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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
Non-Pokemon elements, at least in my opinion, should only ever be considered for bans when they are solely the source of a problem in the metagame, not when they are just a part of the problem.

Multiscale alone is not what makes Dragonite borderline overpowered, but the fact that it has Multiscale AND pseudo legendary stats alongside one of the widest varieties of usable coverage, stab, and setup moves of any pokemon in the metagame.

When it comes to non-Pokemon cases, you need to consider how effective the aspect would be on more of a subpar Pokemon, say Phione for example. If Multiscale were the sole source of why Dragonite is OP, then the same should also apply for Phione. This is why OHKO moves are banned instead of the most viable users, as well as Evasion boosting and Accuracy lowering, as these moves placed little to no importance on the Pokemon using them having to be viable in order to win with them.

That said, we do have moments where the logic needs to be scaled carefully, namely the Perish Song ban. With Perish Song, it's a bit more contentious of a matter, as something like Perish Song Cubone is going to have much more difficulty dealing with attacks in order to survive to Perish Song activating than something like Lapras. Despite this, it was ultimately felt that enough Pokemon became problematic with Perish Song to warrant a ban on the move, rather than its best users.

Ultimately, you don't see any tiers with, say, V-Create being banned over Victini, and that's for good reason.
 
Phione is a bad example imo. It doesn't have neat setups like big sis(or big bro, they don't have a gender anyway) Manaphy does, and can only hope to be a stall asshat with Z-charm/Z-confide.
It would still have probably succeeded to be that PP stall mon if it had multiscale.
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Phione: 157-186 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
Not bad for a water type without sap sipper.
 
Multiscale is definitely the problem with dragonite. The ability allows dragonite to live almost any attack in the game, and giving multiscale to any decent pokemon without a 4x weakness to a common coverage type would be as broken, if not more broken than dragonite. May I remind you that dragonite is the ONLY non-banned pokemon that gets multiscale, so a multiscale suspect would only affect dragonite’s viability. If dragonite was limited to using inner focus, it would become waaaay worse, but still decent. Dragonite would manage to stay on the vr because of its good stats and movepool, but it would be very limited in the sets that it runs, without being able to fall back on its ability.
In conclusion, multiscale is the problem, dragonite suspect is not necessary.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
I'd be fine relegating Dragonite to being a niche threat with a Multiscale suspect, although precedent rules against banning Abilities.
 
Are you a veteran player who's been off their game since the banning of kyub? Man, it sure would be nice to go back to the good old days of 1v1, before all these newfangled sets and shenanigans. What even is a Regiserp anyway? Some USUM-exclusive Pokemon?
Or are you a newer player who's wondered about the meta with such powerful Pokemon as Kyurem-Black, Deoxys-Defense, and Tapu Koko and wanted to play a few games? Hell, maybe you're just curious about how Marowak-Alola became, for a brief period of time, a viable Pokemon. Or maybe you want to test out your own Yawnlax tech.
If you answered "yes" to either of these questions, than I have some good news for you. There's a discord tour for that!
https://discord.gg/BywZKAu
Y'all ready to do the time warp again?
 

Quote

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Guys, we're not suspecting Multiscale. I'm aware of its power, but when a Pokemon is an issue in a meta, you tackle the entire mon, not one part of it. Trying to determine the "most broken" aspect only leads to mediocre arguments about subjectivity and sends us in circles. We also don't have multiple Pokemon with Multiscale in our meta to compare to, meaning that we are ultimately picking apart something in an attempt to force balance. If we do the suspect, it'll be for Dragonite specifically, not Multiscale.
 
sup peeps,so JustANoobie started the multiscale discussion,which at first glance kinda makes sense.But it doesnt,the only other pokemon with multiscale other than dnite is lugia who is already banned,so banning multiscale is kinda stupid.But,if we did that would nerf dnite a huge amount.
(along with everything that osra said,i just dont want this to be as long as my first post ;-;)



but quote said no so get rekt,lol xd haha lmao
and bye,i will return when i can steal the laptop again,for now :3 stay memey.:blobuwu:
 
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Jocus

Banned deucer.
I would continue to advocate for a suspect, with Dragonite continuing to centralize the metagame. This is a statistical comparison between 1630 stats in August and September. Dragonite continues to have a higher statistical viability ceiling than Mega Charizard X and remains second most used Pokemon.

