Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
Again, can we quickban Mew as uncompetitive? Its Imprison + Transform sets can run various techs like Overheat/Shadow Ball for offensive coverage (as pointed out by zioziotrip), Taunt to shut down status users, Agility for increased reliability against Choice Scarf Togekiss, and various weakness berries. Hell, it survives most unboosted super effective attacks without investment. Faster Taunt users lose to Mental Herb, which shakes off the Taunt, and Imprison seals the foe's own Taunt. Due to these various sets, the interaction of player choice with the game's outcome is minimized. Imagine if Gen 7 Smeargle got great bulk and decent Speed.

Edit: Plus it's so unpredictable that you have no consistent counterplay, you can run almost any set of your dreams, both offensive and defensive.
 
Last edited:
1575397100230.png
Mew has received a lot of attention lately and for good reason. Most people are probably aware of this by now, but for those of you who aren't Mew has received a fun little move 'Imprison'. It now has a new set that revolves around using Imprison and then Transform to force the opponent into 'Struggle'. Anything slower that fails to OHKO doesn't stand a chance against it thus making it feel uncompetitive for many and being the reason for why people feel the need to get rid of it.
Mew @ Mental Herb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Imprison
- Transform
- Taunt
- Filler
Filler can be anything from Sub to an attacking move depending on what you feel you need but attacking moves don't seem as viable on this set.
First, let's look at the different ways to beat Mew:
  • The many faster Sub Users blocking Transform.
  • Faster Pokemon in general.
  • Choice Scarf users either by Trick or OHKO/2HKO moves.
  • Grimmsnarl with Prankster Sub.
  • Super-effective moves from hard-hitting Pokemon.
  • Ditto, who also does not have to worry about Megas.
Also responding to points made by zioziotrip and Cantius:
  • Mew does not deal with Scarf Darmanitan even with Overheat as it only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO, EVing to guarantee a win here is not something Mew can afford.
  • Mew does not actually gain anything from having the ability to "change sets" as most coverage moves you could run aren't gonna hit very hard on anything and change matchup results.
  • Togekiss beats Mew by running Trick to lock Mew into a move, be it Agility as Cantius said or something else.
  • Many Pokemon have viable Choice Scarf sets which are often able to 2HKO Mew, and others like Dark-Types can actually OHKO Mew with a super-effective Knock Off.
The way I see it there are many Pokemon in the tier right now that can run sets that aren't even that weird or off-meta to counter Mew. While it is a dangerous speed trap, it's not like we didn't have plenty of those back in USUM. Sure some were more unreliable than others but still speed traps to consider nonetheless. I simply see it as just another Pokemon one has to consider when building. Despite being "unpredictable" I don't think it changes many matchups enough for it to deserve a ban. Feel free to change my mind though.
Again, can we quickban Mew as uncompetitive?
No. Please don't just ask for a quick ban for something that is not outright broken and still has ways to get countered.
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
Offensive sets can block Substitute/Trick, like you can use Flamethrower to beat Whimsicott
You only need 160 SpA EVs to be guaranteed to beat GDarm, Mew has so much natural bulk that it can afford to take EVs out of its bulk. It only needs 232 Spe EVs with Timid to outspeed Jolly Haxorus, you can use 240 to outspeed Hydreigon with Colbur Berry (you beat Nasty Plot naturally)
You're not OHKOing Mew with an unboosted Knock Off, that has 97.5 effective base power, you need a Choice Band / Life Orb boost

No. Please don't just ask for a quick ban for something that is not outright broken and still has ways to get countered.
Claiming it can be countered without considering the offensive sets? Give me the paste of a team that can't be c-teamed by one Mew set. For example, let's start with Mace's team that he shared:
Angel (Dragapult) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 220 Def / 252 SpA / 36 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Phantom Force

Shadow (Darmanitan-Galar) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Giga Impact

Signs (Excadrill) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
The countering set:
Mew @ Choice Band
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Close Combat

