almost always defeats Zard X but here's for more surety

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 355-418 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 128 HP / 104 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 278-330 (84.4 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Blast Burn vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 219-258 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 276-328 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 322-379 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

208+ SpA Dragonite Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 288-340 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 69-82 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO

44 Atk Garchomp Rock Tomb vs. 224 HP / 8 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 58-69 (15.3 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 224 HP / 8 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

216+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 298-352 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Rock Tomb vs. 112 HP / 8 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 58-69 (16.5 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 112 HP / 8 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Golem Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 283-334 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Golem Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 74-88 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 222-264 (73.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 296-352 (70.4 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 295-348 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 292-348 (69.5 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Garchomp: 312-367 (74.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 368-434 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 327-385 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 404-476 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same for Hydreigon
252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Garchomp: 261-307 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defeats Genesis Supernova Mew mostly if it uses Fake Out turn 1
Terrakion
Blaziken
Excadrill
Heatran
Victini
Kommo-o (87.5% chance + crit)
Nihilego
Relicanth
Hitmonlee
Non Ice Z Rhyperior
Salazzle
Barbaracle
Volcanion
Crustle
Magneton
Marowak Alola
Talonflame
Entei
Archeops
Xurkitree
Stakataka
Incineroar is tricky but beatable

Hi it's your usual CB ev post. tldr make it jolly to get one extra ev out of it.

Garchomp @ Haban Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Atk / 112 Def / 96 SpD / 4 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Substitute

 

[Felucia]

Is it worth posting on thread that council is thinking about mimikyu and wants to see opinions?

Yes

That's so much work though

Council is thinking about banning or suspecting mimikyu and wants to see opinions/discussion

I'm such a responsible council member

 

[Felucia]

We're also thinking about banning Sleep or individual abusers so discussion on that would be cool but you've already been doing that so /me thumbs up

 

[Mubs]

Let's Make this Real Quick Frens


I am posting this so people can use it as a reference in the Mimikyu discussion. I don't take a side.


The Main Sets it runs:

Mimikyu Sets

Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z

Ability: Disguise

EVs: 240 HP / 128 Atk / 96 Def / 44 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Swords Dance

- Play Rough

- Shadow Sneak

- Will-O-Wisp / Substitute


Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z

Ability: Disguise

EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Curse

- Thunder Wave

- Substitute

- Protect


Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z

Ability: Disguise

EVs: 240 HP / 20 Atk / 248 Def

Adamant Nature

- Bulk Up

- Will-O-Wisp

- Play Rough

- Shadow Sneak


Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z

Ability: Disguise

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Play Rough

- Curse

- Substitute

- Protect


Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z

Ability: Disguise

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

Adamant Nature

- Swords Dance

- Shadow Claw

- Shadow Sneak

- Will-O-Wisp / Play Rough / Substitute

There are two variants of Mimikyu, Regular form and totem.


Moves that Totem doesn't get, known as egg moves.

Mimikyu Comparisons

Curse

Destiny Bond

Grudge

Nightmare

Main Checks in the Meta

Mimikyu Checks

Gyarados

Taunt

Recover PP Stall

Hoopa-U

Multi-Hit moves

Faster Pokemon immune to Thunder wave

Ways To break Substitute

I know, I am missing some stuff. Will add in the future
Physical walls

This Is It for now. PM me if you want me to add something. I will add more as the time comes. Have fun discussing!

 

[edudittA]

Mimikyu has an issue not for having a single set which wrecks most of the tier, nor for having viable multiple sets which can demolish most of meta, which could most justify banning the Pokemon as a whole. Instead what pushes Mimikyu to this situation of being discussed is its TWave+CurseKyu, which is why (I feel) even if complex, that regular Mimikyu should be banned as Kentari pointed out, since only the regular one can learn the egg move Curse.


No other thoughts from my side.....

 

[Silveryo321]

I feel mimikyu shouldn't be banned as one of its biggest checks (m-gyrados) is one the most used mons in the meta. you know about this going into a team with it and as long as you have a decent counter you're fine. The reson why koko was banned is because it is incredibly hard to counter with a good team with it. Mimikyu doesn't really have great teambuilding potential.

