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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Quote

Smogon's Resident Robot
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With the creation of the Unofficial Metagames subforum, 1v1 now has its own forum! We'll be able to host our projects, discussions, and resources here! This also means we'll be doing a reset with our threads. The former discussion and resource threads in the OMs forum are closed and we'll be starting them over here. Hopefully we can keep this place clean and organised.

As you may have seen, The Immortal has stepped down from 1v1's leadership, and I am replacing him as the new 1v1 Leader. I thank TI for his contributions up until now and I hope I can be a suitable replacement.

This thread will be used for discussion of the 1v1 metagame. This includes discussing metagame trends, strategies you enjoy using, as well as possible suspects. Please be constructive and thoughtful with your posts. One liners will be deleted, and disrespectful behaviour will not be taken lightly.

Have fun!
 
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I believe that a flinch move + serene grace complex ban suspect could be good. I like the way the metagame is right now, all I can really ask for are QoL improvements like that (and cough banning sleep cough cough).
 
What better way to start off a discussion thread than bringing up the usual debate - sleep?

I think a sleep suspect test would just set the discussion off better. I mean, both sides of the arguments seem to be legit concerns. I mean, the discussion is going to keep cropping up. And since both sides of the arguments have flaws and merits, it is difficult to place someone as correct or incorrect. So, I feel, as a community-driven council, that a suspect test (with a result, whatever be it)would serve the purpose of showing the whole community what the entirety of the community (including the non-Smogon posting people) thinks about sleep..
 
Since we are on the topic of banning sleep

I feel that sleep users should be banned and not sleep moves. Sleep moves can be used on a wide vareity of pokemon. And only a select few of sleep enducing pokemon are whats causing issues in the meta. Banning sleep outright would destroy diversity in the meta. only one i really see is a problem is mega gengar imo. if it gets that 60% roll it basically wins. And smeargle which just kills everything slower than it.
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
What better way to start off a discussion thread than bringing up the usual debate - sleep?
With regards to this, the council has been doing a lot of discussion privately, and we've ultimately come to a few points of conclusion regarding sleep as an issue:
  1. Sleep, as a status, is not the inherent problem at hand. If it were, then people would be rallying behind a ban on Yawn, as well as all the other moves. The problem at hand lies to each user of sleep; the sleep moves they get and their own inherent stats and abilities to make the set work. It's for this reason that Yawn Snorlax was broken, while no other Yawn users even come close, in terms of viability; even Ursaring, who has all the same moves to use as the Yawnlax set, yet isn't even ranked on the VR.
  2. With section 1 in mind, now we have to draw a line for where each of the best users of each sleep inducing move becomes "problematic" or "unhealthy". For Yawn, Snorlax would obviously be over the line (on the broken¹ side), while nothing else seems to come close. For Hypnosis, the closest to the line is Gengar-Mega (on the uncompetitive¹ side), with other users like Gardevoir, Mew, and Yanma being a few steps behind Gengar.
  3. With section 2 in mind, now we have to draw another line as to when the problem stems from the move, versus from the user. Keep in mind that each sleep inducing move is inherently different from the others, with regards to the group of mons that can use each move, the accuracy of each move, quirks like going through sub or powder immunities, and the general intent of the sleep move on each set (what it's used for, how it ties into the mon's overall win condition, etc). If it can be determined that problematic scenarios are created because of the sleep inducing move, rather than the mon attached to it, then there may be a case for addressing the move; otherwise, we look at mons, first and foremost.
With all that said, I want everyone to be aware that, for the time being, banning sleep inducing moves is off the table. Instead, please focus on individual Pokemon that become problematic because of their use of their given sleep move. If action is taken on the most notorious sleep users and sleep still continues to be an issue, then an extension to addressing the moves may be taken.

¹ With regards to the use of terms like "broken" and "uncompetitive", it should be clarified that these terms have a connotation of something being banworthy if the aspect can be defined as either "broken" or "uncompetitive". Despite this connotation, nearly everything in Pokemon has "broken" or "uncompetitive" elements to them. When using these words, make sure to clarify that the aspect's "broken" or "uncompetitive" elements that you're talking about push the aspect to an extent that merits a ban or suspect; or if not, explain why they don't.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
unless you get an early wakeup, i don't know the exact chance of that happening but it makes smeargle an rng based speed trap. actually, are there any speed traps that aren't at least somewhat reliant on rng?
Literally all of them.

