Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Umm, while we're all debating about Mew, i think Sableye is inherently more broken.
In this meta, with the removal of z-moves, trick has become incredibly more useful, sableye can abuse this along with trick to essentially beat any mon it can live a hit from (barring dark types).
While it can struggle with mons with choice items as well, it can still beat mons that have low pp on the move they use (ex: Banded Pyro Ball Cinderace).
But, Sableye beats 100% of the time any mon with a choice item by running substitute with disable.

So two of its sets can destroy a large majority of the metagame:
Scarf trick, as well as Sub+Encore+Disable with roseli berri.


Out of AllFourtyOne's "VR", it beats all of the entrys with one of its two sets except dark types and dual stab running Sylveon (Honestly will become a thing)
This puts an incredible strain on teambuilding, forcing the usage of a dark type or some other mon that can deal with it.

I'd like to hear different opinions on this matter.
 

Rosa

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Instead of banning Mew, would it be reasonable to ban Imprison? I know that normally it is preferable to ban the Pokemon instead a specific move it abuses, but you could argue that Imprison is the problem in this circumstance.

Also, another filler option with Mew is Encore. Encore can punish Substitute users, make Trick users take their Choice Item back with prediction, and block opponent's Encore after using Imprison.
Move bans should only be considered when the move itself is creating either a broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy result on nearly everything that learns it.

In this instance, it isn't simply Imprison itself that is breaking Mew, but rather the combination of Imprison + Transform in order to force the opponent into Struggling themselves to death.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing for an Imprison + Transform ban, either, as this is a combination that has already existed in the past 5 generations (Smeargle) and has generally been shown not to be overbearing, with the exception of Smeargle's abuse of older gen Sleep mechanics.

Instead, Mew is the sole focus for a potential ban/suspect in this instance, on account of its usage of these moves AND its very competent 600 BST that enables it to outspeed foes and/or withstand attacks, both of which enable the strategy to be viable in the first place. Additionally, Mew is so versatile that it isn't just limited to the Imprison + Transform strategy, either. It has perfectly solid offensive stats and a plethora of attacks and setup that allow it to make use of several offensive strategies. I personally find Choice Band to be the best at covering mostly everything that threatens the Imprison + Transform set's weaknesses.
Umm, while we're all debating about Mew, i think Sableye is inherently more broken.
In this meta, with the removal of z-moves, trick has become incredibly more useful, sableye can abuse this along with trick to essentially beat any mon it can live a hit from (barring dark types).
While it can struggle with mons with choice items as well, it can still beat mons that have low pp on the move they use (ex: Banded Pyro Ball Cinderace).
But, Sableye beats 100% of the time any mon with a choice item by running substitute with disable.

So two of its sets can destroy a large majority of the metagame:
Scarf trick, as well as Sub+Encore+Disable with roseli berri.


Out of AllFourtyOne's "VR", it beats all of the entrys with one of its two sets except dark types and dual stab running Sylveon (Honestly will become a thing)
This puts an incredible strain on teambuilding, forcing the usage of a dark type or some other mon that can deal with it.

I'd like to hear different opinions on this matter.
I absolutely agree that Sableye is a huge threat, though for the time being, I believe we need to see further usage of it before coming to a conclusion, as it (among many other things) is still a very recent development.

That said, I do believe that Trick/Switcheroo + Choice items (for brevity's sake I'll just say Trick from now on) in general are mostly the inherent problem at hand, rather than just Sableye. I bring this up because, with Dynamax banned, we are now in the only generation of 1v1 to not have any means of blocking Trick beyond using Sticky Hold or bait items like Black Sludge.

Unlike the case of Imprison I mentioned above, Trick is absolutely abusable on nearly everything that gets it, even if on some pokemon like Cofagrigus, you'd only be using it for the sake of effectively deleting stall, much to the same effect of Perish Song when it was allowed.