On the other hand I believe sleep moves/snorlax should be banned. It is so simple do use normalium z snorlax and its mono normal team to go with it is very good. I feel this is a simple ban as without sleep it gives 1v1 more skill.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I’m at work so hopefully I don’t get caught...
I feel that if we ban Mimikyu it’s for a different reason than Koko so there’s no point in the “one set beats the whole meta reasoning. Mimikyu is similar to sleep in the fact that it tries to make the game about rng instead of skill with the t-wave curse set. I’ll do exact odds when I get home, but any Pokémon that relies on luck instead of skill and can win a majority of the time shouldn’t be allowed in a competitive metagame in my opinion

 

[Nalei]

I don't really see why Mimikyu is ban-worthy at all. Here's some common thought traps I'm seeing:

"Speed traps* are uncompetitive," "Speed traps* take away the skill," etc
*Where speed traps are defined as Curse Mimikyu, Jumpluff, Vivillon, Smeargle, and Osra's variety of silly sleep users
Speed traps work no differently than any other win condition. Every Pokemon has other groups of Pokemon that beat it. Gyarados loses to Electric and Grass types as a rule, but has other checks and counters like Tapu Lele and Genesect, and can beat some Grass/Electric types like Magnezone. Similarly, Jumpluff for example, loses to things that outspeed it and Taunt users as a rule, but beats Scarf Garchomp in spite of this. In short, there's no difference between winning by outspeeding the opponent and because you could/couldn't KO your opponent.

"Thunder Wave Mimikyu is haxy"
Under the assumption that Mimikyu beats everything slower than it, the only Pokemon that Mimikyu would bother to try to "hax" with Thunder Wave is faster Pokemon. We'll be under the assumption that this faster Pokemon will simply attack and until it either wins or loses and doesn't have any tricks up its sleeves like Taunt. With 90% accuracy and 5 turns with potential for paralysis behind Substitute, the odds of Mimikyu beating generic faster offensive Pokemon is given by 90-(100*.75^5), which equals 66%. Losing to this isn't getting haxed. Losing to this is you picking the wrong Pokemon and losing to something that you should expect to lose to. So, therefore, the only Pokemon that are really concerned about getting haxed by TWave here are Mold Breakers (Mega Gyarados), slower Taunt users and Pokemon with sustain. While it can beat these Pokemon with hax, the odds of it actually pulling it off are very low in any given instance and aren't the intention of the set. Let's take the example of Mega Gyarados. In order for Mimikyu to win this matchup, it has to get either a turn 1 or turn 2 paralysis, plus an additional paralysis depending on Substitute plays, Taunt, turn 1 or turn 2, etc. Not going to do all of that disgusting math, but bottom line is that it's about 10%.

"Mimikyu is too unpredictable between its SD and Curse sets"

List of Pokemon that beat all Mimikyu sets*

Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard Y, Magnezone, Taunt Mega Aggron, Heatran, Substitute/Scarf Kartana, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Tapu Bulu, Band Haxorus, Substitute Nihilego, Taunt Skarmory

List of Pokemon that counter all Charizard sets

Heatran, Mega Altaria, Crustle, Mega Diancie, Archeops, Terrakion, Nihilego

If we're going to be banning things for unpredictability, Mega Charizard is the priority here, not Mimikyu. #BanChoiceScarf
*Where Mimikyu sets are limited to Mimikium+SD, Mimikium+Curse and Thunder Wave+Z-Curse sets

 

[ggopw]

I feel mimikyu shouldn't be banned as one of its biggest checks (m-gyrados) is one the most used mons in the meta. you know about this going into a team with it and as long as you have a decent counter you're fine. The reson why koko was banned is because it is incredibly hard to counter with a good team with it. Mimikyu doesn't really have great teambuilding potential.

On the other hand I believe sleep moves/snorlax should be banned. It is so simple do use normalium z snorlax and its mono normal team to go with it is very good. I feel this is a simple ban as without sleep it gives 1v1 more skill.

The thing with this is bulk up wisp set mimikyu can beat m gyara.


And i agree with atti if we are already focusing so much on "uncompetitive" parts of the meta council and people that discuss on this topic should look into t wave+curse sets. Now since i haven't played much as others after the council bans im not going to say my opinion on mimikyu as i feel it could be very wrong and uneducated but i will add something too sleep since i have been using different sleep mons on the ladder recently with different alts and just observing how people use sleep.