Turn 1:
You: sleep move
They: sleep

Turn 2a:
You: substitute
They: Sleep

Turn 3a:
You: good move
They: concede

Or

Turn 2b:
You: sub
They: wake up and break sub

Turn 3b: Repeat turn 1 until you get a sleep that lasts more than 1 turn.


Honestly it’s not that hard:
 
Literally all of them.

Turn 1:
You: sleep move
They: sleep

Turn 2a:
You: substitute
They: Sleep

Turn 3a:
You: good move
They: concede

ignore what i said then i'm too dumb to remember that sub exists. does that make smeargle the only non-rng reliant speed trap? it's the only thing with decent speed that gets access to spore.
 

ryyjyywyy

Survivor Champion
ignore what i said then i'm too dumb to remember that sub exists. does that make smeargle the only non-rng reliant speed trap? it's the only thing with decent speed that gets access to spore.
all speed traps that use a sleep move do this, and really the only rng involved is accuracy, not sleep turns (in most all matchups). also breloom is the same as smeargle. gengar is kind of an exception, but then again it has hex and maybe willowisp to minimize sleep turns needed, and can also run sub.
 
I've been playing 1v1 since 2015 and it's last year I'm really a good strategist. In short, I'll tell you a little anecdote. Just a year ago I was nothing at all. And then when someone said to me "Lancer why you don't sign and participate in 1v1 PL" (it was Wrath of Alakazam if my memories are good) already I was noticed by someone and I told myself that yeah why not start a smogon tournament and this was my first tournament. Later, I was bought by Captains Osra and TDA. It was a great pleasure to participate in one of these big tournaments and I couldn't unfortunately show all my abilities and qualities to the team and captains, obviously I still spoke English badly but some of my teammates were making the effort to speak French only for me and touched me a little bit that they spoke French because French is not an easy language I must admit.
Then, after 1v1PL ended I decided to invest a little more in improving and learning new things and I got the first place in the ladder which was already not bad for me and meant that I was worth something in this metagame. Indeed, I have done multiple tournaments like ssnl, wc...

And one day came to mind that I was convinced I had more abilities in me and why not create a fresh account to get a perfect gxe. I did it and within 5 months I reached my goal. My ultimate goal was to surpass myself and know how far I could get and to reach 85 gxe. Today, I now know that they are my abilities and no matter how you play the importance is the victory with particular strategies.


Type: Null
1200px-772Type_Null.png



He was really at the centre of my strategies, he has a good defence potential to take the blows, if you don't have a taunt who is dragging, the battle looks difficult.

Fun game : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-860017053

Peak :

167174



85 gxe achieved :
167170
167173
 
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thanks all for letting me be a part of this fun community
im leaving for a few years, and wasnted to give some closing remarks on what I see about the metagame

First off zeraora is extremely under rated. it gets bulk up and charge, outrage and fire punch, and plasma fists too. Not to mention it also gets fake out, grass knot, thunder. It has amazing movepolls both physical and special

second, wide lens jumpluff is super slept on, the thing is busted, its as good as twave mimikyu

In gen 8, please consider banning z moves, z moves are the most common item by a long shot; completely changed the meta

adios amigos
 
First off zeraora is extremely under rated. it gets bulk up and charge, outrage and fire punch, and plasma fists too. Not to mention it also gets fake out, grass knot, thunder. It has amazing movepolls both physical and special.
cough use mixed Zeraora people cough
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
I've been noticing a growing issue within the community, and I think it's time I address it:

