Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Dazel]

So on the topic of sleep and competitiveness, there's one argument in particular that I take umbrage with, in regards to the accuracy of regular attacks vs. the chance of getting enough sleep turns.

When moves with imperfect accuracy are brought up as a counterargument to sleep being un-competitive as it only has a 66% chance of winning you the match (in match-ups where only free turn is needed to hit win-con), the common rebuttal is so: "When you build your Pokemon, you choose the accuracy of your moves. You don't get to choose how many turns you're put to sleep for, this takes choice and skill out of the hands of the player, and is thus un-competitive." The problem I have with this, mainly lies in inconsistent logic regarding teambuilding. No, you don't get to choose the length of time you fall asleep, but you also don't get to choose the accuracy of your opponent's moves, only your own, and in this context, sleep's chances of success are very much something that the teambuilder chooses.
I think we can all agree that when you put Focus Blast on Gardevoir, you are accepting that you will have a 30% chance of losing matches where you need a Focus Blast to win, when you put Stone Edge on Durant, you're accepting that you will have a 36% chance of losing matches you need a Stone Edge to win, et cetera, and that neither these moves, nor these Pokemon, are un-competitive.
Yet for example, let's take the match-up of Hustle Durant vs. Mega Charizard Y.
Durant outspeeds Charizard, and easily OHKOs with a single Stone Edge, winning them the match. However, should that Stone Edge miss, all Charizard has to do is hit a single fire attack in order to OHKO Durant. The player using Durant, when building their team, chose Stone Edge as a coverage move for this match-up, and when making the Durant, decided that 64% accuracy to win a majority of the time against Charizard was acceptable. From the perspective of the Charizard player however, they have no choice but to rely on an RNG roll in order to win. In effect, they have been forced to leave this match-up entirely in the hands of whether or not the move lands or misses, which is entirely up to chance. No matter the skill of the Charizard player, all they can do is hope to get lucky and have the move miss. The skill and player choice was in building your Charizard and choosing it against your opponent, in effect, the majority of the time, you lost when you chose Charizard.
Now let's look at Snorlax vs Charizard Y.
Snorlax easily bulks any move that Charizard can throw at it, and yawns the same turn. A protect the following turn ensures that Charizard falls asleep, and Snorlax survives. On the third turn, Snorlax is free to Belly Drum, regardless of how much damage they've taken, thanks to Normalium. No RNG, outside of the errant crit or burn chance, has happened yet. Snorlax, with maximized attack, can now easily OHKO Charizard with one Double-Edge, provided Charizard does not wake up on the first turn it is able, of which it has a 33.34% chance of doing. The player using Snorlax, when building their team, chose Yawn as a status move for these match-ups, and when making the Snorlax, decided that a 66.66% chance of getting one free turn of sleep to win a majority of the time against its opponents was acceptable. From the perspective of the Charizard player however, they have no choice but to rely on an RNG roll in order to win. In effect, they have been forced to leave this match-up entirely in the hands of whether or not they wake up or not, which is entirely up to chance. No matter the skill of the Charizard player, all they can do is hope to get lucky and wake up. The skill and player choice was in building your Charizard and choosing it against your opponent, in effect, the majority of the time, you lost when you chose Charizard.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? In match-ups where a Yawn user only needs one free turn in order to win, there is ZERO qualitative difference between relying on sleep rolls to be in your favor, and relying on a low accuracy move landing. Both are reliant on RNG, and from the perspective of the player facing it, there is little to nothing that can be done once the match has started aside from clicking a button and hoping the opponent gets unlucky. Yes, when choosing a low accuracy move, you are choosing that with the knowledge that it may fail you and miss, and you accept that risk. However if a sleep move achieves a win-con the majority of the time, again when choosing the sleep move, you are choosing it with the knowledge that it may fail you and not give you enough sleep turns, and you accept that risk. Zero qualitative difference, and in the extreme of examples like Stone Edge Durant, Zap Cannon Magnezone, or Gardevoir needing to land two Focus Blasts in a row (a 49% chance), Yawn actually beats it out in terms of reliability, making it quantitatively less haxy.
This of course, all applies to Yawn. Other sleep moves have differing accuracy, and many users rely on more or fewer RNG rolls to hit their wincon, there's a sliding scale of RNG when it comes to sleep users, and it is entirely possible that the higher end, Gengar for example, might have far too many match-ups where more than one turn of sleep is needed, making it rely on 50/50s more often than not, but in order for that to be the case, there'd need to be a clear line set up for how many 50/50s against the VR does it take for a Pokemon to be considered completely RNG and hax reliant, and it would need to be proven that Gengar or any other Sleep user crosses that line.
However, that sliding scale also goes down well below the RNG reliance of 'regular' moves and strategies, with Snorlax, Jumpluff, Vivillon, Smeargle, and Breloom being just as reliable, if not more so, than 'regular' moves in many cases.

TL;DR, Sleep is statistically not any more un-competitive than low accuracy moves, of course you don't choose how many turns you're asleep, but neither do you choose the accuracy of your opponent's moves, you choose the accuracy of your own moves, and in the case of sleep, you choose the chances of how long your opponent will be asleep.

 

[edudittA]

So on the topic of sleep and competitiveness, there's one argument in particular that I take umbrage with, in regards to the accuracy of regular attacks vs. the chance of getting enough sleep turns.



TL;DR, Sleep is statistically not any more un-competitive than low accuracy moves, of course you don't choose how many turns you're asleep, but neither do you choose the accuracy of your opponent's moves, you choose the accuracy of your own moves, and in the case of sleep, you choose the chances of how long your opponent will be asleep.

A fair point you have brought up here, but I again see a gaping mistake in the argument in conjunction with another thrown in the context of sleep and uncompetitiveness - that if you have a team losing to a particular sleep user, the fault lies not with the sleep user itself, but with your team structure. One usually doesn't reply on a flimsy thread when a threat seems to overtake their team. In simpler terms, taking the examples you cited, if your team is weak to a Pokemon which necessarily needs you to land say a Gardevoir Focus Blast or a Durant Stone Edge, that can be considered bad team-building, since you are gambling on landing a move against a threat your team is evidently and obviously weak to. On the contrary, if you had just had an uncertain landing move as a filler or coverage without necessarily having to get it land to win a dire match-up, that is, if you had such a move which is not a life-or-death match-up, it is just plain askew predictions.

Sleep, on the other hand, is an entirely different ballgame; one's team does not necessarily lose to Snorlax because it depends on something luck-based from the Charizard player's side(citing your example) The problem in this case is the reliance on a factor which neither parties have control over, the number of sleep turns. I could wake up now, I could wake up next turn, I could wake up the turn later...... This takes the skill factor away from the game, and turns it into a "praying for a wake up ASAP" game. And, that is totally not skill-based.

 

[Felucia]

A fair point you have brought up here, but I again see a gaping mistake in the argument in conjunction with another thrown in the context of sleep and uncompetitiveness - that if you have a team losing to a particular sleep user, the fault lies not with the sleep user itself, but with your team structure. One usually doesn't reply on a flimsy thread when a threat seems to overtake their team. In simpler terms, taking the examples you cited, if your team is weak to a Pokemon which necessarily needs you to land say a Gardevoir Focus Blast or a Durant Stone Edge, that can be considered bad team-building, since you are gambling on landing a move against a threat your team is evidently and obviously weak to. On the contrary, if you had just had an uncertain landing move as a filler or coverage without necessarily having to get it land to win a dire match-up, that is, if you had such a move which is not a life-or-death match-up, it is just plain askew predictions.

Sleep, on the other hand, is an entirely different ballgame; one's team does not necessarily lose to Snorlax because it depends on something luck-based from the Charizard player's side(citing your example) The problem in this case is the reliance on a factor which neither parties have control over, the number of sleep turns. I could wake up now, I could wake up next turn, I could wake up the turn later...... This takes the skill factor away from the game, and turns it into a "praying for a wake up ASAP" game. And, that is totally not skill-based.

"praying you wake up" is not less skillful than "praying you hit"

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

"praying you wake up" is not less skillful than "praying you hit"

But having the coverage to beat a mon, even if it does have a chance to miss is skillful

 

[Nalei]

But having the coverage to beat a mon, even if it does have a chance to miss is skillful

Beating a mon with sleep, even though it has a chance to only get 1 turn, is skillful

 

[Tol]

Beating a mon with sleep, even though it has a chance to only get 1 turn, is skillful

The use of the word “skillful” in all these one-liners makes me want to know how you people quantify skill

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Beating a mon with sleep, even though it has a chance to only get 1 turn, is skillful

This is literally the opposite of skill? Just because it only has a one turn sleep possibility doesn’t make it skillful if you get three turns. I’m just confused by this

 

[Felucia]

This is literally the opposite of skill? Just because it only has a one turn sleep possibility doesn’t make it skillful if you get three turns. I’m just confused by this

Putting the move on your set in the first place can be considered a form of skill, as is using the sleep move. But more importantly: Skill involved with sleep is getting yourself in a position where you can win with sleep, I realize I'm stepping into smackable territory here (Osra have mercy), but I'm still going to say it:

If you pick Jumpluff vs Greninja and lose, that's lack of skill, if you pick Jumpluff against Durant and win, that's skillful.
If you pick Swampert against Landorus-T and lose because you used Yawn when they used Substitute, then that's not skillful, if you in the same matchup win because you used Yawn when they didn't use Substitute, that's skillful.

 

[Dazel]

The problem in this case is the reliance on a factor which neither parties have control over, the number of sleep turns. I could wake up now, I could wake up next turn, I could wake up the turn later...... This takes the skill factor away from the game, and turns it into a "praying for a wake up ASAP" game. And, that is totally not skill-based.

You literally don't have any more control over accuracy than you do over sleep. Both are completely down to RNG, the only difference being that a majority of attacking moves have more of a chance of hitting than of Sleep lasting at least one turn. A majority, not all. What's the difference between a "praying for a wake up turn 1" game, and a "praying for a miss" game? Statistically, there is none. The only difference that one could bring up is that there may be a difference in how often a certain Pokemon creates "pray for a miss" games or "praying for a wake up turn 1" game, which is a good segue into the next part.