I feel like in general not every sleep pokemon is that good, honestly with the amount of preparation people do and in general natural checks that are on the vrs. However something that i have noticed is snorlax. Which can beat some of its sleep checks such as sub by outplaying and others with different kinds of it's own sets that are still viable and very good. Now if we go and look on the competitive side im kinda in the middle even though i was more on no ban way back. On one part i agree with ryjyw and some stuff that qt said with you know moves in general having a miss chance, crits, secondary effects etc..+ another argument that apparently just disappeared from my brain now so thats cool

And the "strategy" behind sleep in some users being sleep turns with u essentially betting on the amount of sleep turns u will get and sometimes even u hitting the sleep move. In some cases that can be compared to u at some point hitting a really strong or a coverage move that isn't very accurate or u know betting on crits in a pp stall but on the other hand it is in part rng that players choose to use as their strategy to win. Now i feel the question should be at what point is this considered completely uncompetitive or maybe just plain broken.
For example i would use something like how many pokemon can this beat with just pure luck. In something like mega gengar this number is pretty high but in other examples where there is more counterplay and in general nature of the other pokemon and its counters.. something like m camel, yes it can beat some stuff with a bit of extra luck but in general this is no way overwhelming and i don't think anyone should have a problem with that.

And as u may realize my opinion on this whole topic is that it should be looked at individually even if that takes much more time as it feels more fair.

Also minor nitpick on something deg said that there is 0 plays u make with sleep. I would disagree with an example of there being you as a sleep user beating something like a sub user by outplaying and clicking the offensive move instead of clicking the sleep move and timing when do u click it, yes that isn't that common or outstanding of a play but its still technically considered as a play and for the nature of 1v1 they are pretty good and important since they can just win u the game.

Just something to add is if jirachi wasn't banned sleep would never even be something we would discuss like this.I believe it had more of an impact on this then removing of koko.

And ik this wasn't a quality post more like a rant but i felt like writing in here so hopefully i didn't forget /miss too much stuff.

 

[The Official Glyx]

It would seem that a refresher on what "uncompetitive" even means is necessary.

Remember me?

not very good

X = Azumarill loses
N = Neither side wins reliably

S Rank
Gyarados-Mega->Taunt X1
A+ Rank
Charizard-Mega-X-> Lose
Dragonite-> Can kill with Z-Flying moves, but can get Protected N1
Magearna-> Just plain kills X2
Metagross-Mega-> 2HKO X3
Mimikyu-> Uses its own kind of Perish Song and then kills X4
A Rank
Charizard-Mega-Y->Sap Sipper OP
Landorus-Therian-> Same Z-move problems as Dragonite N2
Snorlax-> Belly Drum and death X5
Tapu Lele-> Pure destruction X6
Zygarde-Complete-> Not strong enough
A- Rank
Aegislash-> Metal Sound destroys X7
Genesect-> Specs Thunderbolt X8
Lopunny-Mega-> Can't kill
Magnezone-> Destruction X9
Mawile-Mega-> Can Taunt and/or 2HKO X10
Porygon-Z-> Non-Scarf nukes X11
Slowbro-Mega-> Can be IV-reduced to outslow X12
Venusaur-Mega-> 2HKOs X13
B+ Rank
Aggron-Mega-> Taunt/Speed ties X14
Blaziken-> Nope
Donphan-> Struggles killing without setup
Gardevoir-Mega-> CM and Hyper Beam kills X15
Golem-> Same problem as Donphan
Greninja-> lol, Gunk Shot?
Jumpluff-> S A P S I P P E R
Naganadel-> Death X16
Pinsir-Mega-> Sets up and kills X17
Primarina-> Struggles killing
Tapu Fini-> Can run Taunt X18
B Rank
Altaria-Mega-> Not strong enough, even with setup
Chansey-> Can Speed tie N3
Ferrothorn-> Slower X19
Garchomp-> Can kill with Band/Setup Z-move X20
Heatran-> Taunt X21
Heracross-Mega-> Sappage
Kartana-> Setup Z-move X22
Meloetta-> (Trick Room is viable on non PSong I swear) Setup Z-move X23
Mew-> Taunt X24
Necrozma-> Nuked X25
Sableye-Mega-> Taunt X26
Sawk-> Nope
Tyranitar-Mega-> Taunt apparently exists, if usage stats are to be believed X27
B- Rank