Contributing to 1v1
  1. Getting started
    • The main, basic points of access for 1v1 are:
    • Contributing to all of these allows us, the 1v1 staff, to assess whether or not you can produce a well-constructed, cohesive thought. Quality posts will definitely make you more favorable in the eyes of staff (avoid making posts like this).
  2. "Quality posts"
    • A quality post is defined by the amount of forethought that went into it. Consider the following:
      • "Mawile beats Gyarados"
      • "Mawile has approximately a 66% chance of beating Gyarados with Earthquake and Waterfall, factoring in the possibility of missing either Play Rough, getting an Atk drop or crit, getting crit by Earthquake, or getting crit/flinched by Waterfall, assuming both parties play correctly"
      • While the latter of these certainly requires more effort, it more clearly portrays the point you're trying to make, and may even shake up people's perspective of what you're talking about.
    • Putting effort into your posts makes it clear that you understand what you're talking about and care about the metagame/community and want to see them improve, which makes you a much more viable candidate for room voice, or other roles of responsibility.
  3. Promotions
    • A history of quality posts and good behavior will likely result in promotion to room voice, to symbolize your status as a viable role model for how others should contribute to the metagame/community.
      • NOTE: just because you feel your posts are quality doesn't necessarily mean that they are.
      • NOTE: while making quality smogon posts certainly aids your potential to become room voice, you still need to be active in the 1v1 room in order to maintain it. There isn't really much point promoting someone in a room they don't participate in.
    • Alternatively, trusted users may be allowed to run threads for various 1v1 Projects, non-major Tournaments, and Resources.
      • "Trusted users" are not handpicked, all it takes to be trustworthy is to be a commonly known individual within the community and among the staff and NOT have a history that is stained with frequent shitposting or harassing others.
    • Staff promotions use a slightly different metric from voice promotions, since driver and above require users to use their powers responsibly (doing nothing isn't responsible, either) and correspond with other staff to ensure that everyone is on the same page. This post contains general information for staff promotions, and while it is aimed at global promotions, is still a good reference to start with.
  4. What isn't contributing?
    • Simply playing the metagame: while laddering is good to do for honing your skills, it doesn't necessarily make you voice material. It does, however, give you more insight into the workings of the metagame, such that you can make more informed posts on smogon. This goes for tournaments as well, official and otherwise.
    • Shitposting, memes, and thoughtless one-liners: these aren't really conducive to meaningful discussion or the raising of awareness for something so much as they are just posting for the sake of posting.
    • Poorly informed posts: going back to the post I suggested you avoid in section 1, I highly suggest that any assessments you make are built with sound reasoning, and that you make sure any information you present as facts are backed up with evidence. That said, you shouldn't need to go overboard with something like calcing Charizard vs Ferrothorn; only present evidence for cases that need evidence, like Charizard vs Meloetta, Slowbro vs Gyarados, etc. Even if your post is well-intentioned, presenting misinformation still takes away from your point.
I hope this helps people to understand how to better help and contribute to the metagame and community. I made this post because I noticed a growing sentiment that the ability to properly "contribute" is locked behind being staffed, which it really isn't. All of our resources and threads are open for participation and contribution at all times. That said, there will naturally be some positions that are limited to more seasoned veterans:
  • 1v1 Council
    • This position is limited to users with extremely proficient knowledge of the 1v1 metagame, and/or proficient knowledge and understanding of smogon's tiering philosophy and common practices, and have no recent history of frequent shitposting and/or harassing others.
  • VR Council
    • This position is limited to users with extremely proficient knowledge of the 1v1 metagame, and have no recent history of frequent shitposting and/or harassing others.
  • OM/Old Gens Council/TL
    • These positions require active users to maintain banlists and VRs, at least proficient knowledge of the metagame and/or being the founder of the metagame, as well as no recent history of frequent shitposting and/or harassing others
  • Tournament Hosts
    • To host tournaments, you need to be a user with a history of consistent smogon activity, such that the tournament doesn't fall behind schedule, as well as being familiar enough with smogon's tournament guidelines to know how to handle First Come First Serve, generating brackets, subs, extensions, activity decisions, etc. You also need to have no recent history of frequent shitposting and/or harassing others.
 

Alakazam

corrupt auth xd
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Cough You can also contribute by writing 1v1 analyses, cough which you can reserve here cough
 
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Alakazam

corrupt auth xd
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Remember when 1v1 Metagame Discussion was the most active thread? Pepperidge farm remembers.