Survives any hit from Dragapult and OHKOes:
252+ SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 240-284 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 228-270 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mew Outrage vs. 0 HP / 220 Def Dragapult: 350-414 (110.4 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Outspeeds Galarian Darmanitan and OHKOes:
252+ Atk Choice Band Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 578-682 (164.6 - 194.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tanks any hit from Excadrill and OHKOes, crit lol:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew on a critical hit: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 542-638 (150.1 - 176.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is a testament to both Mew's offensive capabilities and its bulk
 
Claiming it can be countered without considering the offensive sets? Give me the paste of a team that can't be c-teamed by one Mew set.
Using specific moves just to counter a specific team does not make a new viable set and like pqs said it loses out on many other threats Mew normally beats. Dragapult could simply resort to haban to c-team that Mew for example.
 
As stated by Arai and pqs Mew is not some unbeatable mon because of its coverage. While its coverage is very good it lacks the stats to become a bannable issue. Every Mew set will have a counter that is not tailored to beat it. Every time you change the set to deal with one counter another pops up. Mew is a pokemon that can effectively tailor a set to deal with certain types of mons (ex:Imprison+Transorm is a good speed trap, Band deals with many Scarf mons) however this is nothing new or broken. Also, I believe Mental Herb is inferior to Sitrus as Mew needs two turns anyway and if you really want to beat slow Taunt mons just run it yourself then Imprison will prevent it, the health Sitrus gives is necessary for some matchups, most notably gives you a better chance against Scarf Darm.
Edit: To avoid making a post that just reiterates previous points I'll drop what I believe is its actual best set and two teams I've had success with.
Mew @ Choice Band
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Power Whip/Thunder Punch
- Close Combat /Flare Blitz
- Earthquake/Ice Punch/Poison Jab
The coverage is just a suggestion and you should tailor it to your team but Outrage is meant for Dragapult that fails to kill you and Earthquake has the potential to beat Aegislash. WP Aegislash and Physical still beat Mew. Other than that Mew's coverage deals with a lot of scarf mons that fail to kill it and various others. I'll go more in-depth in another post but this set is solid.
Eiscue @ Salac Berry
Ability: Ice Face
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Endure
- Icicle Crash
- Liquidation

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head

Mew @ Choice Band
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Power Whip
- Fire Punch
- Poison Jab

A team that utilizes Band Mew to check what beats Eiscue and WP Aegislash. By no means a broken team but it's pretty fun.
Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Imprison
- Transform
- Substitute
- Overheat

Sylveon @ Throat Spray
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 12 SpA / 244 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Yawn
- Wish
- Hyper Voice

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge
Darm checks Dragapult and the rare Gengar. Sylveon can beat other fast mons that Darm can't kill and Mew speed traps anything under 97 speed. The issue with the team is no way to deal with Darm outside of a speed tie. Still, a solid team that lures in slows and fasts then can deal with them.
 
Last edited:
First, let's look at the different ways to beat Mew:
  • The many faster Sub Users blocking Transform.
  • Faster Pokemon in general.
  • Choice Scarf users either by Trick or OHKO/2HKO moves.
  • Grimmsnarl with Prankster Sub.
  • Super-effective moves from hard-hitting Pokemon.
  • Ditto, who also does not have to worry about Megas.
Let me preface this by saying that I don't feel Mew as at a point where it should be considered banworthy, (I'll go further into my reasoning for this at the end of my post) however I do think Araii oversimplifies Mew's versatility. In talking about an imprison, transform set its probably going to look something like this:
Mew @ Filler
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: Filler / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Imprison
- Transform
- Filler
- Filler
Within these filler slots, Mew actually has a lot of options to beat a large number of its counters, albeit some of them being quite niche.
Mental Herb: allows Mew to beat faster taunters.

Colbur/Kasib/Tanga Berries in combination with 100/100/100 bulk do allow Mew to bulk a lot of shit that it couldn't otherwise, further establishing Mew as a 100 base speed speed trap as with the relevant berry, it can bulk one hit from pretty much anything neccesitating its opponents to outspeed it. Just for a bit of reference: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tanga Berry Mew: 262-310 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Then even if they do outspeed they then need to deal pretty relevant damage: 252+ SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kasib Berry Mew: 94-112 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO.