Blastoise-Mega-> Nope
Blissey-> 5 points too fast
Buzzwole-> Nope
Celesteela-> Metal Sound Z-move X28
Crustle-> Setup Z-move X29
Diancie-Mega-> Nope
Durant-> It can flinch, but not reliable
Gengar-Mega-> STAB move/Taunt X30
Hoopa-Unbound-> Setup Z-move/Choice coverage move X31
Kommo-o-> Taunt X32
Swampert-Mega-> Nope
Togekiss-> That's a lotta flinches you need
Whimsicott-> Taunt X33
C+ Rank
Archeops-> Wins, as long as it hits X34
Avalugg-> Slower X35
Camerupt-Mega-> Slower X36
Carracosta-> Setup Z-move X37
Excadrill-> Setup Z-move X38
Gallade-Mega-> Doesn't run Taunt often, so nope
Latios-> Can kill, depending on EVs, or just Specs Thunderbolt X39
Lucario-Mega-> Nope
Marowak-Alola-> Nope
Medicham-Mega-> Thunder Punch X40
Pheromosa-> Nope
Porygon2-> Nope
Scizor-Mega-> Curse X41
Tapu Bulu-> Taunt X42
Terrakion-> Setup Z-move X43
Umbreon-> Little to no Taunt users, so nope
Victini-> Bolt Strike X44
Volcarona-> Nope
C Rank
Blacephalon-> Specs Shadow Ball/Trick X45
Deoxys-S-> Taunt X46
Entei-> Nope
Garchomp-Mega-> Nope
Haxorus-> Banded Poison Jab X47
Hydreigon-> No Taunters, so no
Infernape-> No
Keldeo-> No
Landorus-> Sludge Wave X48
Latias-Mega-> No
Nihilego-> oof X49
Ninetales-Alola-> Even with Freeze Dry, nope
Pidgeot-Mega-> Nope
Relicanth-> Nope
Thundurus-Therian-> Death X50
C- Rank
Hitmonlee-> Nope
Manectric-Mega-> Pain X51
Pyukumuku-> Slower, and Taunt X52
Quagsire-> Can be IV'd to be slower X53
Rhyperior-> Can be IV'd to be slower X54
Serperior-> Not enough Taunters, so no
Salazzle-> Poison STAB X55
Skarmory-> Taunt X56
Stakataka-> Slower X57
Suicune-> Nope
D Rank
Abomasnow-Mega-> Sap Ripper
Alakazam-Mega->Nope
Aron-> Slower, and kills before PSong even runs out X58
Azumarill-> Belly Drum and kill X59
Barbaracle-> Setup Z-move X60
Clefable-> Nope
Dusclops-> Slower X61
Sceptile-> Nope
Slaking-> Protected
Smeargle-> Lovely Kiss wins, but isn't really ran much, so Transform Speed ties N4
Stunfisk-> Can kill with Thunderbolt, if Azu doesn't run much special bulk X62
Type: Null->Nope
Vivillon->Slap Slipper
Volcanion->Specs hurts X63

63/113 different entries on the VR that can reliably check/counter Perish Song Azumarill-
So please, next time you consider calling something that people are arguing to be uncompetitive "not very good" (namely Sleep and Mimikyu), remember that Perish Song users "aren't very good", and then proceed to think about what it means for something to be uncompetitive.

Have a nice day.

 

[lost heros]

It would seem that a refresher on what "uncompetitive" even means is necessary.

Remember me?

not very good

X = Azumarill loses
N = Neither side wins reliably

S Rank
Gyarados-Mega->Taunt X1
A+ Rank
Charizard-Mega-X-> Lose
Dragonite-> Can kill with Z-Flying moves, but can get Protected N1
Magearna-> Just plain kills X2
Metagross-Mega-> 2HKO X3
Mimikyu-> Uses its own kind of Perish Song and then kills X4
A Rank
Charizard-Mega-Y->Sap Sipper OP
Landorus-Therian-> Same Z-move problems as Dragonite N2
Snorlax-> Belly Drum and death X5
Tapu Lele-> Pure destruction X6
Zygarde-Complete-> Not strong enough
A- Rank
Aegislash-> Metal Sound destroys X7
Genesect-> Specs Thunderbolt X8
Lopunny-Mega-> Can't kill
Magnezone-> Destruction X9
Mawile-Mega-> Can Taunt and/or 2HKO X10
Porygon-Z-> Non-Scarf nukes X11
Slowbro-Mega-> Can be IV-reduced to outslow X12
Venusaur-Mega-> 2HKOs X13
B+ Rank
Aggron-Mega-> Taunt/Speed ties X14
Blaziken-> Nope
Donphan-> Struggles killing without setup
Gardevoir-Mega-> CM and Hyper Beam kills X15
Golem-> Same problem as Donphan
Greninja-> lol, Gunk Shot?
Jumpluff-> S A P S I P P E R
Naganadel-> Death X16
Pinsir-Mega-> Sets up and kills X17
Primarina-> Struggles killing
Tapu Fini-> Can run Taunt X18
B Rank
Altaria-Mega-> Not strong enough, even with setup
Chansey-> Can Speed tie N3
Ferrothorn-> Slower X19
Garchomp-> Can kill with Band/Setup Z-move X20
Heatran-> Taunt X21
Heracross-Mega-> Sappage
Kartana-> Setup Z-move X22
Meloetta-> (Trick Room is viable on non PSong I swear) Setup Z-move X23
Mew-> Taunt X24
Necrozma-> Nuked X25
Sableye-Mega-> Taunt X26
Sawk-> Nope
Tyranitar-Mega-> Taunt apparently exists, if usage stats are to be believed X27
B- Rank

