Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Le Creme Brule

riding the wave to the land of dreams
is a Pre-Contributor
Sorry for double post

Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-

:mew: Mew

:mimikyu: Mimikyu

:dragapult: Dragapult

:Dracovish: Dracovish

:Golisopod: Golisopod

:Corviknight: Corviknight

:Whimsicott: Whimsicott

:Excadrill: Excadrill

:Darmanitan-Galar: Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B

:Crustle: Crustle

:Haxorus: Haxorus

:Indeedee: Indeedee-F

:durant: Durant

:sylveon: Sylveon

:duraludon: Duraludon

:reuniclus: Reuniclus

:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl

:cinderace: Cinderace

:gastrodon: Gastrodon

:aegislash: Aegislash

:rotom-mow: Rotom Mow

:rotom-wash: Rotom Wash

:rotom-heat: Rotom Heat

:corsola-galar: Corsola-G

:hydreigon: Hydreigon

:tyranitar: Tyranitar

:silvally: Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-

:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn

:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr

:dracozolt: Dracozolt

:weezing-galar: Weezing-G

:bewear: Bewear

:type-null: Type: Null

:togekiss:Togekiss

:inteleon:Inteleon

:rillaboom: Rillaboom

:centiskorch: Centiskorch

:eiscue: Eiscue

:goodra: Goodra

:arcanine: Arcanine

:dubwool: Dubwool

:snorlax: Snorlax

:drampa: Drampa

:toxtricity: Toxtricity

:kommo-o: Kommo-o

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Sorry for double post

Prototype VR (we’ve had a few days to see how this meta has turned out)
Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-
Mew
Mimikyu
Dragapult
Dracovish
Golisopod
Corviknight
Whimsicott
Excadrill
Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B
Crustle
Haxorus
Indeedee
Durant
Sylveon
Duraludon
Reuniclus
Grimmsnarl
Cinderace
Gastrodon
Aegislash
Rotom Mow
Rotom Wash
Rotom Heat
Corsola
Hydreigon
Tyranitar
Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-
Ferrothorn
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Weezing
Bewear
Type: Null
Togekiss
Inteleon
Rillaboom
Centiskorch
Eiscue
Goodra

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
A few questions/comments about this VR:

-Why did you put Golisopod so high, above Durant and alongside the likes of Mew and Dragapult nonetheless? Haven't seen it a whole lot on ladder

-On a similar note, what's so crazy about Silvally? I've heard you say stuff about how unpredictable it is in the 1v1 room but I haven't really seen it on ladder, like, at all. I would love to believe its at least B-tier viable in some format now but I need some more tangible evidence, especially seeing as you put it above Type:Null which imo is a very scary pick

-This is nitpicking but you might wanna specify Corsola and Weezing are their Galarian forms like you did for Darmanitan

As for things I'd change: Rank Indeedee-Female separately somewhere, perhaps a bit below the male variant. Its slower and weaker, but the extra bulk can help it out in some match-ups like VS Dracozolt and it generally can still take out the same things. Also raise Type:Null, even without Confide and Return it's still insanely hard to break, Shadow Claw is a dank tech on it to beat Ghosts not named Corsola-Galar it now has the room for.
 

Le Creme Brule

riding the wave to the land of dreams
is a Pre-Contributor
A few questions/comments about this VR:

-Why did you put Golisopod so high, above Durant and alongside the likes of Mew and Dragapult nonetheless? Haven't seen it a whole lot on ladder

-On a similar note, what's so crazy about Silvally? I've heard you say stuff about how unpredictable it is in the 1v1 room but I haven't really seen it on ladder, like, at all. I would love to believe its at least B-tier viable in some format now but I need some more tangible evidence, especially seeing as you put it above Type:Null which imo is a very scary pick

-This is nitpicking but you might wanna specify Corsola and Weezing are their Galarian forms like you did for Darmanitan

As for things I'd change: Rank Indeedee-Female separately somewhere, perhaps a bit below the male variant. Its slower and weaker, but the extra bulk can help it out in some match-ups like VS Dracozolt and it generally can still take out the same things. Also raise Type:Null, even without Confide and Return it's still insanely hard to break, Shadow Claw is a dank tech on it to beat Ghosts not named Corsola-Galar it now has the room for.
Silvally’s high base stat total of 570 makes it very strong along with its ability be any type it wants, and it’s movepool allows it to be very versatile, along with the Multi attack buff.