Sitrus Berry: Allows Mew a little more survivability against non-super-effective opponents: 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) would win otherwise but the 25% heal is enough to swing this.

Taunt/Substitute: I've put these two together because they function fairly similarly, their key purpose on the set is not for use but so Mew, through use of imprison, can prevent opponents from using them against it.

Offensive moves: I'm not going to list these individually because they all function almost identically and help serve three different objectives:
  • To, in combination with also running substitute, allow Mew to beat faster substitute users. Peep
  • To serve as a wincon in and of itself, for example Scarf Hydreigon will almost always beat an imprison transform Mew but carrying dazzling gleam will allow the Mew to win this. However without the support of Band/Specs, there are very limited matchups which Mew can win in this way, often simply lacking the offensive presence to OHKO these threats.
  • To in a similar manner to taunt/substitute prevent the opponent from using these moves (as niche as it sounds, for shadow ball and dark pulse it is relevant enough to be a consideration and both moves can still function to complete the first objective) Peep
Aight hear me out on this one, Magic Room: Bops scarf trick shenanigans, also blocks the speed boost from scarf and since the majority of pokemon carrying scarf are below 100 base speed you don't actually lose out clicking magic room over turn 1 if they are scarf and don't happen to click trick Peep

On top of this, Mew can run Band/Specs sets that can allow it to beat out a lot of the scarf mons that threaten its imprison/transform set.
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Mew Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However having said all this, most of these sets/options are quite niche in what they beat, there is a relatively large opportunity cost for running a lot of these other options and to that extent I would probably liken Mew this gen far more to something like Greninja in SM, than to Mimikyu or Kyub which whilst sharing the trait of being rather versatile were able to beat out a much larger portion of the metagame with each of their sets which is to my mind what pushed them beyond the point of balance and subsequently resulted in their ban from the metagame.
 
Mew is definitely suspect-worthy at the very least right now.
Through imprison-transform, it can beat almost any slower poke excepting Grimmsnarl with the help of berries as Cabbbages as mentioned (yes, including Aegislash) .
Scarf Trick users and other faster pokemon lose to the quite potent offensive sets. I've had a good experience with Specs although as others have mentioned Scarf and Band are viable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mew Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 340-400 (107.2 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 241-285 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Looking at Arai's list of "counters"
  • The many faster Sub Users blocking Transform.
  • Faster Pokemon in general.
  • Choice Scarf users either by Trick or OHKO/2HKO moves.
  • Grimmsnarl with Prankster Sub.
  • Super-effective moves from hard-hitting Pokemon.
  • Ditto, who also does not have to worry about Megas.
Only one of these is valid when it comes to Mew as a whole: faster substitute users like Cinderace and Inteleon can outmuscle Mew by OHKOing even offensive sets. Let's look at the rest of these: Faster pokemon in general usually fold to offensive attacks from Specs or CB sets, many others have demonstrated this. Scarf users just lose to specs or band, again, they don't have the offensive ability while running scarf to get past Mew's insane bulk. Grimmsnarl dies to Sludge Wave or Gunk Shot from offensive sets, Super-effective moves are eaten up by berries, and Ditto not only loses to harder-hitting specs sets that it fails to OHKO but is also unviable in 1v1.
 

Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
Mew is definitely suspect-worthy at the very least right now.
Through imprison-transform, it can beat almost any slower poke excepting Grimmsnarl with the help of berries as Cabbbages as mentioned (yes, including Aegislash) .
Scarf Trick users and other faster pokemon lose to the quite potent offensive sets. I've had a good experience with Specs although as others have mentioned Scarf and Band are viable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mew Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 340-400 (107.2 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 241-285 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Looking at Arai's list of "counters"

Only one of these is valid when it comes to Mew as a whole: faster substitute users like Cinderace and Inteleon can outmuscle Mew by OHKOing even offensive sets. Let's look at the rest of these: Faster pokemon in general usually fold to offensive attacks from Specs or CB sets, many others have demonstrated this. Scarf users just lose to specs or band, again, they don't have the offensive ability while running scarf to get past Mew's insane bulk. Grimmsnarl dies to Sludge Wave or Gunk Shot from offensive sets, Super-effective moves are eaten up by berries, and Ditto not only loses to harder-hitting specs sets that it fails to OHKO but is also unviable in 1v1.
inteleon and cinderace can also BOTH lose to speed control + taunt (Electroweb/Rock Tomb)
 

Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
Sorry for double post

Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-

:mew: Mew

:mimikyu: Mimikyu

:dragapult: Dragapult

:Dracovish: Dracovish

:Golisopod: Golisopod

:Corviknight: Corviknight

:Whimsicott: Whimsicott

:Excadrill: Excadrill

:Darmanitan-Galar: Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B

:Crustle: Crustle

:Haxorus: Haxorus

:Indeedee: Indeedee-F

:durant: Durant

:sylveon: Sylveon

:duraludon: Duraludon

:reuniclus: Reuniclus

:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl

:cinderace: Cinderace

:gastrodon: Gastrodon

:aegislash: Aegislash

:rotom-mow: Rotom Mow

:rotom-wash: Rotom Wash

:rotom-heat: Rotom Heat

:corsola-galar: Corsola-G

:hydreigon: Hydreigon

:tyranitar: Tyranitar

:silvally: Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-

:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn

:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr

:dracozolt: Dracozolt

:weezing-galar: Weezing-G

:bewear: Bewear

:type-null: Type: Null

:togekiss:Togekiss

:inteleon:Inteleon

:rillaboom: Rillaboom

:centiskorch: Centiskorch

:eiscue: Eiscue

:goodra: Goodra

:arcanine: Arcanine

:dubwool: Dubwool

:snorlax: Snorlax

:drampa: Drampa

:toxtricity: Toxtricity

:kommo-o: Kommo-o

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
 
Last edited:

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Sorry for double post

Prototype VR (we’ve had a few days to see how this meta has turned out)
Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-
Mew
Mimikyu
Dragapult
Dracovish
Golisopod
Corviknight
Whimsicott
Excadrill
Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B
Crustle
Haxorus
Indeedee
Durant
Sylveon
Duraludon
Reuniclus
Grimmsnarl
Cinderace
Gastrodon
Aegislash
Rotom Mow
Rotom Wash
Rotom Heat
Corsola
Hydreigon
Tyranitar
Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-
Ferrothorn
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Weezing
Bewear
Type: Null
Togekiss
Inteleon
Rillaboom
Centiskorch
Eiscue
Goodra

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
A few questions/comments about this VR:

-Why did you put Golisopod so high, above Durant and alongside the likes of Mew and Dragapult nonetheless? Haven't seen it a whole lot on ladder

-On a similar note, what's so crazy about Silvally? I've heard you say stuff about how unpredictable it is in the 1v1 room but I haven't really seen it on ladder, like, at all. I would love to believe its at least B-tier viable in some format now but I need some more tangible evidence, especially seeing as you put it above Type:Null which imo is a very scary pick

-This is nitpicking but you might wanna specify Corsola and Weezing are their Galarian forms like you did for Darmanitan

As for things I'd change: Rank Indeedee-Female separately somewhere, perhaps a bit below the male variant. Its slower and weaker, but the extra bulk can help it out in some match-ups like VS Dracozolt and it generally can still take out the same things. Also raise Type:Null, even without Confide and Return it's still insanely hard to break, Shadow Claw is a dank tech on it to beat Ghosts not named Corsola-Galar it now has the room for.
 

Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
A few questions/comments about this VR:

-Why did you put Golisopod so high, above Durant and alongside the likes of Mew and Dragapult nonetheless? Haven't seen it a whole lot on ladder

-On a similar note, what's so crazy about Silvally? I've heard you say stuff about how unpredictable it is in the 1v1 room but I haven't really seen it on ladder, like, at all. I would love to believe its at least B-tier viable in some format now but I need some more tangible evidence, especially seeing as you put it above Type:Null which imo is a very scary pick

-This is nitpicking but you might wanna specify Corsola and Weezing are their Galarian forms like you did for Darmanitan

As for things I'd change: Rank Indeedee-Female separately somewhere, perhaps a bit below the male variant. Its slower and weaker, but the extra bulk can help it out in some match-ups like VS Dracozolt and it generally can still take out the same things. Also raise Type:Null, even without Confide and Return it's still insanely hard to break, Shadow Claw is a dank tech on it to beat Ghosts not named Corsola-Galar it now has the room for.
Silvally’s high base stat total of 570 makes it very strong along with its ability be any type it wants, and it’s movepool allows it to be very versatile, along with the Multi attack buff.