Now, if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that low accuracy moves tend to be last ditch coverage to improve a poor match-up, whereas Sleep is typically the bread and butter of most bulky Yawn users or speed traps like Jumpluff or Vivillon. The problem is that I think this hurts your argument more than it helps it. According to you, if you need Zapdos to land one or two Thunders to win, if you need Durant to land a Stone Edge, in your mind, this entails poor teambuilding on the part of the user of Zapdos or Durant. That relying on a 70% chance, a 64% chance, or Heaven forbid a 49% chance in order to beat a threat that the team is either weak to, or simply to beat a misprediction means that the teambuilder is at fault for relying on an inconsistent option. If you run Durant at all, unless you're using a niche Truant Entrainment set, does this fall under your definition of poor team-building? Whenever you choose Durant, you're relying on inconsistent attacks in order to beat just about anything.
What I'm getting at here is that under the same definition, using Snorlax at all would seem to be poor teambuilding, as every match-up where you can't immediately KO with Breakneck, or use smart plays in order to get the Belly Drum off the turn immediately following the Yawn (funny, that sounds a lot like skill, something sleep is supposed to completely and utterly lack), relies on a 66% chance at best of winning. If it's poor teambuilding to rely on low accuracy, then it's poor teambuilding to rely on sleep, of course simply using Yawn users as the example, who typically have a 66% chance of beating what they're supposed to, and only using Pokemon as an example whose entire wincon is established through Sleep, unlike say Venusaur who uses Sleep Powder to improve its match-ups and not decide them, Jumpluff who is simply far more consistent, or Vivillon who basically uses next to no luck, just relying on a 91% accuracy move and subbing in order to sleep over and over, running the numbers until it eventually gets the one free turn it needs.

Point is, I really fail to see how a Pokemon relying on a worse option sometimes is okay vs. a Pokemon predicated on the worse option, when the argument for banning Sleep is on the principle of the worse option being bad all the time, no matter who uses it, that it's something that shouldn't be allowed to be used in any circumstances. If you want to ban Sleep with the reasoning that using a move that grants a 66% win chance is un-competitive, you'd have to follow through on that and ban everything that grants similar chances of winning. If Sleep, as a concept, and as a strategy, is so fundamentally broken that it doesn't matter who uses it and how often they use it in comparison to other options, then low accuracy moves, as concepts, as strategies, are fundamentally broken, so that it doesn't matter how many threats Gardevoir has to Focus Blast. It doesn't matter how many threats Durant has to Stone Edge or just hit with any physical move, the core fundamental strategy of using highly powered but inaccurate moves are un-competitive and deserve a ban.

 

[edudittA]

You literally don't have any more control over accuracy than you do over sleep. Both are completely down to RNG, the only difference being that a majority of attacking moves have more of a chance of hitting than of Sleep lasting at least one turn. A majority, not all. What's the difference between a "praying for a wake up turn 1" game, and a "praying for a miss" game? Statistically, there is none. The only difference that one could bring up is that there may be a difference in how often a certain Pokemon creates "pray for a miss" games or "praying for a wake up turn 1" game, which is a good segue into the next part.

Now, if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that low accuracy moves tend to be last ditch coverage to improve a poor match-up, whereas Sleep is typically the bread and butter of most bulky Yawn users or speed traps like Jumpluff or Vivillon. The problem is that I think this hurts your argument more than it helps it. According to you, if you need Zapdos to land one or two Thunders to win, if you need Durant to land a Stone Edge, in your mind, this entails poor teambuilding on the part of the user of Zapdos or Durant. That relying on a 70% chance, a 64% chance, or Heaven forbid a 49% chance in order to beat a threat that the team is either weak to, or simply to beat a misprediction means that the teambuilder is at fault for relying on an inconsistent option. If you run Durant at all, unless you're using a niche Truant Entrainment set, does this fall under your definition of poor team-building? Whenever you choose Durant, you're relying on inconsistent attacks in order to beat just about anything.
What I'm getting at here is that under the same definition, using Snorlax at all would seem to be poor teambuilding, as every match-up where you can't immediately KO with Breakneck, or use smart plays in order to get the Belly Drum off the turn immediately following the Yawn (funny, that sounds a lot like skill, something sleep is supposed to completely and utterly lack), relies on a 66% chance at best of winning. If it's poor teambuilding to rely on low accuracy, then it's poor teambuilding to rely on sleep, of course simply using Yawn users as the example, who typically have a 66% chance of beating what they're supposed to, and only using Pokemon as an example whose entire wincon is established through Sleep, unlike say Venusaur who uses Sleep Powder to improve its match-ups and not decide them, Jumpluff who is simply far more consistent, or Vivillon who basically uses next to no luck, just relying on a 91% accuracy move and subbing in order to sleep over and over, running the numbers until it eventually gets the one free turn it needs.

Point is, I really fail to see how a Pokemon relying on a worse option sometimes is okay vs. a Pokemon predicated on the worse option, when the argument for banning Sleep is on the principle of the worse option being bad all the time, no matter who uses it, that it's something that shouldn't be allowed to be used in any circumstances. If you want to ban Sleep with the reasoning that using a move that grants a 66% win chance is un-competitive, you'd have to follow through on that and ban everything that grants similar chances of winning. If Sleep, as a concept, and as a strategy, is so fundamentally broken that it doesn't matter who uses it and how often they use it in comparison to other options, then low accuracy moves, as concepts, as strategies, are fundamentally broken, so that it doesn't matter how many threats Gardevoir has to Focus Blast. It doesn't matter how many threats Durant has to Stone Edge or just hit with any physical move, the core fundamental strategy of using highly powered but inaccurate moves are un-competitive and deserve a ban.

I said this in room, and I say it now - no words to counter this. Too good logic, you nearly have me convinced of the other side... (A filler post, expect a larger one here soon)

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

According to you, if you need Zapdos to land one or two Thunders to win, if you need Durant to land a Stone Edge, in your mind, this entails poor teambuilding on the part of the user of Zapdos or Durant. That relying on a 70% chance, a 64% chance, or Heaven forbid a 49% chance in order to beat a threat that the team is either weak to, or simply to beat a misprediction means that the teambuilder is at fault for relying on an inconsistent option.

This is just incorrect. Lets say my team loses to Heatran so I focus blast on my specs deoxys, this is not bad teambuilding. This is giving me a favorable matchup to beat the mon where before I could not beat it at all.

(funny, that sounds a lot like skill, something sleep is supposed to completely and utterly lack

We've already been over this, sleep that only has to last one turn for the user to win is skill based as with yawn pokemon this turn is skill based as it is in your favor, look on previous pages for more explanation, I dont feel like linking
The sleep that isn't skill based is when you need 2 or more turns to win as this is not in your favor.

Point is, I really fail to see how a Pokemon relying on a worse option sometimes is okay vs. a Pokemon predicated on the worse option, when the argument for banning Sleep is on the principle of the worse option being bad all the time, no matter who uses it, that it's something that shouldn't be allowed to be used in any circumstances. If you want to ban Sleep with the reasoning that using a move that grants a 66% win chance is un-competitive, you'd have to follow through on that and ban everything that grants similar chances of winning. If Sleep, as a concept, and as a strategy, is so fundamentally broken that it doesn't matter who uses it and how often they use it in comparison to other options, then low accuracy moves, as concepts, as strategies, are fundamentally broken, so that it doesn't matter how many threats Gardevoir has to Focus Blast. It doesn't matter how many threats Durant has to Stone Edge or just hit with any physical move, the core fundamental strategy of using highly powered but inaccurate moves are un-competitive and deserve a ban.

Here is the thing, if you are saying inaccurate moves deserve a ban (which is totally ludicrous), then I don't understand why you wouldn't also be pro sleep ban. If you are pro banning rng then we should ban all rng which includes sleep.
I'm still confused how one could possibly think banning stone edge durrant could be good for the meta.

 

[Dazel]

This is just incorrect. Lets say my team loses to Heatran so I focus blast on my specs deoxys, this is not bad teambuilding. This is giving me a favorable matchup to beat the mon where before I could not beat it at all.

I wasn't saying that I personally view relying on low accuracy coverage moves as moves to improve a team's weak match-ups as bad teambuilding, but as a response to what appeared to be part of Atti's argument. I personally don't view relying on these moves as being poor teambuilding at all.

We've already been over this, sleep that only has to last one turn for the user to win is skill based as with yawn pokemon this turn is skill based as it is in your favor, look on previous pages for more explanation, I dont feel like linking
The sleep that isn't skill based is when you need 2 or more turns to win as this is not in your favor.

The majority of Sleep users are built around only needing one extra turn. Snorlax likes to set up and OHKO, Smeargle needs one turn to Imprison freely, Jumpluff and Vivillon just need one free sub, Venusaur and bulky non-setup Yawn users are tanky enough to sleep multiple times, or just out-damage once it's assured to get an extra attack in. The crux of the strategy is usually built around just getting one free turn. Should some Pokemon in particular -Gengar and Snorlax seem like prime examples- need multiple free turns of sleep consistently in a large enough group of match-ups as to be consistently haxy and RNG reliant, then those Pokemon should be suspected or banned, but banning Sleep in its entirety, when a majority of its users don't primarily rely on luck at all, would be akin to banning Electrium because Koko could OHKO too much with a Gigavolt, or banning Serene Grace instead of Jirachi, which actually has the counter-point of Togekiss and Sawsbuck doing the exact same thing as Jirachi, just not in as problematic of a way, as well as the fact that a Serene Grace ban would catch Meloetta as well. Take a good, hard look at Snorlax and Gengar, don't demote a dozen Pokemon who don't use an un-competitive strategy simply because two broken Pokemon can use the same.

Here is the thing, if you are saying inaccurate moves deserve a ban (which is totally ludicrous), then I don't understand why you wouldn't also be pro sleep ban. If you are pro banning rng then we should ban all rng which includes sleep.
I'm still confused how one could possibly think banning stone edge durrant could be good for the meta.