The difference here, however, is that stall is not forced to get a OHKO against Trick users in the same way they were required to quickly KO Perish Song users, since the battle is actually allowed to continue until a pokemon drops to 0% HP, giving the stallers plenty more opportunities to KO the opponent before it's too late, assuming they even have a move to KO with.

In my opinion, it is absolutely Trick at fault here, rather than particular users, as the combination of Trick/Switcheroo + Choice items alone is enough to completely dismantle many stall strategies available to us right now. Added bulk to withstand attacks or the power to KO foes after Tricking them is just the icing on the cake.

With regards to Sableye, as far as things stand in the present, I do believe it is worth looking into as a potential suspect, but only if we look into Trick as a whole first, since it would be a massive waste of time to have to resuspect Sableye if Trick were banned after the fact, though it would really depend on whether Encore + Disable on its own is still enough to ban Sableye.
 
I have found Galarian Weezing with Levitate to be great fun as most people do not realize it is not running Neutralizing Gas until they try to use a Ground move. Of Course Mold Breaker Excadrill and Haxorus with Earthquake still kill me. I can usually one shot Dracovish with Weezing-G with Choice Specs on. Toxictricity with Punk Rock, Choice Specs, and Boomburt or Overdrive is also great fun!!

That Imprison plus Transform Mew is really annoying. I just forfeit when I see a Mew now.

EDIT: Well, I managed to beat one of those stupid Mews with a Garbodor no less. A Choice Banded Gunk Shot poisoned the Mew, the Mew then did their Imprison plus Transform thing but the poison hurt them enough to where Struggle could finish them off.
 
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Gunk Shot really is an amazing move!!

Lower accuracy yes, but it sure is awesome when it hits!! My Garbodor is a trash flinging machine! He may not always hit with it but when he does the enemy gets a used diaper coated in rotting magikarp carcasses doused in used motor oil to the face!!

I miss the Gen Six Gunk Shot animation though...IT'S GARBAGE DAY!!!
 

Rosa

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Gunk Shot really is an amazing move!!

Lower accuracy yes, but it sure is awesome when it hits!! My Garbodor is a trash flinging machine! He may not always hit with it but when he does the enemy gets a used diaper coated in rotting magikarp carcasses doused in used motor oil to the face!!

I miss the Gen Six Gunk Shot animation though...IT'S GARBAGE DAY!!!
Hi, I'm glad you're having fun, but I'm going to have to ask you to dial it back with posting every random thought you have here. While the Metagame Discussion thread doesn't necessarily have a set direction beyond what the title itself implies, you should at least keep posts to the point of being made for 1v1-pertinent things you want to gather attention for, like a fun pokemon you've been trying out or showcasing a whole team you've been seeing success with on ladder.
 
Hi, I'm glad you're having fun, but I'm going to have to ask you to dial it back with posting every random thought you have here. While the Metagame Discussion thread doesn't necessarily have a set direction beyond what the title itself implies, you should at least keep posts to the point of being made for 1v1-pertinent things you want to gather attention for, like a fun pokemon you've been trying out or showcasing a whole team you've been seeing success with on ladder.
K Sorry!:mad:
 

Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
Sylveon @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Quick Attack

Quick Attack Sylveon is quite fun!
It’s able to dodge around sturdy as well as clean up a few matchups. It’s able to eat Adamant Scarf Haxorus Iron Tail and Adamant Scarf darm iron head and KO both in return. In addition, mystical fire deals with the pesky ferrothorn.
 
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1576034762972.png

Appletun is a big boi

I made a little post on our friend here on a different thread but since that thread is a ghost town and this one is more lively, I might as well share the set:

Mike (Appletun) (M) @ Haban Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Apple Acid
- Substitute / Leech Seed / [Filler?]

Appletun has to be one of the most consistent checks to Dracovish available, which is a huge plus. Haban Berry also lets him deal with Dracozolt, Dragapult, Mold Breaker Haxorus (not Unnerve), and Hydreigon. Apple Acid is godlike and can turn some 3HKOs into 2HKOs (Sableye). It works well with Recover so he can stay healthy while the foe's SpDef keeps decreasing. You'll be clicking Draco Meteor a lot against the dragons I mentioned and it is also a great finisher for slower fights.