Golisopod is incredibly strong against the top pokemon rn such as Mew Darmanitan, dracovish, Excadrill, and Whimsicott. It’s high physical attack and bulk allows it to be a great life orb attacker with a good number of move options with the addition of close combat.
 

LRXC

formerly LittleRunnerXC
Yung Dramps

Yeah the fact that Silvally got a buffed Multi Attack move, and can be ANY type it wants, will make it a huge threat in tour play. Furthermore, with base 95's across the board, it will be a very hard to predict mon. I don't really know what types or sets will be good yet, but I believe it will become one of those mons where there isn't a standard set. Thats what'll make it good
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Silvally’s high base stat total of 570 makes it very strong along with its ability be any type it wants, and it’s movepool allows it to be very versatile, along with the Multi attack buff.

Golisopod is incredibly strong against the top pokemon rn such as Mew Darmanitan, dracovish, Excadrill, and Whimsicott. It’s high physical attack and bulk allows it to be a great life orb attacker with a good number of move options with the addition of close combat.
Yung Dramps

Yeah the fact that Silvally got a buffed Multi Attack move, and can be ANY type it wants, will make it a huge threat in tour play. Furthermore, with base 95's across the board, it will be a very hard to predict mon. I don't really know what types or sets will be good yet, but I believe it will become one of those mons where there isn't a standard set. Thats what'll make it good
Truth be told, I'm still skeptical. Guess I'm so used to seeing my baby Arceus being condemned to bottom of the barrel tiers like ZU, but aside from the Multi-Attack buff the issues of middling stats and coverage still exist. It was terrible last gen, and even now with a culled Pokedex I'm not holding my breath.
 

Alakazam

He Laughed.
is a Community Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Sorry for double post

Prototype VR (we’ve had a few days to see how this meta has turned out)
Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-
Mew
Mimikyu
Dragapult
Dracovish
Golisopod
Corviknight
Whimsicott
Excadrill
Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B
Crustle
Haxorus
Indeedee-F
Durant
Sylveon
Duraludon
Reuniclus
Grimmsnarl
Cinderace
Gastrodon
Aegislash
Rotom Mow
Rotom Wash
Rotom Heat
Corsola-G
Hydreigon
Tyranitar
Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-
Ferrothorn
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Weezing-G
Bewear
Type: Null
Togekiss
Inteleon
Rillaboom
Centiskorch
Eiscue
Goodra

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
missing Arcanine, toxicitry, dubwool, drampa, and snorlax.

also, if anyone can make kommo-o work, that would be cool, but its gonna again be super weak to the top tier threats, but also lost a lot of other threats in general as well.
 
missing Arcanine, toxicitry, dubwool, drampa, and snorlax.

also, if anyone can make kommo-o work, that would be cool, but its gonna again be super weak to the top tier threats, but also lost a lot of other threats in general as well.
About Kommo-o, Yech talked about a haban set with ID/bulk up set with noble roar, but this is my personal one:
Kommo-o @ Haban Berry
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Aura Sphere
- Taunt

Haban enables it to beat a bunch of the dragons in the tier, wuch as dragapult, haxorus and dracovish.
I opted for special instead of physical, mainly because clanging scales go through sub and that most bulky mons run physical defense.
 
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Le Creme Brule

riding the wave to the land of dreams
is a Pre-Contributor
Kommo-o @ Haban Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 92 HP / 180 Atk / 208 SpD / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Poison Jab
- Taunt
- Close Combat

My personal set
Lives band hax outrage and Whimsicott moonblast
Outspeeds dubwool to provent the Cotton Guard
 

zio

everything is funny in retrospect
is a Tiering Contributor
Sorry for double post

Prototype VR (we’ve had a few days to see how this meta has turned out)
Tier 1: (no particular order) about S to A-
Mew
Mimikyu
Dragapult
Dracovish
Golisopod
Corviknight
Whimsicott
Excadrill
Darmanitan-G