On a separate tangent, ooh look matchups

Mega Gengar VR matchup (assuming at least 2 turn sleep and hitting hypnosis/focus blast)

char x: W
Char y: W
dnite: W
gyarados: W
magearna: W
metagross: W
Pz: W
lele: W, unless scarf
slowbro: W
Zygarde: W
Greninja: W
Jumpluff: W
Lando-T: W, unless scarf
Lopunny: L
Magnezone: W
Meloetta: W, unless psychic coverage
Mew: W
Aegislash: W
Altaria: W
Donphan: W
Gardevoir: W
Genesect: W
Kommo-o: W
Naganadel: W
Primarina: W
Fini: Inconsistent, Gen needs sludge wave, otherwise fini wins
mega ttar: W
mega venu: W
Mega Aggron: W
Celesteela: W
Chansey: Inconsistent, needs 3 turn sleep
Ferrothorn: W
Garchomp: W
mega garchomp: w
Heatran: W
Kartana: W
mawile: W
Necrozma: W
pinsir: w
mega sableye: L
Victini: W, unless scarf
volc: W
Zera: L
Archeops: W, unless scarf
Blastoise: W
Blaziken:Inconsistent, sub on protect or hypnosis on attack
mega blaziken: Inconsistent, sub on protect or hypnosis on attack
Blissey: Inconsistent, needs 3 turn sleep
Crustle: W
Deoxys-Speed: L
Mega Diancie: L unless sludge wave
Durant: W
Golem: W
Haxorus: W, unless scarf
Heracross: W
Hoopa u: W, unless scarf
incineroar: W
Krookodile: W
Kyurem: W
manaphy: W
Medicham: W
Sawk: W, unless scarf
Swampert: W
Togekiss: W, unless scarf
Avalugg: W
Blacephalon: W, unless scarf
Carracosta: W
Gallade: W
Mega Gengar: speed tie
Latias mega: W
latios: W, unless scarf
marowak: W
pheromosa: W
Porygon2: W
Scizor: W
Bulu: W
terrakion: W
Umbreon: W
Buzzwole: W
camerupt: W
Cloyster: W
Entei: W
Excadrill: w, unless scarf
infernape: W
Keldeo: W
Magneton: W
Nihilego: W
pidgeot: W (lmao no guard)
Pyukumuku: W
Rhyperior: W
Serperior: w
Skarmory: W
Thundurus-T: W
Type: Null: W
Volcanion: W
mega alakazam; L
Landorus: W, unless scarf
Lucario: W
ninetales-A: W
Quagsire: W
Salazzle: W
Sceptile: W
sceptile-Mega: W
aron: W
Breloom: W
Manectric: W
Relicanth: W
Slaking: W
Smeargle: W
Stunfisk: W

total: 116
Mgar wins: 90/116
inconsistent (can run scarf, lose to coverage, 50/50s): 21
Loss + scarf: 18
Loss: 5

So I’ve been meaning to bring up Mega Gengar for a while. This Pokemon is basically downright busted, cough cough if you’re lucky enough cough cough. RNG abuse in 1v1 is usually a tricky discussion, cause everyone doesn’t really agree at what levels RNG becomes unnaceptable, and when it just becomes part of the game that is Pokemon.

For me personally, I think that in order to properly gauge if a mon is a sufficiently broken RNG abuser, you need to take into account not only the Pokemon’s chance to win but also how much of the metagame that Pokemon can beat using its RNG strat. For example, Jirachi can technically beat any mon below 492 speed, and lacking inner focus. But, the chances of this actually happening against some of the most common Pokemon in the game, like Greninja and Mega Gyarados, and most Ground or Steel-types, is pretty slim, so in reality, its not that bad of an issue and can’t prove itself to be reliable. Something like an OHKO move, on the other hand, can beat any Pokemon it can land a hit on, barring sturdy Pokemon, 30% of the time. Acknowledging that Sturdy is one of the best abilities in 1v1, that would still allow OHKO moves to beat more than 80% of the metagame with 30% consistency, which to me seems absurdly broken/uncompetitive/whatever trigger word you want to use.