Golisopod is incredibly strong against the top pokemon rn such as Mew Darmanitan, dracovish, Excadrill, and Whimsicott. It’s high physical attack and bulk allows it to be a great life orb attacker with a good number of move options with the addition of close combat.
 
Yung Dramps

Yeah the fact that Silvally got a buffed Multi Attack move, and can be ANY type it wants, will make it a huge threat in tour play. Furthermore, with base 95's across the board, it will be a very hard to predict mon. I don't really know what types or sets will be good yet, but I believe it will become one of those mons where there isn't a standard set. Thats what'll make it good
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Silvally’s high base stat total of 570 makes it very strong along with its ability be any type it wants, and it’s movepool allows it to be very versatile, along with the Multi attack buff.

Golisopod is incredibly strong against the top pokemon rn such as Mew Darmanitan, dracovish, Excadrill, and Whimsicott. It’s high physical attack and bulk allows it to be a great life orb attacker with a good number of move options with the addition of close combat.
Yung Dramps

Yeah the fact that Silvally got a buffed Multi Attack move, and can be ANY type it wants, will make it a huge threat in tour play. Furthermore, with base 95's across the board, it will be a very hard to predict mon. I don't really know what types or sets will be good yet, but I believe it will become one of those mons where there isn't a standard set. Thats what'll make it good
Truth be told, I'm still skeptical. Guess I'm so used to seeing my baby Arceus being condemned to bottom of the barrel tiers like ZU, but aside from the Multi-Attack buff the issues of middling stats and coverage still exist. It was terrible last gen, and even now with a culled Pokedex I'm not holding my breath.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Sorry for double post

Prototype VR (we’ve had a few days to see how this meta has turned out)
Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-
Mew
Mimikyu
Dragapult
Dracovish
Golisopod
Corviknight
Whimsicott
Excadrill
Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B
Crustle
Haxorus
Indeedee-F
Durant
Sylveon
Duraludon
Reuniclus
Grimmsnarl
Cinderace
Gastrodon
Aegislash
Rotom Mow
Rotom Wash
Rotom Heat
Corsola-G
Hydreigon
Tyranitar
Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-
Ferrothorn
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Weezing-G
Bewear
Type: Null
Togekiss
Inteleon
Rillaboom
Centiskorch
Eiscue
Goodra

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
missing Arcanine, toxicitry, dubwool, drampa, and snorlax.

also, if anyone can make kommo-o work, that would be cool, but its gonna again be super weak to the top tier threats, but also lost a lot of other threats in general as well.
 
missing Arcanine, toxicitry, dubwool, drampa, and snorlax.

also, if anyone can make kommo-o work, that would be cool, but its gonna again be super weak to the top tier threats, but also lost a lot of other threats in general as well.
About Kommo-o, Yech talked about a haban set with ID/bulk up set with noble roar, but this is my personal one:
Kommo-o @ Haban Berry
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Aura Sphere
- Taunt

Haban enables it to beat a bunch of the dragons in the tier, wuch as dragapult, haxorus and dracovish.
I opted for special instead of physical, mainly because clanging scales go through sub and that most bulky mons run physical defense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pqs

Le Creme Brule

Formerly AllFourtyOne
Kommo-o @ Haban Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 92 HP / 180 Atk / 208 SpD / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Poison Jab
- Taunt
- Close Combat

My personal set
Lives band hax outrage and Whimsicott moonblast
Outspeeds dubwool to provent the Cotton Guard
 