I guess this wasn't clear, but I don't in any way support banning inaccurate moves or Hustle, it's meant as a rhetorical device, taking the same logic with which one might say that Sleep deserves to be banned, and applying it to moves with poor accuracy. Obviously Hustle shouldn't be banned, but if your argument for Sleep being un-competitive lies in sleep rolls being RNG, there's no logical basis to not also believe that Hustle is un-competitive.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

So I'm going to ignore the incorrect part about serene grace because it has nothing to do with this convo, moving on.

The majority of Sleep users are built around only needing one extra turn. Snorlax likes to set up and OHKO, Smeargle needs one turn to Imprison freely, Jumpluff and Vivillon just need one free sub, Venusaur and bulky non-setup Yawn users are tanky enough to sleep multiple times, or just out-damage once it's assured to get an extra attack in. The crux of the strategy is usually built around just getting one free turn. Should some Pokemon in particular -Gengar and Snorlax seem like prime examples

I'm confused by you saying that Snorlax likes a free turn and then turning around and saying it is hax dependent. Also Pokemon being bulky enough to get more than one sleep off isn't a justification for why it shouldn't be banned. Venusaur-Mega is one of the biggest culprits as yes it is tanky enough to take one hit and use sleep, but then it relies on rng to get 2-3 sleep turns on pokemon like Mega-Metagross and others that deal 75+%
There's your 3 mons needed for a move ban if you were counting btw

Obviously Hustle shouldn't be banned, but if your argument for Sleep being un-competitive lies in sleep rolls being RNG, there's no logical basis to not also believe that Hustle is un-competitive.

The difference between sleep and move accuracy is that the chance of hitting a move is higher than getting multiple sleep turns. We are not discussing banning low accuracy moves so why bring it up. I personally don't understand the use of this to justify keeping sleep. Lets pretend that sleep moves and low accuracy moves have the same amount of rng, just for an example. Saying we shouldn't ban one because the other is just as broken is like saying back when Kyurem-Black was not banned that we should keep it because Jirachi is just as broken so why ban Kyub. It makes no sense. Please just stop comparing the two.

 

[The Official Glyx]

You literally don't have any more control over accuracy than you do over sleep. Both are completely down to RNG, the only difference being that a majority of attacking moves have more of a chance of hitting than of Sleep lasting at least one turn. A majority, not all. What's the difference between a "praying for a wake up turn 1" game, and a "praying for a miss" game? Statistically, there is none. The only difference that one could bring up is that there may be a difference in how often a certain Pokemon creates "pray for a miss" games or "praying for a wake up turn 1" game, which is a good segue into the next part.

The difference is that you're not using that low accuracy move in every matchup, while you ARE using that low probability Sleep move in most, if not all, matchups. I even shared with you my post on how "haxy" attacking moves have to factor in dealing damage, yet you choose to ignore that. Statistically, Sleep moves enforce further rolls beyond whether or not they simply hit (see: Sleep Counter¹). At the end of the day, it is most important to remember that the status itself is what is at question in regards to whether or not it is competitive to have your Pokemon be rendered useless for a randomly selected number of turns from 1-3. The moves that have no function besides triggering Sleep upon the opponents would have to be banned, as you cannot physically ban the status itself (to my knowledge).

Now, if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that low accuracy moves tend to be last ditch coverage to improve a poor match-up, whereas Sleep is typically the bread and butter of most bulky Yawn users or speed traps like Jumpluff or Vivillon. The problem is that I think this hurts your argument more than it helps it. According to you, if you need Zapdos to land one or two Thunders to win, if you need Durant to land a Stone Edge, in your mind, this entails poor teambuilding on the part of the user of Zapdos or Durant. That relying on a 70% chance, a 64% chance, or Heaven forbid a 49% chance in order to beat a threat that the team is either weak to, or simply to beat a misprediction means that the teambuilder is at fault for relying on an inconsistent option. If you run Durant at all, unless you're using a niche Truant Entrainment set, does this fall under your definition of poor team-building? Whenever you choose Durant, you're relying on inconsistent attacks in order to beat just about anything.

You're correct in the sense that the use of low accuracy moves is not bad teambuilding. Abilities like Hustle and moves like Focus Blast and Blizzard give Pokemon a better opportunity to beat things that they otherwise cannot with any other move, which pertains to the aspect of Skill in regards to Catering to Catering to Metagame / Opponents, as well as Assessing and Dealing with Threats, since any chance to win matchups is better than no chance. The difference, however, is that Sleep turns add an extra RNG element in such a way that simply hitting or missing your moves cannot emulate.

What I'm getting at here is that under the same definition, using Snorlax at all would seem to be poor teambuilding, as every match-up where you can't immediately KO with Breakneck, or use smart plays in order to get the Belly Drum off the turn immediately following the Yawn (funny, that sounds a lot like skill, something sleep is supposed to completely and utterly lack), relies on a 66% chance at best of winning. If it's poor teambuilding to rely on low accuracy, then it's poor teambuilding to rely on sleep, of course simply using Yawn users as the example, who typically have a 66% chance of beating what they're supposed to, and only using Pokemon as an example whose entire wincon is established through Sleep, unlike say Venusaur who uses Sleep Powder to improve its match-ups and not decide them, Jumpluff who is simply far more consistent, or Vivillon who basically uses next to no luck, just relying on a 91% accuracy move and subbing in order to sleep over and over, running the numbers until it eventually gets the one free turn it needs.

The aforementioned "smart plays" you can make while the opponent is awake does not pertain to the inhibiting effect on Skill that Sleep enforces. Secondarily, I would dare to suggest that Yawn itself is not a proper Sleep move, on the grounds that it always allows the opponent two turns to do something before being put to Sleep (one if using Protect on the second turn). This acts in contrast to all other Sleep inducing moves that immediately render opponents unable to do anything, and is likely the reason why Yawn is not included in the list of Sleep moves that can be found through use of the /ms sleep command, while Relic Song IS included in the list.

In regards to the matter of Speed Traps², I believe they should be treated as separate entities from Sleep in general, though most of them do rely on Sleep. The problem with Speed Traps is that they win battles solely by being faster than the opponent, thus allowing them to set up their win condition with little to no risk of taking damage. This kind of strategy falls in line with Baton Pass where, once set up, the opponent is physically incapable of doing anything to stop you, effectively rendering the battle into a loss at preview, which falls in line with Smogon's definition of being Uncompetitive³. This isn't entirely as black and white as it is in 6v6 tiers, since matchups like Charizard vs Ferrothorn and Gyarados vs Golem are also automatically won as soon as the Pokemon are sent out, but it is still to my belief that Speed Traps function on a much more broader sense of instantly winning than these narrow examples.

Point is, I really fail to see how a Pokemon relying on a worse option sometimes is okay vs. a Pokemon predicated on the worse option, when the argument for banning Sleep is on the principle of the worse option being bad all the time, no matter who uses it, that it's something that shouldn't be allowed to be used in any circumstances. If you want to ban Sleep with the reasoning that using a move that grants a 66% win chance is un-competitive, you'd have to follow through on that and ban everything that grants similar chances of winning. If Sleep, as a concept, and as a strategy, is so fundamentally broken that it doesn't matter who uses it and how often they use it in comparison to other options, then low accuracy moves, as concepts, as strategies, are fundamentally broken, so that it doesn't matter how many threats Gardevoir has to Focus Blast. It doesn't matter how many threats Durant has to Stone Edge or just hit with any physical move, the core fundamental strategy of using highly powered but inaccurate moves are un-competitive and deserve a ban.

A move or strategy's raw chance of succeeding is not the only defining factor that goes into bans. OHKO moves only work 30% of the time, and yet they still remain banned for similar reasons being brought up for Sleep abuse. You should really read up on Smogon's Tiering Policy Framework to get a feeling for how bans are or at least should be handled.

The majority of Sleep users are built around only needing one extra turn. Snorlax likes to set up and OHKO, Smeargle needs one turn to Imprison freely, Jumpluff and Vivillon just need one free sub, Venusaur and bulky non-setup Yawn users are tanky enough to sleep multiple times, or just out-damage once it's assured to get an extra attack in. The crux of the strategy is usually built around just getting one free turn. Should some Pokemon in particular -Gengar and Snorlax seem like prime examples- need multiple free turns of sleep consistently in a large enough group of match-ups as to be consistently haxy and RNG reliant, then those Pokemon should be suspected or banned, but banning Sleep in its entirety, when a majority of its users don't primarily rely on luck at all, would be akin to banning Electrium because Koko could OHKO too much with a Gigavolt, or banning Serene Grace instead of Jirachi, which actually has the counter-point of Togekiss and Sawsbuck doing the exact same thing as Jirachi, just not in as problematic of a way, as well as the fact that a Serene Grace ban would catch Meloetta as well. Take a good, hard look at Snorlax and Gengar, don't demote a dozen Pokemon who don't use an un-competitive strategy simply because two broken Pokemon can use the same.

Being an element on more than just a single Pokemon has always been how Smogon handles broader bans (see: Soul Dew>Latios/Latias, Shadow Tag>Gothitelle/Wobbuffet, Drought>Ninetales/Torkoal, etc). Because Tapu Koko itself was Broken with Electrium while no other Pokemon that use Electrium were, Tapu Koko was instead banned, as it was the only abuser of Electrium to become Broken because of it. On the opposite side of that; if more than one Speed Trap and/or Sleep abuser is considered Uncompetitive, to the extent of justifying a ban, then it would warrant a broader ban to the shared element that makes these Pokemon Uncompetitive, rather than banning each individual Pokemon.

¹

The Sleep Counter, as we know it, is the randomly defined element of the Sleep Status condition that determines how long the afflicted Pokemon stays asleep, based on a 1-3 roll. More information on Sleep as a status condition can be found on Bulbapedia and Showdown's own source code.

²

Speed Traps are Pokemon who take advantage of non-attacking factors such to the extent that they can reliably set up win conditions which allow the users to win battles without the risk of taking damage, as long as the users move first (see: Mimikyu, Jumpluff, Vivillon, Breloom, Smeargle, Yanma, Jynx, Venonat, etc.).

³

Uncompetitive is a term designed to refer to an element in Pokemon battles that is considered unsportsmanlike or unfair. These are elements that even the best player cannot do anything about when faced with them, such as hitting below the belt in a boxing match, bringing a gun to a sword fight, or spamming one attack in a fighting game.