Thick Fat is the preferred ability here because it helps vs. Ice and it effectively adds a resistance to Fire. I have not really tested Ripen very much yet but it will probably end up being a meme set if anything (just use Thick Fat, he is better off using it).

In the end I feel like this will be niche because a handful of its bad matchups are very common (Mew, Darmanitan-G, Mimikyu, Togekiss), but he is still fair against more defensive teams and many of the dragons you will encounter.

also M I K E
 
I just played a 1v1 match and my Aegislash knocked out the opposing Haxorus with Steel Beam. But by using that move it KOed itself and I lost the match. Has that always been the case/purpose or am I just being dumb? If that's not the case, it should maybe be fixed.

Here's the replay for proof
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1027722285
yes thats how it works, its the same mechanic like Mind Blown blacephalon from sm
 
Hello,I have been brute forcing the meta game/ladder with this team.
Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/adament Nature
- Phantom Force
- Play Rough (stab)
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
Mimikyu is pretty much going to be a staple to the meta. With swords dance and phantom force this allows it beat aegislash. Shadow sneak allows it to pick off weakened mons. Other notable mons that I have faced/tested are galar darmanitan,ditto, and mew.


Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower/earthquake
- Zen Headbutt/Earthquake
Darmanitan-galar is a strong pick with it's base attack power of 140 plus gorilla tactics, and 95 base speed allowing it to out speed base 90 more notable excadrill.
item option are choice band and choice scarf. With choice band this adds to the power darmanitan all ready has. While choice scarf allows it to beat haxouros,duant, and scarf excadrill.
Icicle crash stab
flare blitz this and icicle crash are staple moves. ( with choice band it allows flare blitz to beat non invested in def aegislash even at -1)
Super power,Earthquake,and Zen headbutt are all move that can be moved around.
(Zen headbutt I used more for galar weezing however with investment weezing can survive it.)


Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast/psychic
- Trick

Togekiss is the I don't know how to team build so I put this mon on here. :)
Scarf and air slash so that you can outspeed and flinch stuff.
Dazzling gleam for killing dragons.
Fire blast help vs steel pokemon.
Psychic for poisen type mons
Trick to help beat mons that set up

For a different set you also run 12 spdef 244 speed 252 sp attack (sp def to survive thunder from timid dragapult, For non scarf varients.)
 

Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
Another Few cool sets I’ve been using
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 120 HP / 132 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Play Rough
- Superpower
- Trick

This Grimmsnarl Spread allows it to survive an Adamant Choice Scarf Excadrill Iron Head (Use Life Orb Exca tm) and OHKO with Superpower. Obvious Dual Stab and Prankster Trick because it’s fantastic.

Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 4 SpA / 88 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Steel Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt

This spread survives either 2 or a +2 Earthquake from Adamant crustle, as well as outspeeding Jolly Crustle. It also survives specs dragapult and Rotom heat’s Stab moves and ohkos in return.

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Poison Jab / X Scissor / Substitute
- Bulldoze

Life Orb Excadrill is best Excadrill. This is not a joke. It’s ability to beat Mew with Bulldoze + Earthquake is not to be underestimated. It also deals roughly similar damage to Band, and the damage loss doesn’t really affect most of the matchups band gains.

Tyranitar @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Taunt
- Crunch
- Earthquake

Survives Scarf Exca EQ and ohkos with its own EQ. Outspeeds mew and mimikyu at -1. Max attack for obvious reasons.

Hydreigon @ Haban Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 60 SpA / 200 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot

Survives choice specs dragapult and scarf hax (w/o any bulk I may add). Haban Dragon doing haban dragon things.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk
 
Ehy guys!!