Blastoise-Mega-> Nope
Blissey-> 5 points too fast
Buzzwole-> Nope
Celesteela-> Metal Sound Z-move X28
Crustle-> Setup Z-move X29
Diancie-Mega-> Nope
Durant-> It can flinch, but not reliable
Gengar-Mega-> STAB move/Taunt X30
Hoopa-Unbound-> Setup Z-move/Choice coverage move X31
Kommo-o-> Taunt X32
Swampert-Mega-> Nope
Togekiss-> That's a lotta flinches you need
Whimsicott-> Taunt X33
C+ Rank
Archeops-> Wins, as long as it hits X34
Avalugg-> Slower X35
Camerupt-Mega-> Slower X36
Carracosta-> Setup Z-move X37
Excadrill-> Setup Z-move X38
Gallade-Mega-> Doesn't run Taunt often, so nope
Latios-> Can kill, depending on EVs, or just Specs Thunderbolt X39
Lucario-Mega-> Nope
Marowak-Alola-> Nope
Medicham-Mega-> Thunder Punch X40
Pheromosa-> Nope
Porygon2-> Nope
Scizor-Mega-> Curse X41
Tapu Bulu-> Taunt X42
Terrakion-> Setup Z-move X43
Umbreon-> Little to no Taunt users, so nope
Victini-> Bolt Strike X44
Volcarona-> Nope
C Rank
Blacephalon-> Specs Shadow Ball/Trick X45
Deoxys-S-> Taunt X46
Entei-> Nope
Garchomp-Mega-> Nope
Haxorus-> Banded Poison Jab X47
Hydreigon-> No Taunters, so no
Infernape-> No
Keldeo-> No
Landorus-> Sludge Wave X48
Latias-Mega-> No
Nihilego-> oof X49
Ninetales-Alola-> Even with Freeze Dry, nope
Pidgeot-Mega-> Nope
Relicanth-> Nope
Thundurus-Therian-> Death X50
C- Rank
Hitmonlee-> Nope
Manectric-Mega-> Pain X51
Pyukumuku-> Slower, and Taunt X52
Quagsire-> Can be IV'd to be slower X53
Rhyperior-> Can be IV'd to be slower X54
Serperior-> Not enough Taunters, so no
Salazzle-> Poison STAB X55
Skarmory-> Taunt X56
Stakataka-> Slower X57
Suicune-> Nope
D Rank
Abomasnow-Mega-> Sap Ripper
Alakazam-Mega->Nope
Aron-> Slower, and kills before PSong even runs out X58
Azumarill-> Belly Drum and kill X59
Barbaracle-> Setup Z-move X60
Clefable-> Nope
Dusclops-> Slower X61
Sceptile-> Nope
Slaking-> Protected
Smeargle-> Lovely Kiss wins, but isn't really ran much, so Transform Speed ties N4
Stunfisk-> Can kill with Thunderbolt, if Azu doesn't run much special bulk X62
Type: Null->Nope
Vivillon->Slap Slipper
Volcanion->Specs hurts X63

63/113 different entries on the VR that can reliably check/counter Perish Song Azumarill-
So please, next time you consider calling something that people are arguing to be uncompetitive "not very good" (namely Sleep and Mimikyu), remember that Perish Song users "aren't very good", and then proceed to think about what it means for something to be uncompetitive.