 

[Tol]

“Uncompetitive is a term designed to refer to an element in Pokemon battles that is considered unsportsmanlike or unfair. These are elements that even the best player cannot do anything about when faced with them, such as hitting below the belt in a boxing match, bringing a gun to a sword fight, or spamming one attack in a fighting game.”
What does any of this have to do with 1v1? I would be willing to bet that even the very best 1v1 players could not do anything about a CharizardY vs Terrakion matchup. Is this particularly unsportsmanlike? No. To keep this from happening, the charizard player might also have something to beat terrakion on their team. If you lose to sleep, run a counter! As for spamming one move, it is clear that the council does not see that as uncompetitive, as neither Sawsbuck nor Togekiss were banned with Jirachi.

 

[The Official Glyx]

“Uncompetitive is a term designed to refer to an element in Pokemon battles that is considered unsportsmanlike or unfair. These are elements that even the best player cannot do anything about when faced with them, such as hitting below the belt in a boxing match, bringing a gun to a sword fight, or spamming one attack in a fighting game.”
What does any of this have to do with 1v1? I would be willing to bet that even the very best 1v1 players could not do anything about a CharizardY vs Terrakion matchup. Is this particularly unsportsmanlike? No. To keep this from happening, the charizard player might also have something to beat terrakion on their team. If you lose to sleep, run a counter! As for spamming one move, it is clear that the council does not see that as uncompetitive, as neither Sawsbuck nor Togekiss were banned with Jirachi.

This isn't entirely as black and white as it is in 6v6 tiers, since matchups like Charizard vs Ferrothorn and Gyarados vs Golem are also automatically won as soon as the Pokemon are sent out, but it is still to my belief that Speed Traps function on a much more broader sense of instantly winning than these narrow examples.

or spamming one attack in a fighting game.

Take a bit more time to read thoroughly, please.

 

[Dazel]

I'm confused by you saying that Snorlax likes a free turn and then turning around and saying it is hax dependent.

My point here is that the crux of Snorlax's strategy is to get one free turn. The crux doesn't imply that it can't also end up haxing other more iffy match-ups, but the point remains that the majority of Snorlax's match-ups are reliant one one free turn, not two. It's not hax-dependent, but it can hax, and it's entirely possible that the "can" is too much. In any case, unless there is statistical evidence to show otherwise, the majority of Snorlax's matchups are 100% to 2/3 win chance, with a smaller subset of matchups being 2/3 to 1/3, and of course a set of 0% wins for Snorlax. As Elo Bandit put it, Yawn users have soft wincons and hard wincons, and Snorlax wins a majority of the time off of its soft wincon. That doesn't mean the hard wincon doesn't exist, simply that enough evidence would have to be shown that Snorlax's list of hard wincon match-ups is large and varied enough to the point where you could say that Snorlax haxes a significant number of opponents. If this has actually been shown then I'm sorry, through skimming the thread since the Koko ban I haven't seen that evidence be shown.

Also Pokemon being bulky enough to get more than one sleep off isn't a justification for why it shouldn't be banned.

I feel like it is, if we're talking RNG, as simply putting a Pokemon to sleep twice, introducing two RNG rolls when you only need one to go your way, greatly reduces the load RNG actually has in determining an outcome. Sure, you have a 66% chance of getting one free turn with sleep, but if you're putting a Pokemon to sleep twice, and all you need is one free turn, that's an 89% chance of getting at least one turn for free. At that point, while RNG can still screw you over, it's no longer an RNG reliant strategy.

Venusaur-Mega is one of the biggest culprits as yes it is tanky enough to take one hit and use sleep, but then it relies on rng to get 2-3 sleep turns on pokemon like Mega-Metagross and others that deal 75+%

Again this is something that would have to be demonstrated with evidence. Mega Metagross is one Pokemon that should win a majority of the time against Snorlax and Venusaur, and something that does win a majority of the time against Snorlax and Venusaur, but it's one Pokemon, how many match-ups does Venusaur have to hax in order to have any chance of winning?

The difference between sleep and move accuracy is that the chance of hitting a move is higher than getting multiple sleep turns.

This isn't close to always being true though. I like bringing up Hustle Durant a lot, because Stone Edge has a lower chance of hitting than of sleep getting a turn 2 or 3 wake.

e are not discussing banning low accuracy moves so why bring it up. I personally don't understand the use of this to justify keeping sleep.

Because what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander. The reason why accuracy is being brought up at all is because from a logical standpoint, there is no qualitative difference between a move with poor accuracy hitting, and Sleep granting a free turn. Both are RNG based, with significant overlap in their odds, Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon having far less of a chance of hitting than Vivillon has a chance of getting a free sub in as many tries as it gets. Logically, any argument that could be made towards banning sleep solely on its reliance on RNG can be equally applied towards low accuracy moves. In order for there to be logical consistency, either both of them would have to be banned, or neither of them would have to be banned. The logic behind banning one thing has to be scrutinized against all other elements, you can't ban one thing for possessing a certain quality, and then leave everything else possessing that same quality completely untouched, unless the goal isn't logical consistency, and is instead merely a Miller Test, that if something looks un-competitive, if it feels, smells, and tastes un-competitive to whoever is making the decisions, then that's what determines if something is un-competitive or not. I don't think it should be a Miller Test.

Saying we shouldn't ban one because the other is just as broken is like saying back when Kyurem-Black was not banned that we should keep it because Jirachi is just as broken so why ban Kyub. It makes no sense.

And see, perhaps without realizing it, you just brought up a fantastic point for exactly why one shouldn't be banned without the other following: Kyurem-Black and Jirachi are both banned. If they were both broken, then they both needed to be banned. If Kyurem-Black was running amok, and the stated status quo was that Kyurem-Black was not to be banned anytime in the near future, a Jirachi ban would be absurd. Yet both of them were banned, because declaring one comparatively broken un-competitive element off-limits for a ban, then turning around and trying to ban something else that isn't any more comparatively broken or un-competitive is a double standard, it's inconsistent, and it makes no logical sense. Broken-ness and un-competitiveness are relative concepts. There's no hard line in the sand for where becomes un-competitive, or ceases to be so, it's all established by what elements are assumed to be un-competitive, and which elements are assumed to be competitive. If on an RNG basis you come to the conclusion that damage dealing attacks are never un-competitive despite the possibility of having poor accuracy or secondary effects, then comparatively, relatively, sleep rolls can't be considered un-competitive from an RNG standpoint. They just can't, because they aren't comparatively any more un-competitive or RNG reliant.

And while we're on the topic, since you keep bringing up not the one-turn sleep chance, but the two turn chance. Despite the fact that the majority of Sleep users tend to rely on one free turn for the majority of their match-ups, let's say for the sake of argument that every sleep user needed two free turns in order to be fully effective. While we're at it, let's extend the same courtesy towards inaccurate moves? Sure you could talk about the Durant match-ups where Durant needs to hit one Stone Edge or two Iron Heads or X Scissors, but since we're adding in an extra turn for the sake of discussing Sleep, what about the match-ups where Durant needs two Stone Edges, or three Iron Heads? Durant only has a 51.2% chance of landing three 80% accuracy attacks in a row, a damn near 50/50. Landing two 64% accuracy attacks in a row, and that drops to a 40% chance. Durant is categorically able to hax its opponents and win match-ups it probably shouldn't, how does this differ from sleep? It's important to remember that percentages are multiplicative, an 80% accuracy may not seem like it's so unreliable, and in the context of a single turn it isn't, but as the number of turns increase where the move has to be used, the odds of at least one missing increase dramatically.

Alright, how you doing after that wall of text? I'm really thirsty, I could use some ice water before going on, you should probably get yourself something to drink too, we're gonna be here awhile, it's important to stay hydrated.

The difference is that you're not using that low accuracy move in every matchup, while you ARE using that low probability Sleep move in most, if not all, matchups.

I think I've already covered how the weight of reliance on certain moves over the other is an irrelevant factor to the concept and principle of something being un-competitive or not. OHKO Moves are a great example of this in fact, as from a competitive standpoint, they likely wouldn't be used much on the Pokemon that carried them. Excadrill would spend most of its time going for Iron Heads or Earthquakes over Horn Drill, that doesn't mean that it's totally okay for Excadrill to run Horn Drill though.

I even shared with you my post on how "haxy" attacking moves have to factor in dealing damage, yet you choose to ignore that.

I apologize, as it was never specifically my intention to ignore any points that you had made, I've simply been trying to state my own opinion on the matter and on people's replies to me. But since you've brought it up, well, to hell with it, this is already a mammoth wall of text, let's crank it up a notch.

That's a given, but you inherently cannot be absolute with that mindset without the inclusion of OHKO moves. Just like any other move, they have a set accuracy, and just like any other <100% accurate move, they can miss.

Let's say that OHKO moves had 100% accuracy, or even better, if No Guard users got access to them and they bypassed accuracy checks altogether. Would that make them acceptable? Would that make them not broken? Hell no. The accuracy of those moves is in essence, completely irrelevant to whether or not the moves are completely broken, which is their ability to indiscriminately OHKO any Pokemon unless it's Sturdy, a Ghost, not Grounded, or Ice type, with only Sturdy being immune to every single OHKO move. RNG is a non-factor in OHKO moves being broken, they simply destroy too wide an array of Pokemon with little opportunity cost or reasons not to use them.
It sure sounds like I'm setting myself up for a real "Gotcha" here, doesn't it? Well hold on, and let me get to my point, because yes, I believe this logic can be applied to Sleep as well.

it is to my belief that that line should be drawn just below Sleep-inducing Moves, due to how they reduce battles to mere uncontrollable RNG far more often than Iron Head flinches, Focus Blast misses, damage rolls, or any other uncontrollable random chance does.

But they don't. They literally do not. The math doesn't match up to that statement at all. Iron Head flinches are a 30% chance, a 30% chance in many cases for a Pokemon that can only 2HKO its opponent and get OHKOd in return to hax out a win 30% of the time in a matchup it shouldn't win. A 30% chance to cheese a win in a match-up it should lose, where have I heard that before? Oh right, that's the chance for Yawn users to hit their hard wincon. Excadrill or Durant can cheese out 30% odds with an Iron Head flinch, Snorlax can cheese out 33% odds with two turns of sleep. And Iron Head is one of Excadrill and Durant's main two attacking STAB moves, so don't even try to say that it's not something that it relies on NOT THAT IT'S EVEN RELEVANT HOW MUCH IT RELIES ON IT. I've covered how accuracy's odds oftentimes line up with sleep roll odds if not out-do them in hax, so I think that covers that.