The problem Sableye sub / protect + disable + encore + filler (here a kind of Sableye sets) , is taking too much in this metagame and is becoming quite unmanageable. Reasoning from the point of view of the builder, I find it quite limiting to think of having to almost necessarily put a dark mon base (you can think of other alternatives but you risk occupying other slots to stop carcinogenic things). Having a dark pokemon in the team prevents Sableye, Mew, whimsicott, disable dragapult etcetc but finding alternatives (for sab or generally prankster) means limiting one of the, and not the overall. This is usually accompanied (even by logic) by a dark bait / dark check. This leads even more to a limitation of the building, where instead of being "free" on 3 slots, you reduce yourself to having only 1 slot available.

1576167780663.png


The problem then moves to the objectively decent dark pokemon for the metagame. Personally, I think the viable mon of this metagame, can be counted on the fingers of one hand. This makes the mg monotonous and, under certain aspects, the team you go to build risks sucking for the "not-cancer" team.
Instead from the battling point of view, it turns out to be the braindead / skill less thing I've ever seen. Playing against sableye + dark check, takes you to a series of "mind-piloting / mind-cond" very high compared to your opponent that if he doesn't see dark mon click sableye, while if there is dark mon he still has a lot less """" psychological pressures"""""(obviously game speaking, you don't have to go to the psychologist after a game like this eh lol) on the choice of the lead.

In my personal opinion, I wouldn't go for the pokemon, but for the mechanics itself. Or go and take action on prankster + disable or disable + encore or similar combinations

Sorry for my sucks eng but I hope I made myself understood
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Prankster Trick + Disable?

Heehee. That's a good one.

1576171078796.png

Hatterene @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 44 SpA / 48 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam

This Pokemon nukes Sableye from orbit, that mon can't do anything worth a damn beyond a Trick due to Magic Bounce. It isn't a one-hit wonder role-wise, either. Magic Bounce has various applications against Whimsicott, Corsola, basically any mon that relies on a volatile status move gets their ass handed to them. As for the physical bulk, that's designed to tank CB Darmanitan-Galar's Icicle Crash and KO back with Mystical Fire after a Petaya Berry boost.

EDIT 1: Even further optimized spread. 12 Speed for outspeeding base 30s, Stored Power for better Unaware match-up
 
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I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream

Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
Ability: Weak Armor
Happiness: 160
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Def / 192 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Hyper Voice


I know, I know. "How is this Ice Cream cone viable in 1v1?!" relax. This Dairy Delight may be sweet on the outside, but I assure you it packs quite the punch to give your opponents a Brain Freeze!

The bread and butter...or the cream & sugar rather of this set lies in it's ability Weak Armor and it's move Freeze Dry.
  • Weak Armor - If a physical attack hits this Pokemon, Defense is lowered by 1, Speed is raised by 2.
  • Freeze Dry - 10% chance to freeze. Super effective on Water.
Weak Armor's affect grants Vanilluxe enough speed (484) to outspeed Pokémon such as Dragapult (421), Jolly-Scarfed Darmanitan-Galar (475) & Jolly-Scarfed Haxorous (483)

Q: But does Vanilluxe have the bulk to even live hits? A: Yes.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Superpower vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 252-298 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 422-498 (144 - 169.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Edited. Gorilla Tactics is not implemented into the Showdown Calculator) Sadly now Vanilluxe loses this match-up :(
252+ Atk Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 244-288 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 302-356 (86 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Outrage vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 244-288 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 398-470 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 242-285 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 273-322 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 277-327 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 314-370 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 244-288 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 342-404 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 237-280 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 268-316 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Corviknight Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 122-146 (40.8 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 180-213 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 236-282 (78.9 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 223-264 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 283-335 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 259-306 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 592-700 (184.4 - 218%) -- guaranteed OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 285-336 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


Final Thoughts: Vanilluxe at first glace is just meant to be the "Ice Cream Pokémon" but can be much more than that. It's in no way one of the best, but with it's solid stats & unique play-style it can be a good counter to some of the stronger Pokémon as well as a good stand alone.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Mew, Sableye, and Moody

With the removal of dynamax from the 1v1 metagame, the metagame has allowed itself to shift to an overall healthier place than it was before. However, as the cap behind set creation that was dynamax is now gone, several Pokemon have been able to shine with their own individual sets and techniques that have significantly effected the 1v1 Metagame. Let's talk about a few of them.