As to the items it's using, Choice Band usage has skyrocketed from 11.6% to 26.1%, and Choice Scarf usage has dropped from 20.2% to 14.8%. Weakness Policy as a surprise to normal Dragonite checks like Greninja has also almost doubled from 2.9% to 5.2%. Meanwhile, Flyinium Z usage has plummeted from 40.6% to 26.4%, and Dragonium Z sees the same albeit very minor with 19.4% to 18.3%. The use of other Z-Crystals have grown: Groundium Z from 1.5% to 3.0% and Firium Z from a part of "Other" to 1.7%. "Other" items' use has grown from 3.8% to 4.5%. Dragonium Z and Flyinium Z, the two most viable sets on the Sets VR, have fallen from being about 60% of Dragonite's items to just 45%. Prior conventional Dragonite sets are becoming less popular as it sees greater set variety to surprise many of its checks while it continues to be infamously unpredictable.

The usage of Dragonite checks is increasing.
Dragonite's usage has decreased by 0.9 percentage points (14.2% to 13.3%) partially because of the growing prevalence of its checks. I'll show this with a table:
Pokemon/Combo
Usage August
Usage September
Will-O-Wisp on Mega Charizard X​
36.825%​
42.117%​
Substitute on Mega Charizard X​
13.936%​
15.921%​
Flame Charge on Mega Charizard X​
61.210%​
62.835%​
Outrage on Mega Charizard X​
95.881%​
96.546%​
Mega Gyarados​
10.35278%​
12.60212%​
Magearna​
5.93619%​
7.93124%​
Greninja​
7.90483%​
7.92930%​
Mega Gardevoir​
7.04354%​
7.85710%​
Tapu Fini​
5.51070%​
7.74297%​
Skill Swap on Tapu Lele​
13.140%​
15.036%​
Dragonium Z on Zeraora​
12.244%​
20.219%​
And let's add Avathugg too because why not!​
0.27176%​
0.78881%​
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
I would continue to advocate for a suspect, with Dragonite continuing to centralize the metagame. This is a statistical comparison between 1630 stats in August and September. Dragonite continues to have a higher statistical viability ceiling than Mega Charizard X and remains second most used Pokemon.

As to the items it's using, Choice Band usage has skyrocketed from 11.6% to 26.1%, and Choice Scarf usage has dropped from 20.2% to 14.8%. Weakness Policy as a surprise to normal Dragonite checks like Greninja has also almost doubled from 2.9% to 5.2%. Meanwhile, Flyinium Z usage has plummeted from 40.6% to 26.4%, and Dragonium Z sees the same albeit very minor with 19.4% to 18.3%. The use of other Z-Crystals have grown: Groundium Z from 1.5% to 3.0% and Firium Z from a part of "Other" to 1.7%. "Other" items' use has grown from 3.8% to 4.5%. Dragonium Z and Flyinium Z, the two most viable sets on the Sets VR, have fallen from being about 60% of Dragonite's items to just 45%. Prior conventional Dragonite sets are becoming less popular as it sees greater set variety to surprise many of its checks while it continues to be infamously unpredictable.