The difference, however, is that Sleep turns add an extra RNG element in such a way that simply hitting or missing your moves cannot emulate.

What's the qualitative difference between getting flinched by an Iron Head and 2HKO'd, a 30% chance, and getting slept for two turns and getting 2/3HKO'd by a Yawn user, a 33% chance? Snorlax takes more turns to beat you, if you're getting flinched and 2HKO'd, well, that's just two turns, but Snorlax hitting two double edges on you takes five turns. A difference that may make Snorlax more frustrating than Iron Head, but not a true difference. The RNG is spread out across a few turns instead of taking place on one, but the net odds are still virtually the same, so how spread out the RNG load is should have no real impact on how heavy the RNG truly is. You have a marginally better chance against the Iron Head, sure. 3% is basically crackers, but it's a difference. Is it a big enough difference to ban over? I've stated it over and over, and I'll continue until I'm blue in the face, but there's no qualitative difference in RNG between low accuracy/secondary effect moves that can decide a match-up, and being put to sleep.

Secondarily, I would dare to suggest that Yawn itself is not a proper Sleep move, on the grounds that it always allows the opponent two turns to do something before being put to Sleep (one if using Protect on the second turn). This acts in contrast to all other Sleep inducing moves that immediately render opponents unable to do anything, and is likely the reason why Yawn is not included in the list of Sleep moves that can be found through use of the /ms sleep command, while Relic Song IS included in the list.

Unless you're supporting the position that Yawn and Spore should be left as-is while low accuracy sleep moves should be banned, I'm sorry, but this is just moving the goalposts. Whether or not Yawn is competitive is just as relevant to the discussion of sleep as any other move that inflicts the status, and trying to categorize it as different only makes sense if you're trying to argue that it should be subject to different treatment to Hypnosis. Though if I'm not mistaken, your viewpoint is that all sleep inducing moves should be banned outright, so separating them if you believe the status itself to be the issue is pointless.

The aforementioned "smart plays" you can make while the opponent is awake does not pertain to the inhibiting effect on Skill that Sleep enforces.

But in a way, it does. Making smart plays with Yawn allows the user to completely shift the probability and RNG, which is completely skillful and pertains entirely to the sleep rolls as it essentially improves all of them by a third. The 66% chance of hitting soft wincon is now a 100% chance, the 33% chance of hard wincon is now 66%. This is probability management, and it is skill. As you refer to the Smogon Tiering policy, a quote of that should be in order.

IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.

• This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
• This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
• "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.

It's been established that Sleep as a probability factor is not any more RNG intensive than moves missing or having secondary effects, the math literally shows that the RNG is the same. To describe Sleep as affecting the outcome through RNG too much, would be to say that the moves with secondary effects, moves that can miss, also affect RNG too much, but according to the tiering policy, this is categorically, incontrovertibly false. Regarding skill, Yawn still leaves room for skillful plays. The user of Yawn can take advantage of the turn they'd normally protect if they predict they won't be attacked, and the Pokemon attacking can predict a Yawn+Protect, attack normally during the Yawn, and use a Z Move on the protect, nabbing KOs on the Yawn user. These are all ways that skill can put players at advantages or disadvantages beyond simply reducing it to "There's an RNG roll so that means it isn't skill it's un-competitive banbanbanbanban"

Being an element on more than just a single Pokemon has always been how Smogon handles broader bans (see: Soul Dew>Latios/Latias, Shadow Tag>Gothitelle/Wobbuffet, Drought>Ninetales/Torkoal, etc). Because Tapu Koko itself was Broken with Electrium while no other Pokemon that use Electrium were, Tapu Koko was instead banned, as it was the only abuser of Electrium to become Broken because of it.

The common thread between these Pokemon is that the strategy, no matter who uses it, is broken. It doesn't matter if Mega Gengar, Gothitelle, Dugtrio, or Wobbuffet is trapping you because the core strategy is broken no matter the Pokemon. I don't see the same being true for Sleep at this point, I really don't. This ties back into my comments about OHKO moves being broken not for their RNG, but for their effect, and I don't see how sleep fits the same level of broken.
Each sleep inducing Pokemon has their own sets of checks and counters, so of course if you lump all of the sleep users together under one banner and declare that because it's next to impossible to fully counter every single one of them without devoting your team entirely to stopping sleep and nothing else, you'll eventually run up against one you're weak against, and that means sleep should be banned, because it's un-counterable, 'Sleep' would appear to be broken. But this is unnecessarily and crudely reductive to the strategy, and essentially comes about as a result of treating it as a less legitimate way to win. You could say the same thing about Sleep as a monolith that you can say about fast nukes whose core strategy is to outspeed and OHKO. If you lump every HO Threat under one banner and declare that it's next to impossible to fully counter every single one of them without devoting your team entirely to stopping HO and nothing else, you'll eventually run up against one you're weak against, that means that fast pokemon with big offensive stats and powerful movepools should be banned, because you literally can't stop at least one pokemon from outspeeding and OHKOing you unless you use HO mons yourself and resort to a speed tie.
I'm aware I probably phrased that horribly, but to try and summarize it, Sleep is just as valid of a strategy as HO, Bulky Offense, and Stall, and should be treated as such, instead of like some tumor of gimmicks that isn't a real way to play the game skillfully.
If it can be demonstrated that sleep is broken to the point of a majority of users being able to steal wins with a lack of skill, or that the inclusion of a sleep move makes a particular Pokemon beat just too many others to be balanced, then sure, swing the banhammer away on sleep. But if that really only applies to Snorlax and Gengar? Ban Snorlax and Gengar. If they're the only ones who take a perfectly valid strategy and end up being broken because of it, ban the offenders. A ban on sleep would already sentence them to near shitmon viability, so it's not as if the problematic element isn't being expunged either way.
Damn that was a post and a half.

 

[The Official Glyx]

This hide is here to keep this thread from going to page 60 too quickly

How does someone say so much without saying anything at all-

The reason why accuracy is being brought up at all is because from a logical standpoint, there is no qualitative difference between a move with poor accuracy hitting, and Sleep granting a free turn. Both are RNG based, with significant overlap in their odds, Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon having far less of a chance of hitting than Vivillon has a chance of getting a free sub in as many tries as it gets. Logically, any argument that could be made towards banning sleep solely on its reliance on RNG can be equally applied towards low accuracy moves. In order for there to be logical consistency, either both of them would have to be banned, or neither of them would have to be banned. The logic behind banning one thing has to be scrutinized against all other elements, you can't ban one thing for possessing a certain quality, and then leave everything else possessing that same quality completely untouched, unless the goal isn't logical consistency, and is instead merely a Miller Test, that if something looks un-competitive, if it feels, smells, and tastes un-competitive to whoever is making the decisions, then that's what determines if something is un-competitive or not. I don't think it should be a Miller Test.

Let's start here. You neglect to mention that Sleep RNG happens across multiple turns, while a move hitting or missing is exclusive to a single turn. In reality, haxy moves have a chance to hax, naturally, but Sleep forces the battle to the point where you're relying on RNG just to avoid further RNG, with the opponent still having full capability to use other moves after having put you to Sleep. Think of Jirachi; the inaccurate moves are similar to just normal Jirachi using Iron Head and hoping for a win, meanwhile, in the case of Sleep, Jirachi sacrifices a turn to put you to Sleep, and THEN proceeds to start using Iron Head. There's a pretty clear distinction here, and it's that ur dum I mean, that the two are different, and should be treated as such.

And see, perhaps without realizing it, you just brought up a fantastic point for exactly why one shouldn't be banned without the other following: Kyurem-Black and Jirachi are both banned. If they were both broken, then they both needed to be banned. If Kyurem-Black was running amok, and the stated status quo was that Kyurem-Black was not to be banned anytime in the near future, a Jirachi ban would be absurd. Yet both of them were banned, because declaring one comparatively broken un-competitive element off-limits for a ban, then turning around and trying to ban something else that isn't any more comparatively broken or un-competitive is a double standard, it's inconsistent, and it makes no logical sense. Broken-ness and un-competitiveness are relative concepts. There's no hard line in the sand for where becomes un-competitive, or ceases to be so, it's all established by what elements are assumed to be un-competitive, and which elements are assumed to be competitive. If on an RNG basis you come to the conclusion that damage dealing attacks are never un-competitive despite the possibility of having poor accuracy or secondary effects, then comparatively, relatively, sleep rolls can't be considered un-competitive from an RNG standpoint. They just can't, because they aren't comparatively any more un-competitive or RNG reliant.

Fair enough Hikar- wait a second, you're not the guy who makes the rules- I'm sorry to say this, but using your own moral compass and definitions is a big no-no, here. Also, highkey, none of that rant made sense anyways-

And while we're on the topic, since you keep bringing up not the one-turn sleep chance, but the two turn chance. Despite the fact that the majority of Sleep users tend to rely on one free turn for the majority of their match-ups, let's say for the sake of argument that every sleep user needed two free turns in order to be fully effective. While we're at it, let's extend the same courtesy towards inaccurate moves? Sure you could talk about the Durant match-ups where Durant needs to hit one Stone Edge or two Iron Heads or X Scissors, but since we're adding in an extra turn for the sake of discussing Sleep, what about the match-ups where Durant needs two Stone Edges, or three Iron Heads? Durant only has a 51.2% chance of landing three 80% accuracy attacks in a row, a damn near 50/50. Landing two 64% accuracy attacks in a row, and that drops to a 40% chance. Durant is categorically able to hax its opponents and win match-ups it probably shouldn't, how does this differ from sleep? It's important to remember that percentages are multiplicative, an 80% accuracy may not seem like it's so unreliable, and in the context of a single turn it isn't, but as the number of turns increase where the move has to be used, the odds of at least one missing increase dramatically.