When you compare both the chances of winning through RNG and the coverage offered by this, it paints a picture of how overwhelming Mega Gengar can be. Mega Gengar has a 60% chance to land a Hypnosis, allowing it to already OHKO a sizeable chunck of the metagame. A base 130 ghost stab off of a 170 spa is no joke. For two turns of sleep, the odds move to 26% (.6 x .66 = .396 spooky) which basically allows Mega Gengar to beat everything thats not a Dark or Normal type. Although, Dark and Normal types aren’t a huge issue either, as Mega Gengar’s Focus Blast will put them to sleep, metaphorically.

As you can all see, this leads to Mega Gengar basically being capable of beating around 90% of the metagame, even more so if you don’t assume your opponent runs Choice Scarf. Only 5 Pokemon can hardcounter Mega Gengar. Not all Scarf Pokemon can beat Mega Gengar reliably, too. Against Scarf Greninja, Mega Gengar lives one attack, giving it the opportunity to win if it hits Hypnosis. Essentially, Mega Gengar gets above OHKO move accuracy odds at beating almost every Pokemon in the game. In addition to the sheer matchups, Mega Gengar is incredibly splashable on a team thanks to its perfect coverage, and will often psychologically warp a game around it, as most players don’t have teams with Mega Gengar answers, and will therefore need to worry if they should send their best Mega Gengar check or not. To me, thats pretty bad. But, I’m not everyone; I’d love to hear what people in 1v1 think of Mega Gengar: is it busted, or are people overestimating it?

P.S. if you think I’ve made any mistakes/forgot a mon to include in VR, lmk so I can address that and fix this post.

P.S.S. For this post i considered the gengar set to be hypnosis, hex, focus blast, and either Substitute or Sludge Wave.
 
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Alakazam

corrupt auth xd
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
idt anyone wants to muscle with those odds, thought we went over this "sleep broken" thing already
Not really just the sleep part thats the problem. Its Hypnosis + Hex + 130 speed and 170 spa + focus blast coverage. The cocktail of all of these traits makes Mega Gengar a problem imo, and something no other Pokemon can replicate effectively.
 

ryyjyywyy

Survivor Champion
Remember when 1v1 Metagame Discussion was the most active thread? Pepperidge farm remembers.

On a separate tangent, ooh look matchups

Mega Gengar VR matchup (assuming at least 2 turn sleep and hitting hypnosis/focus blast)

char x: W
Char y: W
dnite: W
gyarados: W
magearna: W
metagross: W
Pz: W
lele: W, unless scarf
slowbro: W
Zygarde: W
Greninja: W
Jumpluff: W
Lando-T: W, unless scarf
Lopunny: L
Magnezone: W
Meloetta: W, unless psychic coverage
Mew: W
Aegislash: W
Altaria: W
Donphan: W
Gardevoir: W
Genesect: W
Kommo-o: W
Naganadel: W
Primarina: W
Fini: Inconsistent, Gen needs sludge wave, otherwise fini wins
mega ttar: W
mega venu: W
Mega Aggron: W
Celesteela: W
Chansey: Inconsistent, needs 3 turn sleep
Ferrothorn: W
Garchomp: W
mega garchomp: w
Heatran: W
Kartana: W
mawile: W
Necrozma: W
pinsir: w
mega sableye: L
Victini: W, unless scarf
volc: W
Zera: L
Archeops: W, unless scarf
Blastoise: W
Blaziken:Inconsistent, sub on protect or hypnosis on attack
mega blaziken: Inconsistent, sub on protect or hypnosis on attack
Blissey: Inconsistent, needs 3 turn sleep
Crustle: W
Deoxys-Speed: L
Mega Diancie: L unless sludge wave
Durant: W
Golem: W
Haxorus: W, unless scarf
Heracross: W
Hoopa u: W, unless scarf
incineroar: W
Krookodile: W
Kyurem: W
manaphy: W
Medicham: W
Sawk: W, unless scarf
Swampert: W
Togekiss: W, unless scarf
Avalugg: W
Blacephalon: W, unless scarf
Carracosta: W
Gallade: W
Mega Gengar: speed tie
Latias mega: W
latios: W, unless scarf
marowak: W
pheromosa: W
Porygon2: W
Scizor: W
Bulu: W
terrakion: W
Umbreon: W
Buzzwole: W
camerupt: W
Cloyster: W
Entei: W
Excadrill: w, unless scarf
infernape: W
Keldeo: W
Magneton: W
Nihilego: W
pidgeot: W (lmao no guard)
Pyukumuku: W
Rhyperior: W
Serperior: w
Skarmory: W
Thundurus-T: W
Type: Null: W
Volcanion: W
mega alakazam; L
Landorus: W, unless scarf
Lucario: W
ninetales-A: W
Quagsire: W
Salazzle: W
Sceptile: W
sceptile-Mega: W
aron: W
Breloom: W
Manectric: W
Relicanth: W
Slaking: W
Smeargle: W
Stunfisk: W