Tier 2: (no particular order) about like B+ to B
Crustle
Haxorus
Indeedee-F
Durant
Sylveon
Duraludon
Reuniclus
Grimmsnarl
Cinderace
Gastrodon
Aegislash
Rotom Mow
Rotom Wash
Rotom Heat
Corsola-G
Hydreigon
Tyranitar
Silvally

Tier 3: (no particular order) about B- to C or C-
Ferrothorn
Conkeldurr
Dracozolt
Weezing-G
Bewear
Type: Null
Togekiss
Inteleon
Rillaboom
Centiskorch
Eiscue
Goodra
Arcanine
Dubwool
Snorlax
Drampa
Toxtricity
Kommo-o

This is based off of my experience with the meta based on the tournament as well as ladder games I’ve played and watched. Tell me if I’m missing anything, or if something should be obviously moved
While I agree for the most part I do have a few things to add. Imo Excadrill is not a top tier pick. It is around Haxorous for me. I laddered a massive amount yesterday with my alt bagel bang and Excadrill does not perform on the same level as most other things on that list. It would probably be around a B+ for me. I do agree that Golisopod is being slept on. Aegislash is also probably a A or A-
 

LRXC

formerly LittleRunnerXC
missing Arcanine, toxicitry, dubwool, drampa, and snorlax.

also, if anyone can make kommo-o work, that would be cool, but its gonna again be super weak to the top tier threats, but also lost a lot of other threats in general as well.
Why Drampa? What does it have over other Dragon types like Dragapult, Haxorus, Goodra, Dracovish, Hydreigon, Duraludon... basically the other notable dragon types?

Just curious, not making a statement that it is unviable
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
I think Hippowdon is worthy of mention, its niche over other Ground-types like Rhyperior and Excadrill is that it gets coverage options like Crunch for Dragapult and Thunder Fang for Gyarados, plus it has enough bulk to be EV'd to take attacks like Specs Dragapult's Hydro Pump
 
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Peary

Drip Haver
I wholeheartedly don't believe it should be a mechanic of the game that is to blame for a meta becoming unfavorable in the eyes of the people. It is very important for people to understand that Dynamaxing isn't a tangible element that you can simply remove like an individual pokemon or item or whatever, but rather the entire concept of something, akin to all abilities, all items, all moves, etc. Removing it would essentially be removing part of what makes a pokemon... a pokemon.

Gen 1 -> Gen 2: Items and Spikes enter the metagame, punishing switchins while enabling pokemon to be sustainable at the same time.
Gen 2 -> Gen 3: Abilities and Natures enter the metagame and suddenly pokemon are no longer capable of having 252 in all 6 stats.
Gen 3 -> Gen 4: The Physical/Special split changes dozens of offensive pokemon, in addition to gamechanging new hazards + removal.
Gen 4 -> Gen 5: Hidden Abilities make dozens of pokemon more viable, in addition to causing the infamous weather wars.
Gen 5 -> Gen 6: Mega Evolutions make a new group of viable pokemon while weathers were nerfed to 5/8 turns.
Gen 6 -> Gen 7: Z-Moves further enable hundreds of pokemon to perform better by means of technique.

Every generation has had some drastic new mechanic that shifted people's basic understanding of competitive pokemon, in addition to multiple incredibly significant elements that introduced major changes to the way that competitive pokemon was played, from Stealth Rock to Scald to Sticky Web and so forth. Stealth Rock, in particular, had a lot of discussion behind it; many points of which I absolutely believe could be applied to the discussion of Dynamaxing, so I spent a lot of time reading through these threads so that you don't have to! (Though you probably still should)

There are a handful of ideologies that can be gleamed from all of these threads and posts that should absolutely be taken into account when considering what constitutes a ban for a pokemon vs any tool used by pokemon:

1. Evaluations cannot come without evidence of the claims made.
  • This means something like usage stats, and just players in general trying to wrap their minds around understanding what the best strategies in the metagame currently are before attempting to make any significant decisions beyond obvious ones like banning the cover legendaries at the start of the generation.
  • The amount of "centralization" something forces upon the meta will always be subjectively drawn by whoever you ask, though it should always at least require the consideration of usage stats to visibly observe with certainty that something is currently dominating the metagame, as otherwise, the argument simply boils down to hearsay from the likes of people who "never had trouble with X", on the consideration that they always happened to be using counters to X, whether knowingly or not.
  • As an example, consider the case of Kyurem-Black, wherein its presence mandated pokemon to run what would nowadays be considered bad sets in order to beat it; the likes of fast + physically defensive Charizard-X + Y, Choice Specs / Fairium physically defensive Primarina + Tapu Fini, etc. With Kyurem-Black gone, the usage of these spreads and items died down, making it evident that Kyurem-Black was a major part of why these bad sets were considered "necessary". It is this kind of observable change with banned aspects that we should be looking for and even predicting will happen given that the hypothetical X element is banned, and whether or not the changes forced upon X's victims are damning enough to warrant a ban.
2. In the debate of creating a "better" metagame as opposed to a "pure" metagame, the latter is less subjective.
  • A very important argument that was prominent in almost all of the Stealth Rock discussion was coming to the conclusion of whether it is a "good" metagame or a "pure" metagame that we should strive for, with the difference between the two being that a "pure" metagame strives to maintain as many of the elements provided while only removing the most egregious cases of something being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, while a "good" metagame is one that is ultimately subjectively agreed upon by a majority of people to be better than what it was previously, even if it means removing something that wasn't necessarily problematic towards the greater metagame.
  • The wording of the general tiering policy framework puts forth notions that "pure" metagames are preferred, though it doesn't necessarily state why that is the case. A few of the posts I linked above argue that this method of handling metas is ideal on account of the fact that banning with the intention of producing a "good" or "better" or "improved" metagame is entirely subjective and may very well lend to the idea that anything can be suspected given enough of an outcry from the community, rather than the provision of any kind of evidence that something truly needs to be removed.
3. Suspect tests and discussions are a means to evaluating why the suspected element was or should be removed.
  • With the understanding set forth by point 2 that only something egregiously harmful to the metagame deserves to be removed, the task of demonstrating those egregious characteristics falls to the side attempting to instigate change within the metagame.
  • Demonstrating something as an element that deserves to be banned is not simply something that can be done by show of support when someone makes a post that you agree with, but rather with rigid evidence that a conclusion can be drawn from.
4. The point of suspect tests and bans is ultimately to lower the number of broken, uncompetitive, and/or unhealthy elements present within the metagame.
  • With a hypothetical Dynamax suspect, it'd be hard to discern qualities that warrant a clear need for suspect, as the main thing we'd be seeing is that the metagame is clearly different without it. Not more balanced, but different. There is no certainty that a no-dynamax metagame would even have less broken aspects than the one we have now. Everything that even comes close to being broken in this meta turns out to be bugged, on account of ingame mechanics functioning differently from how they're implemented on PS.
5. An alternative metagame is a bad idea.
  • With point 4 in mind, an alternative metagame without Dynamax seems like a clear way to discern whether or not the meta would really balance out without it. The problem with this notion is outlined in a few of the links above, regarding the possibility of splitting the community we have down the middle between those who prefer the meta with Dynamax and those who prefer the meta without it.
  • While it does sound idealistic to see how a metagame without Dynamax would play out, that is solely caving in to the idea that there is a problem with Dynamax to begin with, which, if there were, then it should be very clearly discernible by means of evidence.
6. Discerning something as a problem means that there has to be a problem in the metagame.
  • If Dynamax were truly the source of the metagame being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, then there already should have been suspect-worthy pokemon that got to where they were because of their abuse of Dynamax.
  • Not only do there need to be Pokemon in general that are bannable solely because of their abuse of Dynamax, just about every pokemon needs to be capable of sweeping, haxing, or otherwise creating an unfavorable scenario for a large majority of opponents, or at least large enough a group to be deemed as overcentralizing.
7. Discerning problems is a matter of skill.
  • The tiering policy framework does a sufficient job at explaining what skillful play is, on a teambuilding and battling level. With the framework's definition in mind, it comes to us to determine whether or not Dynamax as a mechanic contradicts any part of it, and by how much it does so.
  • When doing this, it is important to differentiate when something is simply a change to how skillful play is carried out, as opposed to when skillful play is actually being punished in the face of unskillful play.
    • An example of a change to skillful play would be the transfer from gen 3 to gen 4, where the newfound presence of Stealth Rock effectively mandated that teams have a defogger or spinner in order to clear them out.
    • An example of skillful play being punished by unskillful play is the use of evasion boosting / accuracy dropping to avoid otherwise game-ending attacks, thus placing the result of the game in the hands of RNG.
Ultimately, Dynamax is a generation-defining feature of the Sword and Shield metagame, much like Stealth Rock was for Diamond and Pearl, Hidden Abilities for Black and White, Mega Evolution for X and Y, and so forth. Removing it would effectively be forfeiting the identity as a Gen 8 metagame and molding it into an OM of itself, rather than abiding by the standards set in place by the new generation.
Straight Facts -
I Agree with everything put into this post, I feel like cutting out Dynamax would be selling Gen 8 competitive short. It's like... imagine if we cut out megas at the beginning of Gen 6? Z-Moves at the beginning of 7? Dynamax is now a central part of the metagame and Gen 8 as a whole, removing it is... quite literally altering the game into something else entirely.