There are no Durant matchups that require multiple Stone Edges, or more than two of anything else But seriously though, this argument holds no place in the realm of Sleep, because Durant is only used for things like Fairies and Charizard, while Sleep is used for everything, I'd go on, but you cover it more in your next paragraph.

I think I've already covered how the weight of reliance on certain moves over the other is an irrelevant factor to the concept and principle of something being un-competitive or not. OHKO Moves are a great example of this in fact, as from a competitive standpoint, they likely wouldn't be used much on the Pokemon that carried them. Excadrill would spend most of its time going for Iron Heads or Earthquakes over Horn Drill, that doesn't mean that it's totally okay for Excadrill to run Horn Drill though.

You have not. You just said the odds of moves haxing and called it an argument, much like every other supporter of the "move accuracy = sleep hax" movement. The weight of reliance is the entire point- Sleep moves hit everything, Stone Edge hits Fire types, HP Water hits Camerupt. All of these have severely different weights that you can't just brush off and pretend like they don't matter.

Let's say that OHKO moves had 100% accuracy, or even better, if No Guard users got access to them and they bypassed accuracy checks altogether. Would that make them acceptable? Would that make them not broken? Hell no. The accuracy of those moves is in essence, completely irrelevant to whether or not the moves are completely broken, which is their ability to indiscriminately OHKO any Pokemon unless it's Sturdy, a Ghost, not Grounded, or Ice type, with only Sturdy being immune to every single OHKO move. RNG is a non-factor in OHKO moves being broken, they simply destroy too wide an array of Pokemon with little opportunity cost or reasons not to use them.
It sure sounds like I'm setting myself up for a real "Gotcha" here, doesn't it? Well hold on, and let me get to my point, because yes, I believe this logic can be applied to Sleep as well.

Of course the chance of success is relevant, are you dense? Focus Band would effectively make you immune to fainting if you apply the very same logic, yet it is not banned, because it only works 10% of the time.

But they don't. They literally do not. The math doesn't match up to that statement at all. Iron Head flinches are a 30% chance, a 30% chance in many cases for a Pokemon that can only 2HKO its opponent and get OHKOd in return to hax out a win 30% of the time in a matchup it shouldn't win. A 30% chance to cheese a win in a match-up it should lose, where have I heard that before? Oh right, that's the chance for Yawn users to hit their hard wincon. Excadrill or Durant can cheese out 30% odds with an Iron Head flinch, Snorlax can cheese out 33% odds with two turns of sleep. And Iron Head is one of Excadrill and Durant's main two attacking STAB moves, so don't even try to say that it's not something that it relies on NOT THAT IT'S EVEN RELEVANT HOW MUCH IT RELIES ON IT. I've covered how accuracy's odds oftentimes line up with sleep roll odds if not out-do them in hax, so I think that covers that.

You should've payed better attention in math class, boy. Losing a net loss of two turns of activity (a max sleep) from being Asleep is a 33% chance, while losing a net loss of two turns of activity from being flinched by Iron Head is a 9% chance. Comparing a single flinch to a full-on max sleep is a fallacious apples to oranges comparison to make, and you know it. The same parallels can be drawn for your oh-so-coveted innacurate moves, as well; 50% accurate moves, for example, having a 75% chance to hit at all (since most/all matchups only need one hit) across 2 turns, with everything else being even more likely than that.

What's the qualitative difference between getting flinched by an Iron Head and 2HKO'd, a 30% chance, and getting slept for two turns and getting 2/3HKO'd by a Yawn user, a 33% chance? Snorlax takes more turns to beat you, if you're getting flinched and 2HKO'd, well, that's just two turns, but Snorlax hitting two double edges on you takes five turns. A difference that may make Snorlax more frustrating than Iron Head, but not a true difference. The RNG is spread out across a few turns instead of taking place on one, but the net odds are still virtually the same, so how spread out the RNG load is should have no real impact on how heavy the RNG truly is. You have a marginally better chance against the Iron Head, sure. 3% is basically crackers, but it's a difference. Is it a big enough difference to ban over? I've stated it over and over, and I'll continue until I'm blue in the face, but there's no qualitative difference in RNG between low accuracy/secondary effect moves that can decide a match-up, and being put to sleep.

The qualitative difference is that Iron Head is only killing frail things and super effective things, maybe some neutral things with that hax, but nothing else; meanwhile, Snorlax is killing damn near everything with a Belly Drum-boosted Double Edge. I know you like to pretend all these RNG chances exist in a vacuum, but they don't, they're all applied across the various mons we have in the VR and in general, and should be considered in that way, since not every mon in 1v1 conveniently fits into your 30% flinch narrative. Sleep doesn't hit everything, either, but it sure as hell hits a lot more. In regards to your 30% vs 33% claim, read the above paragraph again.

Unless you're supporting the position that Yawn and Spore should be left as-is while low accuracy sleep moves should be banned, I'm sorry, but this is just moving the goalposts. Whether or not Yawn is competitive is just as relevant to the discussion of sleep as any other move that inflicts the status, and trying to categorize it as different only makes sense if you're trying to argue that it should be subject to different treatment to Hypnosis. Though if I'm not mistaken, your viewpoint is that all sleep inducing moves should be banned outright, so separating them if you believe the status itself to be the issue is pointless.

Low accuracy would be a good start, since that at least officially acknowledges that Sleep can be uncompetitive, and then we expand from that to the Speed Traps. Yawn is objectively different in that it allows afflicted Pokemon to at least do something, while Hypnosis does not. Yawn is really only problematic on Snorlax, as it allows the mon to beat/roll ~66% of the metagame (VR) with a single set, which is listed in our suspect philosophy as being grounds for being objectively broken. In the end, Sleep as a status is the problem, but I believe that how Yawn doesn't directly trigger the status in the same way that all other Sleep moves does is grounds enough for it to stay, just like how Jirachi's flinch hax was grounds enough for it to be banned, even though there are other mons that do the same thing.

But in a way, it does. Making smart plays with Yawn allows the user to completely shift the probability and RNG, which is completely skillful and pertains entirely to the sleep rolls as it essentially improves all of them by a third. The 66% chance of hitting soft wincon is now a 100% chance, the 33% chance of hard wincon is now 66%. This is probability management, and it is skill. As you refer to the Smogon Tiering policy, a quote of that should be in order.

The RNG remains the same though? With Yawn in particular, you just sometimes get an extra turn to do something if the opponent can't do something to stop you on the following turn after becoming drowsy. But yes, this is part of what I mean in regards to why Yawn in particular could have reasoning for not being banned alongside the other Sleep moves.

It's been established that Sleep as a probability factor is not any more RNG intensive than moves missing or having secondary effects, the math literally shows that the RNG is the same. To describe Sleep as affecting the outcome through RNG too much, would be to say that the moves with secondary effects, moves that can miss, also affect RNG too much, but according to the tiering policy, this is categorically, incontrovertibly false. Regarding skill, Yawn still leaves room for skillful plays. The user of Yawn can take advantage of the turn they'd normally protect if they predict they won't be attacked, and the Pokemon attacking can predict a Yawn+Protect, attack normally during the Yawn, and use a Z Move on the protect, nabbing KOs on the Yawn user. These are all ways that skill can put players at advantages or disadvantages beyond simply reducing it to "There's an RNG roll so that means it isn't skill it's un-competitive banbanbanbanban"

It's also been disproven, as the real math literally shows otherwise. Otherwise, all you're saying here is just more reasoning to ban all Sleep moves besides Yawn, since no other Sleep moves have that same maneuverability for both players as Yawn does, besides faster mons using Substitute or Taunt.

The common thread between these Pokemon is that the strategy, no matter who uses it, is broken. It doesn't matter if Mega Gengar, Gothitelle, Dugtrio, or Wobbuffet is trapping you because the core strategy is broken no matter the Pokemon. I don't see the same being true for Sleep at this point, I really don't. This ties back into my comments about OHKO moves being broken not for their RNG, but for their effect, and I don't see how sleep fits the same level of broken.

In regards to the OHKO bit, see paragraph 5 again. The reason why I believe Sleep is an issue is because it enforces RNG for multiple consecutive turns at the expense of one turn to set it up, as opposed to how inaccurate/haxy moves can only enforce RNG for individual turns each time you use them.

Each sleep inducing Pokemon has their own sets of checks and counters, so of course if you lump all of the sleep users together under one banner and declare that because it's next to impossible to fully counter every single one of them without devoting your team entirely to stopping sleep and nothing else, you'll eventually run up against one you're weak against, and that means sleep should be banned, because it's un-counterable, 'Sleep' would appear to be broken.

Kinda like how each inaccurate/haxy move only hits a certain group of mons, but wait, the weight of reliance is irrelevant! So all the checks and counters to Sleep don't matter by this logic! But seriously, please choose one set of logic and stick with it, instead of contradicting yourself like this. Just because you can cheese your way to a win with Iron Head against Primarina doesn't mean you can do the same with Slowbro, even though you'd really like to imagine that that 30% flinch applies to everything, from what I've seen from you thus far.

But this is unnecessarily and crudely reductive to the strategy, and essentially comes about as a result of treating it as a less legitimate way to win.

I feel that it is an undeniably less legitimate way to win, as you've effectively just swept your opponent's legs out from under them and proceeded to go for the knockout while they try to get back on their feet. The only thing left here is for the referee to decide if that was an unfair move or not.

You could say the same thing about Sleep as a monolith that you can say about fast nukes whose core strategy is to outspeed and OHKO. If you lump every HO Threat under one banner and declare that it's next to impossible to fully counter every single one of them without devoting your team entirely to stopping HO and nothing else, you'll eventually run up against one you're weak against, that means that fast pokemon with big offensive stats and powerful movepools should be banned, because you literally can't stop at least one pokemon from outspeeding and OHKOing you unless you use HO mons yourself and resort to a speed tie.