Sorry for double post

Prototype VR (we’ve had a few days to see how this meta has turned out)
Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-
Mew
Mimikyu
Dragapult
Dracovish
Golisopod
Corviknight
Whimsicott
Excadrill
Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B
Crustle
Haxorus
Indeedee-F
Durant
Sylveon
Duraludon
Reuniclus
Grimmsnarl
Cinderace
Gastrodon
Aegislash
Rotom Mow
Rotom Wash
Rotom Heat
Corsola-G
Hydreigon
Tyranitar
Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-
Ferrothorn
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Weezing-G
Bewear
Type: Null
Togekiss
Inteleon
Rillaboom
Centiskorch
Eiscue
Goodra
Arcanine
Dubwool
Snorlax
Drampa
Toxtricity
Kommo-o

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
While I agree for the most part I do have a few things to add. Imo Excadrill is not a top tier pick. It is around Haxorous for me. I laddered a massive amount yesterday with my alt bagel bang and Excadrill does not perform on the same level as most other things on that list. It would probably be around a B+ for me. I do agree that Golisopod is being slept on. Aegislash is also probably a A or A-
 
  • Like
Reactions: pqs
missing Arcanine, toxicitry, dubwool, drampa, and snorlax.

also, if anyone can make kommo-o work, that would be cool, but its gonna again be super weak to the top tier threats, but also lost a lot of other threats in general as well.
Why Drampa? What does it have over other Dragon types like Dragapult, Haxorus, Goodra, Dracovish, Hydreigon, Duraludon... basically the other notable dragon types?

Just curious, not making a statement that it is unviable
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
I think Hippowdon is worthy of mention, its niche over other Ground-types like Rhyperior and Excadrill is that it gets coverage options like Crunch for Dragapult and Thunder Fang for Gyarados, plus it has enough bulk to be EV'd to take attacks like Specs Dragapult's Hydro Pump
 
  • Wow
Reactions: pqs
I wholeheartedly don't believe it should be a mechanic of the game that is to blame for a meta becoming unfavorable in the eyes of the people. It is very important for people to understand that Dynamaxing isn't a tangible element that you can simply remove like an individual pokemon or item or whatever, but rather the entire concept of something, akin to all abilities, all items, all moves, etc. Removing it would essentially be removing part of what makes a pokemon... a pokemon.

Gen 1 -> Gen 2: Items and Spikes enter the metagame, punishing switchins while enabling pokemon to be sustainable at the same time.
Gen 2 -> Gen 3: Abilities and Natures enter the metagame and suddenly pokemon are no longer capable of having 252 in all 6 stats.
Gen 3 -> Gen 4: The Physical/Special split changes dozens of offensive pokemon, in addition to gamechanging new hazards + removal.
Gen 4 -> Gen 5: Hidden Abilities make dozens of pokemon more viable, in addition to causing the infamous weather wars.
Gen 5 -> Gen 6: Mega Evolutions make a new group of viable pokemon while weathers were nerfed to 5/8 turns.
Gen 6 -> Gen 7: Z-Moves further enable hundreds of pokemon to perform better by means of technique.

Every generation has had some drastic new mechanic that shifted people's basic understanding of competitive pokemon, in addition to multiple incredibly significant elements that introduced major changes to the way that competitive pokemon was played, from Stealth Rock to Scald to Sticky Web and so forth. Stealth Rock, in particular, had a lot of discussion behind it; many points of which I absolutely believe could be applied to the discussion of Dynamaxing, so I spent a lot of time reading through these threads so that you don't have to! (Though you probably still should)

There are a handful of ideologies that can be gleamed from all of these threads and posts that should absolutely be taken into account when considering what constitutes a ban for a pokemon vs any tool used by pokemon:

1. Evaluations cannot come without evidence of the claims made.
  • This means something like usage stats, and just players in general trying to wrap their minds around understanding what the best strategies in the metagame currently are before attempting to make any significant decisions beyond obvious ones like banning the cover legendaries at the start of the generation.
  • The amount of "centralization" something forces upon the meta will always be subjectively drawn by whoever you ask, though it should always at least require the consideration of usage stats to visibly observe with certainty that something is currently dominating the metagame, as otherwise, the argument simply boils down to hearsay from the likes of people who "never had trouble with X", on the consideration that they always happened to be using counters to X, whether knowingly or not.
  • As an example, consider the case of Kyurem-Black, wherein its presence mandated pokemon to run what would nowadays be considered bad sets in order to beat it; the likes of fast + physically defensive Charizard-X + Y, Choice Specs / Fairium physically defensive Primarina + Tapu Fini, etc. With Kyurem-Black gone, the usage of these spreads and items died down, making it evident that Kyurem-Black was a major part of why these bad sets were considered "necessary". It is this kind of observable change with banned aspects that we should be looking for and even predicting will happen given that the hypothetical X element is banned, and whether or not the changes forced upon X's victims are damning enough to warrant a ban.
2. In the debate of creating a "better" metagame as opposed to a "pure" metagame, the latter is less subjective.
  • A very important argument that was prominent in almost all of the Stealth Rock discussion was coming to the conclusion of whether it is a "good" metagame or a "pure" metagame that we should strive for, with the difference between the two being that a "pure" metagame strives to maintain as many of the elements provided while only removing the most egregious cases of something being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, while a "good" metagame is one that is ultimately subjectively agreed upon by a majority of people to be better than what it was previously, even if it means removing something that wasn't necessarily problematic towards the greater metagame.
  • The wording of the general tiering policy framework puts forth notions that "pure" metagames are preferred, though it doesn't necessarily state why that is the case. A few of the posts I linked above argue that this method of handling metas is ideal on account of the fact that banning with the intention of producing a "good" or "better" or "improved" metagame is entirely subjective and may very well lend to the idea that anything can be suspected given enough of an outcry from the community, rather than the provision of any kind of evidence that something truly needs to be removed.
3. Suspect tests and discussions are a means to evaluating why the suspected element was or should be removed.
  • With the understanding set forth by point 2 that only something egregiously harmful to the metagame deserves to be removed, the task of demonstrating those egregious characteristics falls to the side attempting to instigate change within the metagame.
  • Demonstrating something as an element that deserves to be banned is not simply something that can be done by show of support when someone makes a post that you agree with, but rather with rigid evidence that a conclusion can be drawn from.
4. The point of suspect tests and bans is ultimately to lower the number of broken, uncompetitive, and/or unhealthy elements present within the metagame.
  • With a hypothetical Dynamax suspect, it'd be hard to discern qualities that warrant a clear need for suspect, as the main thing we'd be seeing is that the metagame is clearly different without it. Not more balanced, but different. There is no certainty that a no-dynamax metagame would even have less broken aspects than the one we have now. Everything that even comes close to being broken in this meta turns out to be bugged, on account of ingame mechanics functioning differently from how they're implemented on PS.
5. An alternative metagame is a bad idea.
  • With point 4 in mind, an alternative metagame without Dynamax seems like a clear way to discern whether or not the meta would really balance out without it. The problem with this notion is outlined in a few of the links above, regarding the possibility of splitting the community we have down the middle between those who prefer the meta with Dynamax and those who prefer the meta without it.
  • While it does sound idealistic to see how a metagame without Dynamax would play out, that is solely caving in to the idea that there is a problem with Dynamax to begin with, which, if there were, then it should be very clearly discernible by means of evidence.
6. Discerning something as a problem means that there has to be a problem in the metagame.
  • If Dynamax were truly the source of the metagame being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, then there already should have been suspect-worthy pokemon that got to where they were because of their abuse of Dynamax.
  • Not only do there need to be Pokemon in general that are bannable solely because of their abuse of Dynamax, just about every pokemon needs to be capable of sweeping, haxing, or otherwise creating an unfavorable scenario for a large majority of opponents, or at least large enough a group to be deemed as overcentralizing.
7. Discerning problems is a matter of skill.
  • The tiering policy framework does a sufficient job at explaining what skillful play is, on a teambuilding and battling level. With the framework's definition in mind, it comes to us to determine whether or not Dynamax as a mechanic contradicts any part of it, and by how much it does so.
  • When doing this, it is important to differentiate when something is simply a change to how skillful play is carried out, as opposed to when skillful play is actually being punished in the face of unskillful play.
    • An example of a change to skillful play would be the transfer from gen 3 to gen 4, where the newfound presence of Stealth Rock effectively mandated that teams have a defogger or spinner in order to clear them out.
    • An example of skillful play being punished by unskillful play is the use of evasion boosting / accuracy dropping to avoid otherwise game-ending attacks, thus placing the result of the game in the hands of RNG.
Ultimately, Dynamax is a generation-defining feature of the Sword and Shield metagame, much like Stealth Rock was for Diamond and Pearl, Hidden Abilities for Black and White, Mega Evolution for X and Y, and so forth. Removing it would effectively be forfeiting the identity as a Gen 8 metagame and molding it into an OM of itself, rather than abiding by the standards set in place by the new generation.
Straight Facts -
I Agree with everything put into this post, I feel like cutting out Dynamax would be selling Gen 8 competitive short. It's like... imagine if we cut out megas at the beginning of Gen 6? Z-Moves at the beginning of 7? Dynamax is now a central part of the metagame and Gen 8 as a whole, removing it is... quite literally altering the game into something else entirely.