Mew in previous Gens was a jack of all trades, master of none kind of Pokemon, thanks to a greater power creep and less strategies available to it. However, with Dynamax removed, and the new moves it has at its disposal + less power creep to hold it back, Mew has now been able to rise as a clear top tier in the current metagame. Its most impressive new strategy is Imprison + Transform; previously only available to Smeargle, which was marred by low Speed and pitiful bulk, Mew is basically guaranteed to live multiple attacks from almost any Pokemon and completely invalidate their strategy, aided by items like Mental Herb, Kasib Berry, and Sitrus Berry. While counterplay to these sets do exist, they are usually stomped out by the plethora of also-viable offensive strategies Mew can use, particularly Choice Band and Choice Specs.


Sableye is also a Pokemon that, once its strategy was cracked, saw a meteoric rise; its access to Prankster + status moves like Disable, Encore, Trick, Taunt, Substitute, Protect, Night Shade, and Recover gives Sableye several options to essentially invalidate all Choice Item users, as well as all stall and setup offense. Obviously, Sableye is obviously hardcountered by Dark-types, but the next best way of beating Sableye involves using 2 super offensive moves that both significantly threatens Sableye, which is very hard to do in this deescalated metagame, or with mind games with Taunt, which can again be shut down with opposing Taunt or Trick Choice Scarf.

Moody is not really overpowering, per se, but the strategies involved in making Moody work are some of the least competitive viable options in the metagame. Octillery can use Protect + Thunder Wave + motherfuckin attract to win whenever the RNG gods feel inclined, whereas Glalie can use Protect + Substitute + Disable to give it the best odds. Both of these strategies are only enabled by Moody, and can turn what should be reliable matchups into complete luck.

Anyway, what are y'alls thoughts on all of these? Mew was definitely brought up earlier as a point of contention, and it seems the fears were not unjustified. And, while this doesn't relate to the effect on the 1v1 metagame right now, bear in mind that once Pokemon Home releases, Mew could get access to recovery options.
 
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Mew, Sableye, and Moody

With the removal of dynamax from the 1v1 metagame, the metagame has allowed itself to shift to an overall healthier place than it was before. However, as the cap behind set creation that was dynamax is now gone, several Pokemon have been able to shine with their own individual sets and techniques that have significantly effected the 1v1 Metagame. Let's talk about a few of them.

Mew in previous Gens was a jack of all trades, master of none kind of Pokemon, thanks to a greater power creep and less strategies available to it. However, with Dynamax removed, and the new moves it has at its disposal + less power creep to hold it back, Mew has now been able to rise as a clear top tier in the current metagame. Its most impressive new strategy is Imprison + Transform; previously only available to Smeargle, which was marred by low Speed and pitiful bulk, Mew is basically guaranteed to live multiple attacks from almost any Pokemon and completely invalidate their strategy, aided by items like Mental Herd, Kasib Berry, and Sitrus Berry. While counterplay to these sets do exist, they are usually stomped out by the plethora of also-viable offensive strategies Mew can use, particularly Choice Band and Choice Specs.


Sableye is also a Pokemon that, once its strategy was cracked, saw a meteoric rise; its access to Prankster + status moves like Disable, Encore, Trick, Taunt, Substitute, Protect, Night Shade, and Recover gives Sableye several options to essentially invalidate all Choice Item users, as well as all stall and setup offense. Obviously, Sableye is obviously hardcountered by Dark-types, but the next best way of beating Sableye involves using 2 super offensive moves that both significantly threatens Sableye, which is very hard to do in this deescalated metagame, or with mind games with Taunt, which can again be shut down with opposing Taunt or Trick Choice Scarf.