While you're not wrong, you neglect the fact that Sleepers require less effort to do what they do than Hyper Offensive mons. Sleepers just have to put the opponent to Sleep and hope they stay asleep long enough for them to set up their win condition, typically almost regardless of matchup; while Hyper Offensive mons more often have to consider who they're going up against in regards to type matchup and overall damage dealt and received. Now, just because there's little we can do about helpless matchups like Ferrothorn vs Charizard, that doesn't mean we should just allow there to be more helpless matchups, the ultimate endgame is to make 1v1 into a competitive metagame where the more skilled player can play their way around matchups more often than not, which is why I believe it is necessary to reduce the number of "autowin" matchups and overall random elements; a goal that is aided by the banning of Sleep inducing moves that allow mons like Jumpluff and Vivillon to almost always beat anything slower than them, as well as Sleep inducing moves that allow mons like Whimsicott and Gengar to roll their way to success.

 

[Ginger Princess]

I can't wait to write my college thesis on the semantics of the words "uncompetitive", "unfair", "unbalanced", "broken", etc, along with the intricate explanation on how a mechanic designed specifically to take the control of the game out of the players hands is completely fair

 

[edudittA]

If I could suggest an alternative to banning all Sleep-inducing moves, it would be banning all sleep moves displayed by /ms sleep [We could discuss about Relic Song, since it would be unfair to not allow a full Pokemon to exist in 1v1 by banning one move which allows the forme change], and banning individual broken users of Yawn. I propose this because Yawn users needs an extra turn(like Protect or Endure) + a setup turn[optional](Like Snorlax which needs a setup turn and Relicanth which doesnt) to successfully pull off its act, while no other sleep (ab)user necessarily needs more than one free turn to win. This is not complex ban, as I see it, since there is no level of complexity involved. And before people start accusing me of applying double standards, I do so because different archetypes of sleep users need to be approached and discussed differently, and I feel that this discussion would not reach a concrete conclusion unless this fact is accepted by the people who post here. And what this would entail is not arguing about Yawn users and other sleep move users in the same breath, because they are not similar in their functionality and usage.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I don’t have the time nor the energy to respond to this whole post so I’ll just respond to the first part

Venusaur, but it's one Pokemon, how many match-ups does Venusaur have to hax in order to have any chance of winning?

The entire point of running sleep powder on Venusaur is for these hax based matchups. Charm is 100% a better set but if your team has bad matchups vs Metagross and let’s say Charizard X, then using sleep powder allows you to win against these Pokémon with long sleep turns. Completely hax based.

This isn't close to always being true though. I like bringing up Hustle Durant a lot, because Stone Edge has a lower chance of hitting than of sleep getting a turn 2 or 3 wake.

I’m so confused how you feel you can hinge this whole argument on stone edge Durant. Let’s start with this, unless you haven’t noticed Durant is one Pokémon (crazy right) and is one of the only if not the only Pokémon who relies on move accuracy this low. The only other Pokémon I can think of that does this is magnezone in certain situations where it has to hit a zap Cannon. The second problem with this is that Durant is lower than the 100 most used mon. Now a counter argument may be that so are some other sleep users but not the main offenders of Snorlax, Mega-Gengar, Mega-Venusaur, Jumpluff, etcetera. Stop using Durant as a counter argument, it’s a bad one.

Both are RNG based, with significant overlap in their odds, Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon having far less of a chance of hitting than Vivillon has a chance of getting a free sub in as many tries as it gets. Logically, any argument that could be made towards banning sleep solely on its reliance on RNG can be equally applied towards low accuracy moves

I already said this in the Durant response. I’d like you to tell me a Pokémon in 1v1 that viably uses dynamic punch. Zap cannon I’ll give you because of magnezone (in only very specific matchups) but not Durant since (even though uop thinks it is) it’s not very viable and isn’t used very much. This leaves you at 1 Pokémon abusing an rng based strategy in which case the Pokémon it’s self would be banned and not the mechanic it abuses. (See Koko or Jirachi) Sleep however has many more abusers (notability the three we need for a move ban Mega-Gengar, Mega-Venusaur, and Snorlax, others could be argued as well) and therefore should be banned as moves instead of individual abusers.

And see, perhaps without realizing it, you just brought up a fantastic point for exactly why one shouldn't be banned without the other following: Kyurem-Black and Jirachi are both banned. If they were both broken, then they both needed to be banned. If Kyurem-Black was running amok, and the stated status quo was that Kyurem-Black was not to be banned anytime in the near future, a Jirachi ban would be absurd. Yet both of them were banned, because declaring one comparatively broken un-competitive element off-limits for a ban, then turning around and trying to ban something else that isn't any more comparatively broken or un-competitive is a double standard, it's inconsistent, and it makes no logical sense. Broken-ness and un-competitiveness are relative concepts. There's no hard line in the sand for where becomes un-competitive, or ceases to be so, it's all established by what elements are assumed to be un-competitive, and which elements are assumed to be competitive. If on an RNG basis you come to the conclusion that damage dealing attacks are never un-competitive despite the possibility of having poor accuracy or secondary effects, then comparatively, relatively, sleep rolls can't be considered un-competitive from an RNG standpoint. They just can't, because they aren't comparatively any more un-competitive or RNG reliant.

I’m tired so im only going to say one more thing. This post, especially this paragraph feels more like a call to ban low accuracy moves than to not ban sleep. If you want that then make a post about that. If you’re trying to compare the two then don’t make it sound like you want to ban one. It hurts your argument.

Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to go to sleep now since I’ve been up for 26 hours
Edit: Can we talk about how osra’s post is basically Jesus

 

[The Official Glyx]

Since discussion has seemingly died down, here's the Glyx sample that was probably long-awaited by nobody-

as is tradition with these posts, here's a picture of my peak on the ladder and proof of my owning the account in order to establish the credibility that I know what I'm doing.

and here's the team:

Hide

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Reflect
- Moonblast

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz
- Outrage

Pheromosa @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 160 Def / 188 SpA / 160 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Lunge

Basically, the entire premise of the team is making mons beat things you wouldn't expect them to; Lele>Charizard-Y, Charizard-X>Naganadel, Pheromosa>Aggron, etc. The main core of the team is really between Charizard and Lele, as those two do most of the heavy lifting in regards to taking on common threats, while Pheromosa is there to act as the anchor that handles particular threats to the core, namely Landorus, Snorlax, Slowbro, and Aggron.
As you would expect from most balance teams, you have to rely on outpredicting and outsmarting your opponents a lot, in order to experience success with the team, though it certainly helps to have the added lure elements that this one offers whether people notice the lure or not is an entirely different matter, though.

 

[motogp]

Hello there.
I don't have the patience to make a long post.
I just wanted to adress the difference between inaccurate moves and sleep moves,which is an argument of the pro-keep side that has never really convinced me.

1.https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-definition-of-hax.72336/
I know this is an old post BUT
there haven't been any vast changes to the pokemon competitive scene regarding that matter since then (except a few sleep mechanics which are not immediately related to this since it refers to hax and not sleep), and it is a widely accepted theory to these days.
As you see,the vast majority agrees that everything that happens despite having a <50% chance to happen is regarded as hax.
E.G. Hitting Focus Blast twice is hax,but missing an Inferno or a Zap Cannon is also hax.
However,that also includes combinations.
Let's take Mega Gengar as an example.
Missing Hypnosis is regarded as hax,while hitting it is not.
However,let's imagine a situation where the opponent is faster but Mega Gengar can live a hit and click Hypnosis
Let's also assume that the opponent doesn't wake up turn 1.
That has a 60%+66%≈39,6% of happening,so it is regarded as hax.
Assuming Hex is a 2hko (just like in pretty much every pokemon),this has essentially lost the opposing pokemon the game.
Up until now,we have hax.
So,where do we draw the line of something being hax-dependant and something being uncompetitive?
Now here I am going to quote another thread:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/competitive-and-uncompetitive-definition-discussion.3522799/

I strongly advice reading this,but I would like to stay on something specific.
I think I have to tag the original creator of the post,though,because credits go to shrang

"A competitive metagame is (Hallmarks of Competition):
1) Fair: One player can do to the opponent what the opponent can do in return to them
unrelated to sleep
2) Not one which has the means to subvert given rules of the game OR change the mechanics in which the game is played
I personally consider in this category the element that "the player who played the best should win",and we can all admit that this doesn't happen with sleep.
3) One that must have a clear winner and loser
unrelated to sleep
An uncompetitive game element, therefore, must subvert any one of the above Hallmarks of Competition. This is done via taking away autonomy (ie control of the game's mechanics) to the extent which:
- The control removed must violate one of the above three hallmarks of competition
yes
AND
- The amount of control removed must have a direct and causative effect on the outcome of the game (aka one's win or loss)
sleep turns fit in this category
AND
- The element in question must have contributed most to the victory (or loss)
same as above
it contributes the most to victory/loss since sleep turns can turn wins to losses (eg in snorlax's case in snorlax vs mega metagross etc.)


we have all of those but the thing I want to stay in is the one below.
AND
- The element in question cannot be prepared for with any tools used in Pokemon battling, including teambuilding"

there is NO reliable counterplay to every sleep user
in other words
you cant prepare for sleep
the only thing that could possibly fit this category is the abilities Vital Spirit and Insomnia
But let's take the users one by one:

Magmortar,Ariados,Hypno,Vigoroth,Noctowl (I believe) and Honchkrow lose to Yawn Snorlax without Snorlax utilizing sleep
Electivire and Lycanroc Midnight lose to Mega Swampert
Gourgeist and Banette lose to Mega Camerupt
Banette also loses to Mega Gengar
So we are left with,what?
Insomnia Murkrow?
Everything that does not have Insomnia or Vital Spirit can lose depending on how lucky the opponent is.

And now to my second point.
This "rule" also shows the difference between winning by hitting/losing by missing/losing by the opponent hitting/whatever a "low" accuracy move and winning through sleep turns

From your side,it's something you CAN account for in teambuilding,so we'll have to rule it out.
From the opponent's side,it's the same thing.

However,hitting a move does NOT always win you the game,since not every move is an OHKO or a 2HKO
Sleep users are powerful enough to be able to ohko you while you are under the sleep condition,BUT this mostly relies on how many turns you stay asleep.

I advise you to re-read the last thread I quoted before you move on.

Therefore,both you and your opponent LOSE control of the battle and as it's pointed out in that thread,that leads to a mechanic being uncompetitive.