Have a nice day.

I don’t know what your point is here.

Azumarill wasn’t the main offender with perish song in gen 6, Meloetta was. And this generation Primarina and Marowak-Alola were also using it.

Perish Song was never really considered uncompetitive. It was flat out broken. Magic Coat from Meloetta was super painful for any Pokémon that tried to taunt it and thanks to normalium Z, Taunt no longer always worked on it. If you taunted, they could still Z-perish Song, and if you attacked they could perish song in to protect into Z-refresh to heal.

But that wasn’t even the main issue with Perish song. Perish song completely and utterly edged out every form of stall and many forms of Bulky Offense. The metagame warped around it in a super unhealthy way.

Sleep on the other hand, has a variety of different uses and users, doesn't invalidate certain play, and also no one including yourself is trying to argue that sleep is broken.

 

[BidoofiumZ]

My personal thoughts on Mimikyu is that it issues lay in Its disguise ability allowing it a guaranteed curse. However, I must say I have found mimikyu rather easy to break in more recent days, utilising Lando-T, Magneton, and of course excadrill.
Mimikyu does **not** invalidate any play style, and whilst similar on paper curse and perish song should not be compared.
I'm not going to turn this into a ban sleep post, but well I guess I am lol
In a video that Itz gator made (bare with me here) he did a game where he 1v6d OU bottom ladder with Chansey. A point that I recognised was when he gets frozen and jokingly, he says 'he froze my whole team'. Isn't sleep the same? There is counterplay, but after team preview what's done is done. Sleep can be a win condition no one can control- once your mon is asleep, your whole team is immobilized.

I know calling sleep a blanket for all users is unreasonable, and that is fair, but sleep in 1v1 seems ridiculous, in OU can switch and you don't fall asleep due to the sleep clause mod, so why isn't there a variation on it in 1v1? Just food for thought, I know this has been said.

I guess I agree that sleep does not invalidate any play in particular. Also sidenote there is nothing extra broken about 100% accuracy seep, with 3 semi-viable users of Spore. The fact that 100% sleep is considered to be more broken than sleep that can miss is an acknowledgement that a counter to sleep is hoping it misses.

 

[BidoofiumZ]

More detailed sleep post/video coming soon. In the meantime, here's a Sleep Pokemon that doesn't rely on any luck at all to operate:

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Substitute
- Protect
- Leech Seed

If you outspeed a standard attacker, you win. Even in the event of a first turn wake, they'll just hit your Substitute and you can Spore again the following turn. You aren't limited to 4 Substitutes either - with Poison Heal and Protect you have virtually unlimited chances to get your Leech Seed off from behind a Substitute. This Pokemon wins or loses based completely on matchup, not RNG.

Point is, not every sleep user is the same (obviously) but some rely on hax far less than others. I can see an argument for why M-Gengar is uncompetitive due to excessive hax dependence. I don't see the same reasoning applied to Breloom.

This set works better with snatch imo, becomes more of a blanket check to the meta. I don't mind if you include it in a vid tho, it's easy to beat and if it will be all over the ladder I'm down. Snatch also has +5 priority allowing you to beat most lopunny users

 

[ryyjyywyy]

I'm not going to turn this into a ban sleep post, but well I guess I am lol
In a video that Itz gator made (bare with me here) he did a game where he 1v6d OU bottom ladder with Chansey. A point that I recognised was when he gets frozen and jokingly, he says 'he froze my whole team'. Isn't sleep the same? There is counterplay, but after team preview what's done is done. Sleep can be a win condition no one can control- once your mon is asleep, your whole team is immobilized.

Idk what ur trying to say here tbh. someone 1v6ing a bottom ladder team in 6v6 has nothing to do with 1v1. after team preview its always done in 1v1. if there is a pz vs anything that loses to pz whats done is done. ?_?. 1v1 is a team preview game. also >whole team in 1v1 xd. it can easily be controlled but ok.

I know calling sleep a blanket for all users is unreasonable, and that is fair, but sleep in 1v1 seems ridiculous, in OU can switch and you don't fall asleep due to the sleep clause mod, so why isn't there a variation on it in 1v1? Just food for thought, I know this has been said.

probs cus 1v1 uses 1 mon and sleep clause limits to 1 mon at a time ?_?.