I don't want to play Gen 7.5, I want to play Gen 8. (SARCASM)
 
Last edited:
Straight Facts -
I Agree with everything put into this post, I feel like cutting out Dynamax would be selling Gen 8 competitive short. It's like... imagine if we cut out megas at the beginning of Gen 6? Z-Moves at the beginning of 7? Dynamax is now a central part of the metagame and Gen 8 as a whole, removing it is... quite literally altering the game into something else entirely.

I don't want to play Gen 7.5, I want to play Gen 8. (SARCASM)
The argument that the value of an intended mechanic is absolute just based on the fact that it is an intended mechanic is kind of silly. It has already been established that dmax and gmax are a ban-worthy issue, so it should be no different from any other ban. Similar to any banned pokemon, ability, or move dmax is a part of the game susceptible to be removed or restricted. Yes dmax is a very important part of Gen 8, this does not mean it is suddenly exempt from being removed. Specific Mega Stones have been banned in the past. Although, to me the most important factor is that dmax/gmax is not a fun mechanic for 1v1. It does not lead to a entertaining or interesting metagame and instead turns 1v1 into 50v50.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
After some failed experiments that didn't get me far above low ladder, I've finally found something that works and has currently lifted me to 1573 ELO, #23 as of typing.

Darmanitan Sprite
While we've been discussing potential VR placements in the Showdown room, something caught my attention: Silvally potentially being a viable pick. I was skeptical, so I decided to make something for one of its more unconventional-sounding forms: Silvally-Dark. While rather weak, Icy Wind lets it speed control, with the EVs designed to take out Whimsicott with Poison Fang assuming it just clicks Moonblast turn 1. The bad Poisoning effect is also common enough to do stuff like letting it beat Pyukumuku in my testing. Then there's SD Multi-Attack, a deceptively powerful move that nukes stuff like Mew. Next up is Arcanine, a Fairy answer as well as being able to take on Golisopod (no I'm not joking), Crustle and Scarf Excadrill. Finally there's the one and only CBDarm, who covers just about everything else. Threats to the team include potentially Sylveon, but other than that is pretty groovy.

Now that I'm not sucking hard at it, I gotta say this meta's probably about as enjoyable as Gen 7, which is saying a lot since that's one of the few metas I could still stomach by the late stages of USUM. It's pretty refreshing having a 1v1 meta without any crazy gimmicks for the first time in a while, and the culled dex is definitely a shake-up. There's honestly nothing that stands out to me as super broken right now: Maybe arguments could be made for Mimikyu and Mew, but even those aren't as insufferable as I once thought they would be.
 
Instead of banning Mew, would it be reasonable to ban Imprison? I know that normally it is preferable to ban the Pokemon instead a specific move it abuses, but you could argue that Imprison is the problem in this circumstance.

Also, another filler option with Mew is Encore. Encore can punish Substitute users, make Trick users take their Choice Item back with prediction, and block opponent's Encore after using Imprison.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top