Moody is not really overpowering, per se, but the strategies involved in making Moody work are some of the least competitive viable options in the metagame. Octillery can use Protect + Thunder Wave + motherfuckin attract to win whenever the RNG gods feel inclined, whereas Glalie can use Protect + Substitute + Disable to give it the best odds. Both of these strategies are only enabled by Moody, and can turn what should be reliable matchups into complete luck.

Anyway, what are y'alls thoughts on all of these? Mew was definitely brought up earlier as a point of contention, and it seems the fears were not unjustified. And, while this doesn't relate to the effect on the 1v1 metagame right now, bear in mind that once Pokemon Home releases, Mew could get access to recovery options.
Moody will give Octillery & Glalie a better chance to shine in the meta which has seen so many mons already taken. Due to these being the only mons that can run this ability this gen in 1v1.

When you make a new set, the first thing you think of is, does this beat Mew? Smeargle was slower, and less bulky. Mew not only has a better ability it doesn't have to rely on "spore" to win like smeargle did.

What started out as a Mew counter, evolved into a set that is viable with Mew not in the meta. If Mew was to be banned, sableye will continue to use this set without little counter play due to its prankster status move. Plus is dark typing stops other pranksters from effecting it
 
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Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
Moody is fine, it’s not very good or a reliable win condition on the pokemon that can use it well.

Sableye should be suspected, as it’s unhealthy for the metagame, forcing people to run Strong fairies, Darks, Magic Bounce, and other bad tech to beat it.

Mew is almost tolerable, and should maybe be discussed a little more, as it clearly hasn’t reached its full potential yet
 
Banning Mew and Sableye is pretty obvious at this point. Mew is too versatile, and Sableye nullifies too many strategies. I don't really care if Moody gets banned or not since it's about as good as slapping brightpowder and attract on any decent Pokemon anyway.

Other ban thoughts:
Mimikyu - For whatever reason this was actually pretty close to winning in the poll on Showdown. It's clearly very good, but is nowhere near the monstrosity that is Mew. Keep for now.
Trick - I think this could eventually be too overbearing, especially if Sableye somehow gets banned before Mew does. It allows choice item users, especially scarf, to beat things they absolutely should have no business winning against otherwise, like setup and sub-seeders. However, we should wait until Mew and Sableye get banned, and then see how good it is in that meta first.
Sleep - no
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
Trick is not universal, and most Pokemon that have it are not viable. Take a look:
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Many Pokemon here that are viable are not primarily viable for their Choice item (and therefore Trick) sets: :trevenant:, :sableye:, :reuniclus:, :mimikyu:, :mew:, and :grimmsnarl:. Other Pokemon are niche: :gardevoir:, :gengar:, :rotom: formes, and :obstagoon:. This leaves three notable Trick abusers: :indeedee: (both male and female, similar enough), :chandelure:, and :togekiss:.

Trick's use is inconsistent in beating SubSeed and setup, as zmasta has claimed. The best SubSeeder, Whimsicott, can easily avoid Trick through its Prankster priority by using Substitute/Taunt, plus scout for attacking moves using Protect. Setup Pokemon like Swords Dance Mimikyu can 2HKO many, if not most, Pokemon on the Trick list. Alternatively, if setup Pokemon outspeed the Trick user, they have free choice after the Choice item is Tricked onto them. This means that they can choose an attacking move after they Trick their Choice item on you, and they might even get a notable stat boost on their attack!

Does Trick create mind games? Yes. Are notable matchups 50/50s? No. Whimsicott easily scouts using Protect; SD Mimikyu can 2HKO most Trick Pokemon without a setup boost. There is enough counterplay, and there is only a select few: Trick is not broken. We move on to the second criterion for bans: is Trick uncompetitive? I've already explained, Trick doesn't considerably decrease the effect of the interaction between player choice and game outcome in a high number of scenarios. This leaves the third criterion: unhealthiness. The only strategy that Trick shuts down regardless of how well the opponent plays is stall. But if Trick 3-0s your pure stall team, so probably will Taunt, why are you using three pure stall Pokemon on the same team?