I guess I agree that sleep does not invalidate any play in particular. Also sidenote there is nothing extra broken about 100% accuracy seep, with 3 semi-viable users of Spore. The fact that 100% sleep is considered to be more broken than sleep that can miss is an acknowledgement that a counter to sleep is hoping it misses.

a counter to hoping you beat a pz is hoping they miss. idk what this post is tbh.

 

[BidoofiumZ]

Idk what ur trying to say here tbh. someone 1v6ing a bottom ladder team in 6v6 has nothing to do with 1v1. after team preview its always done in 1v1. if there is a pz vs anything that loses to pz whats done is done. ?_?. 1v1 is a team preview game. also >whole team in 1v1 xd. it can easily be controlled but ok.

probs cus 1v1 uses 1 mon and sleep clause limits to 1 mon at a time ?_?.

a counter to hoping you beat a pz is hoping they miss. idk what this post is tbh.

Ok i'll admit to being cryptic, I meant that if you fall asleep there is no counterplay and that in OU there is due to the sleep clause. In 1v1, sleep clause would be well, banning sleep.
My last point about missing is valid.

 

[BidoofiumZ]

PZ missing a hyperbeam is a wincon yes, just like venusaur missing sleep powder could be. I am sorry for introducing metaphors, we should be focusing on the actual matters at hand. I have definitely made points less eloquently than others here, and I would like to say I agree with almost every argument Gojirra poop made.

We should not be banning 100% sleep over any others, imo, for the reasons I detailed.

 

[ryyjyywyy]

Ok i'll admit to being cryptic, I meant that if you fall asleep there is no counterplay and that in OU there is due to the sleep clause. In 1v1, sleep clause would be well, banning sleep.
My last point about missing is valid.

there is plenty of counterplay to sleep. if you die you cant "counter play" either if you mean a mon can beat the mon if it doesnt use a move that can win. sleep is basically just another type of move that allows you to win certain matchups. banning sleep wouldnt be a sleep clause also xd. ur last point isnt valid. if you are in an unfavored matchup your only hope to winning is hoping they miss if their move can miss. example: hoping pz misses hyper beam. hoping zard y missing blast burn. sleep acts exactly like any other move that wins.
also

PZ missing a hyperbeam is a wincon yes, just like venusaur missing sleep powder could be. I am sorry for introducing metaphors, we should be focusing on the actual matters at hand. I have definitely made points less eloquently than others here, and I would like to say I agree with almost every argument Gojirra poop made.

We should not be banning 100% sleep over any others, imo, for the reasons I detailed.

the poll you posted has 0 relevance in a ban debate. room polls include all users, including dumb/bad/random users. Im also confused how we arent focusing on the matters at hand

 

[BidoofiumZ]

there is plenty of counterplay to sleep. if you die you cant "counter play" either if you mean a mon can beat the mon if it doesnt use a move that can win. sleep is basically just another type of move that allows you to win certain matchups. banning sleep wouldnt be a sleep clause also xd. ur last point isnt valid. if you are in an unfavored matchup your only hope to winning is hoping they miss if their move can miss. example: hoping pz misses hyper beam. hoping zard y missing blast burn. sleep acts exactly like any other move that wins.
also

the poll you posted has 0 relevance in a ban debate. room polls include all users, including dumb/bad/random users. Im also confused how we arent focusing on the matters at hand

Hi yeah sorry the room poll inclusion was just talking about accuracy, and I was explaining why it crossed my mind. Agreed about the actual poll results. I will be making a proper post regarding sleep later, probably

 

[motogp]