I don't want to play Gen 7.5, I want to play Gen 8. (SARCASM)
 
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zio

everything is funny in retrospect
is a Tiering Contributor
Straight Facts -
I Agree with everything put into this post, I feel like cutting out Dynamax would be selling Gen 8 competitive short. It's like... imagine if we cut out megas at the beginning of Gen 6? Z-Moves at the beginning of 7? Dynamax is now a central part of the metagame and Gen 8 as a whole, removing it is... quite literally altering the game into something else entirely.

I don't want to play Gen 7.5, I want to play Gen 8. (SARCASM)
The argument that the value of an intended mechanic is absolute just based on the fact that it is an intended mechanic is kind of silly. It has already been established that dmax and gmax are a ban-worthy issue, so it should be no different from any other ban. Similar to any banned pokemon, ability, or move dmax is a part of the game susceptible to be removed or restricted. Yes dmax is a very important part of Gen 8, this does not mean it is suddenly exempt from being removed. Specific Mega Stones have been banned in the past. Although, to me the most important factor is that dmax/gmax is not a fun mechanic for 1v1. It does not lead to a entertaining or interesting metagame and instead turns 1v1 into 50v50.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
After some failed experiments that didn't get me far above low ladder, I've finally found something that works and has currently lifted me to 1573 ELO, #23 as of typing.

Darmanitan Sprite
While we've been discussing potential VR placements in the Showdown room, something caught my attention: Silvally potentially being a viable pick. I was skeptical, so I decided to make something for one of its more unconventional-sounding forms: Silvally-Dark. While rather weak, Icy Wind lets it speed control, with the EVs designed to take out Whimsicott with Poison Fang assuming it just clicks Moonblast turn 1. The bad Poisoning effect is also common enough to do stuff like letting it beat Pyukumuku in my testing. Then there's SD Multi-Attack, a deceptively powerful move that nukes stuff like Mew. Next up is Arcanine, a Fairy answer as well as being able to take on Golisopod (no I'm not joking), Crustle and Scarf Excadrill. Finally there's the one and only CBDarm, who covers just about everything else. Threats to the team include potentially Sylveon, but other than that is pretty groovy.

Now that I'm not sucking hard at it, I gotta say this meta's probably about as enjoyable as Gen 7, which is saying a lot since that's one of the few metas I could still stomach by the late stages of USUM. It's pretty refreshing having a 1v1 meta without any crazy gimmicks for the first time in a while, and the culled dex is definitely a shake-up. There's honestly nothing that stands out to me as super broken right now: Maybe arguments could be made for Mimikyu and Mew, but even those aren't as insufferable as I once thought they would be.
 
Instead of banning Mew, would it be reasonable to ban Imprison? I know that normally it is preferable to ban the Pokemon instead a specific move it abuses, but you could argue that Imprison is the problem in this circumstance.

Also, another filler option with Mew is Encore. Encore can punish Substitute users, make Trick users take their Choice Item back with prediction, and block opponent's Encore after using Imprison.
 