Trick is just a strategy that a select few Choice item users can use to defeat stall.
 

Robyn

If you can read this, you are valid.
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
I would very seriously like a suspect test for both Mew and Sableye.

Both of these Pokemon have shown amazing versatility and are very clearly defining the metagame right now, and while there are solid arguments on both sides of ban/do not ban, I think that's exactly why a suspect would be nice. They're clearly on the edge of things at the very least.

I have no opinion on Moody whatsoever.
 
Moody is fine to me, as it's extremely inconsistent and its best abuser in Glalie still finds itself struggling on multiple fronts.

Mew feels like it could perhaps be suspected, but I feel like many Pokemon have adapted for it, and its inconsistent at best matchups against threats like Dragapult, Crustle, Mimikyu, and Hydreigon leave me opposed to a suspect as of right now. The meta still is relatively undeveloped, but it feels to me like much of the metagame has adapted to it a fair bit.

I'm still formulating an opinion on Sableye, although at the moment it seems like probably the most unhealthy of the three points brought up. Its counterplay being well-defined does make its presence significantly easier to deal with however.
 

pqs

u rly thought
sableye is annoying and broken, disable prot is cheese and basically forces you to counter it to make a "viable" team in this crushed meta.

mew should really be explored more with its movepool before we go any further with looking into banning it or not.

moody? inconsistent af and is really just a cheese joke in competitive pokemon /shrug

:rs/sableye: :rs/mew: :rs/glalie:
 
Trick is not universal, and most Pokemon that have it are not viable. Take a look:
Many Pokemon here that are viable are not primarily viable for their Choice item (and therefore Trick) sets: :trevenant:, :sableye:, :reuniclus:, :mimikyu:, :mew:, and :grimmsnarl:. Other Pokemon are niche: :gardevoir:, :gengar:, :rotom: formes, and :obstagoon:. This leaves three notable Trick abusers: :indeedee: (both male and female, similar enough), :chandelure:, and :togekiss:.

Trick's use is inconsistent in beating SubSeed and setup, as zmasta has claimed. The best SubSeeder, Whimsicott, can easily avoid Trick through its Prankster priority by using Substitute/Taunt, plus scout for attacking moves using Protect. Setup Pokemon like Swords Dance Mimikyu can 2HKO many, if not most, Pokemon on the Trick list. Alternatively, if setup Pokemon outspeed the Trick user, they have free choice after the Choice item is Tricked onto them. This means that they can choose an attacking move after they Trick their Choice item on you, and they might even get a notable stat boost on their attack!

Does Trick create mind games? Yes. Are notable matchups 50/50s? No. Whimsicott easily scouts using Protect; SD Mimikyu can 2HKO most Trick Pokemon without a setup boost. There is enough counterplay, and there is only a select few: Trick is not broken. We move on to the second criterion for bans: is Trick uncompetitive? I've already explained, Trick doesn't considerably decrease the effect of the interaction between player choice and game outcome in a high number of scenarios. This leaves the third criterion: unhealthiness. The only strategy that Trick shuts down regardless of how well the opponent plays is stall. But if Trick 3-0s your pure stall team, so probably will Taunt, why are you using three pure stall Pokemon on the same team?

Trick is just a strategy that a select few Choice item users can use to defeat stall.
1. You left out Switcharoo, the most notable user being Whimsicott. So it is silly to say that Trick isn't broken because it can't beat Whimsicott who is also capable of abusing an identical move. If we ban Sableye, then Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl will just take its place.

2. For Trick shutting down stall, Taunt and Encore can be countered with Mental Herb, but there is no item this gen to prevent Trick. Banning Trick, Switcharoo, and Mew should be enough to make some stall sets viable.
 

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