The usage of Dragonite checks is increasing.
Dragonite's usage has decreased by 0.9 percentage points (14.2% to 13.3%) partially because of the growing prevalence of its checks. I'll show this with a table:
Pokemon/Combo
Usage August
Usage September
Will-O-Wisp on Mega Charizard X​
36.825%​
42.117%​
Substitute on Mega Charizard X​
13.936%​
15.921%​
Flame Charge on Mega Charizard X​
61.210%​
62.835%​
Outrage on Mega Charizard X​
95.881%​
96.546%​
Mega Gyarados​
10.35278%​
12.60212%​
Magearna​
5.93619%​
7.93124%​
Greninja​
7.90483%​
7.92930%​
Mega Gardevoir​
7.04354%​
7.85710%​
Tapu Fini​
5.51070%​
7.74297%​
Skill Swap on Tapu Lele​
13.140%​
15.036%​
Dragonium Z on Zeraora​
12.244%​
20.219%​
And let's add Avathugg too because why not!​
0.27176%​
0.78881%​
This kind of look at usage stats was something I was actually going to do before finding that dragonite was checked/countered by so much.

One thing I'd suggest, however, is looking into more particular sets that threaten dragonite, namely:
  • Kee Berry on Mew
  • Icium on Victini and Pheromosa
  • Haxorus + Choice Scarf on Haxorus
  • Ice Punch on Lopunny-Mega, Jirachi, and Metagross-Mega
  • Porygon2
  • Anything else listed in the checkscounters section for Dragonite's moveset usage stats
In response to some of the things you listed in your post:
  • Substitute, Flame Charge, and Outrage on Charizard-X aren't exactly products brought upon solely by Dragonite's presence
  • Nor is general use of individual Pokemon that are widely acknowledged as "good" or "relevant" like Gyarados, Gardevoir, Greninja, etc(somewhat). It'd be more niche things like Quagsire or Avalugg or the things I mentioned above to watch for, in my opinion.
  • Skill Swap Lele and Dragonium Zeraora also aren't really products of the Dragonite-dominant metagame. Skill Swap has about the same efficiency at beating Dragonite as your average Reflect/Calm Mind set, while Zeraora only really needs Fake Out + Outrage in general, maybe Bulk Up to be safe.
To really show the weight of Dragonite's influence and drive the point home, I'd go back to around the point where it started running Z-moves, which I believe was around the same time we suspected Mimikyu (September of last year), and go through all the stats to really see how they've changed over time.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
We can only infer causes through correlation and not do conclusive scientific experiments because there are no controlled scientific experiments in competitive Pokemon battling. Doing so would be nearly impossible because we cannot factor out everything and we don't work for Smogon.
(Basically a refutation of every "no evidence of cause" post.)
 
Last edited:
The usage of Dragonite checks is increasing. Dragonite's usage has decreased by 0.9 percentage points (14.2% to 13.3%) partially because of the growing prevalence of its checks. I'll show this with a table:
Pokemon/ComboUsage AugustUsage SeptemberWill-O-Wisp on Mega Charizard X36.825%42.117%Substitute on Mega Charizard X13.936%15.921%Flame Charge on Mega Charizard X61.210%62.835%Outrage on Mega Charizard X95.881%96.546%Mega Gyarados10.35278%12.60212%Magearna5.93619%7.93124%Greninja7.90483%7.92930%Mega Gardevoir7.04354%7.85710%Tapu Fini5.51070%7.74297%​
my quote got kinda fucked but these aren't just because of dragonite, metagame trends shift around every month or even within weeks. Wisp spdef zard is not a new tech it's been there for a good fuckin amount of time but just hasn't seen the usage it deserves due to the popularity of belly drum. Magearna loses to band eq so lol thats no check. Gyarados is probably the most reliable dnite check there is currently that isn't niche (like avalugg). Although I might add on Greninja that it used to run modest specs / icium / timid specs blizzard to beat dnite however it isn't as reliable anymore due to the outbreak (haha) of scarf dnite

I won't make a fully fleshed out post because that isn't what I'm known for. I don't think dnite is as broken as people make it out to be. The main thing keeping it under balance is gyara in my opinion and the fact that you really can't be every set at the same time. Just because it has a good movepool doesnt mean its gonna have 10 moves at once. We could see a suspect idc but this shit is not banworthy.
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
With a month left in the generation, am I right to assume that Dragonite will not be suspected?
 