Regarding another argument I saw (but because I am tired this will have less explaining)

OHKO Moves are not the same thing as hitting a low accuracy move.
There is nothing competitive,no correct sequence of moves you need to follow (which is another main pro-keep argument),when using OHKO Moves.
Do they have counters? Ofcourse they do,Sturdy negates OHKO Moves.
Is landing an OHKO Move regarded as hax? Yes it is,since it's below 50%
Would OHKO Moves cause huge changes to the metagame? Yes,we'd have to unban Focus Sash.

(this whole section was written because ryyjyywyy questioned ohko ban in regards to sleep)

Keep in mind that in this post I regarded those 2 threads as a reference,so if you disagree with some of those points that are immediately related to those threads,post there,not here.

Anyway this post is long enough and I need relaxation peace.

 

[Tol]

Hello there.
I don't have the patience to make a long post.
I just wanted to adress the difference between inaccurate moves and sleep moves,which is an argument of the pro-keep side that has never really convinced me.

1.https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-definition-of-hax.72336/
I know this is an old post BUT
there haven't been any vast changes to the pokemon competitive scene regarding that matter since then (except a few sleep mechanics which are not immediately related to this since it refers to hax and not sleep), and it is a widely accepted theory to these days.
As you see,the vast majority agrees that everything that happens despite having a <50% chance to happen is regarded as hax.
E.G. Hitting Focus Blast twice is hax,but missing an Inferno or a Zap Cannon is also hax.
However,that also includes combinations.
Let's take Mega Gengar as an example.
Missing Hypnosis is regarded as hax,while hitting it is not.
However,let's imagine a situation where the opponent is faster but Mega Gengar can live a hit and click Hypnosis
Let's also assume that the opponent doesn't wake up turn 1.
That has a 55%+65%≈36% of happening,so it is regarded as hax.
Assuming Hex is a 2hko (just like in pretty much every pokemon),this has essentially lost the opposing pokemon the game.
Up until now,we have hax.
So,where do we draw the line of something being hax-dependant and something being uncompetitive?
Now here I am going to quote another thread:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/competitive-and-uncompetitive-definition-discussion.3522799/

I strongly advice reading this,but I would like to stay on something specific.
I think I have to tag the original creator of the post,though,because credits go to shrang

"A competitive metagame is (Hallmarks of Competition):
1) Fair: One player can do to the opponent what the opponent can do in return to them
unrelated to sleep
2) Not one which has the means to subvert given rules of the game OR change the mechanics in which the game is played
I personally consider in this category the element that "the player who played the best should win",and we can all admit that this doesn't happen with sleep.
3) One that must have a clear winner and loser
unrelated to sleep
An uncompetitive game element, therefore, must subvert any one of the above Hallmarks of Competition. This is done via taking away autonomy (ie control of the game's mechanics) to the extent which:
- The control removed must violate one of the above three hallmarks of competition
yes
AND
- The amount of control removed must have a direct and causative effect on the outcome of the game (aka one's win or loss)
sleep turns fit in this category
AND
- The element in question must have contributed most to the victory (or loss)
same as above
it contributes the most to victory/loss since sleep turns can turn wins to losses (eg in snorlax's case in snorlax vs mega metagross etc.)


we have all of those but the thing I want to stay in is the one below.
AND
- The element in question cannot be prepared for with any tools used in Pokemon battling, including teambuilding"

there is NO reliable counterplay to every sleep user
in other words
you cant prepare for sleep
the only thing that could possibly fit this category is the abilities Vital Spirit and Insomnia
But let's take the users one by one:

Magmortar,Ariados,Hypno,Vigoroth,Noctowl (I believe) and Honchkrow lose to Yawn Snorlax without Snorlax utilizing sleep
Electivire and Lycanroc Midnight lose to Mega Swampert
Gourgeist and Banette lose to Mega Camerupt
Banette also loses to Mega Gengar
So we are left with,what?
Insomnia Murkrow?
Everything that does not have Insomnia or Vital Spirit can lose depending on how lucky the opponent is.

And now to my second point.
This "rule" also shows the difference between winning by hitting/losing by missing/losing by the opponent hitting/whatever a "low" accuracy move and winning through sleep turns

From your side,it's something you CAN account for in teambuilding,so we'll have to rule it out.
From the opponent's side,it's the same thing.

However,hitting a move does NOT always win you the game,since not every move is an OHKO or a 2HKO
Sleep users are powerful enough to be able to ohko you while you are under the sleep condition,BUT this mostly relies on how many turns you stay asleep.

I advise you to re-read the last thread I quoted before you move on.

Therefore,both you and your opponent LOSE control of the battle and as it's pointed out in that thread,that leads to a mechanic being uncompetitive.

Regarding another argument I saw (but because I am tired this will have less explaining)

OHKO Moves are not the same thing as hitting a low accuracy move.
There is nothing competitive,no correct sequence of moves you need to follow (which is another main pro-keep argument),when using OHKO Moves.
Do they have counters? Ofcourse they do,Sturdy negates OHKO Moves.
Is landing an OHKO Move regarded as hax? Yes it is,since it's below 50%
Would OHKO Moves cause huge changes to the metagame? Yes,we'd have to unban Focus Sash.

(this whole section was written because ryyjyywyy questioned ohko ban in regards to sleep)

Keep in mind that in this post I regarded those 2 threads as a reference,so if you disagree with some of those points that are immediately related to those threads,post there,not here.

Anyway this post is long enough and I need relaxation peace.

sorry for picking apart your post I just saw some stuff in here I really dislike
"
"there is NO reliable counterplay to every sleep user
in other words
you cant prepare for sleep"
this is like saying "There is NO reliable counterplay to every Water-Type
in other words
you cant prepare for water types"
you can't take a long list of pokemon that each do differing things, lump them all together, and say that since there's no hard counter to all of them(which there is) therefore you should ban them all. Countering Snorlax is very different than beating Jumpluff, which is different still from taking down Venusaur. And it's not like seeing a charizard at team preview, where you don't know which one it is. You know exactly which sleeper your opponent has, and therefore what to send in to counter it. And before anyone says "but this restricts teambuilding", charizard and mega gyarados demand more hard counters than sleep ever will. and when you say "uh only insomniacs and vital spiriters can counter sleep" this really isn't true. You will be hard pressed to find a sleeper to beat Mega Sableye, Dusclops, Type:Null, Substitute users, and many other Pokemon.
"
"However,let's imagine a situation where the opponent is faster but Mega Gengar can live a hit and click Hypnosis
Let's also assume that the opponent doesn't wake up turn 1.
That has a 55%+65%≈36% of happening,so it is regarded as hax."
bro your percents here are really messed up. to the best of my knowledge, it would be .06 * .067, for around a 40% chance.
"
"2) Not one which has the means to subvert given rules of the game OR change the mechanics in which the game is played
I personally consider in this category the element that "the player who played the best should win",and we can all admit that this doesn't happen with sleep."
How exactly do you judge "the player who played the best"? in sleep matchups, there's rarely any 50/50s to determine who outpredicted the other. it's like running greninja or pory-z or charizard or anything else in 1v1. if you're in a winning matchup, you win, if not, you lose.

 

[motogp]

sorry for picking apart your post I just saw some stuff in here I really dislike
"
"there is NO reliable counterplay to every sleep user
in other words
you cant prepare for sleep"
this is like saying "There is NO reliable counterplay to every Water-Type
in other words
you cant prepare for water types"
you can't take a long list of pokemon that each do differing things, lump them all together, and say that since there's no hard counter to all of them(which there is) therefore you should ban them all. Countering Snorlax is very different than beating Jumpluff, which is different still from taking down Venusaur. And it's not like seeing a charizard at team preview, where you don't know which one it is. You know exactly which sleeper your opponent has, and therefore what to send in to counter it. And before anyone says "but this restricts teambuilding", charizard and mega gyarados demand more hard counters than sleep ever will. and when you say "uh only insomniacs and vital spiriters can counter sleep" this really isn't true. You will be hard pressed to find a sleeper to beat Mega Sableye, Dusclops, Type:Null, Substitute users, and many other Pokemon.

Hey,let's bring 100% counters to each sleep user just because we need it unbanned!

Charizard and Gyarados have plenty of hard counters,and the meta is centered around them.
Do we want the meta to be centered around a mechanic?
And don't bring Balanced Hackmons as an example.

"
"However,let's imagine a situation where the opponent is faster but Mega Gengar can live a hit and click Hypnosis
Let's also assume that the opponent doesn't wake up turn 1.
That has a 55%+65%≈36% of happening,so it is regarded as hax."
bro your percents here are really messed up. to the best of my knowledge, it would be .06 * .067, for around a 40% chance.
"
"2) Not one which has the means to subvert given rules of the game OR change the mechanics in which the game is played
I personally consider in this category the element that "the player who played the best should win",and we can all admit that this doesn't happen with sleep."
How exactly do you judge "the player who played the best"? in sleep matchups, there's rarely any 50/50s to determine who outpredicted the other. it's like running greninja or pory-z or charizard or anything else in 1v1. if you're in a winning matchup, you win, if not, you lose.

your last paragraph is 100% wrong
fixed the maths you were talking about,still less than 50% though


How exactly do you judge "the player who played the best"

that would be the player who got the correct matchup in team preview,OR in matchups like Snorlax vs Sub CharX the person who correctly predicted their opponent

? in sleep matchups, there's rarely any 50/50s to determine who outpredicted the other.

If this statement was correct,sleep would be quickbanned already due to uncompetitiveness.
Sleep users do have to outpredict their opponents SOMETIMES.
An example would be,as I mentioned above,Snorlax vs Sub CharX.

it's like running greninja or pory-z or charizard or anything else in 1v1. if you're in a winning matchup, you win, if not, you lose.

I literally spent an entire paragraph explaining how sleep rolls effect the outcome of battles.
Please read before responding.
Again,take Snorlax vs Mega Metagross as an example:the outcome of this matchup depends ENTIRELY on when Metagross wakes up.
If it wakes up on sleep turn 2,it wins.
If it wakes up on sleep turn 3,it only wins with Hammer Arm or Iron Head flinch.
If it stays asleep all 3 possible turns,it loses.
There are other matchups for which the same thing applies which I would gladly explain (although I gave some Mega Gengar examples before).