Umm, while we're all debating about Mew, i think Sableye is inherently more broken.
In this meta, with the removal of z-moves, trick has become incredibly more useful, sableye can abuse this along with trick to essentially beat any mon it can live a hit from (barring dark types).
While it can struggle with mons with choice items as well, it can still beat mons that have low pp on the move they use (ex: Banded Pyro Ball Cinderace).
But, Sableye beats 100% of the time any mon with a choice item by running substitute with disable.

So two of its sets can destroy a large majority of the metagame:
Scarf trick, as well as Sub+Encore+Disable with roseli berri.


Out of AllFourtyOne's "VR", it beats all of the entrys with one of its two sets except dark types and dual stab running Sylveon (Honestly will become a thing)
This puts an incredible strain on teambuilding, forcing the usage of a dark type or some other mon that can deal with it.

I'd like to hear different opinions on this matter.
 

Rosa

twist
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Instead of banning Mew, would it be reasonable to ban Imprison? I know that normally it is preferable to ban the Pokemon instead a specific move it abuses, but you could argue that Imprison is the problem in this circumstance.

Also, another filler option with Mew is Encore. Encore can punish Substitute users, make Trick users take their Choice Item back with prediction, and block opponent's Encore after using Imprison.
Move bans should only be considered when the move itself is creating either a broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy result on nearly everything that learns it.

In this instance, it isn't simply Imprison itself that is breaking Mew, but rather the combination of Imprison + Transform in order to force the opponent into Struggling themselves to death.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing for an Imprison + Transform ban, either, as this is a combination that has already existed in the past 5 generations (Smeargle) and has generally been shown not to be overbearing, with the exception of Smeargle's abuse of older gen Sleep mechanics.

Instead, Mew is the sole focus for a potential ban/suspect in this instance, on account of its usage of these moves AND its very competent 600 BST that enables it to outspeed foes and/or withstand attacks, both of which enable the strategy to be viable in the first place. Additionally, Mew is so versatile that it isn't just limited to the Imprison + Transform strategy, either. It has perfectly solid offensive stats and a plethora of attacks and setup that allow it to make use of several offensive strategies. I personally find Choice Band to be the best at covering mostly everything that threatens the Imprison + Transform set's weaknesses.
Umm, while we're all debating about Mew, i think Sableye is inherently more broken.
In this meta, with the removal of z-moves, trick has become incredibly more useful, sableye can abuse this along with trick to essentially beat any mon it can live a hit from (barring dark types).
While it can struggle with mons with choice items as well, it can still beat mons that have low pp on the move they use (ex: Banded Pyro Ball Cinderace).
But, Sableye beats 100% of the time any mon with a choice item by running substitute with disable.

So two of its sets can destroy a large majority of the metagame:
Scarf trick, as well as Sub+Encore+Disable with roseli berri.


Out of AllFourtyOne's "VR", it beats all of the entrys with one of its two sets except dark types and dual stab running Sylveon (Honestly will become a thing)
This puts an incredible strain on teambuilding, forcing the usage of a dark type or some other mon that can deal with it.

I'd like to hear different opinions on this matter.
I absolutely agree that Sableye is a huge threat, though for the time being, I believe we need to see further usage of it before coming to a conclusion, as it (among many other things) is still a very recent development.

That said, I do believe that Trick/Switcheroo + Choice items (for brevity's sake I'll just say Trick from now on) in general are mostly the inherent problem at hand, rather than just Sableye. I bring this up because, with Dynamax banned, we are now in the only generation of 1v1 to not have any means of blocking Trick beyond using Sticky Hold or bait items like Black Sludge.

Unlike the case of Imprison I mentioned above, Trick is absolutely abusable on nearly everything that gets it, even if on some pokemon like Cofagrigus, you'd only be using it for the sake of effectively deleting stall, much to the same effect of Perish Song when it was allowed.

The difference here, however, is that stall is not forced to get a OHKO against Trick users in the same way they were required to quickly KO Perish Song users, since the battle is actually allowed to continue until a pokemon drops to 0% HP, giving the stallers plenty more opportunities to KO the opponent before it's too late, assuming they even have a move to KO with.

In my opinion, it is absolutely Trick at fault here, rather than particular users, as the combination of Trick/Switcheroo + Choice items alone is enough to completely dismantle many stall strategies available to us right now. Added bulk to withstand attacks or the power to KO foes after Tricking them is just the icing on the cake.