Jocus

Banned deucer.
I'm thinking about if Dragonite is banworthy. How many hard counters are there?
Sets that need to be countered: Physical Flyinium Z, Special Flyinium Z, Physical Dragonium Z, Special Dragonium Z, Firium Z, Groundium Z, Choice Band, Choice Scarf. Niche, extremely rare sets like Haban Berry and Electrium Z are not counted. Mind games are assumed to be a win.
My list so far:
  1. Mega Gyarados
  2. Mega Charizard X w/ Flame Charge, Will-o-Wisp, and Outrage
  3. Mega Altaria
  4. Mega Slowbro
  5. Avalugg
  6. Mega Gardevoir
  7. Choice Scarf Haxorus
Are any of these incorrect? Did I miss any others?
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm thinking about if Dragonite is banworthy. How many hard counters are there?
Sets that need to be countered: Physical Flyinium Z, Special Flyinium Z, Physical Dragonium Z, Special Dragonium Z, Firium Z, Groundium Z, Choice Band, Choice Scarf. Niche, extremely rare sets like Haban Berry and Electrium Z are not counted. Mind games are assumed to be a win.
My list so far:
  1. Mega Gyarados
  2. Mega Charizard X w/ Flame Charge, Will-o-Wisp, and Outrage
  3. Mega Altaria
  4. Mega Slowbro
  5. Avalugg
  6. Mega Gardevoir
  7. Choice Scarf Haxorus
Are any of these incorrect? Did I miss any others?
bop https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-metagame-discussion.3646757/page-4#post-8240106
1 Gyarados-Mega hard L
2 Mew Kew hard counters. The only downside is that it needs an attack for Z-Dragon Dance techs. (E: Eriey would like for me to clarify that a common Kew set with an attacking move over Amnesia beats all relevant dnite sets)
3 Slowbro-Mega only loses if it predicts physical but runs into special with max spa stab zmoves and vice versa
4 Altaria-Mega similar case to Slowbro
5 Clefable banded Iron Head is not a thing-
6 Jumpluff just don't miss ez
7 Mawile-Mega not necessarily 100% hard L, but after seeing Firium lose to Mawile, it's basically as good a counter as you can get
8 Sableye-Mega just needs to predict physical vs special
9 Togekiss Z-Thunder Wave and Charm
10 Victini Icium beats all. Other sets all vary/lose
11 Aggron-Mega unless you're running min spdef vs Firium, burst into Head Smash should win
12 Haxorus Scarf > Scarf
13 Jirachi Scarf Ice Punch (note: loses to banded earthquake)
14 Necrozma berry eats p much any hit
15 Pheromosa z-blizzard is yikes, but wins. Even outspeeds Scarf
16 Porygon2 multiscale trace is yikes, not even band superpower saves you
17 Audino-Mega bulks hits across the board
18 Avalugg Avalanche is just a clean KO
19 Quagsire requires careful bulking, but can eat both physical and special hits quite nicely
and then 31 checks that beat a majority of dnite's main sets quite nicely but lose to one or two particular things.
 
I'm thinking about if Dragonite is banworthy. How many hard counters are there?
Sets that need to be countered: Physical Flyinium Z, Special Flyinium Z, Physical Dragonium Z, Special Dragonium Z, Firium Z, Groundium Z, Choice Band, Choice Scarf. Niche, extremely rare sets like Haban Berry and Electrium Z are not counted. Mind games are assumed to be a win.
My list so far:
  1. Mega Gyarados
  2. Mega Charizard X w/ Flame Charge, Will-o-Wisp, and Outrage
  3. Mega Altaria
  4. Mega Slowbro
  5. Avalugg
  6. Mega Gardevoir
  7. Choice Scarf Haxorus
Are any of these incorrect? Did I miss any others?
CharX loses to Physcial Dragonium with sub. Mega Gardevoir loses to Choice Scarf.
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
Mega Gardevoir loses to Choice Scarf.
252 Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Multiscale Gardevoir-Mega: 124-147 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk burned Dragonite Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 124-147 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
not guaranteed beyond fishing for rng with flinches and wow miss

0 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 298-352 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
or just going for the ohko-
 

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