mini post to clarify some stuff
mega post incoming in a week

1.Mega Gyarados is not a Mimikyu counter
any offensive Mimikyu variant with proper EVs hard counters Gyarados
more research into posts would be appreciated
In the same category,Heatran is not a Mimikyu counter,it's a check because Rock Tomb fails to break Substitute
Talking about Mimikyu,anything that doesn't ohko turn 1 or doesn't have access to Taunt or doesn't out speed after paralyze toon CAN lose to Curse/Thunder Wave,therefore a big portion of MaceMaster's points is invalidated
(You also did not account for a few Charizard hard counters such as Z-Rain Dance Tapu Fini,Z-Rain Dance Azumarill,OO Primarina with Aqua Jet etc. or for 50/50s in both matchups,such as Taunt Cursekyu vs Taunt users and Crustle with Sub/WoW CharX/Rock Tomb Earthquake CharX vs Heatran which brings me to my next point)
2.When comparing 2 pokemon,if you account for every set of X you should also account for every set of Y and be OBJECTIVE
Ghostium Mimikyu with Swords Dance and Shadow Sneak defeats Nihilego
Heck even Lum Berry Mimikyu can reliably beat Heatran and Magnezone if it comes to that
You may regard those as unsets,or feel that you shouldn't include everything in order to make your point,but in such posts nothing is an unset and the second is plain subjectiveness
End of section directed towards MaceMaster specifically (reminder that those should apply for everyone,I just took Mace's post as a prime example)
3."Don't ban X because it gets hard countered by Y and Y is a popular pokemon"
Kyurem-Black was banned albeit being hard countered by Mega Metagross
Tapu Koko was banned albeit being hard countered by Mega Venusaur
Please don't bring that up as a point in order to support not banning something
4.Smogon Philosophy regards anything RNG reliant as uncompetitive
this does include sleep and paralyzation,but NOT moves missing as ryyjyywyy would point out,since they are something you do take account for when building a pokemon,while sleep rolls and your pokemon getting paralyzed are entirely odds reliant
+anything that could be blamed to RNG with lower odds of happening than not happening can be regarded as hax and uncompetitive
Zap Cannon is a borderline uncompetitive move
Inferno isn't uncompetitive
Moves like Focus Blast and Thunder have a higher chance of hitting than not hitting and therefore are not uncompetitive
Sleep rolls CAN determine a matchup from RNG
low accuracy moves can NOT
hence why there is a sleep clause in 6v6
Anyone who does not understand can PM me on Pokemon Showdown for clarification
if you think this post is subjective feel free to inform me

 

[BidoofiumZ]

mini post to clarify some stuff
mega post incoming in a week

1.Mega Gyarados is not a Mimikyu counter
any offensive Mimikyu variant with proper EVs hard counters Gyarados
more research into posts would be appreciated
In the same category,Heatran is not a Mimikyu counter,it's a check because Rock Tomb fails to break Substitute
Talking about Mimikyu,anything that doesn't ohko turn 1 or doesn't have access to Taunt or doesn't out speed after paralyze toon CAN lose to Curse/Thunder Wave,therefore a big portion of MaceMaster's points is invalidated
(You also did not account for a few Charizard hard counters such as Z-Rain Dance Tapu Fini,Z-Rain Dance Azumarill,OO Primarina with Aqua Jet etc. or for 50/50s in both matchups,such as Taunt Cursekyu vs Taunt users and Crustle with Sub/WoW CharX/Rock Tomb Earthquake CharX vs Heatran which brings me to my next point)
2.When comparing 2 pokemon,if you account for every set of X you should also account for every set of Y and be OBJECTIVE
Ghostium Mimikyu with Swords Dance and Shadow Sneak defeats Nihilego
Heck even Lum Berry Mimikyu can reliably beat Heatran and Magnezone if it comes to that
You may regard those as unsets,or feel that you shouldn't include everything in order to make your point,but in such posts nothing is an unset and the second is plain subjectiveness
End of section directed towards MaceMaster specifically (reminder that those should apply for everyone,I just took Mace's post as a prime example)
3."Don't ban X because it gets hard countered by Y and Y is a popular pokemon"
Kyurem-Black was banned albeit being hard countered by Mega Metagross
Tapu Koko was banned albeit being hard countered by Mega Venusaur
Please don't bring that up as a point in order to support not banning something
4.Smogon Philosophy regards anything RNG reliant as uncompetitive
this does include sleep and paralyzation,but NOT moves missing as ryyjyywyy would point out,since they are something you do take account for when building a pokemon,while sleep rolls and your pokemon getting paralyzed are entirely odds reliant
+anything that could be blamed to RNG with lower odds of happening than not happening can be regarded as hax and uncompetitive
Zap Cannon is a borderline uncompetitive move
Inferno isn't uncompetitive
Moves like Focus Blast and Thunder have a higher chance of hitting than not hitting and therefore are not uncompetitive
Sleep rolls CAN determine a matchup from RNG
low accuracy moves can NOT
hence why there is a sleep clause in 6v6
Anyone who does not understand can PM me on Pokemon Showdown for clarification
if you think this post is subjective feel free to inform me

MotoGP makes every point I could hope to make here and also reaffirms a lot of things I wanted to say, except, well he puts them well instead of the jumbled mess that mine was. Will be posting thoughts on mimik later