With regards to Sableye, as far as things stand in the present, I do believe it is worth looking into as a potential suspect, but only if we look into Trick as a whole first, since it would be a massive waste of time to have to resuspect Sableye if Trick were banned after the fact, though it would really depend on whether Encore + Disable on its own is still enough to ban Sableye.
 
I have found Galarian Weezing with Levitate to be great fun as most people do not realize it is not running Neutralizing Gas until they try to use a Ground move. Of Course Mold Breaker Excadrill and Haxorus with Earthquake still kill me. I can usually one shot Dracovish with Weezing-G with Choice Specs on. Toxictricity with Punk Rock, Choice Specs, and Boomburt or Overdrive is also great fun!!

That Imprison plus Transform Mew is really annoying. I just forfeit when I see a Mew now.

EDIT: Well, I managed to beat one of those stupid Mews with a Garbodor no less. A Choice Banded Gunk Shot poisoned the Mew, the Mew then did their Imprison plus Transform thing but the poison hurt them enough to where Struggle could finish them off.
 
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Gunk Shot really is an amazing move!!

Lower accuracy yes, but it sure is awesome when it hits!! My Garbodor is a trash flinging machine! He may not always hit with it but when he does the enemy gets a used diaper coated in rotting magikarp carcasses doused in used motor oil to the face!!

I miss the Gen Six Gunk Shot animation though...IT'S GARBAGE DAY!!!
 

Rosa

twist
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Gunk Shot really is an amazing move!!

Lower accuracy yes, but it sure is awesome when it hits!! My Garbodor is a trash flinging machine! He may not always hit with it but when he does the enemy gets a used diaper coated in rotting magikarp carcasses doused in used motor oil to the face!!

I miss the Gen Six Gunk Shot animation though...IT'S GARBAGE DAY!!!
Hi, I'm glad you're having fun, but I'm going to have to ask you to dial it back with posting every random thought you have here. While the Metagame Discussion thread doesn't necessarily have a set direction beyond what the title itself implies, you should at least keep posts to the point of being made for 1v1-pertinent things you want to gather attention for, like a fun pokemon you've been trying out or showcasing a whole team you've been seeing success with on ladder.
 

Le Creme Brule

riding the wave to the land of dreams
is a Pre-Contributor
Sylveon @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Quick Attack

Quick Attack Sylveon is quite fun!
It’s able to dodge around sturdy as well as clean up a few matchups. It’s able to eat Adamant Scarf Haxorus Iron Tail and Adamant Scarf darm iron head and KO both in return. In addition, mystical fire deals with the pesky ferrothorn.
 
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1576034762972.png

Appletun is a big boi

I made a little post on our friend here on a different thread but since that thread is a ghost town and this one is more lively, I might as well share the set:

Mike (Appletun) (M) @ Haban Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Apple Acid
- Substitute / Leech Seed / [Filler?]

Appletun has to be one of the most consistent checks to Dracovish available, which is a huge plus. Haban Berry also lets him deal with Dracozolt, Dragapult, Mold Breaker Haxorus (not Unnerve), and Hydreigon. Apple Acid is godlike and can turn some 3HKOs into 2HKOs (Sableye). It works well with Recover so he can stay healthy while the foe's SpDef keeps decreasing. You'll be clicking Draco Meteor a lot against the dragons I mentioned and it is also a great finisher for slower fights.

Thick Fat is the preferred ability here because it helps vs. Ice and it effectively adds a resistance to Fire. I have not really tested Ripen very much yet but it will probably end up being a meme set if anything (just use Thick Fat, he is better off using it).

In the end I feel like this will be niche because a handful of its bad matchups are very common (Mew, Darmanitan-G, Mimikyu, Togekiss), but he is still fair against more defensive teams and many of the dragons you will encounter.

also M I K E
 

Kaif

Banned deucer.
I just played a 1v1 match and my Aegislash knocked out the opposing Haxorus with Steel Beam. But by using that move it KOed itself and I lost the match. Has that always been the case/purpose or am I just being dumb? If that's not the case, it should maybe be fixed.

Here's the replay for proof
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1027722285
yes thats how it works, its the same mechanic like Mind Blown blacephalon from sm
 

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