total: 116
Mgar wins: 90/116
inconsistent (can run scarf, lose to coverage, 50/50s): 21
Loss + scarf: 18
Loss: 5

So I’ve been meaning to bring up Mega Gengar for a while. This Pokemon is basically downright busted, cough cough if you’re lucky enough cough cough. RNG abuse in 1v1 is usually a tricky discussion, cause everyone doesn’t really agree at what levels RNG becomes unnaceptable, and when it just becomes part of the game that is Pokemon.

For me personally, I think that in order to properly gauge if a mon is a sufficiently broken RNG abuser, you need to take into account not only the Pokemon’s chance to win but also how much of the metagame that Pokemon can beat using its RNG strat. For example, Jirachi can technically beat any mon below 492 speed, and lacking inner focus. But, the chances of this actually happening against some of the most common Pokemon in the game, like Greninja and Mega Gyarados, and most Ground or Steel-types, is pretty slim, so in reality, its not that bad of an issue and can’t prove itself to be reliable. Something like an OHKO move, on the other hand, can beat any Pokemon it can land a hit on, barring sturdy Pokemon, 30% of the time. Acknowledging that Sturdy is one of the best abilities in 1v1, that would still allow OHKO moves to beat more than 80% of the metagame with 30% consistency, which to me seems absurdly broken/uncompetitive/whatever trigger word you want to use.

When you compare both the chances of winning through RNG and the coverage offered by this, it paints a picture of how overwhelming Mega Gengar can be. Mega Gengar has a 60% chance to land a Hypnosis, allowing it to already OHKO a sizeable chunck of the metagame. A base 130 ghost stab off of a 170 spa is no joke. For two turns of sleep, the odds move to 26% (.6 x .66 = .396 spooky) which basically allows Mega Gengar to beat everything thats not a Dark or Normal type. Although, Dark and Normal types aren’t a huge issue either, as Mega Gengar’s Focus Blast will put them to sleep, metaphorically.

As you can all see, this leads to Mega Gengar basically being capable of beating around 90% of the metagame, even more so if you don’t assume your opponent runs Choice Scarf. Only 5 Pokemon can hardcounter Mega Gengar. Not all Scarf Pokemon can beat Mega Gengar reliably, too. Against Scarf Greninja, Mega Gengar lives one attack, giving it the opportunity to win if it hits Hypnosis. Essentially, Mega Gengar gets above OHKO move accuracy odds at beating almost every Pokemon in the game. In addition to the sheer matchups, Mega Gengar is incredibly splashable on a team thanks to its perfect coverage, and will often psychologically warp a game around it, as most players don’t have teams with Mega Gengar answers, and will therefore need to worry if they should send their best Mega Gengar check or not. To me, thats pretty bad. But, I’m not everyone; I’d love to hear what people in 1v1 think of Mega Gengar: is it busted, or are people overestimating it?

P.S. if you think I’ve made any mistakes/forgot a mon to include in VR, lmk so I can address that and fix this post.

P.S.S. For this post i considered the gengar set to be hypnosis, hex, focus blast, and either Substitute or Sludge Wave.
I love counting wins based on 40% chance to win and 28% chance to win too. (19.6% chance to win if you count hitting focus blast twice)
 
thank god we're finally talking about this mon again. my favorite part of team building is trying to make a team that can never ever be 3-0'd by anything and gengar is so centralizing in that aspect, since every time i don't have a scarf mon i run the risk of losing to it. i said it before and i'll say it again, we don't need 60% accurate win cons in a healthy metagame.
 

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